08-11-09 11:46 AM
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  1. notnowjohn's Avatar
    I live the Philly area and I am doubting Verizon's claim to be the largest 3G network. I have the Storm and Page 39 of the tips and shortcuts booklet lists the coverage indicators. If you are in 3G mode you should be able to send/receive email and talk on the phone simultaneously. I don't know about anyone else but I can't. I called Verizon and couldn't get a straight answer.
    01-22-09 09:03 PM
  2. Sith_Apprentice's Avatar
    the 3G shows only on GSM 3G. 1XEV is Verizon's 3G
    01-22-09 09:04 PM
  3. rwking's Avatar
    Yes we are the largest 3g network...the inability to have a conversation and send an e-mail is an inability of the device. Voice/SMS/Data run on seperate data streams.

    The true measure of 3G is the speed of data and the network's capability to seemlessly process the amount of data that VZW customers use all over the country in any given second. Is it perfect? Of course not. But we have alot more success than failures which is more to say that other companies.

    What seperates VZW from the others is the willingness to invest back into the network to make our service stand out from the others. We may be a lil more expensive than the others, but our customers get the benefits.
    01-22-09 09:11 PM
  4. moosc's Avatar
    only gsm can do talk and data at the same time, And actually verizon is like 3.5G
    01-22-09 09:57 PM
  5. lastraid's Avatar
    Bottom line, data and voice cannot be done on the VZW network.
    01-22-09 10:09 PM
  6. mikells43's Avatar
    vzw has had 3g since 2002 also.
    01-22-09 10:59 PM
  7. RHChan84's Avatar
    Ever since EV-DO rev.a was release, CDMA networks has had "3G" speeds.
    01-22-09 11:48 PM
  8. notnowjohn's Avatar
    I'm not questioning the speed. The speed is fine. Verizon shouldn't listing their network can perform simultaneous tasks when it can't. I am only going by what Verizon states in its own literature.
    01-23-09 12:48 AM
  9. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    Yes we are the largest 3g network...
    Yes, this is very true.
    the inability to have a conversation and send an e-mail is an inability of the device. Voice/SMS/Data run on seperate data streams.
    No and yes. Don't believe everything they tell you.

    The yes part first, but actually a partly. It is actually separate channels, a distinction too broad and not needed for this thread.

    Now for the no part. It is not a device limitation, but a CDMA technology limitation, but more on that in a bit.

    3G (or third generation) is mobile-phone service with data rates of at least 144 Kbps while in motion, and a theoretical maximum of over 2 Mbps from a fixed location. The slower "in motion" speed is caused by throttling the speed to handle the latency caused by switching between towers. EDGE is 3G, as is CDMA Rev0. There are those who sill argue that the original EDGE & Rev.0 are actually 2.5G, but the speed of both are sufficiently fast enough to be 3G and they are 3G. The newer versions, or revisions, are faster still. The problem is, the original Rev.0 was faster than the current GSM performance. But there are tradeoffs, and the ability to simultaneously handle voice & data are one of those tradeoffs. CDMA Rev.0 & Rev.a are masters of speed, while GSM is a jack of both trades and master of neither.

    The GSM latency actually is the cause of many metro area dropped calls on the AT&T network.

    For those keeping score, VZW's CDMA technology is EV-DO, or Evolution Data Only. The acronym should tell you what it is capable of - data only. Put voice into the mix and it replaces the data.

    The theoretical maximum speed of the current generation of EV-DO CDMA 3G (Rev.a) is about 2.4Mbps. The Verizon network, in most metro areas, as well as in much of North America, tests out at 800-1.1Mbps - faster than many DSL or ISDN connections. The theoretical maximum of the current GSM standard has a maximum stationary theoretical speed of about half that of the current performance of VZW's CDMA and the actual is between 50-75% of that. The original EV-DO (Rev.0) was similar in speed to the current AT&T GSM.

    So, as you can see, while both VZW & AT&T are 3G, for pure data performance, there is no comparison. But if you need to do both data & voice, CDMA cannot handle that. There are some CDMA features with some 'dumb' phones that will do some limited data while voice is active, but 3G performance is not needed for these capabilities.

    Do you need the speed? Probably not, if you're not tethering. Your little phone probably won't be downloading many gigabyte files.

