04-18-09 02:25 PM
685 12345 ...
tools
  1. monkeymisfit's Avatar
    Why does everyone miss the point on this whole thing. In no way does is cost VZW anything to have the GPS unlocked on the phone, so why charge for it other than the fact it is all profit. The comments about things like ' I didn't think I would have to pay for data and voice' and 'the I didn't think I would have to pay for gas to the car' are just pointless. Bottomline the GPS system (which has already been paid for and maintained by tax dollars) is not owner by VZW. The only thing someone needs to use the system is a GPS receiver and the software to understand the signal, and RIM already provided both of those items with the purchase of the phone. So I don't think VZW should allowed to change 9.99 a month for a program, because truely that is what you need up paying for. The government should ask for the profits from VZW afterall they (we the taxpayer) paid for it, or maybe the government should lock it all down again and make us pay for it through them. But that's just my thoughts on the whole thing.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-24-08 09:10 PM
  2. GeekNJ's Avatar
    The previous poster is dead on and any rationale, logical adult would need to agree.

    The device we bought (yes, it is ours) has the capabilities built in to use the GPS. Verizon disabled those features in a device we purchased. There's no cost to Verizon for a subscriber to use the built-in GPS. There's no cost to Verizon for me to install a 3rd party (BB Maps, Google Maps, etc) application which uses the GPS.

    Verizon can absolutely charge to download and use their own GPS application just like other companies such as Garmin charge for. That mapping application is a Verizon service, but not the built-in GPS we own.

    So how is someone, going to a Verizon store or speaking to a rep on the phone supposed to know that the built-in capabilities of the device they are purchasing are disabled? That line of thinking many throw out is just illogical. You are buying a device that provides that feature in the device. Unless Verizon has a big sign next to the unit or explicitly tells each customer on the phone that though the device comes from the manufacturer with a built-in GPS but you can't use it unless you pay us $10/mo, then they are hiding the fact that something native to the device, that costs them nothing, is intentionally disabled.

    Would you feel differently if say you had to pat $1/mo for BrickBreaker to work? What about $0.10 for each picture you took with the built-in camera? Or $5/mo for unlimited pictures. What if each voice notes recording cost you $0.50 or $5/month for unlimited voice notes? Verizon I guess is fully within their right to do the above if they are disabling something that, by default, comes enabled, and requires us to pay for something that they incur no cost for?

    Prior to the Storm, I contacted Verizon on this subject regarding my 8130 which I purchased. Their lame canned response that included:

    <snip>

    Verizon Wireless is committed to providing the very latest in products and services. The BlackBerry 8130's GPS chip is used to provide the handset's location to emergency responders when placing 911 calls. It does not provide any user accessible functionality such as location information for directions, mapping or any other application.

    At Verizon Wireless we value the security and privacy of our subscriber data and user information and we have taken this into account in the development of our location based services offerings. To alleviate concerns regarding access to data by malicious applications and misuse of location information, Verizon Wireless' location based services utilize a solution that requires each location request to be authenticated and accepted prior to a user's location being obtained through the network and used by authorized applications.

    <snip>

    After hearing that the Storm's GPS isn't crippled, I replied again to their canned response with the following:

    With the release of the Storm and the built-in GPS remaining enabled, the response below no longer seems valid. Same built-in GPS in the Storm as the 8130, so what's the expectation that existing customers should have? Is Verizon going to shortly release a version of the 8130 firmware which doesn't cripple the built-in functionality in the hardware device I purchased? Or does Verizon no longer "value the security and privacy of our subscriber data and user information" as long as you purchase a NEW device?

    It has been a week and I haven't yet received a response. I will follow up again in another week if I still don't get a response.
    11-29-08 08:23 AM
  3. scurvydlicious's Avatar
    If your car came with cruise control, would you be pissed if you'd have to pay the dealer every time you wanted to use the factory installed option? This is a better analogy.
    My car came with a satelite radio built in... I have to pay extra every month for that....

    Edit: Also my car came with "built-in gps" called on-star, and if I wanted to take advantage of it, I would have to pay every month.
    Last edited by scurvydlicious; 11-29-08 at 08:55 AM.
    11-29-08 08:51 AM
  4. GeekNJ's Avatar
    My car came with a satelite radio built in... I have to pay extra every month for that....
    You are again talking about a service. XM or Sirius is a pay service. The GPS isn't. The "application" Verizon provides would be the equivalent of the sat service and that is something they could look to charge for.

