04-18-09 02:25 PM
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  1. jrd231psu's Avatar
    I want firefox! Is it my right to have it? Can microsoft develope a version of its operating system that monopolizes and allows IE to be the sole provider to internet browsing? The law says its my right to have and use firefox and microsoft, despite being the sole maker of its OS must provide access to allow for fair competition

    bandwith excuse holds no water once you allow 1 sole program access to its network, especially when that program is its own with its own service fee
    Apples and oranges again. It's the same as the alarm clock analogy. There are no more costs associated with using a web browser for Microsoft. That's where the difference is. Verizon maintains their network and it has a cost of doing business for them. Thus, they have every right to restrict access to it, it is a resource of theirs. Once you buy Windows it's no longer a resource of Microsoft. So once again, you're comparing apples to oranges.

    Agree to disagree?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    02-26-09 10:53 AM
  2. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    Apples and oranges again. It's the same as the alarm clock analogy. There are no more costs associated with using a web browser for Microsoft. That's where the difference is. Verizon maintains their network and it has a cost of doing business for them. Thus, they have every right to restrict access to it, it is a resource of theirs. Once you buy Windows it's no longer a resource of Microsoft. So once again, you're comparing apples to oranges.

    Agree to disagree?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

    you failed to read my analogy on the previous page. Reread it and come back and tell me again if under the terms I described, if they are allowed to restrict... considering that ur only issue is ....... bandwith
    Last edited by RicanMedic78; 02-26-09 at 11:07 AM.
    02-26-09 11:01 AM
  3. jrd231psu's Avatar
    I concede all previous points I made.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    02-26-09 11:08 AM
  4. eve6er69's Avatar
    so what the original argument is about it that vz forced you to use vznav and pay the 9.99 a month instead of being able to buy a garmin software to install on the phone for 1 flat price and utilize the phones gps capabilities?
    02-26-09 11:09 AM
  5. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    so what the original argument is about it that vz forced you to use vznav and pay the 9.99 a month instead of being able to buy a garmin software to install on the phone for 1 flat price and utilize the phones gps capabilities?
    Correct... in sessence, monopolizing its GPS functionality to its own provider.

    Here are the arguments:

    Bathwith restriction argument: If the data used is sustainable for VZ Nav, then its sustainable for garmin mobile, or mapquest mobile, or any other GPS functionality. Even though there are variations in data use.... see options below on charging for this

    "Its their network" argument: It is true that these phones do have an assisted feature utilizing the network for GPS functionality. However, the argument I am making is that if verizon tolerates the bandwith for a $9.99 fee (as is with VZ Nav), then they can charge $9.99 for "general GPS" and unlock it for all 3rd party apps. Or charge a specific GPS data fee per kb. That is, if their reasons for blocking GPS is true and not monopolozing in nature. Now, if they want to monopolize on VZ Nav, then they still restrict based on that premise alone then its illegal in my view. Why? Read below

    Legal argument of opinion: If you allow 1 program, you must allow fair competition to reign. Only way to restrict is if you restrict it all claiming that it threatens the integrity of the network. If verizon wants to charge for the GPS feature, at least you allow for competition, and at the same time, protect the network with the fee to maintain or even profit from the extra bandwith. But when you restrict 100% as verizon has done, they in essense are monopolizing the feature and killing the competition through illegal tactics.

    So even though its "their network" I think they either have to kill the GPS feature all together.... or allow fair competition for it to be legal
    Last edited by RicanMedic78; 02-26-09 at 11:36 AM.
    02-26-09 11:32 AM
  6. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    I dont have time to make it nice and pretty as I am between patients at work. But that is my speedy gist of it
    02-26-09 11:43 AM
  7. Lowsol94's Avatar
    So this argument exists on dated hardware. Obliviously its been said everyone doesn't want a Storm but the Storm is capable of just that. Who is to say future hardware will not have this ability?
    02-26-09 11:46 AM
  8. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    is aGPS considered dated hardware to dual mode gps? i have not read that to be the case. we still dont know if future phones will have 1 or the other. if u go to the niagra page floating around here, it lists the gps type to be "aGPS"
    02-26-09 12:18 PM
  9. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    For some reason people confuse rights with wants. Just because you want something doesn't mean you have the right to have it.
    Can we all say

    ENTITLEMENT MENTALITY?

