01-01-11 10:11 PM
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  1. phuzion's Avatar
    If I found a way to use my phone as a FREE gps system and canceled my VZ navigator is that stealing? No, I am no longer using the VZW service.
    The phone is mine and what programs I decide to put in it and use are my business. All I am doing is finding a different way to transfer the data I already pay for.
    Apples to Oranges, man. The GPS network is maintained by an entity totally different than Verizon, they have no part in it whatsoever. Tethering, however, directly affects a network that Verizon spends millions of dollars maintaining. Verizon also pays money for the bandwidth that is consumed by tethering. GPS costs Verizon nothing.
    03-22-09 05:58 AM
  2. d6racer's Avatar
    Apples to Oranges, man. The GPS network is maintained by an entity totally different than Verizon, they have no part in it whatsoever. Tethering, however, directly affects a network that Verizon spends millions of dollars maintaining. Verizon also pays money for the bandwidth that is consumed by tethering. GPS costs Verizon nothing.
    Yes, but the point is, I already pay for unlimited Data usage.
    Yes, I am aware there is a soft cap but like I said, I would never even hit that.

    Basically, if I pay for tethering because it allows data to be transfered then I am in actuality paying twice for that data to be transfered.

    I can understand having to pay if you are not already on a data plan but data is data and it should not matter what type of data I transfer as long as I am within my 5gb.

    Again, you guys see it a different way. I see it as taking something I already pay for and using it differently. You guys see it as stealing something that I already pay for.

    I guess we will just agree to disagree at this point unless you can show me how it is stealing.
    03-22-09 06:16 AM
  3. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    The difference is that I already pay for data service.
    Yes, but you pay for data service for your phone. As phuzion said, apples & oranges. You don't have high burst demands with your BlackBerry that you'd have tethering.

    Besides, you signed an agreement, your word, that states you cannot use the service for tethering.

    You rent a car from Hertz with unlimited miles, but the contract specifically says you are not to race it or take it out of state. If you do, you are liable for hefty additional charges and your LDW is voided. You signed the contract and it is not up to you to interpret it that you can go to the next state & race it simply because you think you have unlimited miles. If you do this, you're in breach of contract.

    We will use your analogy.

    Lets say you are paying for cable and premiums but you only get the premiums on 1 TV and not the other because you only have one converter.
    You then find that same converter at the yard sale, buy it, and get your premiums that you are already paying for on the other TV. 100% legal

    I am already paying for data and just want to use what I already pay for on a different TV.
    Again, apples & oranges. You pay for those premium channels on the account, not per the TV set. If you choose to lease a box, buy one or use a card, that is all acceptable within the contract. What you're doing is hooking your neighbors up to your service, a direct violation of the contract.

    How about this, since we're on CATV - I get my CATV service, complete with about 400 channels. I can watch it 24X7 for that rate. But the rate does not include use like in a sports bar. To do that, you pay more.

    As I said before, you can rationalize it all you want, but tethering without a tethering plan is a violation of your contract on VZW, AT&T, Sprint, USCellular and others.



    When you sign a contract, you are giving your word you'll abide by the terms & conditions. Since you continue to rationalize & argue that the contract wording shouldn't apply to you, it is obvious your word isn't worth anything. When your word isn't worth anything, you are no better than a thief.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    03-22-09 06:18 AM
  4. d6racer's Avatar
    Against contract maybe, but stealing, I still do not agree with you.

    Use your rental analogy.
    Even though it says you can not take it out of state, if you do, it doesn't mean you stole it. If the care breaks down out of state, it is your duty to get it back.

    As far as the so called strain tethering put on the system vs just using the phone, I don't buy that. Besides, you don't know the insignificant amount of data I would be transferring. I guarantee you that all you guys posting from your crackberries constantly uses WAY more data and puts more of a strain on the network. So, thanks for driving my bill up. It it wasn't for you, maybe I could afford tethering service.
    03-22-09 06:40 AM
  5. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    You know, as I turned on the bigscreen & re-read this thread, it suddenly hit me.

    It's like I am trying to explain something to my grandchildren.

    Yeah, but... but... but...

    It has been explained many times by many people in this thread & others about what is within the contract & what isn't. Carrier reps have told of the ramifications that happen when someone breaks a contract. Yet there are those whose integrity is so lacking that they just have to ask a question, then argue in every way possible - yeah but - and when your explanation doesn't fit what they wanted to hear, they can't even pull together the logic to add two and two. They react much like young children do, putting together things that don't even come close to comparing with the situation or attacking the explanation using circular logic.

