10-09-09 01:41 PM
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  1. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    Seriously, take for instance the ongoing issues with the Tour's trackball that stops working properly in horizontal mode. The reps are now required to have the customer do a Security Wipe on the phone prior to replacing the phone "even though the issue is a documented HARDWARE ISSUE" right on their paperwork in front of them. Seriously, the trainers at VZW tech support do realize that security wiping a Blackberry is NOT the same as wiping a WinMo phone for instance? There IS NO refresh of the OS during the process, all that happens is that the user data and 3rd party apps (if chosen) are deleted off the phone, that's all, nothing more. How the f is that going to fix a known hardware issue? WTF? I'd like to talk in person to the people that put out these BS tech documents for you CSRs... I really would. I bet it would be an epic facepalm.

    Take the blinders off people... PLEASE!


    (If you must, check the sensativity settings on the trackball and as long as it's not something like too high or too low a setting messing with it, chance are ABSOLUTE that the issue is the defective trackball mechanism on the Tour, but a security wipe is wasting both your time and the customer's time.)
    10-06-09 04:21 PM
  2. SevereDeceit's Avatar
    Great post...
    10-06-09 04:23 PM
  3. tsguy52's Avatar
    This is standard for all smart phone warranties and something we "should" follow. I've processed Tour warranties for trackball issues before and did not make the customer wipe the phone. That was technically wrong on my part, but I knew better since I've personally had the experience.

    This doesn't mean the rep is dumb - just that they are doing their job. Not all of the reps own a Tour and I haven't even seen a tech document posted that explains this as a known hardware issue. All you have to do is say that you've already tried a wipe. No big deal.

    Tech reps deal with hundreds of people each week on issues ranging from voice/data not authenticating to pathetic trackball calls. They know what's going on and what will most likely work. Don't come here flaming VZW reps because of something they have to do. Wiping the device or reloading the OS will fix a lot of problems with smart phones and it's an easy simple step before completing a warranty exchange. THAT is why it is required for ANY problems with smart phones.
    Last edited by tsguy52; 10-06-09 at 04:36 PM.
    10-06-09 04:25 PM
  4. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    This is standard for all smart phone warranties and something we "should" follow. I've processed Tour warranties for trackball issues before and did not make the customer wipe the phone. That was technically wrong on my part, but I knew better since I've personally had the experience.

    This doesn't mean the rep is dumb - just that they are doing their job. All you have to do is say that you've already tried a wipe. No big deal.
    You'd be surprised how some don't believe it.

    And honestly, the core of the blame for this really should be on the people training you guys... your managers and such. If there's a known issue for this, you should just replace the phone when a customer asks you to. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with following "intelligent procedure", but in this perticular place, it's WRONG. Also, you guys used to force people to take the phones to a local store to have it "checked out" by the local tech... again, it's an incovenience for the customer when the issue is such a widespread known hardware problem. The burden of proof should be on you guys, not the customer. Of course, at the end of the day, all VZW cares about is how much money they take from you, not how they treat you. More of you CSRs need to stand up for what you believe and IF you have the necessary tech background to recognize something wrong with procedures, YOU SHOULD VOICE YOUR OPINION FOR CHANGE within the organization. If you guys like being robots with a script and no brain, carry on... you're doing a great job and CS surveys apparently indicate you're the industry leaders.
    10-06-09 04:36 PM
  5. tsguy52's Avatar
    You'd be surprised how some don't believe it.
    You'd be surprised how customers who claim they do actually don't. So it's a two way street. Just explain that you've gone through a wipe (tell them how you did it) and they should believe you.

    And honestly, the core of the blame for this really should be on the people training you guys... your managers and such. If there's a known issue for this, you should just replace the phone when a customer asks you to. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with following "intelligent procedure", but in this perticular place, it's WRONG. Also, you guys used to force people to take the phones to a local store to have it "checked out" by the local tech... again, it's an incovenience for the customer when the issue is such a widespread known hardware problem. The burden of proof should be on you guys, not the customer. Of course, at the end of the day, all VZW cares about is how much money they take from you, not how they treat you. More of you CSRs need to stand up for what you believe and IF you have the necessary tech background to recognize something wrong with procedures, YOU SHOULD VOICE YOUR OPINION FOR CHANGE within the organization. If you guys like being robots with a script and no brain, carry on... you're doing a great job and CS surveys apparently indicate you're the industry leaders.
    Again - when you deal with customers on a daily basis you have to start from the beginning. There is a lot of good information in our KB. Some reps choose what they will follow - their gut feeling or a troubleshooting guide (joke). Either way they are doing their job and the outcome is the same. It may have not been within 5 mins of the call, but you still got the phone ordered right?