    I am, therefore I deserve.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    02-26-09 12:28 PM
  10. Lowsol94's Avatar
    is aGPS considered dated hardware to dual mode gps? i have not read that to be the case. we still dont know if future phones will have 1 or the other. if u go to the niagra page floating around here, it lists the gps type to be "aGPS"
    Verizon is scheduled to release the greatly anticipated BlackBerry Curve 8330 on Friday, May 7th.

    Dated.
    Last edited by Lowsol94; 02-26-09 at 12:54 PM.
    02-26-09 12:50 PM
  11. eve6er69's Avatar
    I dont have time to make it nice and pretty as I am between patients at work. But that is my speedy gist of it
    no no you did a great job.
    i like my sprint nav but i would prob like a garmin software if the phone was agps capable.
    whenever i drive to rutland VT there is a few spots that i lose reception (in the mountains) but my garmin gps stays strong.
    even my work vz phone and my satelite radio dont get reception, lol
    02-26-09 12:58 PM
  12. vatothe0's Avatar
    Correct... in sessence, monopolizing its GPS functionality to its own provider.

    Here are the arguments:

    Bathwith restriction argument: If the data used is sustainable for VZ Nav, then its sustainable for garmin mobile, or mapquest mobile, or any other GPS functionality. Even though there are variations in data use.... see options below on charging for this

    "Its their network" argument: It is true that these phones do have an assisted feature utilizing the network for GPS functionality. However, the argument I am making is that if verizon tolerates the bandwith for a $9.99 fee (as is with VZ Nav), then they can charge $9.99 for "general GPS" and unlock it for all 3rd party apps. Or charge a specific GPS data fee per kb. That is, if their reasons for blocking GPS is true and not monopolozing in nature. Now, if they want to monopolize on VZ Nav, then they still restrict based on that premise alone then its illegal in my view. Why? Read below

    Legal argument of opinion: If you allow 1 program, you must allow fair competition to reign. Only way to restrict is if you restrict it all claiming that it threatens the integrity of the network. If verizon wants to charge for the GPS feature, at least you allow for competition, and at the same time, protect the network with the fee to maintain or even profit from the extra bandwith. But when you restrict 100% as verizon has done, they in essense are monopolizing the feature and killing the competition through illegal tactics.


    So even though its "their network" I think they either have to kill the GPS feature all together.... or allow fair competition for it to be legal
    You're missing the fact that Verizon knows how much data VZNav will use from their aGPS servers. That bandwidth plus the software is sold for $9.99 per month. They have no way to know how much will be used by an unknown 3rd party app though.

    The practices are not anti-competitive since all they are doing is denying access to their network. You can install any 3rd party GPS program and use it with a GPS puck since it won't require any of Verizon's GPS server bandwidth.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    02-26-09 01:26 PM
  13. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    i like my sprint nav but i would prob like a garmin software if the phone was agps capable.
    Ouch - should we include Sprint in the suit for "blocking" GPS?

    All mobile phones made in the past several years are required to be E911 compliant & this means GPS - most often aGPS. Since I am on the mobile site, I can't see what, if any, phone you have listed in your user panel.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    02-26-09 01:40 PM
  14. r0bn4571c's Avatar
    I don't know if this has been posted already, but this is on the blackberry website...at least for the 8300 series phones, if you take a look at the specs and come to the GPS part it has a little "1" next to it, which means:

    1 Check with service provider for availability, roaming arrangements and service plans. Certain features outlined herein require a minimum version of BlackBerry software.


    na.blackberry.com/eng/devices/blackberrycurve8300/curve_specifications.jsp

    I was reading through here a few days ago and found it while researching my phone, sprint user here so I don't have much of an opinion on the subject.

