04-18-09 03:25 PM
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  1. lastraid's Avatar
    it does make sense, however the issue then becomes, does GPS/data traffic alter their network speeds as such that only customers with blackberry curves/pearls/WE models should be limited to a locked down feature that opens up a world of posibilities and benefits to the consumer? despite verizon not making a direct profit off those features...

    Then lets not forget that other carriers do not follow the same practice...

    Then the skeptical side comes into play here ... monopolizing VZ Nav to eliminate the competition, Trying to market storm with capability beyond that of older BBs... etc
    Older BB's is the chip issue, the other concerns you note open a can of worms and VZW business decisions. Keep in mind when say traffic on the towers this means not only BB's, but also aircards, other data devices (PDA's), and regular phone that have data capabilites. all inclusive can slow down traffic as they all use towers.
    02-21-09 11:07 AM
  2. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    Older BB's is the chip issue, the other concerns you note open a can of worms and VZW business decisions. Keep in mind when say traffic on the towers this means not only BB's, but also aircards, other data devices (PDA's), and regular phone that have data capabilites. all inclusive can slow down traffic as they all use towers.
    but again, how much of a difference does an unlocked aGPS really make on the network? Especially when its really only 2 or 3 models that r affected... def not enough to cause this much havic with customers angry about locked capabilities
    Last edited by RicanMedic78; 02-21-09 at 01:10 PM.
    02-21-09 11:46 AM
  3. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    Then the skeptical side comes into play here ... monopolizing VZ Nav to eliminate the competition, Trying to market storm with capability beyond that of older BBs... etc
    Hold on a sec...

    While I can see the train of thought surrounding eliminating competition, the part of marketing the Storm with capabilities beyond older BBs threw me for a loop.

    Isn't that all part of product & technology improvement?

    Razr an improvement over StarTac.

    Quad Core processor an improvement over a 386 chip.

    2009 Corvette an improvement over a 1976 Corvette.

    Of course they are marketing the Storm with capabilities beyond older BBs - quite simply because it HAS capabilities beyond older BBs. But that is thanks to RIM (the manufacturer) and not because anything VZW (the network) has done to throw wrenches in the works.

    AT&T used to specify everything in the phones that could be used on their network. They could do so for two reasons. One, you couldn't connect an outside-sourced phone to the Bell System. Two, AT&T owned Western Electric - the manufacturer of Bell System phones. As such, for many years, we saw changes in shapes, colors and only two functional options - rotary or TouchTone*. Sure we saw minor improvements over the years - the move to modular wiring over hardwire or four-prong, & latex insulation instead of cloth, but the phones stayed pretty much the same - heavy & built like tanks that would outlive you.

    Now, everything is marketed as being better than the last, with more capability. style & claimed value.

    Interestingly, even with all of the competitive jabs & barbs we see thrown out in press statements, advertising and more, why is it you never hear AT&T mention any supposed VZW locking of chips? Why does T-Mobile never toss out an ad on television saying "Get T-Mobile, where your GPS chip functions fully"???

    The only place you hear about VZW locking chips is on the Internet conspiracy threads, where people are free to voice their claims of collusion and conspiracy without having to show any reason, logic, intelligence or proof of their claims.

    I have a better argument that the NBA is rigged - if you'd like to hear about that one... oops, wrong thread.

    Try going to one of those 'consumer watchdog' types - the ones that work for the local television stations or newspapers. See how seriously they take you. Call the BBB - the Better Business Bureau will send you a nice response about how there is no issue. Check with Consumers Union, the nation's biggest consumer watchdog with their Consumer's Reports publication taking no advertising dollars or corporate money - uh oh, I've heard they also rate VZW as best, Call the Attorney General of your state and tell them you want to file a complaint for whatever you choose - fraud, anti-competitive practices, fraudulent advertising - hey, if that doesn't work, file with DOJ or the US Attorney General - after awhile, you'll realize this consipracy issue has no legs outside of the anonymous Internet conspiracy threads.
    02-21-09 12:24 PM
  4. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    Hold on a sec...

    While I can see the train of thought surrounding eliminating competition, the part of marketing the Storm with capabilities beyond older BBs threw me for a loop.

    Isn't that all part of product & technology improvement?

    Razr an improvement over StarTac.

    Quad Core processor an improvement over a 386 chip.

    2009 Corvette an improvement over a 1976 Corvette.

    first, nothing is factual. I'm sure u of all ppl know that and r not afraid to tell me harshly as well. However, I'm just giving u evidence based analysys from my outside standpoint. Heres what I know. The "A" GPS function "CAN" offer the exact capabilities as the dual mode GPS can. The major difference as I have read is that the aGPS is tied to the network as well verses the standalone. But regardless of chip differences, the capability is there equally with both chips. And we also have evidence of this in that other carriers unlock it for 3rd party apps. As such, the storm is being marketed with capabilities that are just about matched by our curves, with the exception of rev A. But curves were always capable of HTML and GPS. So while I've already heard the argument that verizon was holding out 4.5 till at least a good month or so after the storm to allow users to see exclusive HTML content on the storm only, I think the same can be held true about the aGPS chip. WHen 3rd party apps are playing well on a storm and u have device capability far beyond that of the curve, 8830, or pearl, u set a presidence of trying to say, this new device can do what the older models can't. So this is not the same as comparing a rzr with a star tac, or.... an 09 corvette with a 76 corvette
    Last edited by RicanMedic78; 02-21-09 at 01:33 PM.
    02-21-09 01:18 PM
  5. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    Of course they are marketing the Storm with capabilities beyond older BBs - quite simply because it HAS capabilities beyond older BBs. But that is thanks to RIM (the manufacturer) and not because anything VZW (the network) has done to throw wrenches in the works.
    I agree to an extent in that its RIMs design. Even though I believe because it was an exclusive phone, verizon was there at every step, I still agree with the basic premise that it was RIMs piece. As far as the wrench being thrown, that was verizon locking the aGPS chip, possibly to make the storm seem far more superior than what it really was. That and the VZ nav monopoly as well...

    Can they do this.... yup! But we don't have to like it and speak up! Facebook users spoke up and facebook backtracked on their TOS agreements this week. This is far worse in that it ACTUALLY involves our pockets here
    Last edited by RicanMedic78; 02-21-09 at 01:36 PM.
    02-21-09 01:31 PM
  6. supermike437433's Avatar
    I didn't read this whole thread. Did you actually file? If so, what court? Do you have a copy of the lawsuit online?
    Go to the First Page of this post.

    http://forums.crackberry.com/attachm...bcomplaint.pdf
    02-21-09 05:56 PM
  7. Xeroid's Avatar
    Verizon has always limited their phones' capabilities and has always gotten away with it. They had MP3 Capability turned off on my old Motorola 720, I had to hack my HTC Touch to enable the GPS for other programs (TomTom) to use it, etc. They always get away with it because of "the network". No other provider in the US has as good and complete coverage in the country. If you don't like their gouging, you have to put up with dead spots from another carrier. They spent the money on all the towers, and are going to make sure they make money from them.

    I came here, tonight, in hopes that someone had found a way to enable the GPS chip for use by outside programs, but it appears it hasn't been done. They did it on my HTC by loading in Alltell software, but since Verizon has bought them, I imagine that avenue will be blocked, shortly.
    02-22-09 01:47 AM
  8. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    Verizon has always limited their phones' capabilities and has always gotten away with it. They had MP3 Capability turned off on my old Motorola 720, I had to hack my HTC Touch to enable the GPS for other programs (TomTom) to use it, etc. They always get away with it because of "the network". No other provider in the US has as good and complete coverage in the country. If you don't like their gouging, you have to put up with dead spots from another carrier. They spent the money on all the towers, and are going to make sure they make money from them.

