10-01-09 10:42 PM
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  1. Wireless Vet's Avatar
    I agree its a whole lot of phone for some people. Its hard to go from lg 5200 and so on to a phone like the storm. Its corolla to gallardo... A big jump. I'm still on my first tour I got several days after release. Sure the battery door is loose but I don't see it as a reason for a replacement as it spends most its time in a case. Screen ripples a little sure but I'm not expecting perfection like everyone else.
    My Storm freezes from time to time, just like any other device does. Certainly no reason to have it replaced five or more times like some.
    09-30-09 09:59 AM
  2. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    We are now evaluated on our return rates, which is a joke.
    Yes, it is a joke - but it is possibly the only measurable way they can determine if someone is doing a proper job of consulting with the customer before they sell something.

    It is all too easy to sit back & sell people what they ask for, without finding out their needs, expectations & motives for the purchase. Still, despite your best efforts, you will get people who are determined to get that one particular phone and that person is more likely to be unhappy with the device later.

    Was at the local Costco kiosk - playing with a new T-Mobile dumbphone. Lady next to me was talking to the rep about Tour. He was trying his best - she said she didn't want Internet capabilities and she didn't want to pay the extra $30 per month. All she wanted was phone & texting. Rep tried to steer her to the Alias 2 or the enV3. She would have no part of it - she wanted that Tour & was sure she could get a "Verizon rep" to remove the data plan. She accused the rep of telling her he had to sell the data plan to her to boost commission. I chimed in that carriers required data on BlackBerrys - was there wearing a VZW ballcap, too. She wouldn't listen to me, either & insisted on the BlackBerry.

    I walked away before the process was completed, but am sure she got her Tour. Then after she got it home, played with it, called VZW & was told data had to stay, I would bet the phone was returned.

    No matter what, she knew what she wanted & the kiosk rep didn't. That attitude of "I can buy what I want & pay the amount I want for service" is really arrogant.

    I am sure some reps wouldve just sold her the Tour & not tried harder.

    I have a lot of family members mention to me, "I am going to get a BlackBerry (or smartphone)." Since these are people related to me, I tend to know them a bit better than reps. Depending on who they are, my first response is usually "WHY?" The reasons run all over the map, but are generally not along the lines of "I want email and Slacker on my phone." After discussion, I've turned them away from BlackBerry into an enV or away from an HTC Diamond to an iPhone or from an iPhone to a full smartphone or from a smartphone to a BlackBerry. Just this past weekend, I talked my sister out of a TP2. But most of these people would've walked into a store & many would have gotten what they originally went in for, then would've been unhappy later.

    So measuring return rates is a good thing, as long as they are on a Bell curve, by device & region. There may be one device that sees a 30% return rate - yours for that model is 25%, so you're going above & beyond, even though the return on another model is only 5%. If they set a nationwide return rate average per employee, it might not be a good thing. Unfortunately, I hear VZW may have hit somewhere in the middle, only allowing slight variations by region & not by device.

    Raise your return rate performance - sell only flip phones & enV devices.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    09-30-09 10:07 AM
  3. i7guy's Avatar
    It is arrogance. RIM thinks they can do no wrong. As you mentioned, the same attitude befell Apple, but then again, it bit Microsoft a little, too. And look what arrogance did to Netscape.

    ...snip...

    wonderful - you don't need my approval, anyway. But for the vast majority of cell-phone users, BlackBerry is not where it is at.
    Neither is iphone. Need to look at the requirements of the user. So many people get a phone just because. Uneducated customers are a retailers worst nightmare.
    09-30-09 10:34 AM
  4. blue_and_bold's Avatar
    My Storm freezes from time to time, just like any other device does. Certainly no reason to have it replaced five or more times like some.
    Its as simple as that. I could call and b*tch that I want a green dot or just deal with it... Some ppl just need to put their big boy pants on.
    09-30-09 10:36 AM
  5. MofoMagic's Avatar
    Yes, it is a joke - but it is possibly the only measurable way they can determine if someone is doing a proper job of consulting with the customer before they sell something.

    It is all too easy to sit back & sell people what they ask for, without finding out their needs, expectations & motives for the purchase. Still, despite your best efforts, you will get people who are determined to get that one particular phone and that person is more likely to be unhappy with the device later.

    Was at the local Costco kiosk - playing with a new T-Mobile dumbphone. Lady next to me was talking to the rep about Tour. He was trying his best - she said she didn't want Internet capabilities and she didn't want to pay the extra $30 per month. All she wanted was phone & texting. Rep tried to steer her to the Alias 2 or the enV3. She would have no part of it - she wanted that Tour & was sure she could get a "Verizon rep" to remove the data plan. She accused the rep of telling her he had to sell the data plan to her to boost commission. I chimed in that carriers required data on BlackBerrys - was there wearing a VZW ballcap, too. She wouldn't listen to me, either & insisted on the BlackBerry.

    I walked away before the process was completed, but am sure she got her Tour. Then after she got it home, played with it, called VZW & was told data had to stay, I would bet the phone was returned.

    No matter what, she knew what she wanted & the kiosk rep didn't. That attitude of "I can buy what I want & pay the amount I want for service" is really arrogant.

    I am sure some reps wouldve just sold her the Tour & not tried harder.

    I have a lot of family members mention to me, "I am going to get a BlackBerry (or smartphone)." Since these are people related to me, I tend to know them a bit better than reps. Depending on who they are, my first response is usually "WHY?" The reasons run all over the map, but are generally not along the lines of "I want email and Slacker on my phone." After discussion, I've turned them away from BlackBerry into an enV or away from an HTC Diamond to an iPhone or from an iPhone to a full smartphone or from a smartphone to a BlackBerry. Just this past weekend, I talked my sister out of a TP2. But most of these people would've walked into a store & many would have gotten what they originally went in for, then would've been unhappy later.

    So measuring return rates is a good thing, as long as they are on a Bell curve, by device & region. There may be one device that sees a 30% return rate - yours for that model is 25%, so you're going above & beyond, even though the return on another model is only 5%. If they set a nationwide return rate average per employee, it might not be a good thing. Unfortunately, I hear VZW may have hit somewhere in the middle, only allowing slight variations by region & not by device.

    Raise your return rate performance - sell only flip phones & enV devices.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Ahhh, twins, you make it sound so easy. lol.

    However, if a phone is dfective it counts against the return rate too.

    The problem comes in the future when the "hot new must-have" device comes out, and the customer swears they are getting the world or the iphone:windows edition, or the storm: the new iphone.

    You hit the nail on the head, it comes down to people not understanding what they want. I had a lady tell me she wanted the iphone because apple was on the side of good, while windows represents the dark side..

    A young man who all he could tell me was that he liked how his friends could watch ufc fight on youtube, and thats why iphone is better than any other phone out there.

    BB either neds to find a way to evolve, or find something else to do really well.Im more excited about the new multimedia devices coming out than i am about the storm 2. I am upset because I was prepping to buy a tp2 on my upgrade date, and now you cant find them anywhere.

    At every meeting, and sitdown I go to, bb's are always the focus, and the comparisons to the iphone are mentioned, but no one talks about the updates to wm, that honestly will make them stand apart, and make them comparable to the iphone.

    Who knows why this is. but change must come soon.
    09-30-09 10:41 AM
  6. jahoobob's Avatar

    Refurb and new are different things. Selling refurbs doesn't affect new.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    While a refurb sale may be to someone who wasn't going to buy in the first place, it could be to someone who was contemplating new but went for the lower price.
    09-30-09 04:15 PM
  7. Wireless Vet's Avatar
    Yes, it is a joke - but it is possibly the only measurable way they can determine if someone is doing a proper job of consulting with the customer before they sell something.
    You can "consult" until you are blue in the face, and in the end, if you are selling to an adult, there comes a point where you have to let them go with what they chose.
    09-30-09 04:50 PM
  8. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    You can "consult" until you are blue in the face, and in the end, if you are selling to an adult, there comes a point where you have to let them go with what they chose.
    Correct - but effort will show up in average performance.

    Two different types of sales people. When presented with a customer who says something like, "I think I want an Acme BoodaFlippa," some sales folks will ask them questions, while others will take them straight to the shiny new BoodaFlippa display & talk about how great they are.

    Which person will have the better return rate, overall?

    Remember that I was talking in generalities & not pointing fingers at those I don't know.

    Pointing fingers is never a good thing. That's what the Dogs in my head told me.

    While a refurb sale may be to someone who wasn't going to buy in the first place, it could be to someone who was contemplating new but went for the lower price.
    True, true - but all the carriers are doing it now. They have to do something to deal with the returned devices & cater to cheapskates.

