06-22-09 10:07 PM
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  1. angelalynn79's Avatar
    Of course they're liable. But in the instance of the posters message the insurance company didn't even state they received it at all. Not that they received an empty box. They had no record of receiving anything.

    You're being an ***. Are YOU in school for law? Look. Instead of flaming the boards why don't you PM me and grow up?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    06-22-09 01:04 AM
  2. patches152's Avatar
    proof of delivery usually has weight of package being shipped on it, doesn't it? as long as sending package from VZW to customer matches weight being returned, then that's part of it. but the return date on the fedex reciept doesn't mean the warehouse has processed it. that can take a few days sometimes. just let VZW do their thing in the future. the most important part is getting a rep who will own the situation, and follow up and ACTIVELY CALL YOU TO UPDATE YOU ON THE SITUATION. if they don't offer, or if they decline when you ask, say "thank you" hang up, and call back. i used to get in trouble for having TOO MANY follow ups. but my customer satisfaction was through the roof.

    to each their own.
    06-22-09 01:16 AM
  3. angelalynn79's Avatar
    The bottom line is that the laws always benefit the consumer. Once the consignee has signed for the package, the burden of proof lies on the insurance company not the customer. Do companies stand to get screwed over that way?
    Ok. But that's the way the law is. You should know this. Its there to protect the little guy. If there is an empty box received, fine. But they have to prove it. Otherwise how could you ship anything or why would you want to, if there was nothing to protect you from someone just pocketing merchandise and saying "oops sorry, box was empty!".

    If you don't believe me I'm sorry. That's how it is. But you'll be a great lawyer. You've already gotten the pointless argument down, and the "I'm better than everyone else" attitude. Which I'm so glad the world has another elitist lawyer coming, I think there was a shortage.

    My last message ever on crackberry, but wanted to defend myself because you attacked my knowledge on what I do for my career. And ya know what. Go look up contract laws and shipping laws. If you're Mr law student, that's up to you to know.

    As pointed out, my advice helped the OP get the guts to keep following up. And guess what. The OP didn't ship an empty box after all. So your messages to me. POINTLESS.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    06-22-09 01:41 AM
  4. vatothe0's Avatar
    Do you have this rule that states that we can not charge someone if they send back an empty package? I'm sure there is terms & conditions that state if we do not receive the phone back you will be charged. Verizon does not have to go after FedEX if they do not receive the phone. My question regarding the name of the law was because you said "legally" like you know the law. Are you going to school for law? (like I am?) or did you say that to try and lend credit to your claim? Signing for the package just means if the box is stolen that FedEx is not liable. If I opened my box after FedEx left and my package was damaged, or not there. The shipper would be liable, not me just because I signed for it.
    Of course they're liable. But in the instance of the posters message the insurance company didn't even state they received it at all. Not that they received an empty box. They had no record of receiving anything.

    You're being an ***. Are YOU in school for law? Look. Instead of flaming the boards why don't you PM me and grow up?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Uhhhh. Where did you ever come up with that idea?
    06-22-09 02:00 AM
  5. gotblackberry's Avatar
    Of course they're liable. But in the instance of the posters message the insurance company didn't even state they received it at all. Not that they received an empty box. They had no record of receiving anything.

    You're being an ***. Are YOU in school for law? Look. Instead of flaming the boards why don't you PM me and grow up?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    The insurance company, or Verizon? I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. If they state that they didn't receive anything then that means there is no "proof of delivery." If there is "proof of delivery." that just means a package was delivered, not a phone in the package or not even the correct phone. There are so many variables here and it's not as black & white as you make it out to be.

    Yes, I am in school for that. Not in law school yet, but almost have a Bachelors in Criminal Justice w/ lots of Pre-Law classes. It just makes me mad when people say "legally" like it lends credit to their argument when in reality this would be tort law and really has nothing to do with any laws on the book.
    06-22-09 01:37 PM
  6. nd7188's Avatar
    Depending on FedEx's carrier agreement, there is likely a contract claim, not a tort claim. I see the argument made that FedEx is responsible, and contractual would probably be a better word to use than legally.

    Having been in the same position myself once with Verizon on a package that was returned to them but the equipment just never scanned in the warehouse I can feel for the op

    just my 2 cents
    06-22-09 01:46 PM
  7. gotblackberry's Avatar
    Depending on FedEx's carrier agreement, there is likely a contract claim, not a tort claim. I see the argument made that FedEx is responsible, and contractual would probably be a better word to use than legally.