    You'd think everyone would outgrow this by age 12, but some just don't. Some never grow up and some never learn simple logic.

    Honestly, logic is secondary. I'd rather deal with an illogical soul who learned honesty, integrity and morals than I would a cheat who used logic. At least I could trust the former, even if they don't make sense.
    03-22-09 06:41 AM
  6. d6racer's Avatar
    I feel like I am talking to a senile old fart who has bad eye sight and can't remember what he has read.

    I am NOT disputing what is in the contract.

    The discussion is now on the moral issue of stealing.
    Against contract does not = stealing
    But thanks anyways.

    Like I said earlier, I suppose we will agree to disagree.
    03-22-09 06:50 AM
  7. phuzion's Avatar
    Against contract does not = stealing
    If the contract states "in order to x, you must y" it is theft.


    Theft of services is the legal term for a crime which is committed when a person obtains valuable services as opposed to goods by deception, force, threat or other unlawful means, i.e., without lawfully compensating the provider of said services. per wikipedia

    The contract states that in order to receive the ability to tether another device to your blackberry, you must pay for the tethering plan. Tethering by getting around this rule (ie: using tetherberry or another application) is deceptive to the service provider, as you are in breach of the contractual agreement you made with the company when you first received service. By definition, obtaining service by means of deception is theft of service.

    Do I need to explain this any further?
    03-22-09 07:21 AM
  8. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    I feel like I am talking to a senile old fart who has bad eye sight and can't remember what he has read.

    I am NOT disputing what is in the contract.

    The discussion is now on the moral issue of stealing.
    Against contract does not = stealing
    But thanks anyways.
    Um, little boy, allow me to recount your original post for you...
    Well, is there a way to tether this phone (8330) for free?
    I have unlimited minutes and data and in all honesty don't think it is fair that verizon charges extra to tether. ****, my phone bill is already $180 a month (I have nav too) and would like the to be able to connect my lap top on occasion when I am on the road even if it is a slow 56k
    Interesting - how YOU signed an agreement to get service and now YOU don't think it is fair and YOU have determined what is too much and YOU want to know how you can get away with something explicitly forbidden in the agreement YOU signed.

    Lets see here, in your warped, no personal responsibility world, it isn't stealing if you're doing it to Bill Gates, Warren Buffett or Richard Branson because it is unfair that them make so much money. I mean, after all, Gates' company charged you $99 to upgrade once, so now it is okay to pirate all future Windows versions, since you were charged once.

    Try telling a judge what you think is fair or the phone company when they present you with a four digit bill and your service is cut off and your credit is whacked. You signed an agreement and now you want to break what you agreed to - that is theft.

    A person commits the crime of theft of services if:

    1. He intentionally obtains services known by him to be available only for compensation by deception, threat, false token or other means to avoid payment for the services; or
    2. Having control over the disposition of services of others to which he is not entitled, he knowingly diverts those services to his own benefit or to the benefit of another not entitled to such services.


    You are the punk thief, who rationalizes things, with no morals, no integrity, no honor and zero capability for logic or intelligence. Every punk thief I've come across has tried that old argument - hey, it isn't stealing or hey, it isn't fair they make so much money or hey, I didn't do it or hey, prove to me what I did to be stealing.

    Your circular argument & denial of any responsibility, even for your own recorded words, is not only sad, it is scary.



    If the contract states "in order to x, you must y" it is theft.


    Theft of services is the legal term for a crime which is committed when a person obtains valuable services as opposed to goods by deception, force, threat or other unlawful means, i.e., without lawfully compensating the provider of said services. per wikipedia

    The contract states that in order to receive the ability to tether another device to your blackberry, you must pay for the tethering plan. Tethering by getting around this rule (ie: using tetherberry or another application) is deceptive to the service provider, as you are in breach of the contractual agreement you made with the company when you first received service. By definition, obtaining service by means of deception is theft of service.

    Do I need to explain this any further?
    No, because he possesses a thieving mind - probably hopeless. He will probably be back here in 100 days screaming how VZW turned off every line he has, in fact the whole account, because he wasn't stealing service from them and they caught him - and he will go on about how they changed his billing to a per kb thing which he says is illegal since he pays for unlimited data and even if he does pay them the $4000 bill, they will still want a deposit to restart his service...