    I came here, tonight, in hopes that someone had found a way to enable the GPS chip for use by outside programs, but it appears it hasn't been done. They did it on my HTC by loading in Alltell software, but since Verizon has bought them, I imagine that avenue will be blocked, shortly.
    at last, someone remembers when they blocked MP3 capability! I had the T720 as well. the LG VX 8300 had bluetooth file transfer capability. Verizon blocked it! Verizon also blocked MP3s as ringtones and only allowed a special format that u can only get when u purchase and download their versions on v-cast. This all changed and there are new restrictions in force here, but while other carriers allow u to do more, verizon has always been the henchmen restricting everything under the sun for the sake of a few more nickles
    Last edited by RicanMedic78; 02-22-09 at 02:40 AM.
    02-22-09 02:37 AM
  9. spark09223's Avatar
    I have read all the replies, but I still don't understand the grounds for a lawsuit. Nowhere on the VZW website do they say the Blackberries are GPS capable. They just list them as "VZ Navigator" capable.

    When you buy a phone from Verizon, you are buying it as configured by VZW. Yes, RIM might have put the GPS chip in it. But by buying the phone from Verizon, you're agreeing that you are going to use the phone with the GPS crippled or only partially enabled. If you thought it was fully enabled from RIM commercials or something, that's your fault for being misinformed. So I don't see any problem with VZW disabling the GPS.

    Also, for those who say why are we arguing if it's in our benefit? Because-to some, at least-it just doesn't seem right. I would love to use all the GPS apps on my 8130, but I agreed to buy it with the GPS crippled. So if I have to pay extra to use that service, I wouldn't complain.
    02-22-09 04:46 AM
  10. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    I have read all the replies, but I still don't understand the grounds for a lawsuit. Nowhere on the VZW website do they say the Blackberries are GPS capable. They just list them as "VZ Navigator" capable.

    When you buy a phone from Verizon, you are buying it as configured by VZW. Yes, RIM might have put the GPS chip in it. But by buying the phone from Verizon, you're agreeing that you are going to use the phone with the GPS crippled or only partially enabled. If you thought it was fully enabled from RIM commercials or something, that's your fault for being misinformed. So I don't see any problem with VZW disabling the GPS.

    Also, for those who say why are we arguing if it's in our benefit? Because-to some, at least-it just doesn't seem right. I would love to use all the GPS apps on my 8130, but I agreed to buy it with the GPS crippled. So if I have to pay extra to use that service, I wouldn't complain.

    a lot of ppl wouldn't mind paying the $9.99 for a truly unlocked GPS rather than just for a vz navigator!
    02-22-09 07:31 AM
  11. FF22's Avatar
    Spark09223:

    What about the fact that the Verizon Navigator does not work in Europe (I have read that but I'm not there to check) but I purchased an 8830WE, that's a WORLD edition. Shouldn't the WORLD edition work with the gps in Europe?

    Also from my readings, at one time, Verizon's ads apparently were not as clear cut about the gps limitations. So, some older users might have been misled.

    I've got a puck so in many ways, I'm not as limited. But the puck is a separate item to carry around, to attempt to sync (sometimes it needs some tweaking) and a separate unit to keep charged. It would be nice to just have the gps but I'm not holding my breath.
    02-22-09 11:13 AM
  12. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    the whole purpose of this type of technology is to simplify ones life. Having a separate GPS puck doesnt simplify ones life. It adds complications where there should be done...

    let verizon restrict the camera use to a fee and tell me I have to carry around my point and shoot... grrrrrr
    02-22-09 12:02 PM
  13. lastraid's Avatar
    Spark09223:

    What about the fact that the Verizon Navigator does not work in Europe (I have read that but I'm not there to check) but I purchased an 8830WE, that's a WORLD edition. Shouldn't the WORLD edition work with the gps in Europe?

    Also from my readings, at one time, Verizon's ads apparently were not as clear cut about the gps limitations. So, some older users might have been misled.