    If you want to use your analogy, your car came with a sat radio and you can't use the radio (AM, FM, CD, etc) at all unless you pay for sat service. That's like what Verizon has done to the GPS in the units we purchased.

    I want to use the GPS (radio), not their navigation service (satellite subscription).
    11-29-08 08:56 AM
  5. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    The previous poster is dead on and any rationale, logical adult would need to agree.

    The device we bought (yes, it is ours) has the capabilities built in to use the GPS. Verizon disabled those features in a device we purchased. There's no cost to Verizon for a subscriber to use the built-in GPS. There's no cost to Verizon for me to install a 3rd party (BB Maps, Google Maps, etc) application which uses the GPS.

    Verizon can absolutely charge to download and use their own GPS application just like other companies such as Garmin charge for. That mapping application is a Verizon service, but not the built-in GPS we own.

    So how is someone, going to a Verizon store or speaking to a rep on the phone supposed to know that the built-in capabilities of the device they are purchasing are disabled? That line of thinking many throw out is just illogical. You are buying a device that provides that feature in the device. Unless Verizon has a big sign next to the unit or explicitly tells each customer on the phone that though the device comes from the manufacturer with a built-in GPS but you can't use it unless you pay us $10/mo, then they are hiding the fact that something native to the device, that costs them nothing, is intentionally disabled.

    Would you feel differently if say you had to pat $1/mo for BrickBreaker to work? What about $0.10 for each picture you took with the built-in camera? Or $5/mo for unlimited pictures. What if each voice notes recording cost you $0.50 or $5/month for unlimited voice notes? Verizon I guess is fully within their right to do the above if they are disabling something that, by default, comes enabled, and requires us to pay for something that they incur no cost for?

    Prior to the Storm, I contacted Verizon on this subject regarding my 8130 which I purchased. Their lame canned response that included:

    <snip>

    Verizon Wireless is committed to providing the very latest in products and services. The BlackBerry 8130's GPS chip is used to provide the handset's location to emergency responders when placing 911 calls. It does not provide any user accessible functionality such as location information for directions, mapping or any other application.

    At Verizon Wireless we value the security and privacy of our subscriber data and user information and we have taken this into account in the development of our location based services offerings. To alleviate concerns regarding access to data by malicious applications and misuse of location information, Verizon Wireless' location based services utilize a solution that requires each location request to be authenticated and accepted prior to a user's location being obtained through the network and used by authorized applications.

    <snip>

    After hearing that the Storm's GPS isn't crippled, I replied again to their canned response with the following:

    With the release of the Storm and the built-in GPS remaining enabled, the response below no longer seems valid. Same built-in GPS in the Storm as the 8130, so what's the expectation that existing customers should have? Is Verizon going to shortly release a version of the 8130 firmware which doesn't cripple the built-in functionality in the hardware device I purchased? Or does Verizon no longer "value the security and privacy of our subscriber data and user information" as long as you purchase a NEW device?

    It has been a week and I haven't yet received a response. I will follow up again in another week if I still don't get a response.
    excellent response and I second it!!!! Read my response on "from your vzw rep" as I touch on some of the very same issues! If anyone can PM me an email or phone # to any higher ranking officialls at VZW, I'll love to add my support in protest to this issue! The more complaints we give, the faster things will change!

    Anyone who disagrees with the above is obviously either ******** or getting a commission from verizon to support this non sense position on navigator! BOTTOM LINE!
    delanobull likes this.
    11-29-08 08:57 AM
  6. GeekNJ's Avatar
    Edit: Also my car came with "built-in gps" called on-star, and if I wanted to take advantage of it, I would have to pay every month.
    Same as your last poor example. My Suburban came with a navigation system which I bought as well as OnStar. My navigation system isn't disabled and I can use it without additional cost. OnStar is a paid service. OnStar also uses a cellular connection which you can't use unless you subscribe to OnStar's phone service or emergency service.

    Again, you're not looking at the device but the service. We're talking about the device and access to the device we paid for. We're not looking for Verizon's service (VZ Navigator).
    11-29-08 09:01 AM
  7. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    if you see an app on your blackberry called "VZ nav," the expectation is that it will not be free. No one is asking for free VZ Nav!

