04-18-09 02:25 PM
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  1. howie's Avatar
    Verizon doesn't have a monopoly over GPS. They sale their own service for it. It's like eating at McDonalds and saying they have a monopoly over Big Mac's because you want a Whopper or a ThickBurger....

    If you want more choices, you have them... Go to Sprint, AT&T, T-Mobile... Choices are everywhere, just open your eyes.
    Completely agree.

    Are all the other GPS navigators on the market free??? Since when are we crying out for a free option????????????????

    WE WANT CHOICE!!! THE CHIP WAS INVENTED WITH CHOICE IN MIND!!! I support capitolism and verizon needs to compete for my money, and without the competition, what initiative do they have to improve the navigator and make it the best it can be???? DONE! Theres no competition! ITS CALLED A MONOLPLY!!! Microsoft tried that and they lost! If the government got involved, verizon would lose too!
    Actually it was not invented for navigation as it is used today, but to assist in 911 calls. That is why it was invented, because of a mandate by the government to include it. Therefore they are doing nothing wrong by limiting it to VZNav. They did what the government told them to do, include a location system for 911 calls. It's just that people are expanding the applications to use that, but Verizon is not "screwing" anyone or violating any monopoly regulations by sticking to the "intended purpose" as the government set out.
    11-29-08 11:42 AM
  2. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    I dont know why people are making such an arguement against their own interest!
    11-29-08 11:43 AM
  3. howie's Avatar
    Not that I don't think it would be nice for Verizon to stop their practice, but I am 100% against lawsuits. They have gotten way out of hand in this country. There are better ways to get the message to companies than to make them lose a case in court which will cost them hundreds of millions in USD which will be passed on to the customer. Very stupid.

    Boycott is the only practical way to do things without screwing BOTH parties. You don't want to leave because of coverage, or family/friends IN call, then fine don't leave, but don't cry about what Verizon does or does not do if you CHOOSE to join/stay. That is more "lame" (as another person said about leaving). Don't join someone if you don't agree with them/their policies.

    Again, I think it would be nice to use Google Maps like other carriers allow, but I don't care to use my phone for navigation, so not a bother to me. That is why I bought a GPS unit - you bought a phone that does what it was designed to do - place calls, use data, and assist in 911 services locating you.
    11-29-08 11:49 AM
  4. GeekNJ's Avatar
    Actually it was not invented for navigation as it is used today, but to assist in 911 calls. That is why it was invented, because of a mandate by the government to include it. Therefore they are doing nothing wrong by limiting it to VZNav. They did what the government told them to do, include a location system for 911 calls. It's just that people are expanding the applications to use that, but Verizon is not "screwing" anyone or violating any monopoly regulations by sticking to the "intended purpose" as the government set out.
    Cliff - did you write the canned response I got from Verizon when I asked about the GPS in my 8130? Sounds like you are regurgitating that same thought.

    Now fast forward to the Storm. Is it crippled in the Storm? Was Verizon since mandated by the government to open it up now for other use? Your line (which mimics Verizon's) doesn't hold water now that the GPS isn't crippled in the Storm. Their "security and privacy and looking out for the consumer" line of crap doesn't hold water now.
    11-29-08 11:50 AM
  5. scurvydlicious's Avatar
    Yes, they do have a monopoly on the HW GPS in the unit I purchased. They knowingly prevent other applications from working with it.

    Your burger analogy is wrong. It would be more like buying a McDonalds burger that comes with ketchup and pickles and finding out you have to go back to the counter and pay more money to get the ketchup. The BB comes with a GPS, yet we are prevented from using it without paying more.

    As for the switch providers statement, read the thread. How many times can we say how lame that line is?
    It's not a monopoly because you have choices... You did not have to buy a cellphone from Verizon Wireless. It is a monopoly when Verizon Wireless is the only company out there with cell service and they're the only ones you can use. I you don't like paying for VZ Navigator, stop crying and go to Sprint or AT&T or whoever doesn't sell their own service for it ( lame that I have to keep repeating it because you seem to think Verizon is the only service provider out there ).

    Look on Verizon's website, where does it say the Blackberry comes with GPS? It doesn't.
    11-29-08 11:52 AM
  6. GeekNJ's Avatar
    Again, I think it would be nice to use Google Maps like other carriers allow, but I don't care to use my phone for navigation, so not a bother to me. That is why I bought a GPS unit - you bought a phone that does what it was designed to do - place calls, use data, and assist in 911 services locating you.
    No, I bought a phone that provides GPS services and supports Blackberry maps. See my previous post regarding the 8130 info on the BB site. No where does it say that the GPS is only to be used for 911.

