1. theruined's Avatar
    This is all derived from my notes taken during a 30 minute presentation I sat through today in Southern California at a VZW + ViewSonic Business Tech gathering...

    The reason for my creating a new post is primarily because the last post referencing 4G turned into an off-topic flame. Secondly because I think this needs to be clarified and not linked to a NBC news story about SPRINT 4G in the VZW section



    Landscape

    • Vodaphone (45% minority holder of Verizon interests) and Verizon will consolidate over 130 carriers world wide to streamline the cellular industry. The argument here is global travel - VZW and Vodaphone will make this easier by creating a blanketed 4G network that will have no carrier earmark so that you can travel at your leisure without having to switch carriers, phones, or worry about overseas charges (this surprised me too)
    • Global compatibility of towers and signal will result in a homogeneous network -- Think of traveling to anywhere in Europe and not having to change phones, plans, add on features, etc...one big blanket of coverage - yes, this is the future


    Benefits of 4G

    • 5-12mpbs down 2-5mbps up () They even demoed the speed test on a new 4G wireless card they had, they guarantee these speeds folks.
    • Latency 30-150ms (50ms outgoing ping when online gaming locally)

    Infrastructure

    • 700MHz frequency


    • Essentially when the government closed down the "white space" for analog TV signal (he result now evident for those using the DTV set-tops) VZW bought up pretty much the entire band


    • Now a quick physics lesson - as far as wavelength goes, the shorter the wavelength (the greater the magnitude) the higher the frequency (or repetition of the waves.) VZW is using the 700MHz band which, as you will see, essentially beats out the competition by improving their coverage areas with longer wavelengths which (as we've seen with analog TV in the past) is more capable of transporting high loads of data with ease.


    • WiMax, for example, is going to utilize the 2500MHz which means the exact opposite for Sprint customers - smaller coverage areas, higher frequency = shorter wavelength which means smaller coverage areas = more towers needed [point further explained after a quick edit - thanks the_sandman_454]. This essentially gives Sprint greener towers than VZW, but who cares?!
    • AT&T (and by way of AT&T, T-Mobile) customers may be better off than Sprint since AT&T will combine 3 bands to create their 4G network (it seems that they brought a knife to a gun fight)

      They'll be using the 700MHz, 1200MHz, and 1700MHz bands creating varying coverage (I think I remember something like 20-30% of their towers utilize the 700MHz band, yea they cover 96% of America, but how well?)

    • Big Red will be using the same towers that they use now, upgrading the power and output which means better coverage areas with concentric overlapping - no more dead zones found with 3G coverage (yay! for in home users without 3G coverage - like myself and I'm sure a few others out there)
    • Sprint will, unfortunately, have to build new towers to provide their 4G (WiMax) network - this could take much longer than 3 years, and cost Sprint users a lot more $$$.

      The reason being - they actually didn't buy as much of the white space as Big Red AND by comparison, running at a 1700MHz frequency will yield a smaller radius of coverage (alledgedly even smaller than their current 3G setup )

      Remember VZW bought over 95% of the white space...and double covered major metropolitian areas with current and anticipated growth projections.

    • VZW deployment anticipates a 3-Year road map for full (and extensive) deployment, with improved pricing, built in pricing for current 3G users - which means for smart phones you're going to be paying around the same for your plan - unlike Sprint.

      The argument here, and I made sure to ask why so much for GBs?? Big Red is trying to gauge usage by it's customers...$50 seemed like a pretty decent pricepoint to benchmark their brand new network (now officially the biggest 4G network in America -since no one else has launched anything comparable.)

      So expect pricing to drop soon, before it's moved onto the smartphone market...(and the question asked here by some ppl on the forum) How about 3G? 3G will always be there...4G is backwards compatible since they're not changing the towers, just the output. What this means is your 3G phones will still work...just like there are still some analog phones out there...(despite what you may think, there really are)

    • As of Sunday December 5th, VZW deployed their 4G wireless network in the NFL cities across the US (Yes, that means you Tampa, Jacksonville, and Cleveland ) as well as major metropolitan areas without football teams (Los Angeles )


    Essentially...4G for Verizon is priced at $10 a GB and geared (as of now) more towards small businesses, power users, and small enterprise rollouts. It is quite fast as I had the chance to play around with it for a good 20 minutes. As an old 3G wireless user for VZW I'd say it certinaly raises the bar.

    For all you skeptics, this 4G rollout, as it stands, is solely for Wireless (Cellular) Connectivity for laptops, tablets (with USB ports - nice job Apple/Samsung), and even home PCs

    This may seem like propaganda, which it might as well could've been, but I know I'm pumped and with a 3-Year road map for FULL US coverage (major cities around 6mo-1yr) even those without wired connectivity for cable or DSL can have 4G if Verizon services your area (and judging by the map they previewed today, it's everywhere )

    Cheers
    Last edited by theruined; 01-05-11 at 09:51 AM.
    Gawain, timberdc and drjay868 like this.
    12-08-10 08:05 PM
  2. the_sandman_454's Avatar
    This is all derived from my notes taken during a 30 minute presentation I sat through today in Southern California at a VZW + ViewSonic Business Tech gathering...

    The reason for my creating a new post is primarily because the last post referencing 4G turned into an off-topic flame. Secondly because I think this needs to be clarified and not linked to a NBC news story about SPRINT 4G in the VZW section



    Landscape

    • Vodaphone (47% majority holder of Verizon interests) and Verizon will consolidate over 130 carriers world wide to streamline the cellular industry. The argument here is global travel - VZW and Vodaphone will make this easier by creating a blanketed 4G network that will have no carrier earmark so that you can travel at your leisure without having to switch carriers, phones, or worry about overseas charges (this surprised me too)
    • Global compatibility of towers and signal will result in a homogeneous network -- Think of traveling to anywhere in Europe and not having to change phones, plans, add on features, etc...one big blanket of coverage - yes, this is the future


    Benefits of 4G

    • 5-12mpbs down 2-5mbps up () They even demoed the speed test on a new 4G wireless card they had, they guarantee these speeds folks.
    • Latency 30-150ms (50ms outgoing ping when online gaming locally)

    Infrastructure

    • 700MHz wavelength


    • Essentially when the government closed down the "white space" for analog TV signal (he result now evident for those using the DTV set-tops) VZW bought up pretty much the entire wavelength


    • Now a quick physics lesson - as far as wavelength goes, the shorter the wavelength the higher the frequency (or repetition of the waves.) VZW is using the 700MHz band which, as you will see, essentially beats out the competition.


    • WiMax, for example, is going to utilize the 2500MHz which means the exact opposite for Sprint customers - smaller coverage areas, lower frequency (greener towers than VZW, but who cares?!).
    • AT&T (and by way of AT&T, T-Mobile) customers may be better off than Sprint since AT&T will combine 3 bands to create their 4G network (it seems that they brought a knife to a gun fight)

      They'll be using the 700MHz, 1200MHz, and 1700MHz bands creating varying coverage (I think I remember something like 20-30% of their towers utilize the 700MHz band, yea they cover 96% of America, but how well?)

    • Big Red will be using the same towers that they use now, upgrading the power and output which means better coverage areas with concentric overlapping - no more dead zones found with 3G coverage (yay! for in home users without 3G coverage - like myself and I'm sure a few others out there)
    • Sprint will, unfortunately, have to build new towers to provide their 4G (WiMax) network - this could take much longer than 3 years, and cost Sprint users a lot more $$$.

      The reason being - they actually didn't buy as much of the white space as Big Red AND by comparison, running at a 1700MHz wavelength will yield a smaller radius of coverage (alledgedly even smaller than their current 3G setup )

      Remember VZW bought over 95% of the white space...and double covered major metropolitian areas with current and anticipated growth projections.

    • VZW deployment anticipates a 3-Year road map for full (and extensive) deployment, with improved pricing, built in pricing for current 3G users - which means for smart phones you're going to be paying around the same for your plan - unlike Sprint.

      The argument here, and I made sure to ask why so much for GBs?? Big Red is trying to gauge usage by it's customers...$50 seemed like a pretty decent pricepoint to benchmark their brand new network (now officially the biggest 4G network in America -since no one else has launched anything comparable.)

      So expect pricing to drop soon, before it's moved onto the smartphone market...(and the question asked here by some ppl on the forum) How about 3G? 3G will always be there...4G is backwards compatible since they're not changing the towers, just the output. What this means is your 3G phones will still work...just like there are still some analog phones out there...(despite what you may think, there really are)

    • As of Sunday December 5th, VZW deployed their 4G wireless network in the NFL cities across the US (Yes, that means you Tampa, Jacksonville, and Cleveland ) as well as major metropolitan areas without football teams (Los Angeles )


    Essentially...4G for Verizon is priced at $10 a GB and geared (as of now) more towards small businesses, power users, and small enterprise rollouts. It is quite fast as I had the chance to play around with it for a good 20 minutes. As an old 3G wireless user for VZW I'd say it certinaly raises the bar.