    If there was a universal "onstar type" button in your car, and there are several companies out there that provide the same service from the same button, including free independent services, then yes, the expectation is that I can call the service I want and add it without a fear of it being locked to onstar alone!

    But make no mistake, GPS was not invented solely for verizon's VZ nav! If it was, there would be no reason to lock it down! It would of just been designed and implimented solely with VZ Nav in mind without having the locked down feature! Just the idea of locking it down shows that it was designed as a general GPS for all types of software including the very mapping program that comes with the phone .... that I might add was designed by the company that put in the GPS chip to be used with the very software it created! LOL... did u get that?

    But seriously... There is no counter argument here and whoever tries to invent one is either very ignorant or very well paid to invent one!
    Last edited by RicanMedic78; 11-29-08 at 09:47 AM.
    11-29-08 09:26 AM
  8. miltonb's Avatar
    I think Verizon has every right. Yes they obviously have gotten away with this. The reason is when signing a 2 year contract, you admit to any charges that will apply for extra use outside your stated phone plan.

    Yes Blackberry gave us all the option for GPS, but each company sets their own pricing for internet, gps, picture mail, ect...
    And last, I don't recall Verizon wireless come to anyones home and forced anyone to sign a contact and pay extra for $10/mo GPS service. The truth is that the millions and millions of verizon costumers chose it on themselves. So why argue now. As the #1 wireless provider, this is just a small tip of the iceberg.
    Last edited by miltonb; 11-29-08 at 09:37 AM.
    11-29-08 09:35 AM
  9. GeekNJ's Avatar
    I think Verizon has every right. Yes they obviously have gotten away with this. The reason is when signing a 2 year contract, you admit to any charges that will apply for extra use outside your stated phone plan.
    And the gripe is there's NO additional service beyond the phone (data in this case) plan for using the built-in GPS on the device we bought.

    Yes Blackberry gave us all the option for GPS, but each company sets their own pricing for internet, gps, picture mail, ect...
    But there's no service associated with the GPS device. VZ Nav is Verizon's "service", not the GPS built into the unit we paid for.

    And last, I don't recall Verizon wireless come to anyones home and forced anyone to sign a contact and pay extra for $10/mo GPS service. The truth is that the millions and millions of verizon costumers chose it on themselves.
    Is it millions? Do you know? Where did you get the stat?

    So why argue now. As the #1 wireless provider, this is just a small tip of the iceberg.
    Who says anyone is arguing now? This gripe has been going on since they first had a GPS in device that allowed non-Verizon software to be installed. yet the built-in HW was specifically crippled by Verizon, thought we purchased the device which has this feature.

    We're asking that the HW feature native in the device not be crippled for use with other vendor software.
    11-29-08 09:43 AM
  10. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    But there's no service associated with the GPS device. VZ Nav is Verizon's "service", not the GPS built into the unit we paid for.
    THAT RIGHT THERE SAYS IT ALL!

    And as for advertizing, VZW never says "Optional GPS with subscription!"

    because if you choose not to pay 9.99 for a specificed and restrictive service not designed solely for the GPS chip in your phone, then you WILL NOT have GPS on your phone and therefore it is not a capability

    Agree or disagree with whether they can do this, its still a malicious practice and thats something that everyone has to admit is true regardless of your opinion on whether they are allowed to do this or not
    Last edited by RicanMedic78; 11-29-08 at 09:59 AM.
    11-29-08 09:54 AM
  11. howie's Avatar
    I just don't understand all the crying about verizon this or that.. If you don't like their policy over anything (ie this GPS, or crippling of bluetooth) then use another carrier. When they see flocks of customers leaving for other carriers that Don't do that, they will change. No one forced you to stay with them and "deal" with the policies you don't like. I didn't like AT&T's new policy to screw customers over with higher data prices for iPhone - so I left. Everyone wants to freakin' sue these days.
    11-29-08 10:10 AM
  12. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    problem is u have to argue it or it will have no legs. and in the end its a monopoly issue! And sometimes its a lot harder to just get up and switch carriers because there might be other benefits that keep u with them where not having GPS is not as big a issue.

    But just because its not big enough of a problem to switch doesnt mean that itisn't a problem at all. And monopolies should be allowed to flurish in a fair market society
    11-29-08 10:22 AM
  13. GeekNJ's Avatar
    There are many reasons not to switch. I'll name a few very obvious ones:
    1) Corporate mandate
    2) Family and friends using the same carrier
    3) Best coverage

    Doesn't mean folks such as myself can't be ticked off about some particular bad decision.

