04-18-09 03:25 PM
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  1. anon(368121)'s Avatar
    It IS for your good as well as ours. Network stability requires heavy security measures, and disallowing most gps capabilities except ours (we KNOW ours is safe) seemed the best way to go until some GPS makers actually put harsher security standards on their own programs.
    Have there been cases of PDEs being breached for nefarious purposes? Pollution of ephemeris data? I understand the bandwidth issue surrounding freely-available aGPS, but I'm having a hard time understanding the risk to the network. Other providers provision their handhelds with the PDE address and port (and therefore enabling aGPS) with no apparent security issues.
    04-13-09 10:52 PM
  2. DesertDogs's Avatar
    There hasn't been any on Verizon because they don't allow it. Google and other can track you and get info about you on Sprint even if you never use the GPS or even if you can't install software. CDMA is secure even against the government. Open up the gps and most of that security goes right out the window. Google and AOL can sell your info even though you never agreed to do business with them. Your security on Sprint with their open database isn't much safer than it is on any GSM network. And that sucks.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    04-13-09 11:02 PM
  3. angelalynn79's Avatar
    There hasn't been any on Verizon because they don't allow it. Google and other can track you and get info about you on Sprint even if you never use the GPS or even if you can't install software. CDMA is secure even against the government. Open up the gps and most of that security goes right out the window. Google and AOL can sell your info even though you never agreed to do business with them. Your security on Sprint with their open database isn't much safer than it is on any GSM network. And that sucks.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    That was my point, exactly. It's not that you are able to do it now - it's that the possibility is there. And yes, we are talking about government towers here - I wonder how much of this whole debate has to do with the CDMA/GSM difference... I know everyone will say "but Sprint (whatever)" but that's just blah, blah. I'm not going to compare anything to Sprint because they frankly suck - their phones suck, their customer service sucks, signal sucks, etc. Any comparison is worthless because if Verizon starting having anything in common with Sprint, I'd dump them immediately.

    Again - solid point is that this is still a privacy issue and not what the average joe "thinks" could happen - but what actually could. I don't need my government's GPS (or aGPS sorry) hacked into - I need it secure so no one can find them. Besides - stalkers... ick. I don't want them on some weird internet service tracking me down.

    That said - I wonder how much of it is caused by restrictions of the data by CDMA - plus things that we don't know about. For example, why does Verizon use Brew technology almost exclusively? Is it a "we like to inspect all our programs to make sure that they will work with our system and not contain harmful viruses" issue... or is it "we paid off BREW a long time ago so that we wouldn't have a copyright/usage issue"... Does BREW then have a conflict with Google Maps, or other free aGPS programs? Meaning - is Verizon in a contract with on this GPS deal? Or is it a bandwith issue - is the CDMA capable of handling all the GPS and all the phone calls and data simultaneously or will it start dumping calls at that point? If so - then to me GPS is secondary - because after all - this is a cell phone (I think some people forget that). Then does Verizon push some of the GPS data transfers up to the GlobalStar satelittes - and they have to pay GlobalStar for access?

    I'll bet it's way more complicated than just Verizon wants to take your $10 a month... But anyway - I'm okay with it still. I'm one of the few that still believes that it's okay to pay a little extra for good service. Not meaning that VZNav offers that... I wish they'd improve the VZNav to make it worth paying for - that stupid thing sends me in the wrong direction constantly. However, if I have to pay $10 a month to access aGPS because they are keeping their network strong and can not do so without locking the aGPS out to 3rd party apps- then I'm really okay with that as well.

    HOWEVER - All that babbling aside I wonder simply how much of it comes down once again to Verizon being a bit behind the other carriers (AT&T/T-Mobile) in technology. The Storm can use Google Maps (I don't know what the fuss is about after all that - My hubby has a Storm and that Google Maps is useless IMHO) so perhaps later versions of the Blackberry will have it enabled as well... Will be interesting to watch.

    It'd be so much easier if Verizon could just explain the whole thing and not in such broad, generic terms.

    Last but not least - Yes indeedy when both the 8830 and 8130 were originally released they were advertised as "GPS Enabled" and thus the class action lawsuit. That is why Verizon now has the VZNav icon on all their advertising and packaging. They did not actually have this before that time.

    However, that lawsuit was named back in November 2007. Time to move on.
    04-14-09 08:42 AM
  4. DesertDogs's Avatar
    However, that lawsuit was named back in November 2007. Time to move on.
    Great post, by the way. One of the top ten in this thread. It is time to move on. So why hasn't anyone done so in this thread? Is it because so many are too lazy to read this whole thread with reason and logic and an open mind? Is it because too many people are hard headed and want what will hurt all? Most of the proGPS crowd sees the thread title and come in here to blind post. They don't give a damn what was written before.