    I've got a puck so in many ways, I'm not as limited. But the puck is a separate item to carry around, to attempt to sync (sometimes it needs some tweaking) and a separate unit to keep charged. It would be nice to just have the gps but I'm not holding my breath.
    VZNAV requires the VZW network to work. Also GPS in 8830 will not work overseas. The main reason for this is OS on the being 4.2, not sure if VZW will upgrade this device or not. Storm will will work with GPS overseas. Also when the BOLD comes out I am sure this will as well, if VZW gets the duel mode version
    02-22-09 12:07 PM
  14. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    VZNAV requires the VZW network to work. Also GPS in 8830 will not work overseas. The main reason for this is OS on the being 4.2, not sure if VZW will upgrade this device or not. Storm will will work with GPS overseas. Also when the BOLD comes out I am sure this will as well, if VZW gets the duel mode version
    So when your overseas and ur using data on a global network, it will not work with the aGPS? Now... QUESTION... is that because of chip limitations or is that because verizon blocked it only to work with its network??? Because in my mind, data is data! And I don't see why the aGPS has to be married solely to verizons network verses any network, especially since its a global phone...

    I do admit, I know very little about global capabilities... but as a skeptical consumer, I will always learn, and then question EVERYTHING!!!
    02-22-09 12:30 PM
  15. lastraid's Avatar
    So when your overseas and ur using data on a global network, it will not work with the aGPS? Now... QUESTION... is that because of chip limitations or is that because verizon blocked it only to work with its network??? Because in my mind, data is data! And I don't see why the aGPS has to be married solely to verizons network verses any network, especially since its a global phone...

    I do admit, I know very little about global capabilities... but as a skeptical consumer, I will always learn, and then question EVERYTHING!!!
    look at what what I said. In this case it is do the OS on an 8830. The same reason when 4.5 for the pearl and curve was it relased it opened GPS for BB maps, BBmaps will work overseas. Just not with the 8830, until or if VZW releases an update for it. In my humble opinion, this may not happen as it is older device and the storm has been released. All we can do wait to see if this happens.
    02-22-09 12:54 PM
  16. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    see, Im a bit confused now. When the OS update for the curve came out (4.5.0.77), it had programing that unlocked the GPS for BB Maps..... verses lets say... 4.3 So even though it was RIMs OS software, it must of had verizon requirements attached no? And if an OS can solely unlock the GPS, then wouldnt that mean that if we use, lets say the sprint OS on a curve phone, as many ar doing with .131, that the GPS will function the same way as it does on sprint??? Especially since its the same chipset. Or does verizons blockage of the data in the GPS have more to do with OTA restrictions within its data network?
    Last edited by RicanMedic78; 02-22-09 at 02:07 PM.
    02-22-09 02:04 PM
  17. lastraid's Avatar
    see, Im a bit confused now. When the OS update for the curve came out (4.5.0.77), it had programing that unlocked the GPS for BB Maps..... verses lets say... 4.3 So even though it was RIMs OS software, it must of had verizon requirements attached no? And if an OS can solely unlock the GPS, then wouldnt that mean that if we use, lets say the sprint OS on a curve phone, as many ar doing with .131, that the GPS will function the same way as it does on sprint??? Especially since its the same chipset. Or does verizons blockage of the data in the GPS have more to do with OTA restrictions within its data network?
    Yes a lot has to with carrier requirements. Sprints software will not work with what you are thinking. I am sure there is a lot with how serivce books are written for carriers as well, and no Sprints service book will not help either. I know when I upgraded to .77 I have had to delete an old service book from my restore before the new would work.
    02-22-09 02:15 PM
  18. fujifoot's Avatar
    so your complaining about 9.99 a month for your gps, yes you were probably told up front that you have to pay for it,

    just cause ford makes a xm capable car do you think you should get xm for free too?

    and for the tomtom argument, yeah go spen 250 on the tomtom and then spend $145 to get up dated maps, try searching through your tomtom for cheapest gas oor buying movie tickets through it on the go...better yet carry it through the city and have it give you walking directions...
    02-23-09 12:14 AM
  19. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    u use xm (an independant service) as an example??? LMAO!!! Why don't u use the free FM/AM as an example and then ford crippling it and charging a fee????? Since thats the true comparison!