    Some ppl just need to put their big boy pants on.
    I have a 38 inch inseam. Is that big enough?

    Ahhh, twins, you make it sound so easy. lol..
    I try to - if it isn't easy, it is difficult. I don't like difficult.

    However, if a phone is dfective it counts against the return rate too..
    Oh, how I know - this is why I mentioned there should be a curve with weighting based on models. I feel for the poor guy who only sold Storms late last year.

    You hit the nail on the head, it comes down to people not understanding what they want. I had a lady tell me she wanted the iphone because apple was on the side of good, while windows represents the dark side...
    I love that thought process - is there anything more closed, more proprietary, than Apple?

    Usually, the Apple fans line up with the Firefox & other assorted open-source folks against Microsoft. As if anything Apple does is open-source.


    BB either neds to find a way to evolve, or find something else to do really well.Im more excited about the new multimedia devices coming out than i am about the storm 2. I am upset because I was prepping to buy a tp2 on my upgrade date, and now you cant find them anywhere..
    They do need to evolve - however, from my understanding, that may not be easy without fouling up existing users.

    As for the TP2 availability, I hear only X amount of them were to be made with WM6.1 & the rest would be with WM6.5. They sold more than was expected, so the supply has dried up. October 6th will see the new & improved TP2, along with many other phones on many carriers. Patience, my friend - next week will be here before we know it.

    Of course, they may miraculously find some more with WM6.1 - but I doubt it.

    At every meeting, and sitdown I go to, bb's are always the focus, and the comparisons to the iphone are mentioned, but no one talks about the updates to wm, that honestly will make them stand apart, and make them comparable to the iphone..
    It is because iPhone is the 800 pound gorilla sitting in the corner, ready to sling its droppings at you.

    But I see an evolving market. Smartphones are a new phenomenon - one that the consumers don't yet understand. The early adoption of BlackBerry was a response to iPhone, either by those who don't like Apple or won't go to AT&T. There are too many fallacies out there about different operating systems & too many poorly based criticisms. Too many initial purchases are based on what their friends have, what they've read in the newspapers or what their carrier is pushing. VZW pushes BlackBerrys heavily, so a lot of people grab one. Or they think they can't pass up that BOGO deal.

    But people are seeing reality. Many of those who cut their teeth on the BlackBerry model, or even the iPhone one, are starting to demand more. RIM can't provide much more, without abandoning much of their current model. Much the same can be said about iPhone.

    When folks decide they want widgets, a more PC-like experience & a multitasking UI, they start looking to other platforms. IPhone doesn't multitask - but has some novel workarounds. BlackBerry does some multitasking, but the UI will only allow you to see one thing at a time.

    Who knows why this is. but change must come soon.
    WM, Android & Linux will be the next big things, bringing change to all of us. Personally, I like WM & Linux. Android, I am on the fence with - not because of my dislike for Google, but because of Google's track record. How many Google projects languish in Beta status for too long? It is like they are over-reaching on everything they do.

    Getting some of these new phones out will help. As people see what their friends have & what they can do, the desirability of the other platforms will take off.

    Change is coming - the iPhone & BlackBerry crowd just don't want to admit it.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    09-30-09 05:55 PM
  9. forkup's Avatar
    I'll definately be taking a hard look at the linux distros as they evolve. Open source is good for all

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    09-30-09 06:18 PM
  10. i7guy's Avatar

    ...snip...
    But I see an evolving market. Smartphones are a new phenomenon - one that the consumers don't yet understand. The early adoption of BlackBerry was a response to iPhone, either by those who don't like Apple or won't go to AT&T. There are too many fallacies out there about different operating systems & too many poorly based criticisms. Too many initial purchases are based on what their friends have, what they've read in the newspapers or what their carrier is pushing. VZW pushes BlackBerrys heavily, so a lot of people grab one. Or they think they can't pass up that BOGO deal.

    But people are seeing reality. Many of those who cut their teeth on the BlackBerry model, or even the iPhone one, are starting to demand more. RIM can't provide much more, without abandoning much of their current model. Much the same can be said about iPhone.

    When folks decide they want widgets, a more PC-like experience & a multitasking UI, they start looking to other platforms.