    For all you skeptics, this 4G rollout, as it stands, is solely for Wireless (Cellular) Connectivity for laptops, tablets (with USB ports - nice job Apple/Samsung), and even home PCs

    This may seem like propaganda, which it might as well could've been, but I know I'm pumped and with a 3-Year road map for FULL US coverage (major cities around 6mo-1yr) even those without wired connectivity for cable or DSL can have 4G if Verizon services your area (and judging by the map they previewed today, it's everywhere )

    Cheers
    One minor thing: if I'm remembering my physics lessons correctly, 2500mhz is a higher frequency and has a shorter wavelength than 700mhz. I think you had it backwards in your post.

    Longer wavelength signals are expected to have an easier time penetrating things like buildings, trees, etc, so the lower the frequency, the greater the chance you'll be able to get signals while inside a structure.

    Edited: I noticed after re-reading that what I was pointing out that was in error was that under wimax's description you mentioned it was lower frequency when in fact you probably meant it has a shorter wavelength.
    Last edited by the_sandman_454; 12-08-10 at 09:43 PM.
    12-08-10 09:34 PM
  3. theruined's Avatar
    One minor thing: if I'm remembering my physics lessons correctly, 2500mhz is a higher frequency and has a shorter wavelength than 700mhz. I think you had it backwards in your post.

    Longer wavelength signals are expected to have an easier time penetrating things like buildings, trees, etc, so the lower the frequency, the greater the chance you'll be able to get signals while inside a structure.

    Edited: I noticed after re-reading that what I was pointing out that was in error was that under wimax's description you mentioned it was lower frequency when in fact you probably meant it has a shorter wavelength.
    Indeed, the WiMax portion was incorrect, my apologies...xD physics on the fly - I shouldn't be stating physical properties of waves - I was a C student in physics

    Thanks!
    12-08-10 10:00 PM
  4. Gawain's Avatar
    Nice post and thanks for the info. One minor detail - Vodafone is a minority holder of Verizon Wireless (Cellco Partnership LLC). However, you addressed an issue which I thought was long overdue - streamlining global roaming, since Vodafone is like the second biggest carrier in the world. So, that's pretty cool and it's about time that VZW harnessed that resource.

    The C-Block that VZW bought I thought was all 700MHz. Can you give an idea about how many markets that block covers, and did they talk about where 1700/2100MHz markets would be, and were they swapped with other carriers?

    Did they talk about power management for devices, once they become available, that use LTE? Will they use LTE for voice and data? Data only? A little of both?
    12-09-10 12:32 AM
  5. theruined's Avatar
    Nice post and thanks for the info. One minor detail - Vodafone is a minority holder of Verizon Wireless (Cellco Partnership LLC). However, you addressed an issue which I thought was long overdue - streamlining global roaming, since Vodafone is like the second biggest carrier in the world. So, that's pretty cool and it's about time that VZW harnessed that resource.
    Indeed...it's been a long day

    The C-Block that VZW bought I thought was all 700MHz. Can you give an idea about how many markets that block covers, and did they talk about where 1700/2100MHz markets would be, and were they swapped with other carriers?
    It is all 700MHz literally all across the US minus very rural areas. Major cities and regions have double coverage - the example they gave was that if 4G is a 5 lane highway, the double coverage would allow them to later upgrade that coverage area to a 10 lane highway, where as AT&T and Sprint using the higher frequency towers would be laying a 2 lane highway with the option to upgrade to a 5 lane highway-

    It's AT&T that's using the mixed band cell towers due to purchasing power and poor planning...the residual markets would be for T-Mobile, and Sprint would use the 2500MHz band.

    VZW will dominate LTE entirely in the US - everyone else is "WiMax"

    Did they talk about power management for devices, once they become available, that use LTE? Will they use LTE for voice and data? Data only? A little of both?
    Power management as far as what? LTE will be voice and seamless data - i.e. downloads at the same time (or at least that's what I gathered) but for now LTE is strictly data with a rollout on voice plans mid-late 2011
    12-09-10 02:16 AM
  6. skyboxer's Avatar
    I had read (somewhere) that the plan was to use voice over data, but they were still working the kinks out. That was a while ago, and may not be the case anymore. I had read that they tried the same with 3G but was unable to make it work. The power consumption is a very good question, especially since the GSM phones currently kick CDMA backside in battery life.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    12-09-10 02:29 AM
  7. theruined's Avatar
    I don't think we'll have an answer for that until it launches full force and phone developers have a chance to figure out how they can better manage battery life and maintain a strong radio signal...That's more of a "time will tell" kinda thing that I don't even think vzw would even consider let alone try and answer...

    although it is fun watching a vzw tech developer struggle to answer questions to which there are no answer
    12-09-10 09:55 AM
  8. bigsteveatt's Avatar
    I think this is a lot of propaganda, and I'll tell you why. Vodafone's other networks (and in fact most networks in the rest of the world) are GSM. So for this international compatibility to work, Verizon would have to either make all of their phones CDMA and GSM compatible (thus increasing price) or switch everything over to GSM. Neither of which do I see happening in 3 years.

    Now as far as the whole frequency think goes, I'm not following. Higher frequencies have shorter wavelengths. The higher frequencies are capable of carrying more data at higher speeds. The shorter wavelengths also make it more difficult to penetrate buildings and the like. You're saying that VZW's 4G network in the 700 band will have better coverage AND higher speeds than anyone else. Unfortunately, this just isn't possible.

    Public safety agencies have switched over to mostly 800 mhz systems. This allows them to utilize digital transmissions and have more channels (or talkgroups) than before with fewer purchased frequencies. The downfall, however, is the the coverage and penetration are inferior.

    If all of the other information you've provided is correct, you're right on several points. VZW will have better coverage with fewer towers and better penetration. With those features, however, comes slower speeds. ATT and TMo will have higher speeds but not so great coverage.

    I obviously am on ATT, but don't take this as VZW bashing. This is why people in more rural areas get better ATT coverage than those in rural areas. The opposite is often true for VZW users. VZW has made some serious strides. However, if they really want to make some serious international strides, they'll have to start incorporating more advanced technologies.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    12-09-10 11:34 AM
  9. Gawain's Avatar
    Power management as far as what? LTE will be voice and seamless data - i.e. downloads at the same time (or at least that's what I gathered) but for now LTE is strictly data with a rollout on voice plans mid-late 2011
    Power management as far as battery life of the devices, would an LTE version of a given handset have similar/better/worse battery life than their EV-DO counterpart?
    12-09-10 11:36 AM
  10. theruined's Avatar
    I think this is a lot of propaganda, and I'll tell you why. Vodafone's other networks (and in fact most networks in the rest of the world) are GSM. So for this international compatibility to work, Verizon would have to either make all of their phones CDMA and GSM compatible (thus increasing price) or switch everything over to GSM. Neither of which do I see happening in 3 years.
    True, but, there are several bands of GSM at varying frequencies. Running dual band on one tower is being done now, why can't it be done in the future - Vodafone uses the 1800MHz band - switching to a 700MHz would be simple, and running dual band = very possible...I don't see the dilemma you've presented here

    Now as far as the whole frequency think goes, I'm not following. Higher frequencies have shorter wavelengths. The higher frequencies are capable of carrying more data at higher speeds. The shorter wavelengths also make it more difficult to penetrate buildings and the like. You're saying that VZW's 4G network in the 700 band will have better coverage AND higher speeds than anyone else. Unfortunately, this just isn't possible.
    You wanna know why this is possible? It's due in part to the fact that AT&T will be using mixed frequencies and when you mix frequencies, what happens? That statement was used to convey the idea that they'd have a higher speed based on consistency and longevity, not physicality.

    I struggle to cope with your statement saying it's not possible when it truly is, and physics has proven time and time again the shorter wavelength prevails in our modern day world...

    Yes penetration will still suffer, but you gotta remember at the 700MHz range they have little to NO interference....800MHz is competing with more competing radio frequencies and other interferences which means you're limited in the scope of a cellular operation so that's like comparing apples to oranges here....

    The 700MHz range is completely blank...

    Dissipation is a function of interference, take the dissipation of the energy of waves - a theory that waves decay at a faster rate the more they are interfered with. Higher frequencies create more traffic, thus, create more interference - for example if you turn on your Bluetooth (a low energy - high frequency device) it could theoretically interfere with your cellular connection because of radio interference...I'm sure this won't happen with a BT device but it could...

    I could get really technical here and introduce the Fourier Transform theory and how higher frequency waves suffer from higher signal degradation due to dissipation, but I won't - unless I have to

    I obviously am on ATT, but don't take this as VZW bashing. This is why people in more rural areas get better ATT coverage than those in rural areas. The opposite is often true for VZW users. VZW has made some serious strides. However, if they really want to make some serious international strides, they'll have to start incorporating more advanced technologies.
    I don't take it as a bashing...it's a carrier and I'm not a fanboi, especially when I pay them good money for (currently) shoddy indoor reception. With that being said, I love discussing these things because it reduces ignorance and brings intellectuals together, so by all means continue!

    You're right in the sense they need to step up the international game, but I think that's up to Vodafone and hopefully a global network can eliminate the need for anything other than a cell phone in the near future. I'm excited to see this turf war progress between the various carriers

    Cheers!
    12-09-10 12:28 PM
  11. JRZLocal's Avatar
    The 4G aircards verizon offers do use sim cards so it would make sense that the 4G phones will also have sim cards I dunno what this will mean as far as cdma vs gsm but I guess we'll see when the phones are released.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    12-09-10 12:46 PM
  12. bigsteveatt's Avatar
    The 4G aircards verizon offers do use sim cards so it would make sense that the 4G phones will also have sim cards I dunno what this will mean as far as cdma vs gsm but I guess we'll see when the phones are released.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    It may have a SIM slot and may even include a SIM card. This is, presumably, to allow international roaming. GSM uses a SIM card, while CDMA uses an ESN number inside the phone. VZW does not have a GSM network. Now, if VZW were to introduce a GSM network, on any band, ATT would have some serious problems. I don't know about current VZW phones, but those non-smartphones I've used in the past had user interfaces that were far inferior to any other major US carrier.

    This entire discussion is moot, of course, because clearly VZW is far ahead of the game as far as 4G development goes. Sprint is in the right frame of mind, but the OP has already explained the pitfalls of WiMax. Not to mention the fact that Sprint's device development has consistently fallen short of other carriers.
    12-09-10 01:31 PM
  13. drjay868's Avatar
    Awesome info. I used to work for VZW in college so some of this I've heard. However, there was a lot that was new (things change a LOT in 6-7 years) and the refresher course was appreciated (both VZW info and my college physics lessons!).
    12-09-10 04:06 PM
  14. drjay868's Avatar
    A question tho.... I thought LTE was an evolution of GSM? Yet it's still backwards compatible with CDMA, something that's not compatible with GSM...

    Or was I mixed up somewhere in the last 6-7 years?
    12-09-10 04:08 PM
  15. theruined's Avatar
    A question tho.... I thought LTE was an evolution of GSM? Yet it's still backwards compatible with CDMA, something that's not compatible with GSM...

    Or was I mixed up somewhere in the last 6-7 years?
    Yes, it is an evolution in the 3GPP - GSM family of things...it is kind of a logical step by Verzion by finally shifting over since it is a globally accepted standard and CDMA is basically limiting their capabilities since there is a ceiling to the expansion of CDMA as it would take a lot more to push the service to evolve as fast as LTE.

    It doesn't have to be backwards compatible, they will be using dual band towers and phones that have CDMA + LTE radio antenna
    12-09-10 07:16 PM
  16. tech_head's Avatar
    I think this is a lot of propaganda, and I'll tell you why. Vodafone's other networks (and in fact most networks in the rest of the world) are GSM. So for this international compatibility to work, Verizon would have to either make all of their phones CDMA and GSM compatible (thus increasing price) or switch everything over to GSM. Neither of which do I see happening in 3 years.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Actually you are incorrect.
    Verizon LTE is not CDMA, It's more akin to GSM.
    Verizon and AT&T have adopted similar LTE implementations.
    12-09-10 07:29 PM
  17. drjay868's Avatar
    Yes, it is an evolution in the 3GPP - GSM family of things...it is kind of a logical step by Verzion by finally shifting over since it is a globally accepted standard and CDMA is basically limiting their capabilities since there is a ceiling to the expansion of CDMA as it would take a lot more to push the service to evolve as fast as LTE.

    It doesn't have to be backwards compatible, they will be using dual band towers and phones that have CDMA + LTE radio antenna
    Ok... That's what I thought. With everyone saying it is backwards compatible, I was a little confused. Instead, its just dual band. Not really a big deal as both are going to give the end user the same results. Just had me scratching my head a bit.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Last edited by drjay868; 12-09-10 at 10:33 PM.
    12-09-10 10:31 PM
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