    And of course I don't think a lawsuit is necessary as this isn't worth wasting time and money on in our judicial system, but if you can somehow come up with a better way (other then switching carriers which isn't an option for me), let me know.
    11-29-08 11:52 AM
  7. GeekNJ's Avatar
    It's not a monopoly because you have choices... You did not have to buy a cellphone from Verizon Wireless. It is a monopoly when Verizon Wireless is the only company out there with cell service and they're the only ones you can use. I you don't like paying for VZ Navigator, stop crying and go to Sprint or AT&T or whoever doesn't sell their own service for it ( lame that I have to keep repeating it because you seem to think Verizon is the only service provider out there ).

    Look on Verizon's website, where does it say the Blackberry comes with GPS? It doesn't.
    Please, please stop with the switch carrier crap. It's not an option for reasons stated above. I can't switch to AT&T or Sprint. Lame that it's your only response - switch. Did you used to pull the "I'm gonna take my ball and go home" line when you were younger?

    And the GPS is explicitly mentioned on the BB site including use with applications such as Blackberry Maps as long as a data plan is available. No where on Verizon's site does it say they've crippled the hardware provided in order to force you to use their own software application.

    Should we have all switched when Verizon pulled the delivery notification? Was that your response to everyone that posted about it?
    11-29-08 11:57 AM
  8. GeekNJ's Avatar
    It's not a monopoly because you have choices... You did not have to buy a cellphone from Verizon Wireless. It is a monopoly when Verizon Wireless is the only company out there with cell service and they're the only ones you can use. .
    Microsoft was deemed a monopoly yet you could build any computer you wanted at any time and install any operating system you wanted on it. You didn't need to only buy a computer with Windows.

    Microsoft isn't the only OS out there yet they were deemed a monopoly. A monopoly just doesn't mean there isn't any choice.
    11-29-08 11:59 AM
  9. philchang's Avatar
    If there is a class action lawsuit regarding GPS then join that one instead of starting another. One of the dummer ideas I've heard of.

    GPS is an advertised device function. Simple as that and there is already a pending class action if you google verizon GPS.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-29-08 12:00 PM
  10. philchang's Avatar
    Even if it does make it into court, by that time you'll probably be onto another blackberry, or verizon may unlock GPS by then. Besides, say you win, all you'll see is a few bucks and they will still lock the GPS. But if you have nothing better to do...

    Its in one state and I don't see a mention of what court its being heard in front of...oh thats right. THEY NEVER ADVERTISED THAT FEATURE YOU MORONS. IT WILL NEVER SEE ITS DAY IN COURT.
    11-29-08 12:07 PM
  11. howie's Avatar
    Cliff - did you write the canned response I got from Verizon when I asked about the GPS in my 8130? Sounds like you are regurgitating that same thought.

    Now fast forward to the Storm. Is it crippled in the Storm? Was Verizon since mandated by the government to open it up now for other use? Your line (which mimics Verizon's) doesn't hold water now that the GPS isn't crippled in the Storm. Their "security and privacy and looking out for the consumer" line of crap doesn't hold water now.
    Sorry, I skipped a bunch of the earlier posts so didn't see it. But, as for the Storm now allowing it, it is probably part of Verizon's new "open network" stance. They are not crippling the bluetooth as horrible as they used to on most new phones either.
    GPS/E911
    Verizon Wireless To Introduce Any Apps, Any Device Option For Customers In 2008

    Microsoft was deemed a monopoly yet you could build any computer you wanted at any time and install any operating system you wanted on it. You didn't need to only buy a computer with Windows.

    Microsoft isn't the only OS out there yet they were deemed a monopoly. A monopoly just doesn't mean there isn't any choice.
    Microsoft was a monopoly because of the internet browser, not the operating system. This was because they built IE so deeply into the core of the OS and tried to prevent other browsers from "playing nicely" on the computer.
    Last edited by cliffr39; 11-29-08 at 12:13 PM.
    11-29-08 12:10 PM
  12. GeekNJ's Avatar
    Microsoft was a monopoly because of the internet browser, not the operating system. This was because they built IE so deeply into the core of the OS and tried to prevent other browsers from "playing nicely" on the computer.
    That is just one of the items related to Microsoft.

    So lets take what you just posted. Verizon is preventing any 3rd part y application (free or paid service) from running on a device because they explicitly prevent it. That is exactly the same as you wrote above.