    Myself - I purchased a bluetooth GPS (in addition to the GPS I purchased with the device which I can't use) that works fine but requires me to carry another device.

    Your suggestion is akin to getting a new Storm and not being allowed to post about issues or dislikes under the guise that it is new and we're supposed to have problems so we shouldn't have bought it. If you don't have an issue with Verizon's specific tactic here, well that's great, but I don't see any reason to post for no other reason then to tell folks to switch. That's just a meaningless post. I would say your argument was proven wrong when Verizon stopped SMS delivery notification. Sure, we could have switched providers, but they brought it back because it was the wrong thing to do. Same idea here.
    11-29-08 10:22 AM
  14. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    problem is u have to argue it or it will have no legs. and in the end its a monopoly issue! And sometimes its a lot harder to just get up and switch carriers because there might be other benefits that keep u with them where not having GPS is not as big a issue.

    But just because its not big enough of a problem to switch doesnt mean that itisn't a problem at all. And monopolies should be allowed to flurish in a fair market society

    if that was the case, then every company can get away with a little something here and there because if the person switches to the competition, their going to get the same issues, maybe in another area but still the same issues!

    That's why the government has laws on the books for companies who try to monopolize....

    microsoft quickly comes to mind with its trying to monopolize the windows operating system. If they would of gotten their way, we would only be allowed to use EI.

    Then some of you guys supporting verizon in this issue would just be saying, "well, if u dont like it, switch to apple!"

    And thats a flawed philosophy!
    Last edited by RicanMedic78; 11-29-08 at 10:27 AM.
    11-29-08 10:25 AM
  15. traindrvr63's Avatar
    Going back to the op's statement, yes they advertised it as being GPS capable, but I don't recall reading anything about it being "FREE", do you?
    11-29-08 10:30 AM
  16. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    regardless if what is advertised, it doesn't make a difference....

    If verizon designed and implemented the GPS itself, then you would have a point as they can design it how they like. But what verizon did was cripple a system already in place and therefore, the monopolizing arguement stands without debate!

    The microsoft windows arguement is a 100% perfect example of the practice VZW is doing here...

    if the government got involved, I'm pretty sure VZW would lose! And I don't have to be a lawyer to figure that one out. And contracts and agreements would be nul n void!

    But regardless of who wins or loses, its just plain ol bad tactics on verizons part! And its our responsibility as citizens and customers to lash out and protest for fairness in the marketplace!
    Last edited by RicanMedic78; 11-29-08 at 10:44 AM.
    11-29-08 10:35 AM
  17. miltonb's Avatar
    Geek and Rican: to answer your frustrated comments.
    Verizon is indeed the #1 wireless subscriber, I know for a fact Sprint has at least 52million. So I would imagine Verizon has twice as much. Hence the plurar discription I used.

    2nd: GPS has to be engaged through your carrier. Sprint offers Gps, but it is ran through "Sprint telenav", so yes it goes through a sprint service. The difference is Sprint does not charge anymore if you have an unlimited data plan. But they did and still charge $10/mo if you want to use GPS. And why not.

    When has the use of Satellites become a free option. So weather we pay for it as a labeled option or not. We are all paying for the service one way or another.
    11-29-08 10:36 AM
  18. GeekNJ's Avatar
    Going back to the op's statement, yes they advertised it as being GPS capable, but I don't recall reading anything about it being "FREE", do you?
    Free? We don't want VZ Nav to be free and though it would be nice, that isn't going to happen.

    It is a built in HW feature of the device that does not require Verizon software to use. Why would it cost anything? That's like it includes a MUTE button but it costs $10/mo to mute your call. It says the phone supports muting but they didn't say muting was free. Or what about the speaker phone capability? What if you had to pay for that HW feature that is part of the device you purchased?

    Silly argument.
    11-29-08 10:39 AM
  19. GeekNJ's Avatar
    When has the use of Satellites become a free option. So weather we pay for it as a labeled option or not. We are all paying for the service one way or another.
    I don' t understand what you're posting. The GPS satellites are not Verizon's sats. They are the US government satellites and we all paid for them through our taxes.
    11-29-08 10:43 AM
  20. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    When has the use of Satellites become a free option. So weather we pay for it as a labeled option or not. We are all paying for the service one way or another.
    Are all the other GPS navigators on the market free??? Since when are we crying out for a free option????????????????