    Its funny how ppl try to invent a point just to make themselves look right...
    Last edited by RicanMedic78; 02-23-09 at 01:45 PM.
    02-23-09 12:38 AM
  20. anon(368121)'s Avatar
    u use xm (an independant service) as an example??? LMAO!!! Why don't u use the free FM/AM as an example and then ford crippling it and charging a fee????? Since thats the true comparison!

    Its funny how ppl try to invent a point just to make themselves look right...
    If we're talking about aGPS here (such as what's used in the Curve), then XM actually is a better example than free FM/AM. aGPS requires carrier bandwidth and infrastructure support, meaning that offering it costs VZW money.

    The autonomous GPS support provided by, say, the Storm doesn't need carrier bandwidth or infrastructure support, and the data services that GPS applications require for downloading map data are paid for through your subscription to a data plan.

    As TwinsX2Dad has pointed out in other threads, the cost of a PDE providing ephemeris data to GPS-enabled phones can be significant, and Verizon is entirely within its rights to restrict its access to paying users (i.e. subscribers to VZ Navigator).
    02-23-09 02:36 PM
  21. FF22's Avatar
    look at what what I said. In this case it is do the OS on an 8830. The same reason when 4.5 for the pearl and curve was it relased it opened GPS for BB maps, BBmaps will work overseas. Just not with the 8830, until or if VZW releases an update for it. In my humble opinion, this may not happen as it is older device and the storm has been released. All we can do wait to see if this happens.
    If that is the case, the 4.5 OS is OFFICIALLY available from Bell and it can be installed on the Verizon 8830. Apparently, there is even another version available from another carrier, too.

    So, why would Verizon not officially provide this OS to its users? Yup, I know, they are putting it through testing and testing. Maybe they will release it.

    I still think that what has most folks angry is not the lockdown so much as even if they open it for Verizon Navigator, that still lacks maybe gps abilities that 3rd party applications are now providing. Track logs in gpx and google earth format, geocaching abilities, running routes. Geotagging photos.

    It has been mentioned here in the past and recently - for the $10.00 fee ($15???) open the gps to uses besides just Navigator and BBMaps. Given folks free-rein to use whatever app they want so the limitations are overcome.

    What also irks folks are the excuses vary from time to time. Protecting our privacy, data overload, can't be done..... etc. Now they do allow it on the OS 4.5 but won't upgrade devices such as the 8830. Come on. In the days before the Internet, they could provide any lame excuse, and one to each different user but we all share info and get tired of the BS!!!

    And I will admit, I have no idea what kind of gps or agps the 8830 has and so have no idea of its inherent limitations but I think that is also become part of the deceptive ploy - keeping people guessing about what is really embedded in these various models.

    Sorry, I'm in a mood and this is a good a place as any to rant or rave a little bit!!!!
    02-23-09 03:44 PM
  22. FF22's Avatar
    so your complaining about 9.99 a month for your gps, yes you were probably told up front that you have to pay for it,

    just cause ford makes a xm capable car do you think you should get xm for free too?

    and for the tomtom argument, yeah go spen 250 on the tomtom and then spend $145 to get up dated maps, try searching through your tomtom for cheapest gas oor buying movie tickets through it on the go...better yet carry it through the city and have it give you walking directions...
    My other thread said it - $10.00 a month only liberates Verizon Nav. That still leaves out lots of other gps functions which are now availabe - gps track logging, geocaching, geotagging photos, etc. Maybe Verizon should just open it up for a pre-set cost and allow the user to define their needs.
    02-23-09 03:55 PM
  23. klncr's Avatar
    I imagine a Corporate Law attorney would be best.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    you can get gps free for 30 days.
    02-23-09 07:02 PM
  24. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    If that is the case, the 4.5 OS is OFFICIALLY available from Bell and it can be installed on the Verizon 8830. Apparently, there is even another version available from another carrier, too.
    As noted, none from VZW. I don't believe from Sprint or AT&T either, but I may be mistaken.