    When I got my Tour replaced in the store I had to wait on the manager to the trackball out with a can of air, then do what ever else she did in the back of the store. While I sat there knowing that it was not going to be any better. She gave me the phone and of course nothing was better - handed it to her and asked her to play brick breaker. She agreed it was a hardware issue. EVEN after I explained I worked in tech support. She had never even heard of the trackball problem.

    Put it in perspective of having to communicate that with thousands of reps. The trackball problem did not affect all customers. So how are the reps going to determine the root cause for just anyone? Start from the beginning and go through the standard procedures. End result will be the same.

    Yes - I'm probably one of the most outspoken reps where I work and have used tools that are not supported by the company. It got the job done in a timely matter. However - I do have faith in our management since they obviously got there by good stats and a damn good job.
    10-06-09 04:51 PM
  6. tsguy52's Avatar
    If you guys like being robots with a script and no brain, carry on...
    It is really up to the rep if they want to follow text book procedures or think logically. I hear a lot of reps going through different steps and if they don't work, then they put in a trouble ticket or transfer to the next level of support. This stems from being lazy and just showing up for 8 hours to get a paycheck.

    Where I work is a bit different than the average center and some parts of our own. We have good attitudes and try to make the day go by fast. When we talk to customers we talk about football, weather, etc.. while we do what we have to do. We hate scripted BS and try to stay away from anything that sounds scripted and is not required.

    Most of the time we can determine the problem in the first 1-2 min of the call.
    10-06-09 05:01 PM
  7. ComfortablyNumb's Avatar
    Please... We all know its a waste of time but that doesn't mean anything at all. We have to do what we're told to do whether or not it actually works. None of us wants to get written up or disciplined because we didn't follow procedure. Yeah its a waste of time but it is what it is.....
    10-06-09 05:04 PM
  8. VZWStorm69's Avatar
    The reps do as they are told, a lot of calls are MONITORED FOR QUALITY ASSURANCE. I'd go through everything that I am told to do if my call could be being heard by my supervisor. Reps job is not worth a customer's frustration, sorry. It is procedure. Myself, I can determine and know issues within first few minutes and i'd usually just replace it in store or dfill. But my case is different I am in a store not at a call center I dont have my boss listening.
    10-06-09 05:24 PM
  9. gotblackberry's Avatar
    Civic, do you ever post anything constructive? Really? I mean we do not want to automatically just replace the phone when they say trackball. More costs for us, hassle for the customer. If a phone wipe fixes the issue, why not do it? Sure it could be a hardware issue but that doesn't mean that in every instance it is or that it might not be a software issue for that customer.

    Get off your soapbox.
    10-06-09 05:50 PM
  10. AaronWasHere's Avatar
    Civic, you make some valid points but you sound like a whining child. Yes, there are steps that seem unneccesary while troubleshooting a device, but unfortunately, we can't just cater to you (or at least shouldn't, but some will if you gripe enough) there are steps and procedures we have to follow.

    Now, whether every rep follows 100% of those steps 100% of the time for issues such as this, that is another story.

    Personally, for an issue like that with a trackball, I dont really see the relavance in a wipe of the device with a known hardware issue.
    However, I don't write the policies and I don't feel like getting fired because you threw a fit.
    10-06-09 05:51 PM
  11. bluerskyes's Avatar
    Corporations kind of frown down on the reps who run down the call center yelling " viva la revolucion"...

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Last edited by bluerskyes; 10-06-09 at 07:38 PM.
    10-06-09 06:45 PM
  12. Polychrome's Avatar
    Flamebait post if I ever saw one.

    To me, a broken trackball would be an open and shut case. That said...

    From what I've heard around the grapevine, we've gotten feedback from RIM that an OS reinstall will fix, and I've seen a few reps report success while doing this. Granted, I don't run into trackball issues with the tour anymore, and initially I replaced them without second thought, long before this came up. I told myself that if I ran into the issue again, I'd try the OS reinstall to see how it went. And seriously, if you had the chance to get your device working NOW rather than waiting a few days, wouldn't you try it?