    -R0b
    02-26-09 01:44 PM
  15. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    I think the providers can restrict accordingly. Its their network! The problem becomes when they chose to use their program "SOLELY" and eliminate competition. Basically if they close GPS capability (with exception of E911 obviously), then there's no problem. But when u allow only 1 app, thats when things change.

    This is my opinion of course, but I think its a sound one...

    and on the contrary, there's no entitlement issues here like some may love to spew out!
    02-26-09 01:59 PM
  16. Lowsol94's Avatar
    So does the capabilities of the Storm and the GPS function meet your needs? If the Curve adopted the same properties would you be happy?
    02-26-09 02:05 PM
  17. Shortysk8ter's Avatar
    You may want to verify your facts, your phone does indeed have GPS on it and it can be turned on, the VZW website does indeed say that. It nowhere on the website says it comes with a turn-by-turn direction application at no charge. Your GSP isnt blocked you just think that GPS means that the device will tell you where to go, for that it is 9.99/month. Verizon has lawyers that has been over this before so sadly i dont think your going to win. Should probably just give it up or get a 3rd party app.
    02-26-09 02:32 PM
  18. ChiefPropellerhead's Avatar
    I wonder IF you reloaded the BB Curve with NON VZW OS if GPS would just work? Just a thought.. I would imagine the default OS load is what disables it to begin with.
    02-26-09 02:35 PM
  19. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    I wonder IF you reloaded the BB Curve with NON VZW OS if GPS would just work? Just a thought.. I would imagine the default OS load is what disables it to begin with.
    Nope - it is a network restriction & not phone or chip based. In fact, all of the available chip restrictions are controllable by you, through your interface.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    02-26-09 02:38 PM
  20. atlas9171's Avatar
    thanks for clarifying it twins

    onstar is an independent company that can renegotiate with whomeever they want to, past, present, future! Its the same way a GM may have goodyear tires on their model lines. It doesn't mean that goodyear is all of a sudden a branch of GM!

    Onstar is a mute point!
    Now that I've finally stopped laughing at your response let me point out that I never said Onstar couldn't negotiate a deal with any other company it doesn't change the fact that Onstars parent company is General Motors. Needless to say your Goodyear analogy was completely absurd.

    Onstar would be a moot point, not mute but I guess you probably knew that already right?
    02-26-09 06:50 PM
  21. FF22's Avatar
    I don't know if this has been posted already, but this is on the blackberry website...at least for the 8300 series phones, if you take a look at the specs and come to the GPS part it has a little "1" next to it, which means:

    1 Check with service provider for availability, roaming arrangements and service plans. Certain features outlined herein require a minimum version of BlackBerry software.


    na.blackberry.com/eng/devices/blackberrycurve8300/curve_specifications.jsp

    I was reading through here a few days ago and found it while researching my phone, sprint user here so I don't have much of an opinion on the subject.

    -R0b
    There are those who think that RIM added that after folks complained about Verizon's policy. So it may be a more recent addition (and may even be more than a year old but still subsequent to the first Verizon 8830's). Also, some say that Verizon stopped advertising the gps after the fact, too.

    I don't know what is true or false - unless someone cached older web pages or ads, it will be hard for plain old us to find out.
    02-26-09 08:48 PM
  22. FF22's Avatar
    You may want to verify your facts, your phone does indeed have GPS on it and it can be turned on, the VZW website does indeed say that. It nowhere on the website says it comes with a turn-by-turn direction application at no charge. Your GSP isnt blocked you just think that GPS means that the device will tell you where to go, for that it is 9.99/month. Verizon has lawyers that has been over this before so sadly i dont think your going to win. Should probably just give it up or get a 3rd party app.
    Multiple issues:

    There is Verizon's Navigator and both pay-for and free competitors in Turn-by-turn

    BUT

    There are also a number of 3rd party apps that are not turn by turn. They merely record your route/path or just location and make that available so you can see your hike or bike ride - Verizon's does not perform that function. There are Geocache applications that allow you to hike to a hidden cache in a sophisticate game. There are geo-tagging apps for photos. There are streaming apps that allow you or others to track your location and path. There is some golf-geo program. All of these need a gps but do not necessary steal business from Verizon.

