04-18-09 02:25 PM
685 ... 1819202122 ...
tools
  1. anon(368121)'s Avatar
    Geez, thanks a lot, mate.

    Like others have pointed out, there's a difference between getting a GPS location and getting a turn-by-turn navigation system. I just wanted to know if Verizon were so backwards as to cripple the GPS to only work with turn-by-turn or whether the OP and others don't realize this.

    Sorry I dared to ask such a controversial question...
    Ok, I'll cut you some slack because you seem to be one o' them furriners. We don't get 'em often in the Verizon forum, bein' all CDMA and such.

    No, you don't get a GPS location display in Options | Advanced Options | GPS. Just ain't there on Verizon.
    03-31-09 09:35 PM
  2. anon(368121)'s Avatar
    NO, NO, NO! While I have the firepower to do it, my grandfather told me too many years ago to NEVER kill a voice of reason and intelligence.
    Reason and Intelligence? Just who are you talking about?
    03-31-09 09:43 PM
  3. holladay42's Avatar
    I think we are all forgetting that we are buying a phone owned by verizon not RIM. RIM does not sell phones, they make phones for service providers. The service providers own the phone, so they can then do what ever they want. and u decided wether or not u want to buy it. If u dont like it, it is ur fault (and anyone else that doesnt like it) for buying it. There is absolutely nothing u can do about it

    Now as far as misrepresentation, meaning verizon advertised that u would be able to use the gps with third party software no matter what, then u might have a case. But actually u dont because, verizon never said gps can be used other than with verizon software. Sure they say it comes with gps, but gps is a piece of hardware and in fact it does come with that hardware so therefore no misrepresentation
    Last edited by holladay42; 03-31-09 at 09:53 PM. Reason: s
    03-31-09 09:52 PM
  4. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    Reason and Intelligence? Just who are you talking about?
    You want honesty or do you want your ego stroked?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    03-31-09 09:53 PM
  5. anon(368121)'s Avatar
    You want honesty or do you want your ego stroked?
    Well, since the choices appear to be mutually exclusive, I'll go with the ego thing

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    03-31-09 10:11 PM
  6. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    Well, since the choices appear to be mutually exclusive, I'll go with the ego thing
    Well, if you must.

    I will go out on a limb & say that based on your writings, they wouldn't be mutually exclusive at all.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    03-31-09 10:18 PM
  7. mendymendy's Avatar
    I got this EXACT call today, a guy trying to use every kind of GPS other than VZNAV, I told him it wasn't possible, and apparently Verizon had a press release saying that we were unblocking GPS.. I advised him that is not true, and told him to check this thread out if he didn't believe me.

    Niiiice.
    It is possible to use BlackBerry maps with GPS. This change took place in recent weeks. Google Maps still won't work, and location tagging on the camera won't work.
    What amazes me is what Verizon reps don't know about the company's products. I had a VZ rep on the phone who told me there is no way I can use a e-mail address on the blackberry for outgoing messages only.... I figured it out while the rep was still on the phone: I changed the settings online at the VZW/Blackberry server.
    04-06-09 06:35 PM
  8. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    What amazes me is what Verizon reps don't know about the company's products. I had a VZ rep on the phone who told me there is no way I can use a e-mail address on the blackberry for outgoing messages only.... I figured it out while the rep was still on the phone: I changed the settings online at the VZW/Blackberry server.
    This is why, regardless of the carrier, the first words out of my mouth are:

    How familiar are you with BlackBerry?

    I actually had one rep (VZW) tell me that adding software to a smartphone would void the warranty and was a violation of the TOS.

    Some people...

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    04-06-09 06:53 PM
  9. mendymendy's Avatar
    Your premise is wrong. If you go back in this thread, you will find that it is aGPS and that aGPS REQUIRES network interactivity to operate. The "a" is "assisted" and will NOT work on its own. It is not a dual-mode GPS chip, like the one on the Storm and it is either off or it is on - there is no functionality for any software intervention in between. If there were some form of locking, whether in the OS or the firmware, why hasn't anyone been able to hack it? And why is it that running Sprint, USCellular or any other carrier software doesn't "unlock" it?

    I have two VZW 8330 Curves that I use on a regular basis. One is special, as it came with a dual-mode GPS chip in it. I can run Garmin, GoogleMaps & MapQuest, without a puck, and it works flawlessly. 2-3 meter accuracy on it. The other requires a puck. Both are running the same firmware & OS and both are on VZW. Why is one of them not "blocked" or "locked" as you assert?