    If anything there might be some miscommunication going around... A "wipe" won't necessarily fix what a reinstall will when you're talking blackberries.
    10-06-09 07:20 PM
  13. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    You can call VZW & get a certain rundown of steps to take to correct an issue. You can then call AT&T with the same question & get much the same steps. Then call Sprint, T-Mobile, USCell, etc. & again get a fairly similar sequence of troubleshooting. Variations, yes - but nothing major. Change the rep's greeting & you'd not know which carrier you were talking to.

    This leads me to believe it is a standard troubleshooting routine. So, who designed the basic routine that the carriers use? Yes, the phone manufacturers. In the case of the Tour, I have been directly in touch with RIM & have been told to wipe the device.

    Since the carriers are only acting as intermediaries in the warranty & support area, the basic process comes from the manufacturer.

    I am not defending the practice - only making note of what these folks are told to do. While some reps possess more intelligence than others, most of them try to do right by the customer - even in the face of sometimes conflicting information from higher up the chain, either from the carrier or the manufacturer.

    And again, insert your choice of carrier here.

    As for the trackball issue, I find it unreasonable to be forced to turn down sensitivity to possibly get it to work. The problem is a combination hardware/software & not something caused by any carrier.

    In the end, the carrier is helping the customer by pviding free tech support. The alternative is to pay RIM for a support call. If you were paying for the support, then you might have an issue. If you were leasing the equipment, you have a complaint. But neither is the case here.

    If I buy something at Costco, I don't call Costco 90 days from now for tech support on that flat panel - I call Pioneer or Sony or Panasonic or whomever. Same thing if I buy a computer at Walmart or a radio at Radio Shack. The carriers are stepping up & offering a little extra.

    Don't call the reps stupid or question their training. Instead, take a look at the support model you're paying for & go from there. If what you're paying isn't getting it done, maybe you need to move up & pay for better service. Free tech support isn't always the best tech support, even if it is from the company that sold you the phone.

    I can call into a radio show for free medical advice from a real doctor. It isn't the same as what I get when I pay up to see my doctor - even if the two are the same.

    Call RIM, get out your credit card & roast their reps. They made the phone. Chew them out & insult their lineage.

    You bought a POS, poorly designed phone at a deeply subsidized price, got it shipped for free, the carrier offers free tech support & you want to degrade the reps who answer the phone? I've purchased televisions that I paid over $10K for & didn't expect what you're demanding of the company who charged you $150 for a $500 phone.

    But what do I know? I was the one (maybe the only one) on this site six months ago, telling people long before the Tour release, about trackball, software, battery cover & screen issues. I caught all sorts of flak for it then & still do.

    Yeah sure - look for the next greatest piece of garbage from the Waterloo dopes - you can blame your carrier, after all & look for the next device from RIM.

    Leave the reps alone - it isn't their fault. It isn't the carriers' fault, either. It is 100% at the feet of the manufacturers. along with the ignorant customers who don't hold those manufacturers' feet to the fire.

    Flamebait post if I ever saw one.
    Agreed
    10-06-09 07:51 PM
  14. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    Civic, do you ever post anything constructive? Really? I mean we do not want to automatically just replace the phone when they say trackball. More costs for us, hassle for the customer. If a phone wipe fixes the issue, why not do it? Sure it could be a hardware issue but that doesn't mean that in every instance it is or that it might not be a software issue for that customer.

    Get off your soapbox.
    Let me break it down in details for you and them tell me the rep wasn't wasting my time.

    1) They knew of the issue.
    2) They were informed that a wipe had been done already.
    3) They knew that a wipe most likely wouldn't fix this issue.
    4) They were made aware that I AM responsible for all BBs at the organization, so obviously I've seen this issue numerous time and I'm not the average user.
    5) They blatantly insisted that I must do a wipe with them on the phone because it would be different then when I did it.

    Bottom line, this person was a moron robot who was so scared to not follow robotic procedure that they probably jeopardized their job even more by carrying on the conversation and then wasting their managers time when I spoke with them.

    My gripe is that this rep should have realized that I had already done all of this prior to calling because I even explained it to them, but instead of just being efficient, they waster 15 minutes of my time and 5 minutes of the manager's time over trivial BS troubleshooting steps on their script THAT HAD ALREADY BEEN DONE.

    That spells dumbass with blinders on to me.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-06-09 10:33 PM
  15. ComfortablyNumb's Avatar
    Speaking of moron robots.... Just because you're an above average user doesn't mean anything. We get tons of calls from people who "know what they're doing" and most of them don't. I'm not saying that you're not above average. Don't blame the rep for not believing you. In the grand scheme of things you're just another p***** off customer who wants to get their way. We have rules to follow. It's our job.
    10-06-09 10:38 PM
  16. Super_Mario's Avatar
    Call RIM, get out your credit card & roast their reps. They made the phone. Chew them out & insult their lineage.

    You bought a POS, poorly designed phone at a deeply subsidized price, got it shipped for free, the carrier offers free tech support & you want to degrade the reps who answer the phone? I've purchased televisions that I paid over $10K for & didn't expect what you're demanding of the company who charged you $150 for a $500 phone.
    Exactly.
    To the OP. Bless the poor soul who had to deal with your arrogant ***. If you didn't like what was asked of you to troubleshoot, and it made you stain your shorts afterwards, why not call the ones who made the phone. You pay Verizon Wireless money for phone service, not for your trackball issue. Who are you to call someone dumb? What makes you so great? Im sure you have an answer for that too, since your so full of yourself.
    10-06-09 10:44 PM
  17. tommybp's Avatar
    It would be a non issue (wiping the device) if you bothered to back your device up ever. Let the reps do their jobs and stop ********. thank you.
    10-06-09 10:48 PM
  18. NIKSTORM's Avatar
    Let me break it down in details for you and them tell me the rep wasn't wasting my time.

    1) They knew of the issue.
    2) They were informed that a wipe had been done already.
    3) They knew that a wipe most likely wouldn't fix this issue.
    4) They were made aware that I AM responsible for all BBs at the organization, so obviously I've seen this issue numerous time and I'm not the average user.
    5) They blatantly insisted that I must do a wipe with them on the phone because it would be different then when I did it.

    Bottom line, this person was a moron robot who was so scared to not follow robotic procedure that they probably jeopardized their job even more by carrying on the conversation and then wasting their managers time when I spoke with them.

    My gripe is that this rep should have realized that I had already done all of this prior to calling because I even explained it to them, but instead of just being efficient, they waster 15 minutes of my time and 5 minutes of the manager's time over trivial BS troubleshooting steps on their script THAT HAD ALREADY BEEN DONE.

    That spells dumbass with blinders on to me.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Did you explain how high your CB post count was?
    10-06-09 10:50 PM
  19. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    When the carrier signed the contract to sell RIM devices, they agreed to play middleman foe support. Granted it's RIM's fault for the faulty hardware, but it's also Verizon's for selling the isht and not pulling the affected phones out of circulation prior to sale.
    And what do you propose they do? Break the contract they agreed to? Should they pull the devices, then lose the customers who blindly want the latest & greatest?

    You are correct - they sign on, agreeing to SELL the devices. If they pull them from the shelf, they are in breach of contract.

    The carriers act as a triage on the devices - little issues they can fix, they do. Anything more than little things & you might get the phone replaced. After that, your recourse is with the manufacturer.

    And, as CN noted above, probably 9 out of 10 callers into tech support think they know everything, or most everything. None do.

    Here's a novel idea that the Euro-minded people should understand. Buy your device at full price - maybe an unlocked Nokia - then take it to a network that will allow you to use it - AT&T & T-Mobile come to mind. Now, when you have issues, you can call the manufacturer directly. Unlike RIM, Nokia at least offers some support for free. Oops, can't fix it over the phone or in email? Package it up, send it to a service center & wait 2-4 weeks for it to come back. You pay for shipping AND if they determine it wasn't a manufacturer defect, you get a bill, too.