    Imagine buying a notebook from Dell and either not being able to get on free wifi with the wireless card that is part of the laptop without paying dell to enable the wifi. That's exactly what is happening here. Verizon is taking a function of the device that is provided in what we purchased (wifi card) which requires no Verizon service to function (free wifi) and requiring us to pay to use something that is free and has no ongoing cost to them.

    And to take it a step further, what if you paid the $10 and found out you can only use their web browser and not anyone you wanted? That's comparing to Verizon paying $10/mo and using VZNav and not any other nav program we might choose to use.

    I'm trying to make this something you can relate to that isn't just Verizon and the GPS. Imagine how, if you cared about something else like wifi, you'd relate to what Verizon is doing on the Blackberry.
    11-29-08 12:17 PM
  13. howie's Avatar
    I don't see those being the same. If Dell listed the laptop as "wifi" then I would buy it, no problem. Verizon does NOT list the BlackBerry as having a GPS. They only talk about it having VZNav. That's different. If Dell did not mention to have wifi or a DVD burner, I would just not buy it and give my business to Gateway, Toshiba, or Acer.
    11-29-08 12:23 PM
  14. scurvydlicious's Avatar
    Please, please stop with the switch carrier crap. It's not an option for reasons stated above. I can't switch to AT&T or Sprint. Lame that it's your only response - switch. Did you used to pull the "I'm gonna take my ball and go home" line when you were younger?
    I did. And if someone cried about me using a certain ball, I would tell them to buy the one they wanted and we could use it, instead of crying about it and trying to sue someone.

    And the GPS is explicitly mentioned on the BB site including use with applications such as Blackberry Maps as long as a data plan is available. No where on Verizon's site does it say they've crippled the hardware provided in order to force you to use their own software application.
    On Blackberry's website, it does say GPS capabilities, but did you buy the phone from blackberry.com?

    Should we have all switched when Verizon pulled the delivery notification? Was that your response to everyone that posted about it?
    I don't believe I had a response, but now that you mention it, stop whining about that too. Did you sigh in joy when it came back!?!? Or did you call Verizon's customer service and complain that they should give you that notification for free because you expect it?
    11-29-08 12:28 PM
  15. dredayholiday's Avatar
    If you're talking on a $500 dollar phone with a plan over $70 dollars a month (usually more) and you're complaining about $10 extra a month...you need to stop posing and perpetrating and get a phone more on your level. Like I've said before, you don't have or even need VZW. They do not have a cellular phone monopoly at all, you CAN go somewhere else. I really don't see this lawsuit going anywhere. You should have known before you signed up what the restrictions were, and you had 30 days to find out. Now all of a sudden you need your GPS? They might have lost 8 cases...but they're obviously doing a lot of things correctly.
    Last edited by dredayholiday; 11-29-08 at 12:33 PM.
    11-29-08 12:29 PM
  16. GeekNJ's Avatar
    I don't see those being the same. If Dell listed the laptop as "wifi" then I would buy it, no problem. Verizon does NOT list the BlackBerry as having a GPS. They only talk about it having VZNav. That's different. If Dell did not mention to have wifi or a DVD burner, I would just not buy it and give my business to Gateway, Toshiba, or Acer.
    I don't have Verizon's info from a year ago when the 8130 came out. But we know it includes a GPS as they aren't the HW manufacturer and the HW manufacturer explicitly lists it and Verizon doesn't explicitly, even today, indicate they cripple it.

    I guess there's no speakerphone since it isn't mentioned on the VZ site so if they charged you for that, it would be ok? There's no mention of themes on the VZ site, so if you were locked to the Verizon theme you'd be ok with that? It doesn't say on their site that the functionality of the device for themes would somehow be disabled.

    The LACK of mentioning crippling something that the HW device comes with is deceptive at best.
    11-29-08 12:36 PM
  17. dredayholiday's Avatar
    Ok, so VZW, even if they did "lead" someone to believe they had unrestricted GPS, there are a few fundamental questions that apply not only to this issue but to numerous aspects of life that everyone should acknowledge. Does the phone in fact have GPS? Yes. Do you pay for it? Yes. Did they say it was free? No. What am I missing... when I was a young child my parents said "nothing is free" and "ask questions." Your misunderstanding is not a VZW misrepresentation.
    11-29-08 12:55 PM
  18. miltonb's Avatar
    [QUOTE=GeekNJ;1071188]Yes, they do have a monopoly on the HW GPS in the unit I purchased. They knowingly prevent other applications from working with it.

