02-19-14 02:14 AM
42 12
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  1. Omnitech's Avatar
    One of the nice things about modern cellphones is that the clocks are locked to the network time source and are generally very accurate.

    And the CDMA technology VZW uses is very timesync-critical, so the system time has to be very accurate - probably to microsecond level.

    So why is it that both of my VZW Z10s have such inaccurate clocks when I have them configured to "Set Date and Time Automatically"?

    Both my Z10 clocks are between 9-10 seconds off, which might not sound like a lot to some people but there's really no excuse for that when they have direct access to a super-accurate timesync signal.
    01-06-14 05:52 AM
  2. MayorHaji's Avatar
    Perhaps they are sync'ed fine...

    What are you comparing them to?

    Posted via CB10
    kbz1960 likes this.
    01-06-14 12:22 PM
  3. Omnitech's Avatar
    Perhaps they are sync'ed fine...

    What are you comparing them to?

    Millisecond-accurate GPS or NTP time references.
    01-06-14 12:28 PM
  4. LordCrankypants's Avatar
    Talk to Verizon. The time shown is directly from them. There's nothing wrong with your phone.

    JB

    Posted from my brain to your screen via CBQ10
    01-06-14 12:30 PM
  5. Omnitech's Avatar
    Talk to Verizon. The time shown is directly from them. There's nothing wrong with your phone.

    Well that's a brilliant idea.

    I would be more interested in knowing:

    A) if anyone else has noticed the same thing (probably most people don't care as long as it isn't 5 minutes off)

    and

    B) If people have noticed this on non-BlackBerry-10 devices activated on Verizon. (I no longer have any of those)
    01-06-14 12:35 PM
  6. MayorHaji's Avatar
    My family use a variety of phones both smart, and feature, and all of them have the same time as each other.

    I'd say your phones are sync'ed just fine with the network. My guess is Verizon is not nearly concerned with being down to the millisecond to the atomic clocks as you are.

    Posted via CB10
    01-06-14 12:57 PM
  7. MMDDZZ's Avatar
    I have noticed this as well. Cable TV Box is about 10 seconds ahead of my VZW Z10. Weird.

    Posted via CB10
    01-06-14 11:22 PM
  8. Omnitech's Avatar
    I have noticed this as well. Cable TV Box is about 10 seconds ahead of my VZW Z10. Weird.

    Thanks for that data point. That is precisely the issue I have. The current time offset is +9.039s on the Z10 I just tested here.

    I'm in the PST (UTC -0800) timezone, by the way.
    01-06-14 11:39 PM
  9. Bla1ze's Avatar
    I've heard this about Verizon before though I really don't have an explanation for it, Sorry Omni.
    01-06-14 11:46 PM
  10. Omnitech's Avatar
    BTW, a quick way to test, if you have an Android device or want to load this on a BB10 device either by sideloading or by direct install on OS 10.2.1 and above, is to install the free app ClockSync by Sergey Baranov.

    As soon as you launch it it will display a comparison and time offset between "atomic time" (based on NTP) and the local timeclock.
    shivaji likes this.
    01-06-14 11:48 PM
  11. Omnitech's Avatar
    I've heard this about Verizon before though I really don't have an explanation for it, Sorry Omni.
    Very interesting.

    Are you a VZW customer? Would love to see people do tests on non-BB devices, as well as on other carriers.
    01-06-14 11:49 PM
  12. undone's Avatar
    Did a quick search on it, seems to be Verizon (people with other phones complaining about it too). At a guess, they probably don't have a proper ntp set up and you'd never get them to admit it. More profits and less spends on infrastructure.....
    01-07-14 10:16 AM
  13. bikenski's Avatar
    Same problem here ever since getting my Q10 on Verizon last summer. Started a thread at that time - http://forums.crackberry.com/blackbe...curate-819112/

    Would love to see a resolution to this, as there's no reason not to have an accurate time source in a GPS enabled CDMA device!
    01-07-14 12:16 PM
  14. MayorHaji's Avatar
    I don't know that you will get a "resolution" to this. For me, even a minute off isn't a big deal to me. I'd venture a guess, that for most of Verizon's customer base, either they haven't noticed, don't care, or just don't know. Prime example is my house. Our wall clocks are set varying between 5 and 10 minutes fast because it helps my wife to get there early. They aren't set by an atomic clock, or an NTP time source as my wife has absolutely no clue as to what those even are. But since she arrives everywhere 5 to 10 minutes early, a 10 second variance doesn't matter. For me, I know what those are, but if my phone is off by 10 or 20 seconds, Meh. And since Verizon just doesn't get but a handful of complaints about it, they don't do anything about it. I'd bet they have bigger fish to fry, like fixing towers, etc.

    Posted via CB10
    01-07-14 04:24 PM
  15. anon6040766's Avatar
    This may be way off what your looking for but provides some context around "time" and how it is certainly not unusual for it to be off by 10-15 seconds from one device to another or station to another etc.

    It is a scientific impossibility to have a clock whether digital or analog to be exactly correct. Wait, let me correct that. They can be sync'd but inevitably will always fall behind.

    All time pieces are slightly inaccurate by definition. For example, there are really only 23 hours and 49 minutes in a day. If you add up that extra minute used to make 24 hour days as in one extra minute every day for four years you get an entire extra day, hence a leap year...February 29th every fourth year.

    The Bulova Precicionist Watch claims to be the most accurate watch in the world only losing 10 seconds per YEAR, while most watches on average lose 15 seconds per MONTH.

    Bottomline, like any other time piece...it will always be slightly off.

    Posted via my BlackBerry Z30 on VZW from Philly
    01-10-14 12:50 AM
  16. Omnitech's Avatar
    Same problem here ever since getting my Q10 on Verizon last summer. Started a thread at that time - http://forums.crackberry.com/blackbe...curate-819112/

    Would love to see a resolution to this, as there's no reason not to have an accurate time source in a GPS enabled CDMA device!

    Very interesting and thanks for the link. I'll read it in a minute.


    Did a quick search on it, seems to be Verizon (people with other phones complaining about it too). At a guess, they probably don't have a proper ntp set up and you'd never get them to admit it. More profits and less spends on infrastructure.....

    The network technology that Verizon uses demands that they have an extremely accurate time sync reference (far more accurate than I require personally on my phone), or their network technology will not work properly.

    I guarantee you that there is no lack of accurate time reference in their network itself. The question is why Verizon provides a grossly inaccurate time reference to end-user devices.


    This may be way off what your looking for but provides some context around "time" and how it is certainly not unusual for it to be off by 10-15 seconds from one device to another or station to another etc.

    It is a scientific impossibility to have a clock whether digital or analog to be exactly correct. Wait, let me correct that. They can be sync'd but inevitably will always fall behind.

    I won't even bother to respond to that, other than to say: no.
    01-14-14 05:59 AM
  17. Zidentia's Avatar
    The passage of Time is relevant to many things. Saying no clock or watch can be 100% accurate is an erroneous statement. Time as we know it is measured in atomic decay. Atomic decay is not perfect as well. A clock or watch is just a way to measure the passage. Saying it is imperfect in not an accurate statement as time passes differently based on too many factors to list here.

    We have picked a standard to gauge our measurements and we start from there. Time is an absolute and is perfect in execution but as a civilization we have yet to uncover the best way to capture the passage of it.
    This may be way off what your looking for but provides some context around "time" and how it is certainly not unusual for it to be off by 10-15 seconds from one device to another or station to another etc.

    It is a scientific impossibility to have a clock whether digital or analog to be exactly correct. Wait, let me correct that. They can be sync'd but inevitably will always fall behind.

    All time pieces are slightly inaccurate by definition. For example, there are really only 23 hours and 49 minutes in a day. If you add up that extra minute used to make 24 hour days as in one extra minute every day for four years you get an entire extra day, hence a leap year...February 29th every fourth year.

    The Bulova Precicionist Watch claims to be the most accurate watch in the world only losing 10 seconds per YEAR, while most watches on average lose 15 seconds per MONTH.

    Bottomline, like any other time piece...it will always be slightly off.

    Posted via my BlackBerry Z30 on VZW from Philly
    01-14-14 11:43 AM
  18. anon6040766's Avatar
    Very interesting and thanks for the link. I'll read it in a minute.





    The network technology that Verizon uses demands that they have an extremely accurate time sync reference (far more accurate than I require personally on my phone), or their network technology will not work properly.

    I guarantee you that there is no lack of accurate time reference in their network itself. The question is why Verizon provides a grossly inaccurate time reference to end-user devices.





    I won't even bother to respond to that, other than to say: no.
    It's extremely easy to dismiss someone's statement when you don't comprehend what they're saying.


    Posted via CB10
    01-14-14 12:36 PM
  19. MayorHaji's Avatar
    The network technology that Verizon uses demands that they have an extremely accurate time sync reference (far more accurate than I require personally on my phone), or their network technology will not work properly.
    So long as the Verizon Network is using the same time, system wide, CDMA doesn't know it's off, since every tower is reporting the same "off" time.

    It's similar to kerberos. As long as the device that is looking for the access is within a certain range of time to the kerberos authenticator, which us usually 5 minutes, then it'll work. Now, you have three ways to sync the time between device and authenticator. 1. Sync the time with the authenticator, 2. Sync the time with an outside source from both devices, or 3. Sync to the authenticator which in turn syncs to an outside source. My guess is, as it most setups, Verizon is using the last one. Every device is syncing to an internal to Verizon time source with very tight tolerances, and that time source is syncing to, I'm guessing, the atomic clock network using very lax settings.

    As to why....who knows.

    The Mayor hath spoken.
    undone likes this.
    01-14-14 03:17 PM
  20. Omnitech's Avatar
    So long as the Verizon Network is using the same time, system wide, CDMA doesn't know it's off, since every tower is reporting the same "off" time.

    It's similar to kerberos. As long as the device that is looking for the access is within a certain range of time to the kerberos authenticator, which us usually 5 minutes, then it'll work. Now, you have three ways to sync the time between device and authenticator. 1. Sync the time with the authenticator, 2. Sync the time with an outside source from both devices, or 3. Sync to the authenticator which in turn syncs to an outside source. My guess is, as it most setups, Verizon is using the last one. Every device is syncing to an internal to Verizon time source with very tight tolerances, and that time source is syncing to, I'm guessing, the atomic clock network using very lax settings.

    As to why....who knows.

    Really, you're making things up.

    Given the CDMA network technology requirements and various other reasons (ie, law enforcement, among many others), there is NO reason why a network provider like Verizon would propagate a "synthetic time" throughout their network, and in fact it would be a complete absurdity, because they would have to create their own global time reference to keep that synchronized, which is independent of the wireless network itself, ie launch their own constellation of satellites to replicate what GPS/Glonass/Beidou/Galileo SATNAV systems already provide.

    The CDMA network requires better than one MICROsecond time synchronization between every single tower. Trust me, the network "knows" the correct time. Every single tower has a GPS receiver as part of the radio.

    CDMA System Time (CDG Technology : Welcome to the World of CDMA)

    The issue is either the time-reference provided to end-user devices is off, or there is something with the timesync implementation in BlackBerry 10 that is not working properly.

    Given what some others have said which I take to mean other non-BlackBerry devices on Verizon's network also have inaccurate clocks, it's looking like the former at this point.



    The Mayor hath spoken.

    Well you must be correct then.
    01-14-14 05:06 PM
  21. Omnitech's Avatar
    It's extremely easy to dismiss someone's statement when you don't comprehend what they're saying.

    01-14-14 05:14 PM
  22. MayorHaji's Avatar
    Really, you're making things up.
    More like an educated guess.

    Given the CDMA network technology requirements and various other reasons (ie, law enforcement, among many others), there is NO reason why a network provider like Verizon would propagate a "synthetic time" throughout their network, and in fact it would be a complete absurdity, because they would have to create their own global time reference to keep that synchronized, which is independent of the wireless network itself, ie launch their own constellation of satellites to replicate what GPS/Glonass/Beidou/Galileo SATNAV systems already provide.

    As a network administrator, I can tell you this is exactly what they do. The reason is, this puts them in control of both ends of what CDMA requires. Any network administrator worth anything knows this.

    I'm not saying I'm 100% right as I'm not an administrator at Verizon. But if I were a betting man, this is what I'd bet on.



    The Mayor hath spoken.
    01-14-14 07:20 PM
  23. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    My phones have been working for years.

    I lost more than 10 seconds reading this.

    Y'all need to learn to relax, and fret about meaningful things.

    Damn, lost another 10 posting this!
    Uzi and MayorHaji like this.
    01-14-14 08:05 PM
  24. MayorHaji's Avatar
    My phones have been working for years.

    I lost more than 10 seconds reading this.

    Y'all need to learn to relax, and fret about meaningful things.

    Damn, lost another 10 posting this!
    Must be Jef's fault.

    The Mayor hath spoken.
    01-14-14 08:27 PM
  25. Its Spade's Avatar
    My phones have been working for years.

    I lost more than 10 seconds reading this.

    Y'all need to learn to relax, and fret about meaningful things.

    Damn, lost another 10 posting this!
    He simply asked a question that was bothering him ... no need to tell him to relax about it... and no need to make fun...

    Omnitech your best bet is to call your carrier and ask them.. maybe your device needs to be resynced to the network.
    01-15-14 11:24 AM
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