    Want manufacturer level tech support? Again, I invite you to pull out that Amex card & have at it.
    10-06-09 10:51 PM
  20. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    Speaking of moron robots.... Just because you're an above average user doesn't mean anything. We get tons of calls from people who "know what they're doing" and most of them don't. I'm not saying that you're not above average. Don't blame the rep for not believing you. In the grand scheme of things you're just another p***** off customer who wants to get their way. We have rules to follow. It's our job.
    That's just it, I wasn't passed off. As a matter of fact I called in calm to get the phone replaced and informed the CSR I had already taken the time to do their troubleshooting steps prior to calling because this was like the 8th replacement I've had to do for this same reason, so I know what's up. The rep was just not listening.... Kind of like you aren't.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-06-09 11:03 PM
  21. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    Did you explain how high your CB post count was?
    Lol, good one.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-06-09 11:11 PM
  22. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    Twins, when I said pull them from the shelf, I didn't say don't sell them, but to go ahead and spearhead the problem before it males it to the customer. Get the affected units replaced by RIM and move on. But no, VZW wants to lock you into a contract and then bitches when you call support and ask for a legitimate replacement AFTER having done their troubleshooting work for them. F the ignorant CSRs, I have no respect for you. The good one know who you are because you've done it for a while and actually have a brain.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-06-09 11:17 PM
  23. AaronWasHere's Avatar

    Bottom line, this person was a moron robot
    Then fix it yourself, you self-righteous a*s

    troubleshooting steps on their script THAT HAD ALREADY BEEN DONE.
    There are no scripts, we have guidelines, procedures and policies
    That spells dumbass with blinders on to me.
    What does that make you by calling this "dumbass with blinders"?
    10-06-09 11:24 PM
  24. tsguy52's Avatar
    This isn't even about my own phone dumbass. Read the posts! And I had already done the same isht the CSR was asking me to do.

    Bottom line, I really don't give a isht because the manager got a nice clear explanation of what happened and was asked to review the call tape and evaluate that rep's ability to make intelligent decisions during a call. Maybe they got reprimanded, maybe not, but the manager got my viewpoint on the matter.

    Case closed. As for the rest of you, think for yourselves once in a while and show some intelligence in your work, otherwise you'll still be in the callcenter when you're 50. Lol

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Funny thing is - you talk about how long it took to wipe the device, but then you want to spend more time on the phone to speak to a "manager". Wow.. nice time efficiency. And your time is so important that you have thousands of CB posts and the time to come here and whine about your experience. Pathetic, really.

    I can assure you the supervisor will just tell the rep that some people just don't understand how we do things. Your words will not get us in trouble unless we do something outside of policy. This was clearly policy and was followed correctly by the rep. If anything the rep got a pat on the back. The supervisor just told you that so you would shut up and get off the phone. Guarantee you the rep and the supervisor were both like "wtf?" when you hung up and then laughed about it later.

    I'd work in a call center till I'm 50 - have no problem with that. Promotions are handed to reps all the time. VZW has great benefits and most supervisors start out around $50-55k/year with no education to speak of. If you're good at your job you can make it there with 4-5 years time. Oh and then you can eventually work your way up to associate director and then director making 6 figures - yeah there are plenty of opportunities.
    10-07-09 01:04 AM
  25. anon(368121)'s Avatar
    You bought a POS, poorly designed phone at a deeply subsidized price, got it shipped for free, the carrier offers free tech support & you want to degrade the reps who answer the phone? I've purchased televisions that I paid over $10K for & didn't expect what you're demanding of the company who charged you $150 for a $500 phone.
    I think your TV analogy is a little flawed, Twins.

    Cell phones are the classic "give away the razors to sell the blades" model. Verizon isn't selling phones, they're selling services. You don't pay Runco, Pioneer or Hitachi a monthly fee to enjoy your television, and your cable/satellite provider certainly isn't, even partially, subsidizing the cost of your TV.

    I continue to pay for my BB every time I send VZW a check. The $150 price of admission is a drop in the bucket compared to the annualized cost of carrying a VZW phone.

    So what does the rest of that monthly charge go to pay for? Service. A good portion of that is infrastructure, but I think there's a reasonable expectation on the part of VZW customers that they'll get intelligent, responsible direction from VZW CSRs when something goes wrong. And far more often than not, they do.

    That doesn't mean it can't be done better, though. There's a common refrain when anyone announces they're switching to another carrier . . . "go ahead, you'll get what you pay for." Since Verizon has clearly decided that they're not going to be the cheapest wireless provider on the planet, I think it's fair that I should expect to get my money's worth for the premium I pay for their service. IMHO, Civic does have a point here. We should not be getting the same rigamarole from VZW that other carriers offer, and generally speaking, we don't. There are exceptions, though, and I think Civic banged into one.
    10-07-09 07:01 AM
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