    Dude, dude. We all pay fo GPS service. Just like Verizon. Like I said before. Sprint uses Telenav from sprint. Sprint costumers can't take advantage of using GPS unless they pay a data plan, internet service, and so on. We all have GPS enabled phones. But we need to pay internet service to use it.
    Even with wi-fi. You will get intenet service where available. But GPS won't work unless you pay a data plan.
    Stop making such a big issue. Its really simple.
    11-29-08 12:57 PM
  19. GeekNJ's Avatar
    Ok, so VZW, even if they did "lead" someone to believe they had unrestricted GPS, there are a few fundamental questions that apply not only to this issue but to numerous aspects of life that everyone should acknowledge. Does the phone in fact have GPS? Yes. Do you pay for it? Yes. Did they say it was free? No. What am I missing... when I was a young child my parents said "nothing is free" and "ask questions." Your misunderstanding is not a VZW misrepresentation.
    I'm not misunderstanding anything. See my previous comments regarding your "logic" that either you're overlooking or not understanding. NOT representing that something is crippled doesn't mean it is acceptable as you seem to be insinuating. See my other posts please.
    11-29-08 12:58 PM
  20. GeekNJ's Avatar
    Yes, they do have a monopoly on the HW GPS in the unit I purchased. They knowingly prevent other applications from working with it.
    Dude, dude. We all pay fo GPS service. Just like Verizon. Like I said before. Sprint uses Telenav from sprint. Sprint costumers can't take advantage of using GPS unless they pay a data plan, internet service, and so on. We all have GPS enabled phones. But we need to pay internet service to use it.
    Even with wi-fi. You will get intenet service where available. But GPS won't work unless you pay a data plan.
    Stop making such a big issue. Its really simple.
    Hopefully I fixed your quoting challenge. Verizon is NOT paying for the GPS. And the GPS doesn't need to use any data plan. If I happen to have an application that requires data from the internet, then yes, that could be the case, but I'm already paying for that. But there are many applications which don't need the Internet to provide GPS information on the BB when the GPS isn't crippled.

    But regardless, I'm already paying for the "unlimited" data plan so I'm already paying to use what you feel Verizon has to "pay" for. Buty we're talking about the GPS satellite signals that come for the geosynchronous sats up in the sky.

    And your argument doesn't stand where it isn't crippled with the Storm. So Verizon's previous argument (see my previous posts in this thread with Verizon's response) that they are protecting our provacy, is horse crap. That or they are no longer interested in protecting our privacy as long as we buy a NEW device from them. So as long as I cough up another $200, my privacy is no longer a concern as it is with my current device.
    11-29-08 01:03 PM
  21. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    Ok, so VZW, even if they did "lead" someone to believe they had unrestricted GPS, there are a few fundamental questions that apply not only to this issue but to numerous aspects of life that everyone should acknowledge. Does the phone in fact have GPS? Yes. Do you pay for it? Yes. Did they say it was free? No. What am I missing... when I was a young child my parents said "nothing is free" and "ask questions." Your misunderstanding is not a VZW misrepresentation.
    hey man, no one is asking for GPS to be free! if you want to debate and take a side against your own interest, then at least listen to what people are actually complaining about ... because its a warranted and common sense complaint

    I want the choice to choose services as verizon should not have a monopoly on a GPS chip that was placed in the phone by the manufacturer with the intent of it just being a GENERAL GPS!

    Hense why they made BB maps to work with GPS. If your looking for any kind of intent on the part of RIM, just look at BB Maps. I'm sure they wouldn't of waisted time on making this GPS enabled BB maps if they knew it would be crippled and non functional!

    But in the end, everyone needs to stop saying we want free GPS! THAT IS NOT THE ARGUEMENT!!!!
    Last edited by RicanMedic78; 11-29-08 at 01:18 PM.
    11-29-08 01:08 PM
  22. howie's Avatar
    ...I guess there's no speakerphone since it isn't mentioned on the VZ site so if they charged you for that, it would be ok? There's no mention of themes on the VZ site..
    Actually, Verizon does mention the speakerphone
    Enter your location
    "Integrated speaker and microphone"
    They don't mention themes, because it's not a feature it's an application - just as AIM/Yahoo/Google Talk/BlackBerry Messenger/Facebook/MySpace aren't mentioned

    Hopefully I fixed your quoting challenge. Verizon is NOT paying for the GPS. And the GPS doesn't need to use any data plan. If I happen to have an application that requires data from the internet, then yes, that could be the case, but I'm already paying for that. But there are many applications which don't need the Internet to provide GPS information on the BB when the GPS isn't crippled.