    For the record, some people refer to VZW (and some Sprint areas) as 3.5G, because it is so much faster than ist GSM counterpart. In reality, it is not 3.5G, but rather at a higher end of the 3G spectrum.

    Do you want CDMA speed & the ability to simultaneously talk & surf? You need the most advanced CDMA upgrade, known as EV-DV, or Evolution Data & Voice. EV-DV merges voice & data traffic & improves download speeds to a theoretical maximum of about 3.1 Mbps. It is not currently available, and based on various Qualcomm decisions in the past few months, may never be. But this is okay, because LTE promises to trump all of the previous technologies and handle voice, data & text - all simultaneously.

    The latency of GSM is huge compared to CDMA, LTE & UMTS (Universal Mobile Telecommunications System). GSM is actually a bit more consistent than the sometimes lauded UMTS (not available in North America), but the latency inherent in GSM makes UMTS 'feel' better. Click on a link on a GSM device and notice the hesitation before anything happens. With UMTS & CDMA, the reaction is almost immediate. Both UMTS & CDMA are rated much faster in tests using people who were not told which technology they were using, even though UMTS is really no faster than GSM, overall.

    So, to answer your question, yes, VZW is 3G. AT&T is 3G. A Corvette ZR-1 is a sports car. A Mazda MX-5 is a sports car. Which will win the race? VZW & Chevrolet, of course. But AT&T, like Mazda, have their own advantages.

    You simply need to look at the real definition of the 3G standard.

    A basic GSM technology platform rundown:

    GPRS (General Packet Radio Service) - 1st GSM upgrade rated at 2.5G
    EDGE (Enhanced Data for Global Evolution) - 2nd GSM upgrade rated at 3G
    UMTS (Universal Mobile Telecommunications System) - 3rd GSM upgrade rated at 3G with a higher theoretical maximum, but slower "in motion" speeds.
    HSDPA (High-Speed Downlink Packet Access) - 4th GSM upgrade again rated as 3G, but the fastest of the GSM flavors, with maximum theoretical speeds of 400-700kbps.

    Notice that only HSPDA (currently in use in some AT&T markets) competes with the speed of Rev.0, and cannot compete with Rev.a or the upcoming LTE.

    But hey - with CDMA I might miss an opportunity to search for some factoid to impress the girlfriend while chatting with her on the phone.
    01-23-09 12:53 AM
  10. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    This was written while I was typing above...

    I'm not questioning the speed. The speed is fine. Verizon shouldn't listing their network can perform simultaneous tasks when it can't. I am only going by what Verizon states in its own literature.
    Did you see this quote in general VZW literature or was it smartphone specific? On many phones, VCast will function while on a call. And while tethered, you can do multiple tasks on your computer - the speed is there. Without 3G, you might not want to do multiple things simultaneously, as one or more taske would slow painfully.

    Every bit of VZW literature I've seen, with regards to BlackBerry, omits any claims of being able to simultaneously talk & surf on the device.
    01-23-09 12:57 AM
  11. notnowjohn's Avatar
    It is listed in the handbook that came with my device. Tips, hints and shortcuts. Page 39 lists the network coverage indicators and what they mean. 3G followed by the BlackBerry logo states, "You can use the phone and send and receive email messages or use the browser simultaneously."
    01-23-09 01:08 AM
  12. KINetics's Avatar
    I tether my vzn bb curve and do about 825kbs and that's only Rev. 0 capable.
    01-23-09 02:01 AM
  13. anon(368121)'s Avatar
    It is listed in the handbook that came with my device. Tips, hints and shortcuts. Page 39 lists the network coverage indicators and what they mean. 3G followed by the BlackBerry logo states, "You can use the phone and send and receive email messages or use the browser simultaneously."
    And that statement is 100% true when using the phone on a 3G GSM network outside of North America. When I was in France and Germany last week with my Storm, I roamed almost exclusively on 3G networks. Excellent browser and email performance, and I received emails while on voice calls.

    Unfortunately, 3G GSM is not available domestically on the 9530 Storm.
    01-23-09 06:36 AM
  14. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    The Storm would be the critical difference, as it runs both CDMA & GSM. My apologies for missing this distinction.