    WE WANT CHOICE!!! THE CHIP WAS INVENTED WITH CHOICE IN MIND!!! I support capitolism and verizon needs to compete for my money, and without the competition, what initiative do they have to improve the navigator and make it the best it can be???? DONE! Theres no competition! ITS CALLED A MONOLPLY!!! Microsoft tried that and they lost! If the government got involved, verizon would lose too!
    Last edited by RicanMedic78; 11-29-08 at 10:53 AM.
    11-29-08 10:50 AM
  21. scurvydlicious's Avatar
    I'm not sure why you ladies are complaining. If you looked on Verizon Wireless' website, and checked out any Blackberry phone, none of them say GPS or GPS enabled, or anything like that. They only say VZ Navigator... And as you clearly mentioned above, VZ Navigator is a "service" that Verizon Wireless provides. No where under the "details", "features", "accessories", or "capabilities" tab does it say anything about GPS. And if you had done any research on your own ( which it looks like you have ), you would have realized before purchasing the device, that you'd have to pay extra for Verizon Wireless' VZ Navigator service.

    Another thing, you guys say GPS wouldn't cost Verizon anything to enable, wrong. It would cost Verizon because who would pay $9.99 for VZ Navigator, if they can just use Blackberry Maps for free? I don't think millions and millions use VZ Navigator, but I'm sure Verizon makes a pretty penny from that service.
    11-29-08 11:12 AM
  22. scurvydlicious's Avatar
    Are all the other GPS navigators on the market free??? Since when are we crying out for a free option????????????????

    WE WANT CHOICE!!! THE CHIP WAS INVENTED WITH CHOICE IN MIND!!! I support capitolism and verizon needs to compete for my money, and without the competition, what initiative do they have to improve the navigator and make it the best it can be???? DONE! Theres no competition! ITS CALLED A MONOLPLY!!! Microsoft tried that and they lost! If the government got involved, verizon would lose too!
    Verizon doesn't have a monopoly over GPS. They sale their own service for it. It's like eating at McDonalds and saying they have a monopoly over Big Mac's because you want a Whopper or a ThickBurger....

    If you want more choices, you have them... Go to Sprint, AT&T, T-Mobile... Choices are everywhere, just open your eyes.
    11-29-08 11:16 AM
  23. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    its funny how this is such a valid point, yet your making an argument against your own interests!

    Unless u get a comission for them that is! Either way this is something that NO ONE should be debating! The faster you realize that, the faster they will fix this issue and everyone will get a universal GPS we can all enjoy with whatever program we choose to use

    AS IT WAS INTENDED!
    11-29-08 11:20 AM
  24. GeekNJ's Avatar
    Verizon doesn't have a monopoly over GPS. They sale their own service for it. It's like eating at McDonalds and saying they have a monopoly over Big Mac's because you want a Whopper or a ThickBurger....

    If you want more choices, you have them... Go to Sprint, AT&T, T-Mobile... Choices are everywhere, just open your eyes.
    Yes, they do have a monopoly on the HW GPS in the unit I purchased. They knowingly prevent other applications from working with it.

    Your burger analogy is wrong. It would be more like buying a McDonalds burger that comes with ketchup and pickles and finding out you have to go back to the counter and pay more money to get the ketchup. The BB comes with a GPS, yet we are prevented from using it without paying more.

    As for the switch providers statement, read the thread. How many times can we say how lame that line is?
    11-29-08 11:21 AM
  25. GeekNJ's Avatar
    Going back to the op's statement, yes they advertised it as being GPS capable, but I don't recall reading anything about it being "FREE", do you?
    Just to follow up on this, if you go to the Blackberry site for the device I use that Verizon has crippled the GPS on at BlackBerry - Pearl Features and click the GPS and Blackberry Maps link on the right, you'll see it doesn't mention that there's any fee to use this beyond what they reference as a data plan, which I have.

    And no where I can find on the Verizon 8130 page for the specs, features, etc does it mention that the built-in HW GPS in the device we are purchasing is disabled and prevented from functioning.
    11-29-08 11:40 AM
685 12345 ...
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD