04-18-09 02:25 PM
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  1. shchasm's Avatar
    The GPS was not designed for VZ Nav exclusively! And while phones are specifically designed for CDMA devices, the lock to the carrier is justified in the discount you received for that phone! That is it! That is why more and more carriers are making it easier to get unlock codes after their contracts are up, even before! You have no leg to stand on in your analogy!
    Im not sure what difference that makes. RIM Agreed to the terms when they sold their products to verizon. You in turn agreed to the terms with a hand written signature when you bought the product.

    I'm not arguing whether or not it's "right" to do. I know some people feel verizon's crimes against humanity deserve a lawsuit. I'm just saying I feel very strongly that you can't win that lawsuit.

    Verizon can't monopolize with VZ Nav because there are multiple carriers offering multiple products. When you go to buy a P.C. windows is on it no matter where you buy it - That is a monopoly.
    04-17-09 11:45 AM
  2. lastraid's Avatar
    Im not sure what difference that makes. RIM Agreed to the terms when they sold their products to verizon. You in turn agreed to the terms with a hand written signature when you bought the product.

    I'm not arguing whether or not it's "right" to do. I know some people feel verizon's crimes against humanity deserve a lawsuit. I'm just saying I feel very strongly that you can't win that lawsuit.

    Verizon can't monopolize with VZ Nav because there are multiple carriers offering multiple products. When you go to buy a P.C. windows is on it no matter where you buy it - That is a monopoly.
    Is it? MAC does not have Windows on it. I see what you are trying to say, but a bit of a small conflict there
    Last edited by lastraid; 04-17-09 at 11:53 AM.
    04-17-09 11:48 AM
  3. shchasm's Avatar
    Rican, I'll SEE YOU IN COURT!!!!!

    I'll defer all subsequent questioning to my attorney.
    04-17-09 11:51 AM
  4. shchasm's Avatar
    Is it? MAC does not have Windows on it. I see what yu are trying to say, but a bit of a small conflict there
    Sure, Microsoft is by far closer to a monoply than Verizon can ever be at this point. But you do get my point. That's why microsoft lost alot of there battles in court. As per Ricans argument.
    Last edited by shchasm; 04-17-09 at 11:59 AM. Reason: P.S.
    04-17-09 11:56 AM
  5. TrendyProfessional1's Avatar
    To this thread I say
    " Take a sh!t in one hand and make a wish in another and see what comes true first "
    04-17-09 12:08 PM
  6. shchasm's Avatar
    To this thread I say
    " Take a sh!t in one hand and make a wish in another and see what comes true first "
    I just tried it. In the other hand I wished that I didn't!
    04-17-09 12:12 PM
  7. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    Very bad analogy! Onstar is a separate company that is partnered with GM and profits on its own device system.
    Nope - sorry - try again. OnStar is an operating unit of General Motors. Go check out the SEC info. It is there.

    But let's take your thought a step further.

    Let's say I get a General Instruments converter through my cable company. On the box and in the advertising for both the converter and the cable service, you see something like "500 Channel Capability!"

    So you hook it up and pay the $19.99 CATV fee.

    Fire up the TV.

    Surf the channels.

    Uh oh. Something is wrong here. You get to channel 24 just fine, but 25 has nothing. 26 is unwatchable. 27, 28, 33, 69... still nothing.
    You look again at the box. There it is again. "500 Channel Capable!"

    You try all of the options on the programming menu. CATV, check. HiiBand, check. Mid-band, check. Auto-channel, check. Still nothing.

    You look at the CATV ad again. Yes, "500 Channels!" Is still there.

    So you call Cox/Comcast/TimeWarner/Dish/NPG/Joe's Local CATV and wait on hold in a very long queue. You're a little hot under the collar by the time Joe/Jenny/Esmeralda answers the phone.

    You: Hello, I just got my new CATV box and service and I can't get anything over channel 24. Can you help me?

    CS: Why certainly, Mr. You. I am looking at your account and see all is as it should be.

    You: but I bought my converter and am paying for your service and am only getting 23 channels.

    CS: Yes, Mr. You, that is correct.

    You: But I wanted to watch channel 189 and see the mating habits of wild loons in Lower Elbonia!

    CS: Why Mr. You, I can help you with that! We have our extended package that is only $99.95 per month and that will get you 210 channels plus our award-winning TV Guide channel so you can see all of the programs you're missing by not subscribing to our Super-Duper Ultimate Package!

    You: Wait. The box and your ads say "500 Channel Capable!"

    CS: Yes sir it is and I can help you with that. Getting our Super-Duper Ultimate package costs only $189.99 and that will get you 409 channels.

    You: But it says "500 Channel Capable!" I signed up expecting 500 channels!

    CS: Yes, Mr You. I can get you 500 channels. On top of our Super-Duper Ultimate Package, I can offer you our Premium Channel Package which gives you a total of 499 channels you can watch at no extra charge. The nice thing about this package it it includes access to 101 pay-per-view channels AND 65 music only channels for a total of 665 channels plus our award-winning TV Guide channel I mentioned earlier!

    You: But the ad and the box said "500 Channel Capable!" $19.99

    CS: Yes sir, but if you look in the fine print, it does say STARTING at $19.99

    You: So I want my 500 channels that start at $19.99

    CS: Mr. You, the service starts at $19.99 and only gets you basic service. What I can do for you is offer you 60 days of our full package of services free. After that, if you don't cancel the extra services, you will be billed at the low rate of $299.99 plus taxes, fees and maintenance agreements. But please remember that you signed a 2-year agreement to get the basic service at $19.99 and that service is usually $39.99 without a contract.

    You: I think I'll go online to find information on starting a class-action lawsuit against you for locking out the services my box says it is capable of.

    ______________________________

    Doesn't sound like you are being reasonable in your CATV demands, does it?

    Now before some of you tell me that CATV is different, that the channels are delivered by the company and GPS is satellite, you are wrong. For many years, EchoStar/Dish/Prime and even some CATV companies charged for local service. I also found out that some of the channels I don't pay to get through CATV can be picked up through local antenna.

    Show of hands time. How many of you bought a phone in the past two years at a promotional price? If you did, the carrier heavily subsidized the device and you did not pay for anything extra.

    How about computers. How many have purchased a HP computer? A Dell? HP adds, modifies, restricts the OS on your computer, partly in an effort to reduce costs and partly to reduce support calls. Dell does the same thing, but at least to a lesser degree.

    You paid for Windows on that computer. How dare they cripple/modify it? At least with a computer, it is easily corrected with a format & purchase of a full version of the OS. Just forget a lot of tech support assistance once you do this.

    If you don't, plan on a computer company branded browser and a ton of crippled software cluttering your computer unless you are adept with the Windows registry.

    So, you are paying extra for the OnStar & Sirius/XM radio electronics - they are fully capable and advertised as such - rough estimate is approximately $800 per car average retail over the same car if it didn't have these electronics - often more if part of an option package - then you have to pay extra for the service. Yes, these things require connectivity from infrastructure that GM OnStar/XM/Sirius has to pay for. Unfortunately for your way of thinking, the way aGPS works, it also requires connectivity from infrastructure that VZW has to pay for. Some carriers choose to not charge you for this connectivity. VZW is not one of them.

    The reality is that you'd have better success getting VZW to give you an extra 500min per month.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    04-17-09 12:35 PM
  8. kstoutdog's Avatar
    Nope - sorry - try again. OnStar is an operating unit of General Motors. Go check out the SEC info. It is there.

    But let's take your thought a step further.

    Let's say I get a General Instruments converter through my cable company. On the box and in the advertising for both the converter and the cable service, you see something like "500 Channel Capability!"

    So you hook it up and pay the $19.99 CATV fee.

    Fire up the TV.

    Surf the channels.

    Uh oh. Something is wrong here. You get to channel 24 just fine, but 25 has nothing. 26 is unwatchable. 27, 28, 33, 69... still nothing.
    You look again at the box. There it is again. "500 Channel Capable!"

    You try all of the options on the programming menu. CATV, check. HiiBand, check. Mid-band, check. Auto-channel, check. Still nothing.

    You look at the CATV ad again. Yes, "500 Channels!" Is still there.

    So you call Cox/Comcast/TimeWarner/Dish/NPG/Joe's Local CATV and wait on hold in a very long queue. You're a little hot under the collar by the time Joe/Jenny/Esmeralda answers the phone.

    You: Hello, I just got my new CATV box and service and I can't get anything over channel 24. Can you help me?

    CS: Why certainly, Mr. You. I am looking at your account and see all is as it should be.

    You: but I bought my converter and am paying for your service and am only getting 23 channels.

    CS: Yes, Mr. You, that is correct.

    You: But I wanted to watch channel 189 and see the mating habits of wild loons in Lower Elbonia!

    CS: Why Mr. You, I can help you with that! We have our extended package that is only $99.95 per month and that will get you 210 channels plus our award-winning TV Guide channel so you can see all of the programs you're missing by not subscribing to our Super-Duper Ultimate Package!

    You: Wait. The box and your ads say "500 Channel Capable!"

    CS: Yes sir it is and I can help you with that. Getting our Super-Duper Ultimate package costs only $189.99 and that will get you 409 channels.

    You: But it says "500 Channel Capable!" I signed up expecting 500 channels!

    CS: Yes, Mr You. I can get you 500 channels. On top of our Super-Duper Ultimate Package, I can offer you our Premium Channel Package which gives you a total of 499 channels you can watch at no extra charge. The nice thing about this package it it includes access to 101 pay-per-view channels AND 65 music only channels for a total of 665 channels plus our award-winning TV Guide channel I mentioned earlier!

    You: But the ad and the box said "500 Channel Capable!" $19.99

    CS: Yes sir, but if you look in the fine print, it does say STARTING at $19.99

    You: So I want my 500 channels that start at $19.99

    CS: Mr. You, the service starts at $19.99 and only gets you basic service. What I can do for you is offer you 60 days of our full package of services free. After that, if you don't cancel the extra services, you will be billed at the low rate of $299.99 plus taxes, fees and maintenance agreements. But please remember that you signed a 2-year agreement to get the basic service at $19.99 and that service is usually $39.99 without a contract.

    You: I think I'll go online to find information on starting a class-action lawsuit against you for locking out the services my box says it is capable of.

    ______________________________

    Doesn't sound like you are being reasonable in your CATV demands, does it?

    Now before some of you tell me that CATV is different, that the channels are delivered by the company and GPS is satellite, you are wrong. For many years, EchoStar/Dish/Prime and even some CATV companies charged for local service. I also found out that some of the channels I don't pay to get through CATV can be picked up through local antenna.

    Show of hands time. How many of you bought a phone in the past two years at a promotional price? If you did, the carrier heavily subsidized the device and you did not pay for anything extra.

    How about computers. How many have purchased a HP computer? A Dell? HP adds, modifies, restricts the OS on your computer, partly in an effort to reduce costs and partly to reduce support calls. Dell does the same thing, but at least to a lesser degree.

    You paid for Windows on that computer. How dare they cripple/modify it? At least with a computer, it is easily corrected with a format & purchase of a full version of the OS. Just forget a lot of tech support assistance once you do this.

    If you don't, plan on a computer company branded browser and a ton of crippled software cluttering your computer unless you are adept with the Windows registry.

    So, you are paying extra for the OnStar & Sirius/XM radio electronics - they are fully capable and advertised as such - rough estimate is approximately $800 per car average retail over the same car if it didn't have these electronics - often more if part of an option package - then you have to pay extra for the service. Yes, these things require connectivity from infrastructure that GM OnStar/XM/Sirius has to pay for. Unfortunately for your way of thinking, the way aGPS works, it also requires connectivity from infrastructure that VZW has to pay for. Some carriers choose to not charge you for this connectivity. VZW is not one of them.

    The reality is that you'd have better success getting VZW to give you an extra 500min per month.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    that sure was a mouthfull to be posting from your curve....
    04-17-09 12:42 PM
  9. shchasm's Avatar
    Ya....what Twins said!
    04-17-09 12:56 PM
  10. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    that sure was a mouthfull to be posting from your curve....
    4.9GB of data all in one post. There goes my bill.
    I just tried it. In the other hand I wished that I didn't!
    Remind me not to shake your hand.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Last edited by TwinsX2Dad; 04-17-09 at 01:36 PM.
    04-17-09 01:34 PM
  11. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    Im not sure what difference that makes. RIM Agreed to the terms when they sold their products to verizon. You in turn agreed to the terms with a hand written signature when you bought the product.

    I'm not arguing whether or not it's "right" to do. I know some people feel verizon's crimes against humanity deserve a lawsuit. I'm just saying I feel very strongly that you can't win that lawsuit.

    Verizon can't monopolize with VZ Nav because there are multiple carriers offering multiple products. When you go to buy a P.C. windows is on it no matter where you buy it - That is a monopoly.
    you have apple as your competing choice of computer. So microsoft should of gotten away with monopolizing windows Vista simply because you can just go on to pick apple instead?
    04-17-09 03:29 PM
  12. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    that sure was a mouthfull to be posting from your curve....
    LMAO! I can't even stand to look at the wap forums long enough, let alone post a message of this length. But God speed Twins... lol




    as for your point... Forgive me for being extremely generalized when I say this but.... It sounds to me like you're trying a little too hard here... Its as simple as vehicle AM/FM if you ask me!

    maybe if you want, you can add by saying that your dealer locks out the radio in a dealer's workers union agreement with the manufacturer, lets say.... Forcing GM to bow down to the mighty union lol (comparing to mighty big red)! Silly? Yes! But does it make the point? Probably! Is it realistic? NOPE! Is it the same analogy as Verizon locking GPS, probably the closest! In the end, legal or not, theres no defending this practice!
    Last edited by RicanMedic78; 04-17-09 at 03:39 PM.
    04-17-09 03:33 PM
  13. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    as for your point... Forgive me for being exptremely generalized when I say this but.... It sounds to me like you're trying a little too hard here... Its as simple as vehicle AM/FM if you ask me!
    Try AM/FM/XM.

    AM=Voice

    FM=Data

    XM=GPS

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    04-17-09 03:39 PM
  14. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    am/fm radio = free from the manufaturer / like RIM GPS
    XM = independant service (collects its own profits)
    Onstar = independant service/GM partner

    Why try so hard? Agree with a lawsuit or not, thats fine! But to defend the right/wrong aspect of it seems odd to me
    04-17-09 03:44 PM
  15. Kevon's Avatar
    I just want to know 2 things?

    Does verizon own the satellites that you get a gps signal from?

    Does recieving these gps signals require you to utilize bandwidth on the verizon network?

    I didn't think so
    This is kind of like tomtom trying to charge you a monthly fee to use the gps.
    the phone is gps capable.
    let the people who bought the blackberry receive gps signals
    charge people to use vz nav if they choose to.
    04-17-09 03:57 PM
  16. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    Verizon does not own the satellites that provide GPS.

    But before Twins jumps in here, Verizon does own the network providing the assisted feature of the GPS.

    However!!!! BIG HOWEVER HERE! You pay for unlimited data! So for Verizon to claim that its data use affects their system enough to warrant a block is NON-SENSE! And if that were the case, then it would also apply to VZ Nav as well! But verizon plays favorites with its own FEE based application!

    In all honesty, I would prefer that the aGPS be unlocked 100% for a $9.99 fee. That way the welfare arguments can be put to rest, Verizon makes its money, and we're sort of all happy!

    Somehow, I bet that would never happen because then justification for the fee would be clear and on the table and against the competition! Where as with VZ Nav restriction, the mistery behind the blockage in general is there, despite the rediculous reasoning Verizon comes up with on an almost quarterly basis!

    When customers stay quiet, nothing happens! We screamed about WIFI and guess what! Storm 2.... WIFI!!! Words count! And if those pro GPS blockage folks just shut up and joined aboard, we'd get this resolved as well! And in my mind, even faster than the entire WIFI issue!!!
    Last edited by RicanMedic78; 04-17-09 at 04:08 PM.
    04-17-09 04:01 PM
  17. Kevon's Avatar
    I'm just happy I don't have to pay to use bluetooth.
    04-17-09 04:11 PM
  18. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    I'm just happy I don't have to pay to use bluetooth.
    HAHA! Be careful not to jynx it! There are plenty of coolaid addicts here that will support em if they made bluetooth fee based!

    VERIZON IS ABOUT PROFIT!!! IT's THEIR NETWORK! THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO....... u get the idea...
    04-17-09 04:30 PM
  19. Kevon's Avatar
    HAHA! Be careful not to jynx it! There are plenty of coolaid addicts here that will support em if they made bluetooth fee based!

    VERIZON IS ABOUT PROFIT!!! IT's THEIR NETWORK! THEY HAVE THE RIGHT TO....... u get the idea...

    well, it really is their network,
    and they really are out for money,
    and they can charge for gps if they want
    and we can always leave..... for $175
    04-17-09 04:42 PM
  20. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    However!!!! BIG HOWEVER HERE! You pay for unlimited data! So for Verizon to claim that its data use affects their system enough to warrant a block is NON-SENSE! And if that were the case, then it would also apply to VZ Nav as well! But verizon plays favorites with its own FEE based application!
    You do get unlimited data and the GPS access is free - but you're missing the fact that VZW has an application and approval process to access their PDE.

    Just a few items/conditions that need clearance and this is beyond the initial application process.

    1) Your application must only access locating data for the device making the request.

    2) You agree to not use any information from the PDE for any reason other than delivering location data to the network device making the request.

    3) Your application must not adversely affect the VZW network or the privacy of customers on the network.

    4) Your application may not collect any personal information from the device.

    5) Your application may not, within reason, adversely affect operation of devices on the network.

    These are not exact quotes from the secondary process, but the idea behind the provisions is accurate.

    Any Google app is out the window on at least four of the five above. The MapQuest app (MQ is owned by AOL) would fail on 3 of 5 (and possibly 4 of 5) of those provisions. Garmin requires a good sized media card, so they may fail on number 5. RIM agreed to these terms and BBMaps passed muster. That transaction was initiated by RIM and not VZW. It required some of the improvements we saw in the 4.5 release.

    So, why not some blame on the third-party app providers? They don't want to give up access to your information or VZW's customer base, so they don't get approved.

    We don't see anyone hammering on RIM for not opening their API, which severely limits some things a BlackBerry can do, compared with WinMo. Threaded SMS anyone? Full geocaching ability? The list is too long for this space (not like that has stopped me before).

    Maybe someone will want info on filing a class-action against RIM next.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Last edited by TwinsX2Dad; 04-17-09 at 04:52 PM.
    04-17-09 04:49 PM
  21. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    u know... when a company gets big enough like Verizon, microsoft, AIG, airlines, etc, you have to take the "its their company" mentality out of your mind. I'm all for free market, but once you start to affect the entire system through millions of subscribers, you then have a responsiblity to the public as a big business entity (be it through customers, employee rights, government certification of your product, etc). Government sees it this way and is its reasoning for the laws on the books today in evry aspect of business.

    The "its their company" mentality is a term more useful for small business (pizza shop, etc). When you affect millions of subscribers, users, customers, you fall under a different category of business and you can't just do whatever you want and claim, "its your network!" Any novis legal researcher can pull up cases, state or federal that have made countless rulings against companies for that very line of thought "its our service!"
    Last edited by RicanMedic78; 04-17-09 at 04:57 PM.
    04-17-09 04:54 PM
  22. Kevon's Avatar

    But before Twins jumps in here,

    I had no idea what this meant initially
    now I know
    04-17-09 04:56 PM
  23. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    I had no idea what this meant initially
    now I know
    Yes - RM thinks I am so ominpotent that I can jump between the paragraphs of his posts before he hits the "Post Reply" button.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    04-17-09 05:01 PM
  24. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    You do get unlimited data and the GPS access is free - but you're missing the fact that VZW has an application and approval process to access their PDE.

    Just a few items/conditions that need clearance and this is beyond the initial application process.

    1) Your application must only access locating data for the device making the request.

    2) You agree to not use any information from the PDE for any reason other than delivering location data to the network device making the request.

    3) Your application must not adversely affect the VZW network or the privacy of customers on the network.

    4) Your application may not collect any personal information from the device.

    5) Your application may not, within reason, adversely affect operation of devices on the network.

    These are not exact quotes from the secondary process, but the idea behind the provisions is accurate.

    Any Google app is out the window on at least four of the five above. The MapQuest app (MQ is owned by AOL) would fail on 3 of 5 (and possibly 4 of 5) of those provisions. Garmin requires a good sized media card, so they may fail on number 5. RIM agreed to these terms and BBMaps passed muster. That transaction was initiated by RIM and not VZW. It required some of the improvements we saw in the 4.5 release.

    So, why not some blame on the third-party app providers? They don't want to give up access to your information or VZW's customer base, so they don't get approved.

    We don't see anyone hammering on RIM for not opening their API, which severely limits some things a BlackBerry can do, compared with WinMo. Threaded SMS anyone? Full geocaching ability? The list is too long for this space (not like that has stopped me before).

    Maybe someone will want info on filing a class-action against RIM next.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    This is a new argument frm you Twins... Its getting interesting

    The reasons and justifications change almost as much as it does when Verizon does it through official channels!

    its funny how verizon doesn't block 3rd party blackberry apps across the board! So all apps are generally ok, but BUT ...... GPS apps don't go through ANY sort of certification process for accessing its network therefore Verizon's just looking out for the customer and network quality right?

    Monopoly is not the issue at all?
    Last edited by RicanMedic78; 04-17-09 at 05:05 PM.
    04-17-09 05:01 PM
  25. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    Yes - RM thinks I am so ominpotent that I can jump between the paragraphs of his posts before he hits the "Post Reply" button.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    all from the WAP forums too! Truly impressive if I do say so myself
    04-17-09 05:03 PM
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