    By the way, you can technically take a Storm & use it on T-Mo in North America and T-Mo will allow it. Again, though... you will lose speed.
    01-23-09 07:28 AM
  15. Rogue9's Avatar
    Yes, this is very true.No and yes. Don't believe everything they tell you.

    The yes part first, but actually a partly. It is actually separate channels, a distinction too broad and not needed for this thread.

    Now for the no part. It is not a device limitation, but a CDMA technology limitation, but more on that in a bit.

    3G (or third generation) is mobile-phone service with data rates of at least 144 Kbps while in motion, and a theoretical maximum of over 2 Mbps from a fixed location. The slower "in motion" speed is caused by throttling the speed to handle the latency caused by switching between towers. EDGE is 3G, as is CDMA Rev0. There are those who sill argue that the original EDGE & Rev.0 are actually 2.5G, but the speed of both are sufficiently fast enough to be 3G and they are 3G. The newer versions, or revisions, are faster still. The problem is, the original Rev.0 was faster than the current GSM performance. But there are tradeoffs, and the ability to simultaneously handle voice & data are one of those tradeoffs. CDMA Rev.0 & Rev.a are masters of speed, while GSM is a jack of both trades and master of neither.

    The GSM latency actually is the cause of many metro area dropped calls on the AT&T network.

    For those keeping score, VZW's CDMA technology is EV-DO, or Evolution Data Only. The acronym should tell you what it is capable of - data only. Put voice into the mix and it replaces the data.

    The theoretical maximum speed of the current generation of EV-DO CDMA 3G (Rev.a) is about 2.4Mbps. The Verizon network, in most metro areas, as well as in much of North America, tests out at 800-1.1Mbps - faster than many DSL or ISDN connections. The theoretical maximum of the current GSM standard has a maximum stationary theoretical speed of about half that of the current performance of VZW's CDMA and the actual is between 50-75% of that. The original EV-DO (Rev.0) was similar in speed to the current AT&T GSM.

    So, as you can see, while both VZW & AT&T are 3G, for pure data performance, there is no comparison. But if you need to do both data & voice, CDMA cannot handle that. There are some CDMA features with some 'dumb' phones that will do some limited data while voice is active, but 3G performance is not needed for these capabilities.

    Do you need the speed? Probably not, if you're not tethering. Your little phone probably won't be downloading many gigabyte files.

    For the record, some people refer to VZW (and some Sprint areas) as 3.5G, because it is so much faster than ist GSM counterpart. In reality, it is not 3.5G, but rather at a higher end of the 3G spectrum.

    Do you want CDMA speed & the ability to simultaneously talk & surf? You need the most advanced CDMA upgrade, known as EV-DV, or Evolution Data & Voice. EV-DV merges voice & data traffic & improves download speeds to a theoretical maximum of about 3.1 Mbps. It is not currently available, and based on various Qualcomm decisions in the past few months, may never be. But this is okay, because LTE promises to trump all of the previous technologies and handle voice, data & text - all simultaneously.

    The latency of GSM is huge compared to CDMA, LTE & UMTS (Universal Mobile Telecommunications System). GSM is actually a bit more consistent than the sometimes lauded UMTS (not available in North America), but the latency inherent in GSM makes UMTS 'feel' better. Click on a link on a GSM device and notice the hesitation before anything happens. With UMTS & CDMA, the reaction is almost immediate. Both UMTS & CDMA are rated much faster in tests using people who were not told which technology they were using, even though UMTS is really no faster than GSM, overall.

    So, to answer your question, yes, VZW is 3G. AT&T is 3G. A Corvette ZR-1 is a sports car. A Mazda MX-5 is a sports car. Which will win the race? VZW & Chevrolet, of course. But AT&T, like Mazda, have their own advantages.

    You simply need to look at the real definition of the 3G standard.

    A basic GSM technology platform rundown:

    GPRS (General Packet Radio Service) - 1st GSM upgrade rated at 2.5G
    EDGE (Enhanced Data for Global Evolution) - 2nd GSM upgrade rated at 3G
    UMTS (Universal Mobile Telecommunications System) - 3rd GSM upgrade rated at 3G with a higher theoretical maximum, but slower "in motion" speeds.
    HSDPA (High-Speed Downlink Packet Access) - 4th GSM upgrade again rated as 3G, but the fastest of the GSM flavors, with maximum theoretical speeds of 400-700kbps.

    Notice that only HSPDA (currently in use in some AT&T markets) competes with the speed of Rev.0, and cannot compete with Rev.a or the upcoming LTE.

    But hey - with CDMA I might miss an opportunity to search for some factoid to impress the girlfriend while chatting with her on the phone.
    I now feel much smarter after reading that post.

    Thanks.
    01-23-09 08:55 AM
  16. pkcable's Avatar
    (edited out)
    Dude,

    That was one of THE best explanations of the technologies that I have ever seen! Good work!
    01-23-09 10:06 AM
  17. Dartanion's Avatar
    It is listed in the handbook that came with my device. Tips, hints and shortcuts. Page 39 lists the network coverage indicators and what they mean. 3G followed by the BlackBerry logo states, "You can use the phone and send and receive email messages or use the browser simultaneously."
    Do you understand now?
    01-23-09 04:22 PM
  18. Xopher's Avatar
    Unfortunately, most manuals and technical docs will refer to 3G to mean the GSM equivalent, and not the EV-DO standard. So they can say 3G can handle it simultaneously without being wrong.

    It really wasn't until the iPhone 3G came out that Verizon started calling their network 3G, just so they could have something to compete with that phone purchasers could recognize. If they said they had the fastest EV-DO network, it wouldn't show a direct comparison/competition to AT&T or others.
    01-24-09 08:27 AM
  19. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    Dude,

    That was one of THE best explanations of the technologies that I have ever seen! Good work!
    Thanks - to think I almost typed all of it from my Berry!

    Unfortunately, most manuals and technical docs will refer to 3G to mean the GSM equivalent, and not the EV-DO standard. So they can say 3G can handle it simultaneously without being wrong.
    Much of the CDMA BlackBerry manual information was lifted directly (and mostly unchanged) from the earlier GSM models.

    That being said, AT&T was probably the one that most corrupted the definition of 3G, probably because their network speed doesn't come close to even Sprint. They had to have some competitive clain, so they chose something along the lines of "We offer 3G, where you can get data & voice at the same time!"

    Unfortunately, 3G is only a speed range and has nothing to do with the actual capabilities within that range - it also bears notice that the high speed capabilities of VZW dwarfs that of AT&T. $350million spent by AT&T in the Phoenix area over 18 months to upgrade their service and they still don't have 3G coverage in all areas of the Valley here.

    Most folks I know would rather have the speed over being able to read their favorite blog while chatting on the phone. If the BlackBerry speakerphone capabilities were better (RIM speakerphones mostly stink), I might think a bit differently, but I'll take the speed & network quality over being able to wow someone with my knowledge while on the phone by talking & looking up the answer.

    Yes, it is a limitation, but that limitation is within the CDMA structure & not the 3G aspect.
    01-26-09 11:58 PM
  20. Iceman's Avatar
    Good info guys...thanks for posting.
    01-27-09 12:14 AM
  21. jerjohnson00's Avatar
    I just read this post and wish I had found it a month ago when I was doing research on VZW and a few other networks when deciding who to go with for BB service. OUTSTANDING explanation. Would have saved me some time but what you said is exactly in line with what I found. Funny thing is I had a frank conversation with a rep of one of VZW's smaller competitors who told me that VZW had a better network for BBs.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    03-11-09 01:18 AM
  22. RobEmenecker's Avatar
    This is a great thread. I too, became very confused when I looked at the manual for my new Tour (my first Crackberry). To me the manual "implies" that 3G is only available when on an international plan and roaming outside of North America.

    Now I just need someone to clarify the different coverage indicators that can appear on the phone so that *I* can better manage my own expectations of service from Verizon in my area.
    08-06-09 09:32 PM
  23. lastraid's Avatar
    On you device, when you see 1XEV this is 3G
    08-06-09 09:39 PM
  24. guitar2989's Avatar
    Thank you for the clarification. This is probably the best thread i've read in a good while
    08-07-09 03:58 PM
  25. GooTz66's Avatar
    Twins, your knowledge is also enlightening and refreshing! Keep up the great work!
    08-07-09 04:26 PM
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