    But regardless, I'm already paying for the "unlimited" data plan so I'm already paying to use what you feel Verizon has to "pay" for. But we're talking about the GPS satellite signals that come for the geosynchronous sats up in the sky.
    ...
    I don't know any GPS applications that reside 100% on the BlackBerry and use zero internet. And as for GPS signals, these phones do not have regular GPS, they are aGPS, which means assisted by the Verizon towers.
    11-29-08 01:16 PM
  23. dredayholiday's Avatar
    hey man, no one is asking for GPS to be free! if you want to debate and take a side against your own interest, then at least listen to what people are actually complaining about ... because its a warranted and common sense complaint

    I want the choice to choose services as verizon should not have a monopoly on a GPS chip that was placed in the phone by the manufacturer with the intent of it just being a GENERAL GPS!

    Hense why they made BB maps to work with GPS. If your looking for any kind of intent on the part of RIM, just look at BB Maps. I'm sure they wouldn't of waisted time on making this GPS enabled BB maps if they knew it would be crippled and non functional!

    But in the end, everyone needs to stop saying we want free GPS! THAT IS NOT THE ARGUEMENT!!!!

    Many people have voiced that they are upset because VZW charges for the service...which is basically at the heart of almost all the complaints against VZW concerning GPS. "They didnt invent GPS they shouldn't charge" or "They didn't put the satellites up there, they shouldn't charge"... I haven't seen anyone say that they wouldn't mind paying for GPS if they can use it with other software. The majority of people are upset about the approximately $2.50 a week VZW charges for GPS.
    Last edited by dredayholiday; 11-29-08 at 01:49 PM.
    11-29-08 01:46 PM
  24. GeekNJ's Avatar
    Actually, Verizon does mention the speakerphone
    Enter your location
    "Integrated speaker and microphone"
    They don't mention themes, because it's not a feature it's an application - just as AIM/Yahoo/Google Talk/BlackBerry Messenger/Facebook/MySpace aren't mentioned
    Sorry Cliff, but saying a speaker and a microphone is not a speakerphone. The old dial telephones had a speaker and a microphone but no speakerphone. That's firmware that provides that functionality. It's the same firmware that Verizon has chosen to disable communications with the GPS within.

    And Themes is part of the Blackberry device whether it be HW, firmware or software. What if the theme on your BB was locked to the Verizon only one and for $10 you could get it unlocked? Same as the GPS we're discussing.

    As for 3rd party applications, I'm not sure how that factors in to this discussion. We're talking about what comes on the base device as documented on the Blackberry site.

    I don't know any GPS applications that reside 100% on the BlackBerry and use zero internet. And as for GPS signals, these phones do not have regular GPS, they are aGPS, which means assisted by the Verizon towers.
    You might not know any MAPPING GPS application that resides 100% on the blackberry but there are many GPS applications that don't need data to work. And regardless, I'm already paying for the data plan on my Blackberry so I've got that covered even if it does want to access the Internet just as say posting my high score in Brick Breaker does.

    All these aGPS phones receive signals directly from the orbiting satellites. They can be assisted by cell tower info if they are unable to communicate with the sat GPS. And the sat GPS provides MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more accurate data then tower based data. aGPS is a compromise at best. Look at the Google use of positioning using cell data.
    11-29-08 01:56 PM
  25. GeekNJ's Avatar
    Many people have voiced that they are upset because VZW charges for the service...which is basically at the heart of almost all the complaints against VZW concerning GPS. "They didnt invent GPS they shouldn't charge" or "They didn't put the satellites up there, they shouldn't charge"... I haven't seen anyone say that they wouldn't mind paying for GPS if they can use it with other software. The majority of people are upset about the approximately $2.50 a week VZW charges for GPS.
    You aren't getting the concept here. We're not disputing the fact that VZ is within their right to charge for VZNav. We're disputing the fact that the GPS HW device in our Blackberry's is crippled by VZ so it only works with their application after paying a fee. Uncripple the HW and charge $10/mo for VZ Nav. No one would then care as there are competitive solutions that would be available. But with the GPS crippled by Verizon, there's no competition.

    If the above makes sense, then you'll understand the discussion. If not, I'm not sure how to explain it any clearer then already has been done.

    VZNav - pay is ok. GPS crippled by Verizon - not ok.
    11-29-08 01:59 PM
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