    People like this clown aren't worth the paper I flush. They certainly don't deserve any extra time wasted on their sorry selves. Their parents should be ashamed.
    03-22-09 02:32 PM
  9. lastraid's Avatar
    DANG! Anyone on have a spare flack jacket
    03-22-09 03:17 PM
  10. spark09223's Avatar
    The discussion is now on the moral issue of stealing.
    Against contract does not = stealing
    YOU ARE WRONG. This isn't something you can dispute. The law says that you are wrong. If you do something against the contract, you are stealing their service. With the rental car analogy, if you take the car out of a state when you promised not to, you ARE stealing their service.

    AND, just because you find VZW's pricing plan unethical or unreasonable, that doesn't give you the right to go break the contract you signed. Whether you find the contract, there's no way you can justify what you wish to do.
    Last edited by spark09223; 03-22-09 at 05:20 PM.
    03-22-09 05:16 PM
  11. d6racer's Avatar
    Ok, fine, I am wrong, I am a thief and punk kid with no morals blah blah blah.

    Now if the righteous police will leave the building, is there a way to steal internet service and tether the phone for free?
    03-22-09 11:04 PM
  12. d6racer's Avatar
    YOU ARE WRONG. This isn't something you can dispute. The law says that you are wrong. If you do something against the contract, you are stealing their service. With the rental car analogy, if you take the car out of a state when you promised not to, you ARE stealing their service.
    Actually no, you are wrong. I actually have a little background in this as I used to work for a rental car agency years ago. You are not stealing any services what so ever. The reason for the out of state clause is that you except all responsibility to get the car back to them if it breaks down. It has to do with that if you rent the car in Florida and drive it to Cali, they have to get the car back some how. Well, instead of assuming the cost of up to a grand to ship the car vs a up to $100 to tow it to a shop and have it repaired then go pick it up they put that clause in it. It is not stealing if you do take it else where, it just means you have to pay the cost of getting it back. It is just a CYA clause.

    But anyways, that does matter as I am a dishonorable lying punk thief and have no morals. Just ask the old lady I mugged 15 minutes ago for her pension check.
    03-22-09 11:13 PM
  13. vzwty's Avatar
    Yes, but you pay for data service for your phone. As phuzion said, apples & oranges. You don't have high burst demands with your BlackBerry that you'd have tethering.

    Besides, you signed an agreement, your word, that states you cannot use the service for tethering.

    You rent a car from Hertz with unlimited miles, but the contract specifically says you are not to race it or take it out of state. If you do, you are liable for hefty additional charges and your LDW is voided. You signed the contract and it is not up to you to interpret it that you can go to the next state & race it simply because you think you have unlimited miles. If you do this, you're in breach of contract.



    Again, apples & oranges. You pay for those premium channels on the account, not per the TV set. If you choose to lease a box, buy one or use a card, that is all acceptable within the contract. What you're doing is hooking your neighbors up to your service, a direct violation of the contract.

    How about this, since we're on CATV - I get my CATV service, complete with about 400 channels. I can watch it 24X7 for that rate. But the rate does not include use like in a sports bar. To do that, you pay more.

    As I said before, you can rationalize it all you want, but tethering without a tethering plan is a violation of your contract on VZW, AT&T, Sprint, USCellular and others.



    When you sign a contract, you are giving your word you'll abide by the terms & conditions. Since you continue to rationalize & argue that the contract wording shouldn't apply to you, it is obvious your word isn't worth anything. When your word isn't worth anything, you are no better than a thief.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Where in the verizon wireless service contract does it say "you can't tether your bb?" Im not seeing it in the customer agreements that we have customers sign. Not saying its right or wrong just wondering where it says that.
    03-23-09 04:12 PM
  14. vzwty's Avatar
    Nevermind found it on the website. Here it is:

    Unlimited PDA/Smartphone and BlackBerry Plans:
    Data sessions may be used for following purposes: (i) Internet browsing; (ii) email; and (iii) intranet access (including access to corporate intranets, email and individual productivity applications like customer relationship management, sales force and field service automation. Intranet access requires the BlackBerry Enterprise Server.). Unlimited plans are for individual use only and not for resale. The Unlimited plans cannot be used: (1) for any applications that tether the device to laptops, PCs, or other equipment for any purpose, (2) for uploading, downloading or streaming of movies, music or games, (3) with server devices or with host computer applications other than the BlackBerry Enterprise Server, including, without limitation, Web camera posts or broadcasts, continuous jpeg file transfers, automatic data feeds, telemetry applications, automated functions or any other machine-to-machine applications, (4) as substitute or backup for private lines or dedicated data connections.
    Data sessions automatically terminate after two hours of inactivity unless used with a Mobile IP-capable device. We reserve the right to deny or terminate service, without notice, to anyone who uses the Unlimited plan in any manner prohibited above or whose usage adversely impacts our network or service levels. We also reserve the right to terminate service upon expiration of Customer Agreement term.