    That's the issue - no one really knows what Verizon's reason for locking the gps is/are. They have claimed our privacy is at stake in some emails to complainers - that we could be tracked when we don't want. There is the supposed data-capacity of their network. There is the $$ from competition. Choose your lie of the week!
    02-26-09 08:53 PM
  23. JoeyMoose's Avatar
    Ok might be a stupid comment but with my google mags it can locate my location within so many meters is that a form of gps or is that just the closest cell phone tower? i know that my bb is not a tomtom and that would nodoubt cost extra a month
    02-26-09 09:04 PM
  24. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    Ok might be a stupid comment but with my google mags it can locate my location within so many meters is that a form of gps or is that just the closest cell phone tower? i know that my bb is not a tomtom and that would nodoubt cost extra a month
    Cell tower triangulation & not GPS. You can easily tell the difference. If your accuracy tells you 20 meters or less, you're doing GPS. If it tells you 250 meters or more, you're on triangulation. If somewhere in between, you might be on GPS, but with a bad signal. Move to a clear view of the sky & try again.

    In all honesty, your statement about it not being a TomTom rings so true. Even the vaunted VZNavigator & TeleNav apps are pretty cruddy, compared to even the lower priced Garmin or TomTom or (insert your brand here) standalone units.

    I run a puck & software only because it gives me something when I am wandering around Disneyland or wherever. When I am out camping, my truck & RV have factory nav and in the cars I have without nav, I have Garmin Nuvi for portable use.

    The really sad thing is... I honestly don't need them. I can stand in the middle of the desert or in the mountains, be spun around & I can still tell you due north - day or night. What they come in handy for is the YOU HAVE ARRIVED notice. I can now be lazy & not look for addresses. Fuel prices is a good one, even though I won't buy discount gasoline or diesel - if I save 3 & lose 5% fuel economy, have i saved anything? Still, the standalone systems tell me where the closest Chevron station is & how much they're charging & whether or not they have diesel or 93 octane.

    Yes, I am one of those men who refuses to stop & ask for directions - not because I am afraid to or too embarrassed - it is because I don't want to let everyone I passed in the past hour get ahead of me!
    02-26-09 11:41 PM
  25. jrd231psu's Avatar
    Cell tower triangulation & not GPS. You can easily tell the difference. If your accuracy tells you 20 meters or less, you're doing GPS. If it tells you 250 meters or more, you're on triangulation. If somewhere in between, you might be on GPS, but with a bad signal. Move to a clear view of the sky & try again.

    In all honesty, your statement about it not being a TomTom rings so true. Even the vaunted VZNavigator & TeleNav apps are pretty cruddy, compared to even the lower priced Garmin or TomTom or (insert your brand here) standalone units.

    I run a puck & software only because it gives me something when I am wandering around Disneyland or wherever. When I am out camping, my truck & RV have factory nav and in the cars I have without nav, I have Garmin Nuvi for portable use.

    The really sad thing is... I honestly don't need them. I can stand in the middle of the desert or in the mountains, be spun around & I can still tell you due north - day or night. What they come in handy for is the YOU HAVE ARRIVED notice. I can now be lazy & not look for addresses. Fuel prices is a good one, even though I won't buy discount gasoline or diesel - if I save 3 & lose 5% fuel economy, have i saved anything? Still, the standalone systems tell me where the closest Chevron station is & how much they're charging & whether or not they have diesel or 93 octane.

    Yes, I am one of those men who refuses to stop & ask for directions - not because I am afraid to or too embarrassed - it is because I don't want to let everyone I passed in the past hour get ahead of me!
    Having a cell phone that doubles as a GPS might be a big deal for some people, but personally I would never use it as a GPS unit in my car. I have a base level TomTom that navigates me to wherever I want to go. It has preloaded places of interest, can tell me where gas stations are as Twins has mentioned, and works so much better than my Blackberry ever could that it was well worth the small one time fee of $150 I paid for it. I wouldn't trade my TomTom for any phone GPS, and if you want a GPS, a stand-alone unit is really the way you should go.
    02-27-09 08:44 AM
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