    Then there is your assertion that VZW advertised the phones as being GPS capable. In every ad, each publication, there is a disclaimer. It is a similar disclaimer to those advertised on the AT&T site for a variety of phones from Moto, Nokia, etc.

    Why would a "reasonable person" think their BlackBerry with aGPS should work any differently than a Razr on AT&T with a similar aGPS chip? The legal departments of RIM, VZW, LG, Motorola, AT&T, Samsung, HTC, etc. must all be wrong while you are correct, I guess.

    Your reasoning is not that of a reasonable person. Your comparison of Facebook & GPS functionality is like me throwing a fit because I cannot take a Piper Apache drive to work. In reality, your argument is like the guy who buys a Toyota RAV4, then gets mad because it can't run the Rubicon - gee, they TOLD me it had 4WD and could go offroad! Toyota need to stop their false advertising! Let's start a class action suit!

    I remember a few dolts who bought Acura NSX sports cars, who then sued Honda/Yokohama because they were only getting 8000 miles on a set of tires - the same dolts who were then given longer-lasting tires, but then threw a fit over the fact their NSX didn't handle as well with the new tires. Never mind the fact that Yokohama A-008 tires are still one of the top choices for performance drivers and similar tires from other manufacturers have similar treadlife.

    In the Toyota scenario, it would take a complete redesign of the RAV4. It is, after all, based on a front-wheel-drive car. With the NSX, it was unreasonable expectations - something that is common when you bring supercar performance to the masses at a price they can afford. Similar tires on Porsche, Lamborghini & Ferarri last - oops - about 8000 miles.

    You want a Curve with a dual-mode GPS? VZW has already shown on many models (both RIM and non-RIM) that GPS is open. On the Curve, it would take a redesign, incorporating the new chip, and probably a price increase, as dual-mode chips cost 2-3 times what a single-mode costs.

    If you want full-blown GPS on VZW, it isn't VZW's fault you chose the wrong device to do it.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    If I had time to waste, I'd definitely answer all of your points, but I have an exiciting new trading strategy that I'm working on, so I won't bother. U.S. vs. Microsoft was brought by the government (hence the "U.S." in then name of the suit...), not by Netscape. Only the government can bring an anti-trust suit. The government brings it when people complain, and it's intended primarily to protect the interest of consumers.
    04-06-09 06:54 PM
  10. anon(368121)'s Avatar
    It is possible to use BlackBerry maps with GPS. This change took place in recent weeks. Google Maps still won't work, and location tagging on the camera won't work.
    What amazes me is what Verizon reps don't know about the company's products. I had a VZ rep on the phone who told me there is no way I can use a e-mail address on the blackberry for outgoing messages only.... I figured it out while the rep was still on the phone: I changed the settings online at the VZW/Blackberry server.
    The change to support BBMaps actually occurred in the fall of last year, so your "recent weeks" statement is, well, just a tiny bit off.

    You seem somewhat subdued, though. I hope you haven't lost your fighting spirit . . . we were having so much fun on your last visit!

    PS. Oops, I see you're still ornery. Let the battle begin!!!!
    04-06-09 06:59 PM
  11. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    If I had time to waste, I'd definitely answer all of your points, but I have an exiciting new trading strategy that I'm working on, so I won't bother. U.S. vs. Microsoft was brought by the government (hence the "U.S." in then name of the suit...), not by Netscape.
    Very true, but this action came about due to complaints by Netscape and other smaller companies. If no one complained, there would not have been any action.

    Notice where it got Netscape.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    04-06-09 07:00 PM
  12. anon(368121)'s Avatar
    If I had time to waste, I'd definitely answer all of your points, but I have an exiciting new trading strategy that I'm working on, so I won't bother. U.S. vs. Microsoft was brought by the government (hence the "U.S." in then name of the suit...), not by Netscape. Only the government can bring an anti-trust suit. The government brings it when people complain, and it's intended primarily to protect the interest of consumers.
    Wow, that wasn't remotely related to any of the points in his post. Want a little mustard with that hibiscus?
    04-06-09 07:04 PM
  13. Fire-Detention's Avatar
    I have never had a problem with gps. and i have a curve.
    04-06-09 07:07 PM
  14. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    Wow, that wasn't remotely related to any of the points in his post. Want a little mustard with that hibiscus?
    You like the way they choose to pick out three words, ignoring the entire context of the conversation at hand?