    PDA/Smartphone and BlackBerry Megabyte Features:
    Megabyte allowance and charges for kilobytes over the monthly allowance apply to data sessions; all other usage charged in accordance with Calling Plan. Data sessions are rounded to next full kilobyte at end of each billing cycle. Only total of kilobytes transmitted above allowance each billing cycle may appear on bill. You are responsible for all charges, including all data sent and received and "overhead" whether or not you or your recipients actually receive the data. Overhead is all data that is in addition to user-transmitted data, such as control, operational and routing instructions, error-checking characters as well as retransmissions of user-data messages that are received in error. Any unused portion of the megabyte allowance is lost.

    Important Information Regarding Wireless Sync:
    Compatible NationalAccess-capable or BroadbandAccess-capable PDA required. Not available for NationalAccess-, non-NationalAccess-, BroadbandAccess-, or non-BroadbandAccess-capable PC Cards or for other wireless modems such as mobile devices tethered to PCs. The monthly allowance applies only to NationalAccess or BroadbandAccess data transmissions, not to voice or other types of data transmissions such as TXT Messaging, Picture Messaging, Video Messaging, Get it Now and Mobile Web. You can use Wireless Sync on the Verizon Wireless digital network, but if you do so, you will be charged at the "other data" rate. You select which network your Wireless Sync will function on in your Internet settings. In order to use Wireless Sync, your PC must be on and in a condition to receive email.

    The BlackBerry Solution from Verizon Wireless:
    The email capability of the BlackBerry Wireless Handheld functions only within the Verizon Wireless National Enhanced Services Rate and Coverage Area. Verizon Wireless NationalAccess service is not available with the BlackBerry Solution. With BlackBerry Handheld software version 3.6, the first 2 kilobytes (KB) of each email are initially received on the BlackBerry and you can simply request to receive additional 2-KB increments. Some email attachments (Microsoft Word, Excel, PowerPoint, Corel WordPerfect, Adobe PDF, and ASCII text) are delivered to the BlackBerry when requested by the end user. Graphics are not delivered to the BlackBerry. When the BlackBerry reaches its storage capacity, email stored on the handheld will automatically be deleted from it, starting with the oldest emails first. BlackBerry Desktop Software using desktop redirector does not support POP3 or ISP email accounts.

    The BlackBerry and RIM families of related marks, images and symbols are the exclusive properties of and trademarks or registered trademarks of Research In Motion Limited-used by permission.


    Last Update 1/6/09

    Interesting enough, the contract we print for the customer does NOT say any of that. I understand that would be alot to put on a contract but it should mention something on there when a customer activates a BB. It does not. So technically speaking what the customer signs is different from what is posted on the website. How many people look at the terms and conditions on a website before purchasing a plan or phone?

    Note it also says no streaming of music but how many of us use pandora or slacker??
    Last edited by vzwty; 03-23-09 at 04:33 PM.
    03-23-09 04:30 PM
  15. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    Note it also says no streaming of music but how many of us use pandora or slacker??
    I've noticed that, too - the no streaming part. What a VZW engineer explained to me is that is in reference to server operations where you're streaming the entire file, mostly outgoing. Incoming, low bandwidth stuff like Pandora/Slacker/iHeartRadio is overlooked by VZW as it keeps use to the BlackBerry device and does not threaten the network. Still, they maintain the wording to protect against true streaming apps, where a single song may be 10MB.

    As far as the printed contracts go, I looked at some of them I've received. Some mention the terthering prohibition and others don't. But each version does make mention that the entire agreement is available online or by request and that you are agreeing to the entire contract.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    03-23-09 04:48 PM
  16. vzwty's Avatar
    I've noticed that, too - the no streaming part. What a VZW engineer explained to me is that is in reference to server operations where you're streaming the entire file, mostly outgoing. Incoming, low bandwidth stuff like Pandora/Slacker/iHeartRadio is overlooked by VZW as it keeps use to the BlackBerry device and does not threaten the network. Still, they maintain the wording to protect against true streaming apps, where a single song may be 10MB.