    Change is coming - the iPhone & BlackBerry crowd just don't want to admit it.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    I love change. I can't wait for the next generation of Blackberry hardware and OSes. You want multi-tasking and much more memory on these phones. Fine. You'll be carrying around portable generators and the without the generators the battery half-life will be measured in minutes.

    There is this mythical strawman called everybody who is demanding more and where RIM is not providing solutions. Somehow the demographics and size and number of this group escapes me. Seems to me there are a lot of happy BBerry users. For those who aren't there are always alternatives.
    09-30-09 06:32 PM
  11. forkup's Avatar
    Battery technology is something that needs a big leap forward.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    09-30-09 06:43 PM
  12. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    You want multi-tasking and much more memory on these phones. Fine. You'll be carrying around portable generators and the without the generators the battery half-life will be measured in minutes.
    That sounds right out of the iPhone playbook, with their excuse for no multitasking.

    But, it is already here, with very acceptable battery life. While I don't believe manufacturer's battery life ratings, the new non-BlackBerry device ratings are comparable to BlackBerry. Real-life reports, including my own, put devices like the TP2 at or better than BlackBerry - nearly two days in medium to heavy usage, better than I get from Curve, Storm or Tour. The Omnia 2 promises even more with its more efficient AMOLED display.

    So you can have more - more features, more screen, vastly more resolution & still maintain reasonable battery life.

    We'd all like more battery life - but until we see fuel cells powering these things (yes, they are coming), anything that can pull over 24 hours in heavy usage is sufficient.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    09-30-09 07:00 PM
  13. i7guy's Avatar
    That sounds right out of the iPhone playbook, with their excuse for no multitasking.

    But, it is already here, with very acceptable battery life. While I don't believe manufacturer's battery life ratings, the new non-BlackBerry device ratings are comparable to BlackBerry. Real-life reports, including my own, put devices like the TP2 at or better than BlackBerry - nearly two days in medium to heavy usage, better than I get from Curve, Storm or Tour. The Omnia 2 promises even more with its more efficient AMOLED display.

    So you can have more - more features, more screen, vastly more resolution & still maintain reasonable battery life.

    We'd all like more battery life - but until we see fuel cells powering these things (yes, they are coming), anything that can pull over 24 hours in heavy usage is sufficient.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    I can get a SEIDO 2600mah battery and probably go a week without charging and very heavy usage. You can always shoehorn in a bigger battery, but back to the portable generator concept. I have no complaints with my Tours two day battery life, but make the phone work like a quadcore Intel processor with Windows and watch what happens. In my book the TP2 is no better than the Tour, based on my friends observations and comparisons (the only person I know with a TP2.) As always YMMV.

    There is no doubt, better battery technology, solar cells to powered cell phones, more efficient processors and smaller circuit dies will make tomorrows cell phone outlast today's with greater processing power.
    09-30-09 08:30 PM
  14. jor-el's Avatar
    I've had my 8330 for almost a year now and it's my first smart phone. Like many others here I've become addicted to it however I'm beginning to realize that what I thought was a blackberry addiction is actually just a smart phone in general addiction. I've become addicted to having the web access and all that goes along with it. I'm a heavy pc and internet user when home and having it mobile is something I'd hate to give up.

    I've looked forward to the Storm2 like many others here but lately have started looking at other devices such as the htc touch pro 2. Rim is trying to make every conceivable device shape and format to have a phone that appeals to everyone. They are going hog wild if you will with all the hardware but seem to be very slow developing software that the masses want.

    As I watch youtube clips of some of the other new smart phones out I'm seeing how badly Rim is falling behind software wise. Yea they may have a new browser coming and everyone is drooling over OS 5.0 but what major advantage will it give the end user....not a lot that I can see.

    They may be raking in the money currently but if they wish to succeed in the long term they have absolutely got to do something about their OS whether it be a total redesign or make the move to another platform. I imagine somewhere they are secretly working on all this because if not they are going nowhere fast.

    I have a lot of unix and fbsd experience and android appeals to me. While it's still in its infancy I expect great things from it. Now we are finally seeing manufactorers making more phones for it.

    I'll be doing a lot of research looking at all the new smart phones. While I may still get myself a Storm2 that will last me a year I expect this time next year I'll be taking a long hard look at a platform other than blackberry.


    This is exactly me. Same everything. I was very much looking forward to the storm 2 but now the sholes/tao/droid is getting my attention.
    10-01-09 10:42 PM
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