    There are conspiracy types out there who tell us that the tiny RFID tags on merchandise are compromising our privacy and making us more vulnerable. They may be right or the technology may not yet allow this and they may be wrong for now. But RFID tags are a one way technology and are most often attached to packaging we throw away. So mostly any tracking would show the trip from the A&P to home then to the trash dump. RFID tags require a reader close by to know where that tag is at. Your cellphone is a different animal though as it is a two way tranceiver connected to a network. To use GPS on your phone is like having RFID tags pasted all over your body with a reader attached to your waist everywhere you go.

    The chipset in your phone does all of this. Your carrier can see where you are at at all times. This is bad enough. If you are on Verizon then only Verizon knows what you're up to. If you're on another carrier then any and all who have tracking software have access to your whereabouts. The government can track you and even the Chinese can track you. With a chip like on the Storm they can do this but can only see you. If agps is enabled then they can see everyone including people with the simplest flip phone who only need to make occasional voice calls.

    If you need or want GPS then get a receiver and not one that is two way like your cell. At least that Tomtom doesn't transmit your information anywhere. At least not yet.

    The guy who said he wasn't doing anything illegal is shortsighted. The first action to controlling honest people is to know their whereabouts and where they are moving.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    04-14-09 09:56 AM
  5. GeekNJ's Avatar
    Great post, by the way. One of the top ten in this thread. It is time to move on. So why hasn't anyone done so in this thread? Is it because so many are too lazy to read this whole thread with reason and logic and an open mind? Is it because too many people are hard headed and want what will hurt all? Most of the proGPS crowd sees the thread title and come in here to blind post. They don't give a damn what was written before.
    If *YOU* don't want it, just set it to 911 Only. Why should anyone that does want it have to lose out on something?

    You talk about how big brother is watching, yet you are ok with a company (Verizon) dictating our options vs allowing the customer to chose? Seems like you can't decide what YOU want.
    04-14-09 10:38 AM
  6. DesertDogs's Avatar
    If *YOU* don't want it, just set it to 911 Only. Why should anyone that does want it have to lose out on something?

    You talk about how big brother is watching, yet you are ok with a company (Verizon) dictating our options vs allowing the customer to chose? Seems like you can't decide what YOU want.
    911 only still accesses the pde for your location and can track you all day. If you don't mind having your information shared with every creepy company and government out there then go with a company that will help you do just that.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    04-14-09 11:13 AM
  7. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    911 only still accesses the pde for your location and can track you all day. If you don't mind having your information shared with every creepy company and government out there then go with a company that will help you do just that.
    Not to mention the issue over VZW sharing info with the government a few years back after they were served with an order to do so. The government ordered it, VZW fought it, then was forced to comply - but then the same dolts who champion CPNI optouts, while demanding network info be spread around because they are too stupid to read a map or to at least buy a real GPS unit, blame VZW for breaching privacy.

    The hypocrites are usually clueless to their own hypocrisies.

    Quit demanding welfare GPS. Learn direction, buy a map or get a Garmin/TomTom.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    04-14-09 11:26 AM
  8. Cg2Chris's Avatar
    The GPS works with BB maps. What's the beef? If I want it to work with a third party program why should I not have to pay for it?

    Geeze...whine whine whine.
    04-14-09 11:34 AM
  9. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    While I usually agree with you (certainly on Verizon's legal right to control aGPS access), this is one aspect of the issue of control where things aren't so cut and dried.
    We agree on the fact it is VZW's network and not some subsidized public-use service. As such, it is their right to offer what they want and not offer what they don't want. Business decisions are made everyday; few as sound as the overall VZW operating plan. This is a company that has not seen net losses in customer base or profit - period. No other carrier can say the same. So these guys know what they are doing.

    If Verizon is using the maintenance of privacy, personal liberty and freedom as their core argument for eliminating subscriber access to GPS, it simply means that they are restricting our freedom to do as we see fit with our personal data rather than allowing us to make the decision for ourselves.

    If it's really a bandwidth issue, they should come clean on that. Verizon's flag-waving in the name of my rights as an individual while at the same time denying my ability to control what information is shared with my friends (and yes, the government) seems hypocritical.
    You miss the point - VZW isn't making any claims. They simply offer the minimum GPS capability, as required by law, and add a feature (VZNav) on top of it.

    The claims are all from the Internet community. VZW is in no way bound to disclose their reasons or the order they've prioritized those reasons. They simply choose to not offer network connectivity for outside applications to their PDE. They don't have to tell us why anymore than you should be telling us which toilet paper you use or whether you use sexual enhancement products. What you use in your bathroom/bedroom is your business and what VZW allows on their network is their business.

    I don't ask Google why they do things which are privacy-affecting. I simply choose to not use Google - and insist that even Google ads be blocked from networks I control. So I made a choice to not patronize them - I didn't insist they explain to me their anti-American slant.

    I will use Yahoo! but in a limited manner. I voice displeasure with them and their advertisers over their left-wing news reporting, but I don't find their searrch esults to be slanted. I just choose to not read their news reports.

    Speaking of Google/Yahoo, a buddy at AT&T tells me that the GPS & privacy issue was against VZW was started & fueled by Google. Based on their earlier years and their slant against the old AT&T, I can believe it. Too many people collectively & mindlessly getting too much info from the same source is dangerous & wrongheaded.

    In the end, it doesn't matter to me why they are doing anything. It is not my network. Much like I won't answer requests for my PIN or other personal information online - it is mine, not yours and I don't want to share it.

    In the corporate world, this is protecting proprietary information. In the private world, it is keeping the snickering to a minimum.

    Is it really anyone's business why VZW chose a red V? Is it really anyone's business why Google decides to do what they do? The only thing we are entitled to, with regard to the public actions is the info that they actually do it.

    It might be different had VZW plastered ads claiming an invalid reason, but they've been silent on the issue. I have brought up bits and pieces from all the possible reasons they are doing it - I base what I say on what I know about the technology as well as what I know about the company and what it stands for.

    As you know, I do not work for VZW, so I am in no way a representative for them, nor can I speak for them. I don't work for any carrier. But unlike the IT guys at your work, or the support rep at the carrier or the sales guy in the store or your favorite fansite operators or Joe, your next-door neighbor, I work with the carriers day in and day out. My work interfaces with technologies/infrastructure departments of most carriers. I have to sign really ominous agreements promising not to share proprietary information even with other departments within the same carrier.

    I can tell you this much - as is currently installed and in progress, there is already more LTE connectivity in the US than there is WiMAX and it is all from one carrier. From the looks of it, this one carrier will have more 4G coverage than some other carriers have 3G within about 18 months - but that could change as the schedule keeps getting ramped up further. With that, added GPS functionality may come, as the bandwidth bottleneck will be alleviated. But privacy issues will remain for aGPS access to the PDE as well as database sharing and licensing agreements.

    So while I cannot speak for them, I think I know more about the internal workings of carriers than many (or most/all/any) customer service managers or reps. Where these fine folks hold their trump card is plans, billing and handling customers. Many of them could do VZW today, United Health tomorrow and GEICO the next. But I know infrastructure and speak for no one other than myself.

    And I am extra good at pissing people off and in their Wheaties.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    04-14-09 01:44 PM
  10. GeekNJ's Avatar
    You miss the point - VZW isn't making any claims. They simply offer the minimum GPS capability, as required by law, and add a feature (VZNav) on top of it.

    The claims are all from the Internet community. VZW is in no way bound to disclose their reasons or the order they've prioritized those reasons
    Below is the response I received, copy and pasted word for word, from Verizon on Fri, April 18, 2008. It doesn't jive with your assessment.


    Verizon Wireless is committed to providing the very latest in products and services. The BlackBerry 8130's GPS chip is used to provide the handset's location to emergency responders when placing 911 calls. It does not provide any user accessible functionality such as location information for directions, mapping or any other application.

    At Verizon Wireless we value the security and privacy of our subscriber data and user information and we have taken this into account in the development of our location based services offerings. To alleviate concerns regarding access to data by malicious applications and misuse of location information, Verizon Wireless' location based services utilize a solution that requires each location request to be authenticated and accepted prior to a user's location being obtained through the network and used by authorized applications.

    Verizon Wireless does not provide support for the BlackBerry Maps application or 3rd party software that would be required to make full use of the 8130's GPS capabilities. As a result, the 8130's GPS functionality has not been enabled so that we are able to provide a standardized level of functionality and support for our advanced devices.

    04-14-09 02:08 PM
  11. thadealer's Avatar
    ........ because they are too stupid to read a map or to at least buy a real GPS unit,...........

    The hypocrites are usually clueless to their own hypocrisies.

    Quit demanding welfare GPS. Learn direction, buy a map or get a Garmin/TomTom.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com


    I LOVE IT!!!!! AWESOME POST!!!! These people want to start a law suit to get a crappy gps..... get a life...
    04-14-09 02:34 PM
  12. HopJokey's Avatar
    Slightly off topic, but can I use a bluetooth GPS receiver with my 8330?

    Reason being is that I want to use a golf GPS program with my Curve (golf trax).
    04-14-09 04:06 PM
  13. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    Below is the response I received, copy and pasted word for word, from Verizon on Fri, April 18, 2008. It doesn't jive with your assessment.
    Actually, it does. They sent you a form letter, with verbiage approved by legal counsel. It is more than they are required to tell you. It would be simpler to just say, "no, sorry, not offered here." But in your case, they offered extra.

    If that response was more than they had to give, it still doesn't require even more info and it doesn't negate the fact they don't offer the connectivity for the welfare GPS, nor are they likely to.

    Care to touch on more than just a semantics exercise with a single line I wrote? Maybe we can start with why you're paying money to a carrier that doesn't offer what you want. The one to two year contract couldn't be an issue, since the GPS thing has been well published for much longer than two years. You are free to head anywhere else - maybe to a carrier that will offer you these things.

    After all, arguing that VZW should offer you something that they don't when it has been known for years that they don't offer it is silly.

    DAMN! I WANT SUBARU TO MAKE A ONE-TON CREW-CAB 4X4!

    And yes, it is similar, because they do make them - they just choose to not make them for sale here.

    I don't like Google policies, so I don't use Google. Its as simple as that. There are alternatives. In fact, I found alternatives I like far better than Google.

    I've tried all major carriers, but have found none that are suitable other than VZW.

    I use VZW for communications. I don't need them to hold my hand and tell me where to go.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    04-14-09 04:26 PM
  14. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    Slightly off topic, but can I use a bluetooth GPS receiver with my 8330?

    Reason being is that I want to use a golf GPS program with my Curve (golf trax).
    Absolutely. GSat or Freedom work very well.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    04-14-09 04:27 PM
  15. GeekNJ's Avatar
    Ah, the old "switch providers" comeback. If you don't like it, take your ball and leave. There are many reasons folks are with Verizon. If it was only for GPS functionality, then I'm sure they would leave. Your Subaru analogy is off. It would be more like "Hey, I like my Subaru but I wish they made it with a bigger gas tank so I could go more miles between fill-ups.". I guess your response would be "Buy a Ford - they have bigger tanks. Stop complaining". I guess it's all or nothing with you.

    Same goes for when they turned off SMS delivery notification? Should we have just said ok and left it at that because we could always switch? There was enough feedback that they re-enabled the useful feature.

    First, you indicated:
    You miss the point - VZW isn't making any claims. They simply offer the minimum GPS capability, as required by law, and add a feature (VZNav) on top of it.

    The claims are all from the Internet community. VZW is in no way bound to disclose their reasons or the order they've prioritized those reasons. They simply choose to not offer network connectivity for outside applications to their PDE.
    The above text from Verizon indicates they communicated to their customers that they don't provide it for our security. Plain and simple text I posted. No reason to try and say otherwise.

    With the Storm, is the GPS enabled for 3rd party apps? Do they not care about our privacy if we have the Storm? Do the apps function differently?
    04-14-09 04:58 PM
  16. Darthkuriboh's Avatar
    Yes, they do. The 3rd party providers actually bothered to beef up their own security measures, which is why we are willing to (cautiously, I might add, and with great trepidation) allow 3rd party GPS to be used with the Storm.
    04-14-09 05:04 PM
  17. trumpsc's Avatar
    Companies are in business to make money. Sorry. Thats how it is. VZW spends billions on its network every year so your phone won't drop calls like an iphone. They just want to make theirs too.
    04-14-09 05:19 PM
  18. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    Ah, the old "switch providers" comeback. If you don't like it, take your ball and leave. There are many reasons folks are with Verizon. If it was only for GPS functionality, then I'm sure they would leave.
    Name me one technology product that provides everything. I like using cars because of all of the options and varieties they offer.

    If I wanted a nav system and it was important enough to me, I'd not choose a Pontiac GTO or a Viper or a Hyundai Accent.

    If I wanted a 5-passenger rear-wheel-drive platform, I'd have to avoid Subaru or Honda.

    If I wanted an off-road machine, say no to Ferrari, Maserati, Jaguar, Lotus & Aston Martin

    If I wanted a 200MPH two-place supercar, Ford is off my list.

    They all have four wheels, steering wheels & an engine. These cars all burn hydrocarbon fuels. They each have seats, transmissions & windows. They can all be driven on the same roads. But no matter how much I scream, cry & whine, I cannot run down to buy a Saleen 4X4.

    Verizon - 200MPH with full offroad capability - too bad it doesn't get 50MPG. If you want 50MPG, you need to give up the offroad stuff & get a VW Jetta TDI or AT&T.. Oh wait, you want to keep the offroad part, but give up the 200MPH? Stay at the VW store & look at the Toureg.

    Pretty much, if you have to have GPS, forget it on VZW unless you have a Storm. Or you can wait for another QC based BlackBerry that doesn't have an "a" at the end of the processor.

    By the way - not a lot of trepidation on the Storm GPS - it runs assisted on E911, VZNav & BBMaps. All the other apps run separate of the network.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    04-14-09 06:58 PM
  19. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    Companies are in business to make money. Sorry. Thats how it is. VZW spends billions on its network every year so your phone won't drop calls like an iphone. They just want to make theirs too.
    You are correct, but these days, too many people think companies are evil and each company owes them something. It is this low-level welfare mentality (and people's willingness to tolerate or even support it) that is causing a huge downturn in the world today.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    04-14-09 07:01 PM
  20. Oilersboy's Avatar
    lawsuit is not the answer because people forgot to ask verizon reps to see if they support GPS or not before buying blackberry devices.
    04-14-09 07:08 PM
  21. DesertDogs's Avatar
    I ordered coffee and spilled it on me. Wah, I want to sue!

    I cut myself with a Ginsu knife. Wah, I want to sue!

    I stepped on the gas instead of the brake. Wah, I want to sue!

    For those of you who while, cry and complain about something you did yourself or things that are unavailable, wah, wah, wah, wah, wah!

    There is no free lunch and the world doesn't owe you squat, you whining losers!

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    04-14-09 07:49 PM
  22. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    There is no free lunch and the world doesn't owe you squat, you whining losers!
    It is welfare GPS they want. And as an extension of your sentiments, WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!



    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    04-14-09 10:16 PM
  23. GeekNJ's Avatar
    DesertDogs - You've been a member here for 1 day and posted 17 times taking shots at other folks. Nice start. Your previous post in this thread was complaining people were reading and just posting. No one for a long time has said to sue Verizon. In fact, the title of the thread is silly, but if you start another thread about the same thing, someone will complain that you should post in the other thread.

    TwinsX2Dad - How about a car, with an AM/FM radio that only listens to the Verizon station unless you pay them more. Or of course, you could replace their radio with your own, at an additional cost even though the radio came with the car. An analogy a bit more in line then we want a VW Bus to go 0-60 in under 4 secs.

    But we shouldn't complain about it, just suck it up and be happy? I guess that's how change happens. I guess you would have voted for Bush again.
    04-14-09 10:32 PM
  24. DesertDogs's Avatar
    But we shouldn't complain about it, just suck it up and be happy? I guess that's how change happens. I guess you would have voted for Bush again.
    No the way you change things is by taking your money elsewhere and letting them know why you left.

    And to your first comment, I have been here a lot longer than many here have been. But that's what happens when you drop an online accout and cannot recover your lost password because it goes to an email account you don't have anymore. No big deal. I just created another one on my current email account and left several hundred posts behind. The fresh start is nice so I habe not gone around with the attention getting ploy of telling everyone I am back as someone new. When you haven't posted in close to a year, who you were before means nothing. I call things as I see them and my old CO taught me that I should never pull any punches.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    04-15-09 02:05 AM
  25. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    DesertDogs - You've been a member here for 1 day and posted 17 times taking shots at other folks.
    Since when does tenure here mean anything?it certainly doesn't make you smarter - to the contrary, it makes some dumber.

    This entire conversation has gone in circles many times over. Any argument probably has already been made. Any question has probably been answered. Any comment or opinion has probably been voiced. Go back and read, because for now, I am tired of it.

    As Dogs mentioned, if you don't like it, go elswhere. Ranting and raving here or trying your best to "catch" someone in a post is not going to change anything. The only thing that will change anything is direct customer input to the company providing the service. If that fails, take your money elsewhere.

    It has been mentioned that there are many reasons people choose VZW. Maybe something to be considered is that the opening of the PDE would compromise some of the other advantages VZW offers. If you think otherwise, you're more than welcome to start your own carrier. Oh wait - you can't afford to do that? Then you need to be happy with being a consumer & not a provider.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    04-15-09 10:11 AM
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