02-01-09 01:00 PM
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  1. ksat's Avatar
    Case: Vendor XYZ walks into a different meeting room every week and makes a presentation on his latest cool phone. Each carrier loves his new phone - but, Carrier A will buy 1 million phones but wants Wifi, Carrier B wants CDMA and aGPS and will order 2 million, Carrier C wants EDGE and GPS and will buy 5 million... Is this out of line?

    What about the case where Carrier B wants a new touch screen phone and goes to Vendor XYZ and says "hey guys - this is what we want and here are the specs....can you make it?" Guess what the Vendor is going to say??? "Absolutely we can! Anything you want Carrier B! Anything!"

    You think that's out of line? I sure don't and I would bet that this happens more often that any of us believe. I happen to believe this is what Verizon does with their BB phones...partially. I think the relationship between phone vendor and carrier engineers/R&D is so strong that this could happen quite easily. And, I bet the question is also asked - "do you want WiFi with that?" Their answer? "Nah - these are Blackberries...we require a data plan, the consumer doesn't need WiFi."

    This is the basis... Verizon REQUIRES their Blackberries to have a data plan associated with it - won't sell them any other way. Therefore, no Wifi (another means of receiving data - hence, more money for VZW) for BlackBerries. Verizon does NOT require Windows Mobile phones to have a data plan - so, the WiFi option is there.

    Pretty easy to understand...don't you think?
    01-27-09 06:04 PM
  2. vatothe0's Avatar
    Actually the newest PDA's DO require a data plan and ALL have wifi.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    01-27-09 06:12 PM
  3. briankeith513's Avatar
    Case: Vendor XYZ walks into a different meeting room every week and makes a presentation on his latest cool phone. Each carrier loves his new phone - but, Carrier A will buy 1 million phones but wants Wifi, Carrier B wants CDMA and aGPS and will order 2 million, Carrier C wants EDGE and GPS and will buy 5 million... Is this out of line?

    What about the case where Carrier B wants a new touch screen phone and goes to Vendor XYZ and says "hey guys - this is what we want and here are the specs....can you make it?" Guess what the Vendor is going to say??? "Absolutely we can! Anything you want Carrier B! Anything!"

    You think that's out of line? I sure don't and I would bet that this happens more often that any of us believe. I happen to believe this is what Verizon does with their BB phones...partially. I think the relationship between phone vendor and carrier engineers/R&D is so strong that this could happen quite easily. And, I bet the question is also asked - "do you want WiFi with that?" Their answer? "Nah - these are Blackberries...we require a data plan, the consumer doesn't need WiFi."

    This is the basis... Verizon REQUIRES their Blackberries to have a data plan associated with it - won't sell them any other way. Therefore, no Wifi (another means of receiving data - hence, more money for VZW) for BlackBerries. Verizon does NOT require Windows Mobile phones to have a data plan - so, the WiFi option is there.

    Pretty easy to understand...don't you think?
    This is pretty to understand. This is what I see from your post. 1. You made up scenarios which are slightly possible, and not based on any proof. 2. Then, you posted something that is not true at all. All smartphones from Verizon require data plans. All smartphones require data plans, but none of the blackberries that are cdma have wifi. Again, your money theory is squashed.

    What I understand is that, unfortunately, posters like you will mix speculation and lies nicely and post it, and mislead others.

    Anyone that needs proof, you can contact vzw about this, try to activate any smartphone without a data plan and see what happens, or simply go to vzw.com select a smartphone like the Samsung Omnia, pick a voice plan, and the next step, it forces you to pick on of 2 smartphone data plans.
    Last edited by briankeith513; 01-27-09 at 06:36 PM.
    01-27-09 06:22 PM
  4. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    It's frustrating that even when an iDEN phone can have WiFi, the CDMA's can't.
    Again - it is a technology & size issue. None of the GSM 83XX devices have WiFi and GPS. It is one or the other. So the thought that carriers have powerful input into what the manufacturers make is ludicrous.

    Here are your options, Carrier A, S, T & V. You can have your choice of phone, browser, backlighting, SMS, MMS, camera, logo and a choice of either GPS or WiFi.

    • Carrier A chooses all of the above with GPS.
    • Carrier S chooses all of the above with GPS, as it is needed with their TV option, but foregoes the MMS option.
    • Carrier T chooses all of the above with WiFi, knowing their network isn'a as vast as A or V.
    • Carrier V chooses all of the above with GPS, knowing their network is wide enough to cover most of the nation and fast enough to compete with most WiFi connections.


    That is the input the carriers have and nothing more - unless it is a device like the Sidekick or VZW Coupe.

    Actually the newest PDA's DO require a data plan and ALL have wifi.
    VZW does require data plans with ALL of their smartphones, as stated by vatothe0 here. If you can't stomach that, check with AT&T or T-Mo, although it is rumored that both of these carriers will be requiring them soon, as well.

    In fact, trying to order a BlackBerry or WinMo device online with AT&T without a data plan will cause the order to error out.
    01-27-09 06:53 PM
  5. vatothe0's Avatar
    I suppose I should clarify my post as well.

    The paid data plan requiement only applies to PDA's released after Nov 14th 2008 which currently includes the Touch Pro, Omnia, and Saga. All 3 of these have wifi.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    01-27-09 08:00 PM
  6. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    some of u ppl seem to speak as if you enjoy the idea of a required data plan. Comments like if u can't stomachit, try AT&T, or deal with it, seem like an odd idea considering that this actually means that.... U PAY MORE!!!

    I was never to big on fighting the idea of eliminting wifi and whether it was malitious or not. I only expressed a pattern. The fact that GPS is locked down and the fact that a data plan is REQUIRED is irefutable to the fact that its all about money with these ppl and not about good business practices.

    I just cant understand the defense of Verizon when their practices are the way they are! It just dosn't make sense unless you work for them and have a vested interest in their profits!
    01-27-09 10:02 PM
  7. ksat's Avatar
    This is pretty to understand. This is what I see from your post. 1. You made up scenarios which are slightly possible, and not based on any proof. 2. Then, you posted something that is not true at all. All smartphones from Verizon require data plans. All smartphones require data plans, but none of the blackberries that are cdma have wifi. Again, your money theory is squashed.

    What I understand is that, unfortunately, posters like you will mix speculation and lies nicely and post it, and mislead others.

    Anyone that needs proof, you can contact vzw about this, try to activate any smartphone without a data plan and see what happens, or simply go to vzw.com select a smartphone like the Samsung Omnia, pick a voice plan, and the next step, it forces you to pick on of 2 smartphone data plans.
    You are exactly correct... I did make up these scenarios because I don't work in Verizon R&D or Product Development. Do you?? If you do, I'd like to hear first hand how VZW is making these decisions. If you don't, then everything you are saying is also simple speculation.

    I will also give you the benefit of the doubt that all new smartphones REQUIRE a data package. If they do, this further emphasizes my thoughts about Verizon's need to nickle and dime each customer to death! Why else would the company FORCE the need for a plan that a device with WiFi doesn't regularly need??
    01-28-09 09:19 AM
  8. vatothe0's Avatar
    They aren't nickle and diming anyone. If you don't want a data plan, don't buy a phone that requires one.

    How hard is that?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    01-28-09 09:32 AM
  9. briankeith513's Avatar
    You are exactly correct... I did make up these scenarios because I don't work in Verizon R&D or Product Development. Do you?? If you do, I'd like to hear first hand how VZW is making these decisions. If you don't, then everything you are saying is also simple speculation.

    I will also give you the benefit of the doubt that all new smartphones REQUIRE a data package. If they do, this further emphasizes my thoughts about Verizon's need to nickle and dime each customer to death! Why else would the company FORCE the need for a plan that a device with WiFi doesn't regularly need??
    Yes, I know I am correct, and I never said that I work in Verizon R&D, which is why I didn't make up a scenario like you chose to do. If you notice, I also didn't add in a lie like you did about only blackberries requiring data plans. I just chose to add facts:

    As others have said, their is not one single cdma blackberry for any carrier, not just Verizon that has wifi? The only one is the Iden Blackberry Curve, that was just released. This is fact. If it were Verizon that asked for RIM not to include wifi, why doesn't Sprint's, Alltel's or any other cdma carrier's 8330, 8130, or 8830 have wifi?

    Second, if Verizon didn't want wifi, why do they allow it on their winmo devices?

    Verizon requires a data plan whether your phone has wifi or not, so it's not a money issue.

    However, your point here,
    "Why else would the company FORCE the need for a plan that a device with WiFi doesn't regularly need??" That actually has some validity, if I purchase a smartphone with wifi access, why can I not just use wifi, and not have a data plan? I agree with that. However, these are the policies, and some of the other wireless companies are rumored to follow suit.
    01-28-09 09:51 AM
  10. ksat's Avatar
    They aren't nickle and diming anyone. If you don't want a data plan, don't buy a phone that requires one.

    How hard is that?
    That's easy... because I don't want to carry two devices. Why not buy a device that is both a phone AND a PDA - novel idea, huh? The carrier sees that as well and takes advantage of the fact and adds charges for it.
    01-28-09 09:59 AM
  11. ksat's Avatar
    Yes, I know I am correct, and I never said that I work in Verizon R&D, which is why I didn't make up a scenario like you chose to do. If you notice, I also didn't add in a lie like you did about only blackberries requiring data plans. I just chose to add facts:

    As others have said, their is not one single cdma blackberry for any carrier, not just Verizon that has wifi? The only one is the Iden Blackberry Curve, that was just released. This is fact. If it were Verizon that asked for RIM not to include wifi, why doesn't Sprint's, Alltel's or any other cdma carrier's 8330, 8130, or 8830 have wifi?

    Second, if Verizon didn't want wifi, why do they allow it on their winmo devices?

    Verizon requires a data plan whether your phone has wifi or not, so it's not a money issue.

    However, your point here,
    "Why else would the company FORCE the need for a plan that a device with WiFi doesn't regularly need??" That actually has some validity, if I purchase a smartphone with wifi access, why can I not just use wifi, and not have a data plan? I agree with that. However, these are the policies, and some of the other wireless companies are rumored to follow suit.
    Sorry - but, my statement was not a lie. When I purchased my 8830, I also had the option of going with a Treo or HTC WinMo device that I wasn't required to have a data plan for. I haven't been looking for a new device and don't really care for except for a new BlackBerry - so, I have no idea what the data plan requirements are for.

    Regardless, my opinion still stands that because they are charging additional for a REQUIRED service on a device with WiFi is not truly fair for the consumer. It's good for VZW who profits from it - but, it's bad for the consumers. And, I still believe (read: it's my opinion) that Verizon opts to order BB's w/o WiFi.

    Until either one of us hears from the top, no one will ever know the FACTS other than what phones we currently see on the market. We can only make a few assumptions from that information ...
    01-28-09 10:07 AM
  12. briankeith513's Avatar
    Sorry - but, my statement was not a lie. When I purchased my 8830, I also had the option of going with a Treo or HTC WinMo device that I wasn't required to have a data plan for. I haven't been looking for a new device and don't really care for except for a new BlackBerry - so, I have no idea what the data plan requirements are for. Ok, your statement wasn't a lie, its just not the truth.

    Regardless, my opinion still stands that because they are charging additional for a REQUIRED service on a device with WiFi is not truly fair for the consumer. It's good for VZW who profits from it - but, it's bad for the consumers. This, I definitely agree with, but like I said, other carriers are rumored to do the same thing, and it's a business, and its a take it or leave it kind of thing.

    And, I still believe (read: it's my opinion) that Verizon opts to order BB's w/o WiFi. Hey, its fine, if you choose to believe that Verizon opts to order BB w/o wifi, although no other CDMA carrier has a BB with wifi(except for the IDEN Curve), then that's on you(fact #1), And if you choose to believe that Verizon opts to order BB's w/o wifi, although they offer winmo devices with wifi, then again, that's on you.(fact #2) That reasoning makes no sense to me whatsoever, but hey, it's an opinion and you are entitled to it. If Verizon didn't require data on a phone that they offered with wifi, but did require it on phones that they offered without wifi, then what you believe would make some sense. However, the fact that Verizon requires a data plan on all of their smartphones, regardless of whether it requires data or not, discredits the notion that they are removing/or requesting blackberries w/o wifi to make you pay for a data plan.

    Until either one of us hears from the top, no one will ever know the FACTS other than what phones we currently see on the market. We can only make a few assumptions from that information. Actually, neither of us needs to hear from the top that there is no CDMA 8830, 8130, or 8830 for any carrier at all. We also don't need to hear from the top that greed wouldn't seem like a motive for not offering wifi on a blackberry when you have to pay for data regardless. Those are facts. Also, Verizon offers wifi on winmo devices that are also required to have the data plan, so why single out blackberry?

    No offense, but the only thing you have said that seems valid based on anything at all is that you feel that VZW shouldn't require data, especially on devices with wifi, however, that's not even the topic of this thread.
    01-28-09 11:06 AM
  13. vatothe0's Avatar
    That's easy... because I don't want to carry two devices. Why not buy a device that is both a phone AND a PDA - novel idea, huh? The carrier sees that as well and takes advantage of the fact and adds charges for it.
    So buy one of the pda's Verizon offers that don't require a data plan.
    Are you intentionally ignoring facts or just ignorant of them?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    01-28-09 11:54 AM
  14. Arreat's Avatar
    some of u ppl seem to speak as if you enjoy the idea of a required data plan. Comments like if u can't stomachit, try AT&T, or deal with it, seem like an odd idea considering that this actually means that.... U PAY MORE!!!

    I was never to big on fighting the idea of eliminating wifi and whether it was malitious or not. I only expressed a pattern. The fact that GPS is locked down and the fact that a data plan is REQUIRED is irrefutable to the fact that its all about money with these ppl and not about good business practices.

    I just cant understand the defense of Verizon when their practices are the way they are! It just dosn't make sense unless you work for them and have a vested interest in their profits!
    If you're going to make any argument you should really know the basics....Like the GPS has been unlocked for the past 5 months on all blackberries. Why would you care that a data plan is REQUIRED, if you're buying the phone they told you that at the beginning before you ever made a purchase and you signed a contract.
    01-28-09 11:55 AM
  15. dlenn845's Avatar
    I have a vzw BB curve and have no complaints, if I were to want WiFi it would be because I wanted to use WiFi to make calls where cell reception is poor or non-existant as a T-Mobile user can. I will bet money that VZW will not consider that feature for the foreseeable future.

    I am surprised that a majority of the devices that offer WiFi don't have GPS, I thought that was a requirement at least in the US for cell 911 as of a year or two ago...
    01-28-09 12:41 PM
  16. ksat's Avatar
    So buy one of the pda's Verizon offers that don't require a data plan.
    Are you intentionally ignoring facts or just ignorant of them?

    Wow - you are bold in that statement - or, you didn't read what BrianKeith513 wrote:


    Verizon requires a data plan whether your phone has wifi or not, so it's not a money issue.
    According to him, all PDA phone's require a data plan. I like my BlackBerry - but, I would like it much better with WiFi.
    Last edited by ksat; 01-28-09 at 01:52 PM.
    01-28-09 01:44 PM
  17. ksat's Avatar
    If you're going to make any argument you should really know the basics....Like the GPS has been unlocked for the past 5 months on all blackberries. Why would you care that a data plan is REQUIRED, if you're buying the phone they told you that at the beginning before you ever made a purchase and you signed a contract.

    Clarification to your statement - "Like the GPS has been unlocked for the past 5 months on all blackberries."

    This is not true! The 8830 running the official OS supported by Verizon (OS 4.2) has a GPS that is still "locked" for all means and purposes. You are forced to upgrade to a non-Verizon OS in order to take advantage of the seemingly unlocked GPS. And, I don't think time passes that quickly...It's only been about 2 months if I recall.

    Back on topic...
    01-28-09 01:48 PM
  18. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    And guess what, folks. Your BlackBerry has a-GPS, which means assisted GPS. It gets assistance from your wireless network and is more accurate & faster than non-assisted GPS, using tower triangulation & carrier switch database information to help locate you. But a-GPS is also data intensive & requires database access, which the carrier would have to pay for.

    Some a-GPS units can fall back on non-assist, while some cannot. Many phones cannot fall back, which means data & database charges.

    The dual mode a-GPS units cost considerably more than the single mode units.

    What does this tell me? A lot, actually.

    In this competitive industry where cost is everything, many manufacturers do not use the dual mode a-GPS in their devices. If a carrier is given an option, they tend to order the less costly option. In some cases, one model of phone may have one solution in one batch & another in a subsequent batch, depending on availability.

    So, with a single mode unit, the carrier's costs rise with unrestricted use. They can choose to allow access & spread the cost out to all customers, making their price uncompetitive. Or they can choose to allow access to a limited number of apps & charge for those. With 4.5, RIM includes database access for BBMaps with BIS/BES service, so there is no fee. VZW (and other carriers) also offer a fee-based branded third party apps, like VZNavigator.

    With a dual mode device, they can choose to allow open non-assisted access, but restrict assisted to apps they can charge for or can provide at no charge.

    With mixed hardware devices, they will tend to go with the most restrictive option, else they end up having to explain why your phone can't do something that your friend's identical model can. This would open up a whole can of worms with costly exchanges for devices which may or may not do what your friend's device can do. Then there is the tech support nightmare that goes along with it.

    BlackBerry 8330 units are mostly single mode, with a small percentage having dual mode a-GPS functionality.

    There have been nightmare stories where someone went into a roaming area with their unlocked dual mode devices where they never accessed data services, but did use GPS and racked up $1000 worth of legitimate data charges.

    Your "unlimited data plan" is priced based on expected average data usage. Can you imagine getting huge data bills while on that plan? Customer dissatisfaction would go through the roof. An alternative would be to spread the costs across all users. Your $80 bill might then be something like $105 with this, again making your carrier uncompetitive.

    Do you want full GPS capability? Fine, but stop blaming the carrier. Instead, let your carrier & manufacturers know you'd be willing to cough up more money for your phone and data charges. Be ready for large data charges for open a-GPS access. Open your wallet without demanding others subsidize what you think you want.

    Or quit being a cheapskate & cough up the money for a GPS puck. CB sells a nice one from Freedom.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    01-28-09 06:34 PM
  19. scurvydlicious's Avatar
    some of u ppl seem to speak as if you enjoy the idea of a required data plan. Comments like if u can't stomachit, try AT&T, or deal with it, seem like an odd idea considering that this actually means that.... U PAY MORE!!!

    I was never to big on fighting the idea of eliminting wifi and whether it was malitious or not. I only expressed a pattern. The fact that GPS is locked down and the fact that a data plan is REQUIRED is irefutable to the fact that its all about money with these ppl and not about good business practices.

    I just cant understand the defense of Verizon when their practices are the way they are! It just dosn't make sense unless you work for them and have a vested interest in their profits!
    Wow, a company trying to make money!?!? Who would've thunk? I know I pay more for Verizon wireless service, and gladly do so.

    When having AT&T for 6 months, I had more than 70 dropped calls a month and my e-mails always seemed delayed.

    Then I went to Sprint, and had all sorts of problems, mainly with coverage. I had Sprint for almost a year, and was able to use the phone fine at my home, but after 1 year, the signal faded and I was unable to make/recieve calls nor check e-mail at all from home.

    Then I switched to Verizon Wireless, almost 3 years ago now, and have never had an issue recieving e-mail, making or recieving calls, nor have I had a single dropped call in all of that time. I have no use for wi-fi because there's only 1 hotspot in my area and it charges $3.99 a month in order to access it, and when I am at home, I would rather use my laptop to access my e-mail and browse the interwebs... GPS is useless for me as well, since I only go to work ( less than 5 miles away from home ), and to the grocery store ( on the way home from work ). And for my needs, google maps and Blackberry maps works fine, when I type in the cross streets that I am at, I can find directions to where I am going. I can follow directions, I don't need a constant reminder on when I need to turn or which way...

    Point is, there are no CDMA Blackberry's with wi-fi, I'm not sure how that is Verizon Wireless' call. Are you trying to tell me that it's up to Verizon Wireless that Sprint, Alltel, US Cellular and others don't have Blackberry's with wi-fi? As far as GPS being opened for Verizon Wireless, they want people to choose VZ Navigator service, so they lock down the GPS. I don't know if it's really for privacy, or if they don't want people downloading 3rd party apps that could be harmful to your phone, or what. I do know that Verizon Wireless is not a charity, so they are in business to make money, and I am sure they will make money any way they can. I don't have a problem with a company trying to make money. I buy name brand clothes, even though they are made from the same materials as Walmart clothes, and I pay more, just for the name. I buy name brand foods, even though most store brands are the exact same thing, so I pay more. I buy premium gasoline instead of regular. I buy synthetic oil instead of conventional oil. I don't care about paying more for better service overall. I don't understand why you feel so strongly to keep ranting about how Verizon Wireless sucks and charges too much and then still use their services.... Stop being a hypocrite. If it was this huge of a deal for you, you would deal with poor service from another provider.
    01-28-09 06:50 PM
  20. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    Man these last two guys sure are long-winded.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    01-28-09 06:57 PM
  21. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    If you're going to make any argument you should really know the basics....Like the GPS has been unlocked for the past 5 months on all blackberries. Why would you care that a data plan is REQUIRED, if you're buying the phone they told you that at the beginning before you ever made a purchase and you signed a contract.

    I should know the basics? LOL Think about what you just posted and then rethink the idea of who needs to know basics!

    Let me give u a lil clue... GPS is NOT unlocked! It is modified so allow the use of BB Maps! U got ur clue? LOL ok good!

    And I care if a data plan is required because it holds u a sort of"double" contract in hat u have ur 2 year with the voice plan and ur also held to 2 years with a data plan as well. Also, some ppl like the curve as a phone and texting device! But as I knw it, there is no berden to verizon to allow a voice plan only on a blackberry. other companies o t and there's no berden to them.
    01-28-09 08:42 PM
  22. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    Clarification to your statement - "Like the GPS has been unlocked for the past 5 months on all blackberries."

    This is not true! The 8830 running the official OS supported by Verizon (OS 4.2) has a GPS that is still "locked" for all means and purposes. You are forced to upgrade to a non-Verizon OS in order to take advantage of the seemingly unlocked GPS. And, I don't think time passes that quickly...It's only been about 2 months if I recall.

    Back on topic...
    thank you! Although 4.5 is official, it by far hasn't been 5 months, LOL!!!

    It still burns me as to how they are defending this so much!!! As if they gain anything by it
    01-28-09 08:46 PM
  23. scurvydlicious's Avatar
    Man these last two guys sure are long-winded.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Haha, very true. Very nice post about assisted GPS, by the way.
    01-28-09 10:25 PM
  24. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    Thanks. Somewhere around here, I have an essay on it that I wrote last year. If I can find it, I will post it.

    There are reasons the GPS is locked down, but those who don't understand the cost of it scream that they are being ripped off.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    01-29-09 12:15 AM
  25. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    guess whatever the reason is does not apply to the storm...hmmmm
    01-29-09 01:58 PM
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