    Although hibiscuc is tasty. Mustard (real mustard & not that yellow crud) is wonderful. But MUSTARD ON HIBISCUS?

    I tried to ignore his faux pas with my response, but chances are, he won't be back - hit & run antagonists...

    I have never had a problem with gps. and i have a curve.
    I never have either. Then again, I don't feel the need to get all bent out of shape because my phone can or cannot locate me in Lower Elbonia.

    For that, I have real GPS devices and nav systems in my cars. And the vast majority of the time, I am intelligent enough to know where I am, where I am going and I don't have to rely on Google to tell me every answer in life.
    04-06-09 08:00 PM
  15. stengen's Avatar
    The device has the ability to receive GPS signals...

    GPS is something we all paid for through our tax dollars...

    GPS is FREE from the government

    Perhaps VZW blocking / jamming of GPS reception is illegal per the FCC?
    04-07-09 09:17 AM
  16. anon(368121)'s Avatar
    The device has the ability to receive GPS signals...

    GPS is something we all paid for through our tax dollars...

    GPS is FREE from the government

    Perhaps VZW blocking / jamming of GPS reception is illegal per the FCC?
    They're not jamming or blocking it. There are a number of posts in this very thread that describe the aGPS mechanism and Verizon's control over the aspects of it that impact their bandwidth and hardware.

    Please pay attention.
    04-07-09 09:39 AM
  17. anon(368121)'s Avatar
    You like the way they choose to pick out three words, ignoring the entire context of the conversation at hand?

    Although hibiscuc is tasty. Mustard (real mustard & not that yellow crud) is wonderful. But MUSTARD ON HIBISCUS?
    Sorry, best non-sequitur (like his post) I could come up with on such short notice. I promise to do better in the future
    04-07-09 09:41 AM
  18. mikeash01's Avatar
    Ya know maybe you could just "unlock" the phone and then really screw "the man!"
    04-07-09 10:28 AM
  19. stengen's Avatar
    Dodge Deboulet

    That is pretty funny about paying attention....

    Reading all the opinions and flat our lies is very humorous indeed. Add that to VZW and the security aspect adds to the laughter. If they are so concerned about security then why open it up to BB Maps? Why have any other phone that is GPS capable?

    Seems like everyone has gone out of the way to hide what GPS this device really does have. aGPS or GPS standalone....
    04-07-09 12:04 PM
  20. shwemp's Avatar
    Where are some of you coming up with your information? When I look at the RIM developer documentation I don't see anything mentioning a "single mode" or "dual mode" gps chip or information on Verizon restricting aGPS because of network security.

    Here's a long summary of what I found.

    The following CDMA Blackberry devices contain a Qualcomm gpsOne chipset:
    8130
    8330
    8830

    Depending on the criteria set by an application, a Qualcomm gpsOne chip can be in any of the following modes:

    Standalone
    -MS (Mobile Station or Device) operates in standalone-only mode
    -No network or Position Determination Entity (PDE) for position-location-related activity
    -Data demodulation (if required) occurs without an ephemeris download from the PDE
    -Recommended for outdoor use only; requires a clear view of the sky
    -Time To First Fix (TTFF) can be affected by cloud cover and/or urban canyons

    MS-based
    -MS-operation in MS-based mode
    -Only seed position is calculated using MS-assisted mode
    -Suitable for applications requiring frequent fixes
    -Operates outdoors and indoors with a partial view of the sky

    MS-assisted
    -MS operates in MS-assisted/PDE-based position calculation mode only
    -No MS-based position location fixes for the active sessions
    -No ephemeris downloads from PDE and no data demodulation
    -Suitable for single fixes
    Note: Applications that need frequent fixes should not operate in this mode because this may result in data charges from the wireless service provider

    -Operates anywhere with a network connection


    There are three more modes that use a combination of MS-Based and MS-Assisted to achieve a location fix.

    Speed optimal
    -MS-based position calculation is preferred
    -PDE-based fix/MS-assisted mode is done only if MS-based position calculation fix fails
    -Ephemeris download from PDE is preferred as compared with data demodulation

    Accuracy optimal
    -PDE-based position calculation/MS-assisted mode is a preferred option MS-based position calculation only if PDE-based fix failsEphemeris download from PDE is preferred as compared with data demodulation

    Data optimal
    -Standalone mode is the preferred option and minimum PDE/network access is allowed
    -Data demodulation is preferred as compared with ephemeris download from PDE
    -MS-assisted position fix if MS-based position calculation fails to generate a fix
    -Data optimal mode disables SA download

    Finally, another mode that simply returns the location of the cellular transmission site in contact with the BlackBerry smartphone is known as CellSite. This mode is not part of Qualcomm gpsOne but is worth mentioning. Accuracy of this mode is obviously low: 400m to 2500m in urban areas and will vary by location. CellSite is recommended when accuracy is of least concern.

    The only mention of gps applications on Verizon devices are the following two remarks:
    Note: Verizon does not support the Standalone mode. For BlackBerry Device Software 4.7 and later, Standalone mode is open to applications that are signed by Research In Motion.

    Setting up Verizon credentials
    Verizon requires third-party applications to have a valid Client ID and Password for their Location Proxy Server (LPS) to access the Location API. To obtain these credentials, contact Verizon.


    So, it appears to me that the three devices listed above all have the same gpsOne chip regardless of carrier and the LBS API requires a check of the carrier. If the carrier is Verizon then the LBS API cannot use standalone mode on an OS earlier than 4.7. If the gps application wants to use MS-based or MS-assisted and the carrier is Verizon then special criteria must be used to access the LBS API regardless of OS version.

    Stand alone mode does not use any network resources so I have no idea why Verizon would not support this mode.

    The Verizon developer program allows developers to submit their LBS applications for approval with fees in order to receive the PDE credentials. It appears that upon approval the LBS application would have to be distributed through Verizon channels. Perhaps this is why there are not many gps apps that use the PDE server.

    Thoughts?
    04-07-09 12:37 PM
  21. anon(368121)'s Avatar
    Dodge Deboulet

    That is pretty funny about paying attention....
    Hmm. Wasn't meant to be funny.

    Reading all the opinions and flat our lies is very humorous indeed. Add that to VZW and the security aspect adds to the laughter. If they are so concerned about security then why open it up to BB Maps? Why have any other phone that is GPS capable?
    It's opened to BB Maps because BB Maps is provided by RIM, and optimized for Verizon's bandwidth requirements. It would seem odd to include an application that is non-functional, now wouldn't it?

    Seems like everyone has gone out of the way to hide what GPS this device really does have. aGPS or GPS standalone....
    If you think it's hidden, it's because you aren't looking very hard. But I'll share

    Curve 8330
    - aGPS, with a short production run from Canada that was also equipped with autonomous GPS.

    Storm 8530 - aGPS and autonomous GPS.

    8830WE - aGPS

    Applications that use aGPS must be designed to fall back to autonomous GPS to work on the Storm or the limited run of Curves.
    04-07-09 12:44 PM
  22. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    Stand alone mode does not use any network resources so I have no idea why Verizon would not support this mode.

    The Verizon developer program allows developers to submit their LBS applications for approval with fees in order to receive the PDE credentials. It appears that upon approval the LBS application would have to be distributed through Verizon channels. Perhaps this is why there are not many gps apps that use the PDE server.

    Thoughts?
    You are correct in your assessment of standalone not using network resources. As such, a chip capable of standalone operation would not be limited or controllable by VZW or any carrier. If a chip requires access to PDE info, this is where the problem begins.

    From my understanding, all new RIM devices will be using GPS like that found in the Storm/Bold - this may explain the developers info you found. The fact remains though, that from the Curve back, all BlackBerrys were running aGPS as spec and aGPS requires PDE determination data.

    I am one of those who was blessed with an autonomous Curve. We have several dozen of them running around here and this is the only one that works with GPS. It took me quite a bit of back & forth to get someone to admit it "might" have a newer chip in it, as I originally thought this one's settings had a trick I was missing.

    Through updates to the OS, including some tries at the much-overhyped .131 version, this one has maintained its GPS capability, while the others never got it.

    If VZW was able to cripple it and wanted to keep GPS out of my hands, why haven't they shut down the Curve in my hand? Why do they allow several WinMo/Palm/Storm phones to have it, but not Curve/Pearl/WE?

    The settings are the same in all the devices I have, yet one is special.

    Looking at it reasonably and rationally points to the fact the internal components are different.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    04-07-09 07:00 PM
  23. shwemp's Avatar
    You are correct in your assessment of standalone not using network resources. As such, a chip capable of standalone operation would not be limited or controllable by VZW or any carrier. If a chip requires access to PDE info, this is where the problem begins.
    It's not the chip, it's the API that accesses the chip. Applications use the API to tell the chip which mode to use. The documentation clearly states Verizon does not support the use of standalone mode via the LBS API on OS 4.7 or below.

    The gpsOne chip is capable of standalone and its use is being controlled by the carrier.
    04-07-09 07:44 PM
  24. anon(368121)'s Avatar
    It's not the chip, it's the API that accesses the chip. Applications use the API to tell the chip which mode to use. The documentation clearly states Verizon does not support the use of standalone mode via the LBS API on OS 4.7 or below.

    The gpsOne chip is capable of standalone and its use is being controlled by the carrier.
    Verizon doesn't develop firmware. All providers get the same firmware from RIM.
    04-07-09 08:39 PM
  25. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    It's not the chip, it's the API that accesses the chip. Applications use the API to tell the chip which mode to use. The documentation clearly states Verizon does not support the use of standalone mode via the LBS API on OS 4.7 or below.

    The gpsOne chip is capable of standalone and its use is being controlled by the carrier.
    Actually, it isn't capable of standalone operation within a mobile phone as the circuitry is tied into the device and has shared circuitry. Think about it the way you might with video on your computer. Is a motherboard-based nVidia video function as good as a separate card? No, it isn't.

    As far as the statement about what VZW allows or doesn't allow, that is because the device, as received from the manufacturer, requires access to the network PDE, something that VZW is protective of for privacy concerns and costs. Licensing also plays a big part of it. Google doesn't want to pay VZW for data, but wants a huge fee for access to theirs by a commercial entity.

    Two opinions on gpsOne can be found here:

    http://www.wmexperts.com/articles/ed...s_not_gps.html

    https://www.phonescoop.com/glossary/term.php?gid=125

    ________________________
    From phonescoop:

    Phones with gpsOne can receive raw signals directly from GPS satellites, but require a live connection to a network-based location server to do so. The location server helps the phone find the correct satellites. The location server also processes the raw signals and makes the final calculations that determine location.

    ________________________
    From PCDPhones:

    GPSOne
    A technology solution that combines GPS and wireless network infrastructure to provide enhanced position location services. GPSOne accelerates the location determination process and provides industry-leading accuracy for callers' E911 or GPS-enabled commercial applications.

    ________________________
    And from wikipedia:

    gpsOne is primarily used today for Enhanced-911 E911 service, allowing your cell phone to relay your location to emergency dispatchers, one of the traditional shortcomings of cellular phone technology. Using a combination of GPS satellite signals and the cell towers themselves, gpsOne allows your location to be plotted with greater accuracy than traditional GPS systems in areas where satellite reception is problematic due to buildings or terrain.
    ________________________

    The Qualcomm product comes in several flavors - the least expensive is what is found in the older RIM devices. Not all will handle standalone or autonomous mode. From the Pearl/Curve back to 2000, you are looking at RIM putting the bottom end in their devices, as does most other manufacturers.

    If the unit is not designed to handle standalone mode, it isn't happening. Some carriers value their network & customer privacy too much to allow access to their PDE to just any outside source.

    Notice how all of the reviewers mention combining satellite AND network?

    Here's a little different look. I can turn off the radio on the pair of Curves I carry. The one that handles full GPS still locates. The one that doesn't, BBM & VZNav all quit.

    It will be moot soon - LTE will remove data concerns & new customer demand will take care of the rest.

    Still, GPS on the Storm or Curve or WinMo or whatever flatout stinks in comparison with ANY of my standalone GPS solutions.

    Verizon doesn't develop firmware. All providers get the same firmware from RIM.
    No Dodge - didn't you hear? VZW can do all! They are in the minds & hearts of RIM, LG, Chevrolet, Dell, the Iraq War commanders and even Charles Manson! Surely you got the memo where Verizon was the one who told old Charlie to kill those people.
    04-07-09 08:45 PM
685 ... 1819202122 ...
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD