05-28-09 05:19 AM
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  1. numus's Avatar
    I don't know for sure but I think it has something to do with vendor ID burned into Verizon bb's.
    Hense the experiment lol.. the one i proposed would answer this question once and for all..
    05-08-09 07:36 PM
  2. sprke81's Avatar
    ^^^ I know for a fact there is something different on how Verizon handles the gps software on bb's. There is an app called "signalLoc" for blackberries that i have had on all my berries. It has a neat little feature that shows where the cell tower is that your using. Guess what, that feature works on every provider but Verizon. The developer confirmed that it would not work on verizon berries at the moment because of the "vendor ID" He said that a cdma tower always sends its gps coordinates to the phone and he taps into the bb os and grabs that info so that we can see the tower location. He says that Verizons vendor id is such that he can't get it. I have a feeling that it has something to do with what we're talking about.
    05-08-09 07:48 PM
  3. numus's Avatar
    I have done this in a series.

    1) VZW 8330 on Sprint with VZW firmware - GPS works.
    2) VZW 8330 on Sprint with Sprint firmware - GPS works
    3) Sprint 8330 on VZW with Sprint firmware - GPS non-functional
    4) Sprint 8330 on VZW with VZW firmware - GPS non-functional

    When you work with carrier engineers on a regular basis, as I do, you can almost get an iPhone to work on VZW or a Voyager to work on AT&T.

    Remember, I said almost.

    Now bear in mind I have two 8330 devices that I carry - both VZW and both picked up right at a year ago. Two different lots. One has fully functional GPS, while the other needs a puck. Both are running stock VZW OS. The one that has GPS capability eats batteries a bit quicker than the other - I have a dozen batteries that I cycle through, so it isn't one battery instead of another. With GPS on, the battery goes even faster.

    Now, the one that has fully functional GPS maintains GPS functionality @ the Grand Canyon, a cellular black hole (no towers allowed) or with data turned off. The one that has limited GPS functionality stops locating anything when out of signal range or with data off.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    So it looks like a carrier pushed firmware or service... is there something special with your 8330 on verizon with fully unlocked GPS? If a sprint 8330 on verizon doesnt work then it is carrier server side not device hardware nor device internal firmware... unless one batch was made with a different gps chip that verizon doesnt push the firmware for i guess...

    Edit: Wow that whole post dissapeared

    By firmware are you talking about flashed hardware firmware in the phone.. or OS builds...
    What is amazing is verizon can only do it and does target their 8330s.. Cause a sprint 8330 roaming on the verizon network you would think verizon would log the ESN number and you know the data is going through verizon, but it doesnt submit.. lets call it solution X... that disables the gps capability like it does on their own phones..
    Last edited by numus; 05-08-09 at 08:22 PM.
    05-08-09 08:15 PM
  4. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    I have an experiment i have been wanting to try but cant find anyone at sprint or verizon willing to try it.. If a sprint or verizon tech rep could get their hands on the other carriers 8330 and register the esn on the network (like register a verizon 8330 on sprint) would the verizon's gps be unlocked? or visa versa with sprints being locked.. if so it is a carrier pushed firmware or service since an OS flash doesn't fix it.. If not then it is hardware related
    I have done this in a series.

    1) VZW 8330 on Sprint with VZW firmware - GPS works.
    2) VZW 8330 on Sprint with Sprint firmware - GPS works
    3) Sprint 8330 on VZW with Sprint firmware - GPS non-functional
    4) Sprint 8330 on VZW with VZW firmware - GPS non-functional

    Back to back switchouts, too.

    When you work with carrier engineers on a regular basis, as I do, you can almost get an iPhone to work on VZW or a Voyager to work on AT&T.

    Remember, I said almost.

    Now bear in mind I have two 8330 devices that I carry - both VZW and both picked up right at a year ago. Two different lots. One has fully functional GPS, while the other needs a puck. Both are running stock VZW OS. The one that has GPS capability eats batteries a bit quicker than the other - I have a dozen batteries that I cycle through, so it isn't one battery instead of another. With GPS on, the battery goes even faster.

    Now, the one that has fully functional GPS maintains GPS functionality @ the Grand Canyon, a cellular black hole (no towers allowed) or with data turned off. The one that has limited GPS functionality stops locating anything when out of signal range or with data off.

    The network restrictions are not burned into the phones - they are ESN registration based.

    All proof (to me at least, RM is hopeless) that it isn't within the phone - so no "locking" is going on.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-08-09 08:15 PM
  5. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    GPS is absolutely a firmware issue, not a hardware one. Limited hardware doesn't get gps working with bb maps through a verizon OS upgrade to 4.5.0.77

    Yes, there is a hardware difference between the storm and the 8330, but they are still both 100% capabe of the same performance regardless, both chips just go about grabbing a location in a different way. AGPS is more dedicated to network data to triangulate GPS position locking and keeping a location more securely, indoor and out (line of sight not required). This is partly why cell technology uses AGPS chips verses a standalone GPS. In the storm, network data is still locked out leaving only the other half of its capability open.

    Where is the lock enabled? I'm not exactly sure despite me knowing it is firmware related. Why can Verizon approve an OS build and get GPS unlocked for BB Maps, yet, before 4.5.0.77 came to be official, GPS was still not working. I had this OS build at least 2 months before Verizon approved it and I tested GPS on multiple occasions and it didn't bite. Personally, I think the code is written on a data/network level.

    But either way, the moral of the story is that Verizon cripples it regardless of the difference between hardware of the storm verse that of the 8330/8830. There is NO hardware limitation!
    Last edited by RicanMedic78; 05-08-09 at 08:51 PM.
    05-08-09 08:49 PM
  6. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    Limited hardware doesn't get gps working with bb maps through a verizon OS upgrade to 4.5.0.77
    !
    No, but updated software and the ability to access tower triangulation certainly would.

    It would be really nice if you actually started making sense - maybe someday, eh?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-08-09 09:23 PM
  7. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    it made prfect sense to me
    05-08-09 09:25 PM
  8. numus's Avatar
    No, but updated software and the ability to access tower triangulation certainly would.

    It would be really nice if you actually started making sense - maybe someday, eh?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Are you saying verizon didn't actually unlock the gps and just allowed bbmap too use cell tower triangulation.. cause that would be worse then them just locking out the function
    05-08-09 09:26 PM
  9. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    Are you saying verizon didn't actually unlock the gps and just allowed bbmap too use cell tower triangulation.. cause that would be worse then them just locking out the function
    No - with 4.5 & the new software, RIM made some changes and BBMaps can access the PDE, just like VZNav can.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-08-09 09:43 PM
  10. numus's Avatar
    No - with 4.5 & the new software, RIM made some changes and BBMaps can access the PDE, just like VZNav can.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    That makes a lot more sense... i thought for a second you ment bbmaps was using triangulation and i was going to be highly impressed with the accuracy on my friends verizon 8330... but this makes a lot more sense
    05-08-09 10:13 PM
  11. DesertDogs's Avatar
    That makes a lot more sense... i thought for a second you ment bbmaps was using triangulation and i was going to be highly impressed with the accuracy on my friends verizon 8330... but this makes a lot more sense
    Yeah it was a full upgrade of many of the software pieces. Also, I have seen his Curve's gps work with Garmin software loaded on it. Its the only one I have ever seen do it. Rican, I wish you were closer because I'd bet you $1000 you're wrong and I'd be $1000 richer. Like candy from a baby.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-08-09 10:28 PM
  12. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    That makes a lot more sense... i thought for a second you ment bbmaps was using triangulation and i was going to be highly impressed with the accuracy on my friends verizon 8330... but this makes a lot more sense
    A lot of folks credit 4.5 when in reality what 4.5 offered was open connectivity with tower locations - this allowed some software to work in triangulation mode. BBMaps was reconfigured to preserve privacy, so VZW allowed access to the PDEs.

    The difference means BBMaps & GoogleMaps work now, but BBMaps can pull supplemental GPS data for a pinpoint location, while other apps give you accuracy only to several thousand meters - not good for locating.

    It is my understanding that Google hasn't even applied for approval, because they don't want to agree to the privacy terms VZW has in place to protect customer data.

    Yeah it was a full upgrade of many of the software pieces. Also, I have seen his Curve's gps work with Garmin software loaded on it. Its the only one I have ever seen do it. Rican, I wish you were closer because I'd bet you $1000 you're wrong and I'd be $1000 richer. Like candy from a baby.
    Leave me out of any gambling - you know I don't gamble, nor want any part of it - even though I know you'd win.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-08-09 10:37 PM
  13. DesertDogs's Avatar
    Hey, I was just saying.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-08-09 10:39 PM
  14. Polychrome's Avatar
    For the record...

    This may kill a few conspiracy theories, but in my experience with data cards, evil things happen when Wi-Fi and EVDO are enabled at the same time. The connections collide and the server detects it as the computer/phone being hacked. Then the phone or data card gets kicked off.

    So if anybody wants to know why so few of our devices provide Wi-fi, that may provide some insight. Better to just let them use their cellular connection than to deal with the broken cellular connections.
    05-08-09 10:52 PM
  15. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    For the record...

    This may kill a few conspiracy theories, but in my experience with data cards, evil things happen when Wi-Fi and EVDO are enabled at the same time. The connections collide and the server detects it as the computer/phone being hacked. Then the phone or data card gets kicked off.

    So if anybody wants to know why so few of our devices provide Wi-fi, that may provide some insight. Better to just let them use their cellular connection than to deal with the broken cellular connections.
    Killing conspiracy theories? There are one or two running around here who don't listen to logic & reason, so the conspiracy theories just won't die!

    Your info is very true & lends credence to the fact it is the phone MANUFACTURERS who killl the WiFi idea. But the conflict is one of a few reasons and is fixable within the device., by the device maker, not the carriers.

    There are some conspiracy theories in this world that merit some serious consideration. Some I might even believe. The ones pertaining to GPS & WiFi are two I am not foolish enough to entertain.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Last edited by TwinsX2Dad; 05-08-09 at 11:39 PM.
    05-08-09 11:36 PM
  16. sprke81's Avatar
    !

    Your info is very true & lends credence to the fact it is the phone MANUFACTURERS who killl the WiFi idea. But the conflict is one of a few reasons and is fixable within the device., by the device maker, not the carriers.


    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Here is what Crucial Extreme has to say on that. He works at RIM and is testing the 9630, these are just 3 of the posts that he made of many to naysayers. I don't understand why its so hard to admit that Verizon leaves out certain features, I'm not slamming Verizon, I think they are a great company and know what they are doing. If they choose to leave out wifi they have a good reason for doing so and it probably won't hurt there business. It just bugs me that some on here refuse to admit that Verizon would do something like that.

    Whatever..........
    That doe not matter. There is now a new generation of devices, and it's out with the old. Hence the Bold & 8900. Wifi & GPS. The carrier has a huge say in what features are added or left off the device. But the lack of Wifi is NOT a RIM limitation.
    BlackBerry has nothing to do with Winmo or any other brand device. Plain and simple. I will tell you right now that the Niagara has Wifi. And works just fine. Now if it doesn't go to market with it, that's on Sprint and Verizon. It is not a limitation by the manufacturer. But you believe what ever makes you feel better. I can only say it so many times.
    Oh no, both the 9500 & 9530 have triband HSPA radios inside. But they locked down. It's not that they won't support NA HSPA, it's that the carrier didn't want it to, and it's the same for wifi.
    Last edited by sprke81; 05-09-09 at 12:53 AM.
    05-09-09 12:44 AM
  17. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    Rican, I wish you were closer because I'd bet you $1000 you're wrong and I'd be $1000 richer. Like candy from a baby.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    I'm not even sure what you are refering to. That aGPS is "data" locked? That the storm and 8330 have different GPS chips? What exactly are you refering to that makes you think that you could hussle $1000 from me?
    05-09-09 04:45 PM
  18. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    Here is what Crucial Extreme has to say on that. He works at RIM and is testing the 9630, these are just 3 of the posts that he made of many to naysayers. I don't understand why its so hard to admit that Verizon leaves out certain features, I'm not slamming Verizon, I think they are a great company and know what they are doing. If they choose to leave out wifi they have a good reason for doing so and it probably won't hurt there business. It just bugs me that some on here refuse to admit that Verizon would do something like that.

    Whatever..........
    From those simple quotes, I highy doubt the credibility he works for RIM, not to mention the issue that ALL CDMA carriers worldwide opted against WiFi, from VZW to Docomo to China Telecom to Sprint, but AT&T & T-Mobile allow it?

    I also find it odd that not only the T-Mobile Curves one or the other, but that also the internal chips have different part numbers.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-09-09 04:55 PM
  19. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    From those simple quotes, I highy doubt the credibility he works for RIM, not to mention the issue that ALL CDMA carriers worldwide opted against WiFi, from VZW to Docomo to China Telecom to Sprint, but AT&T & T-Mobile allow it?

    I also find it odd that not only the T-Mobile Curves one or the other, but that also the internal chips have different part numbers.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    cx doesn't come here to the vz forum often but he is a forum moderator and a very credible tester! He's tested the storm, given us info way before its come out (when he could) and also has been testing the 9630 for some time. Hes also given us the estimated dates way before the July 13th date came up by bgr! He's very credible and it is widely know by most of those who have followed him.

    He also confirmed to me that LTE will be faster than wifi when its rolled out completely over the years, although not initially. However, I do stand corrected on that point!

    I'm still waiting to read why I would lose $1000 bucks on any opinion I gave on the prev page....hmmm
    05-09-09 05:05 PM
  20. sprke81's Avatar
    not to mention the issue that ALL CDMA carriers worldwide opted against WiFi

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Yea, that very point was the subject of great debate over there. Thats why people were doubting him, hence the frustration in some of his posts.

    As for CX he seems to have inside info and he has always been spot on as far as release dates and details on different bbs in the past but of course I have no proof that he does, I'm just going on his word and other posters. He's seems to be highly regarded.
    05-09-09 05:07 PM
  21. ok4a56's Avatar


    Exactly my point. And exactly why tethering shouldn't be the same price as an aircard. You get better speeds,
    I agree, I have been tethering for a while now, and I just started to use an air card, and can see the faster speed of the aircard.
    05-09-09 10:41 PM
  22. TheSultan's Avatar
    These people aren't too upset!
    http://forums.crackberry.com/f71/i-love-verizon-210941/
    05-09-09 10:46 PM
  23. mab4285's Avatar
    Nope, they don't seem to be, but just because they are doesn't invalidate those that aren't happy with VZW either....

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-09-09 10:54 PM
  24. Thickfreakness's Avatar
    I agree, I have been tethering for a while now, and I just started to use an air card, and can see the faster speed of the aircard.

    The aircards are Rev-A along with the Storm, the Dare, and the Omnia. The curve and pearl and other dumbphones are all rev-0. Thats why you see a difference in speeds. I tether from my storm and its as fast as an aircard.
    05-09-09 10:56 PM
  25. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    desert/twins, still waiting to see how you'd hussle me out 1000... hmmmm kinda quiet on that now aren't we
    Last edited by RicanMedic78; 05-10-09 at 06:05 PM.
    05-10-09 12:47 AM
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