    So, why would Verizon not officially provide this OS to its users? Yup, I know, they are putting it through testing and testing. Maybe they will release it.
    For older devices, the carrier has to commission an OS update from RIM, optimized for the features the carrier wants. Often, there is little difference in various flavors of an OS other than (often) a tweak to better run something like SprintTV or VZNavigator -or- carrier customization (like a boot screen) -or- (maybe) memory capacity. On a device nearing its EOL (end of life), like the 8800 series, it is possible VZW could find a good business case to make for the expenditure.


    I still think that what has most folks angry is not the lockdown so much as even if they open it for Verizon Navigator, that still lacks maybe gps abilities that 3rd party applications are now providing. Track logs in gpx and google earth format, geocaching abilities, running routes. Geotagging photos.
    Not true. Get VZNav & only VZNav is opened up. Don't believe everything you read on phone sites. I tried VZNav with 4.5 on my single-mode aGPS Curve & nothing else worked other than through triangulation without a puck.

    Getting VZNav doesn't actually open up anything - it is simply a subscription & software download.


    It has been mentioned here in the past and recently - for the $10.00 fee ($15???) open the gps to uses besides just Navigator and BBMaps. Given folks free-rein to use whatever app they want so the limitations are overcome.
    it would have to be through a per MB basis billing. Would you be willing to fork out $1.99/MB? Now would you still be willing to pay this amount for say 5-10MB per day? Sure, each locate request might take anywhere from "only" 0.2MB-2.5MB - and turn by turn presents even more data hunger - but unless you remember to shut down the app (and its grab on the chip) imagine the customer dissatisfaction among the no personal responsibility types. Then there are the folks who were just exploring their device & rack up charges - large ones even. Even if VZW fixed that bill, what might keep it from happening again, not to mention the fact many would always want to blame the carrier for "trying to rip me off."

    The amount of data required varies widely from app to app.

    What also irks folks are the excuses vary from time to time. Protecting our privacy, data overload, can't be done..... etc. Now they do allow it on the OS 4.5 but won't upgrade devices such as the 8830. Come on. In the days before the Internet, they could provide any lame excuse, and one to each different user but we all share info and get tired of the BS!!!
    See the beginning of this reply.

    And I will admit, I have no idea what kind of gps or agps the 8830 has and so have no idea of its inherent limitations but I think that is also become part of the deceptive ploy - keeping people guessing about what is really embedded in these various models.
    Does it really matter what is in it as long as it works as promised and as agreed upon? I might see a complaint if you paid full boat for your BlackBerry, but even when you pay "full price" through a carrier, it really isn't. You're still getting a discount in the form of basic subsidies.

    Taking it a step further here for comparison purposes - you get into a traffic accident in your late model vehicle. Did you know that all late model cars & trucks come with a form of "black-box" built in that records info which can be subpoenaed in a court of law? When this info is requested in court, it is often used to hang you. While not as sophisticated or as detailed as flight recorders, these things can tell a judge & jury info such as your traveled speeds in the previous 60-300 seconds, as well as braking & throttle inputs. Other information is also available, but too detailed for this space.

    Now, how does this pertain to your last thought? Well, did GM, Ford, Toyota or BMW tell you this capability was included when you bought the car? Probably not, but it is in there.

    Both GPS on your phone & data from your car are huge privacy issues.

    Considering it is probably too difficult for a carrier to determine if the data is for GPS or simply a MapQuest query, the two cannot be split.

    VZW can control VZNav data & offer it without database access charges. They simply made a business decision to not absorb the costs or cause customer service nightmares to make a very small sliver of their customer base happy at the expense of the vast majority of their customers.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Last edited by TwinsX2Dad; 02-23-09 at 07:46 PM.
    02-23-09 07:02 PM
  25. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    data for "assistance" to GPS may vary from app to app but no one can tell me that so much data can be used that it threatened to cripple their network! Tethering is one thing.... but assist data for the sole purpose of making a GPS function??? COME ON!

    BB maps now uses the GPS. Wonder if verizon is bleeding from that move and losing tons of data!

    Its trivial and its rediculous!
    Last edited by RicanMedic78; 02-23-09 at 08:45 PM.
    02-23-09 08:36 PM
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