    Having been in the same position myself once with Verizon on a package that was returned to them but the equipment just never scanned in the warehouse I can feel for the op

    just my 2 cents

    Right, I meant tort as a general term for this would be a civil matter. It would come down to a contract dispute. I agree that as stated the OP's post is saddening but that's why we have forms we fill out and they look in the distribution center for the phones. I hope it gets worked out. It's not as black and white as angela made it out to be.
    06-22-09 01:52 PM
  8. patches152's Avatar
    the problem is that this is SUCH an easy fix, but OP lost his cool. this is no big deal. the warehouse didn't process the phone the same day. they never do. if after 5 days it's not found, THEN lose your lid. until then you're just making a mountain out of a mole hill.
    06-22-09 01:55 PM
  9. ppbb's Avatar
    as long as he has proof of delivery and it was signed for by a vzw employee. end of story. its now vzw's issue and they have to work it out within the warehouse.
    06-22-09 04:20 PM
  10. gotblackberry's Avatar
    as long as he has proof of delivery and it was signed for by a vzw employee. end of story. its now vzw's issue and they have to work it out within the warehouse.
    Says.. you?
    06-22-09 04:30 PM
  11. noaim's Avatar
    Says.. you?

    no says the way shipping works..

    they can't bill him for a phone that they have in there possesion... with shipping if you sign you are supposed to check before you even sign..

    so truthfully they would have to take the bill away and then if things prove different they would have to ship it back and rebill him.
    06-22-09 07:03 PM
  12. gotblackberry's Avatar
    no says the way shipping works..

    they can't bill him for a phone that they have in there possesion... with shipping if you sign you are supposed to check before you even sign..

    so truthfully they would have to take the bill away and then if things prove different they would have to ship it back and rebill him.
    Proof of delivery means just that.. it was delivered. It does not guarantee the contents in the box are correct, or even there.
    06-22-09 08:46 PM
  13. patches152's Avatar
    it takes proof of delivery AND warehouse confirmation to resolve this.


    why is that so hard to understand?
    06-22-09 08:48 PM
  14. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    it takes proof of delivery AND warehouse confirmation to resolve this.


    why is that so hard to understand?
    I can always rely on you to be a voice of reason - sometimes even more than I can rely on me.

    Large Shipper 101 (Receiving Department)

    Thousands of incoming packages each day.

    Shipments come in, batched & wrapped on a pallet, with a shipping bill.

    Individual packages are bar coded & included in the shipping bill.

    Receipt of this shipment is NOT receipt of anything of value. Using FedEx as an example, FedEx certifies that the packages on that pallet match what is on the shipping bill. The pallet is what is signed for & the receiving department having received the pallet shows each package was also received - but legally, the proof is still on FedEx, as the contents have not been verified.

    At this point, all we have is FedEx certification and the receiver is not yet liable.

    Pallet(s) get sent to secondary receiving, where the actual packages are verified, but not the contents. Each package is left unopened, but is counted & inspected for external damage, with documentation.

    Individual packages are now matched with RAs (return authorizations) & sent to inspection. It is at inspection where the packages are opened & the contents verified. If there was any external package damages, the internal damage is also assessed at this point.

    So by this point, which may now be a few days after receipt of the pallet, all we know is that the packages were received and that the contents matched. If at any time during this process, something doesn't match or isn't Kosher, the issue is sent for investigation. Regardless, we still don't have enough information to issue a credit.

    Now it is time for tech inspection, where the contents are more closely inspected & checked for stated reason for return. With cell phones, externally or water damaged items get rejected. Unauthorized OS or damaging/incompatible software installs may get rejected or further checked to see if these caused the problem - and possibly rejected after the further inspection/testing.

    So far, many points exist where the return may be rejected. But wait, there is another point to look at. At this point, the receiving center is not owned/run by the carrier; they are contracted by the carrier. Carriers specialize in mobile phone service & tend to outsource their returns to a company that does receiving. So many of the rejected or questionable returns are placed on a separate list for carrier acceptance. If the carrier does not accept the return, they may choose to send the device to the manufacturer to see if they will accept it.

    Process to this point may have hit 45 days since the original pallet was accepted. If there were no questions on the return, odds are the carrier adds the credit within 48 business hours of being notified that all checked out, but a billing cycle may have overlapped, hence the two to three billing cycle quote for credit to show up. If there were exceptions, like damage, improper use, etc., and the manufacturer is involved, the credit, if it is ultimately issued, may not hit the billing system for 45 to 60 days after that pallet was received. Or, by the time a rejection letter is processed & sent to the customer, another 10-15 days may have elapsed, bringing us to as many as 75 days, or enough to affect three billing cycles.

    Now if it was blatant fraud, a rock in a box perhaps, the process may be faster and there is an outside chance postal inspectors may show up with a warrant for your arrest, but I digress.

    Many years ago, my then wife presented me with a package under the tree. It weighed quite a bit. I'd mentioned a particular item that I'd wanted and this package felt like either that item. I opened the box to find another box. After the fourth box, there was a layer of rocks covering yet another box. In the smallest box was a printed business card that directed me to my workbench off the garage. On the workbench was another box. I tore off the wrapping paper and written on the outside of that box was written words - Hope You Enjoy What I Got For Your Truck - thinking she did something special to my truck (and wondering if I'd have to kill her for messing with my truck), I ran into the garage. She did do something to my truck - she got it a companion - a brand new motorcycle - custom paint, seat, wheels & one mile on the odo.

    The keys were in the box she'd put on the workbench. What's more, I completely missed the second box on my workbench - a full on Dillon Precision press, complete with dies.

    And you think receiving a box is proof of what is inside? Neither do businesses that accept returns.

    The bike is long gone, but I still have the press. Everytime I use it, I think of her.

    Can't believe its been over 20 years since we buried that sweet woman.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    06-22-09 10:07 PM
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