    As far as the printed contracts go, I looked at some of them I've received. Some mention the terthering prohibition and others don't. But each version does make mention that the entire agreement is available online or by request and that you are agreeing to the entire contract.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    True they usually do mail a copy of the terms and condition. I could see a problem though with them not putting it on the contract the customer signs.
    03-23-09 05:41 PM
  17. d6racer's Avatar
    I've noticed that, too - the no streaming part. What a VZW engineer explained to me is that is in reference to server operations where you're streaming the entire file, mostly outgoing. Incoming, low bandwidth stuff like Pandora/Slacker/iHeartRadio is overlooked by VZW as it keeps use to the BlackBerry device and does not threaten the network. Still, they maintain the wording to protect against true streaming apps, where a single song may be 10MB.
    It is not for a VZ engineer to determine the contract and seeing as you are aware of that being in there you have been stealing services. Sure, the file size off Pandora might not be as big, but the contract that you signed clearly states no streaming.

    Of course, you justified it in your head so I am sure you sleep fine at night.

    Sorry, just needed to play devils advocate to the self righteous.

    So, I suppose just about everyone here is a punk thief.
    Either that, or you just justified the once in a blue moon (once a month if that) that I open a web page that transfers very little data to simply print out a work order is actually ok.
    03-23-09 06:16 PM
  18. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    It is not for a VZ engineer to determine the contract and seeing as you are aware of that being in there you have been stealing services. Sure, the file size off Pandora might not be as big, but the contract that you signed clearly states no streaming..
    You're a two-bit lowlife troublemaker, aren't you? The type lacking intelligence or education who tries to find outlandish things in an attempt to make himself feel like a big boy.

    VZW engineers do not make policy, but they are certainly more able to explain the why's & how's as to the inner workings than would be someone who rationalizes that his dishonest ways are acceptable.

    To paraphrase WC Fields & Clint Eastwood, Go away punk, you bother me.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    03-23-09 06:26 PM
  19. d6racer's Avatar
    You're a two-bit lowlife troublemaker, aren't you? The type lacking intelligence or education who tries to find outlandish things in an attempt to make himself feel like a big boy.
    Yup, you got me pegged

    VZW engineers do not make policy, but they are certainly more able to explain the why's & how's as to the inner workings than would be someone who rationalizes that his dishonest ways are acceptable.
    Whatever makes you sleep better at night.

    However, the contract YOU signed says NO streaming.
    It does not say no streaming unless.....


    To paraphrase WC Fields & Clint Eastwood, Go away punk, you bother me.
    You are in my thread and if I am bothering that much, you are welcome to leave.

    However, I guess it goes to show, those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
    03-23-09 06:35 PM
  20. crisd's Avatar
    According to the TOS, streaming music and video, is just as much a violation of your contract as tethering is. Just because it's a flavor of contract breach you can get on board with, it doesn't make it any more compliant to the TOS.

    So all you ladies and gentlemen guilty of streaming music or YouTubing on you BB, and interpret breach of contract as theft, please report to your nearest wireless carrier's location. You will be asked pull your pants down to your knees and receive the a**whipping(12 lashes or what your local rep interprets form your TOS) you brought upon yourself.

    This thread really justifies attorney fees, if cases in court would be litigated in this manner, all cases would take 10 years to get to verdict

    Remember, TOS's are for the most part written by attorneys as a contingency. Not that they will come after you, but it gives them avenue if deemed necessary.
    Last edited by crisd; 03-23-09 at 07:11 PM.
    03-23-09 06:58 PM
  21. d6racer's Avatar
    03-23-09 07:24 PM
  22. vzwty's Avatar
    Wow this thead has become heated! Goes to pop a bag of popcorn..
    03-23-09 07:31 PM
  23. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    Wow this thead has become heated! Goes to pop a bag of popcorn..
    Nah- as is obvious, I enjoy pissing off (and on) the bozos. And someone who thinks he owns a thread where he asked a way to steal is definitely a bozo.

    Enjoy your popcorn.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    03-23-09 07:35 PM
  24. d6racer's Avatar
    Nah- as is obvious, I enjoy pissing off (and on) the bozos. And someone who thinks he owns a thread where he asked a way to steal is definitely a bozo.
    LMAO, if you actually think you have pissed me off, then you are dumber then I thought.

    However, somebody that bitches about people stealing then tries to justify their own stealing is not only a bozo but a hypocrite.

    So what have we determine in this thread?

    Apparently you are everything I am and a hypocrite
    03-23-09 07:44 PM
  25. crisd's Avatar
    mmmm... popcorn... dammit, my ADD just kicked my OCD into overdrive and can think of nothing but popcorn. Doom on you vzwty. Of course there's none in the house. What was this thread about anyway?
    03-23-09 08:05 PM
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