05-28-09 05:19 AM
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  1. trimdawg's Avatar
    To quote twinx2dad


    Ya i paraphrased but it works... i have yet to here a shred of viable or verifable evidence that verizon really does get better service than any other company.. The worn out talking points work in both directions...
    Actually there are quite a few non-partisian studies that state that big red does have better coverage. Not to mention larger 3g areas. So as talking points go this one does not seem to be "worn out" but a good marketing point.
    05-08-09 02:48 PM
  2. numus's Avatar
    Actually there are quite a few non-partisian studies that state that big red does have better coverage. Not to mention larger 3g areas. So as talking points go this one does not seem to be "worn out" but a good marketing point.
    Well as i have conducted my own independent studies.. but not with a projected coverage map, or a wireless spectrum sniffer.. but with a friggen sprint 8330 and verizon 8330... my finds conclude that in all the places i have gone with my friend 70-80% of the time his verizon phone didn't work my sprint phone did... and yet 100% of the time my sprint 8330 didnt work his verizon 8330 didnt work either...
    When you actually find a place that you can have a verizon 8330 in one hand and a sprint 8330 in your other hand and the verizon one can dial out while the sprint one can't.. then you can continue using that worn out point... till then i dont really care "theoretical" coverage... i care about when i need to use the phone which one will dial out..
    05-08-09 02:56 PM
  3. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    Ya i paraphrased but it works... i have yet to here a shred of viable or verifable evidence that verizon really does get better service than any other company.. The worn out talking points work in both directions...
    It has been shown in various places here and elsewhere - if you don't search, you will never find. Places with reasonable reputations like Consumer Reports, DSLReports, ARS, JDPower, Windows Magazine, Bloomberg & more. Let's see, we can also throw in total tower coverage area & third-party signal analysis, but you might have no clue as to what those mean.

    Besides - this forum is for VZW and is populated by those who choose VZW because of experiences and preferences. You walk into my house & start badmouthing and threatening me, I'd shoot you and your talking points, then explain later.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-08-09 02:59 PM
  4. numus's Avatar
    It has been shown in various places here and elsewhere - if you don't search, you will never find. Places with reasonable reputations like Consumer Reports, DSLReports, ARS, JDPower, Windows Magazine, Bloomberg & more. Let's see, we can also throw in total tower coverage area & third-party signal analysis, but you might have no clue as to what those mean.

    Besides - this forum is for VZW and is populated by those who choose VZW because of experiences and preferences. You walk into my house & start badmouthing and threatening me, I'd shoot you and your talking points, then explain later.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Want to throw in total bandwidth requirements for population density and contractual leasing of unused bandwidth to outside carriers used to subset maintance and power costs to a single carrier?
    I was just making a point agreeing with you, saying that you need to get the whole story before you start using the same tired points over and over again... If verizon really wanted to they could cancel their general roaming agreement with sprint and probably cause sprint to go out of business... This is pretty much a fact.. but why havent they? Think verizon might need sprint to help them subset costs? Or are they really just a nice company...
    05-08-09 03:03 PM
  5. jahutch's Avatar
    Hold on - you might want to reread your own post, as there are some inconsistencies there., besides the fact that GoogleMaps plain, flat sucks.
    Your opinion. For me its a killer, must-have app. End of story.

    First you compalin that tethering is slower than an Aircard, therefore not worth it - a "joke" is your word. Did it occur to you that your Aircard is probably CDMA RevA as opposed to most BlackBerrys running Rev 0?
    Exactly my point. And exactly why tethering shouldn't be the same price as an aircard. You get better speeds, and will therefore use more data, with an aircard. Tethering, in my mind, should be included in the cost of the BB data plan. If its not, then a more reasonable $10 or so extra a month.

    You then talk about T-Mobile, which is slower than even AT&T, then toss in Tetherberry as an alternative, which is even slower yet. Traffic/data recording proxies are like that, you know. I could probably realize better speeds with a 56k modem on dial-up.
    That's not what the reviews of TetherBerry have said. I'm not planning to stream YouTube or something, just web and e-mail and IM. If you haven't noticed, when it comes to tethering, my concern is more with COST than with SPEED. If I wanted, speed, I'd get the above-mentioned aircard.

    Back to your price thing - if the carrier hits you for tethering without a plan, how many years of service will $4000 pay for?
    What are you talking about?

    And I've yet to hear anyone show where VZW locks down anything or charges for things that no other carrier charges for. All they can say is the worn-out & unfounded talking point of "they lock it and overcharge me" without ever providing a shred of viable or verifiable evidence.
    GPS availability to 3rd party apps? Locked out (except on the new Storm, and hopefully the Tour). WiFi? Forget it.

    Your "basically identical" service at T-Mobile is far slower data rates (waiting for that missing 3G connection), reduced coverage area (out of service), higher cell-altering device radiation (cancer & more), hard handoffs between towers (dropped calls), dramatically reduced M2M coverage (use plan minutes for calls to VZW friends) - that doesn't sound like "basically identical" to me.
    I don't care what you call it, 3G or EDGE, real world performance is what matters to me. The fact is, my 8830, even with updated OS, is a slow dog with browsing. I tried an 8900, and it was MUCH faster, despite EDGE. Why? I'm guessing the CPU speed is the limiting factor more than the network speed. Regardless, I care more about REAL WORLD PERFORMANCE than whether it says "EDGE" or "1XEV" at the top of my screen. And with real world performance, the 8900 wins. Buy a new phone you say? Oh, I would, except Verizon doesn't have any new BlackBerries with a keyboard. 3 year old tech is still the best VZW offers.

    The point I will concede is in coverage. Which is my whole dilemma to start with. If TMo's coverage came close to matching VZW's I'd ditch VZW in a heartbeat, 3G or not. As it is, coverage is key for me, so I'll probably continue to swallow all the negatives.
    05-08-09 04:22 PM
  6. RicanMedic78's Avatar
    the negatives definitely need to be pointed out! Fanboys know the flaws and a lot of responses go like this, "vz isn't perfect BUT..." which is fine, but why don't u allow that "isn't perfect" statement run its course?

    Take the good with the bad. VZW definitely has good, but on the same token, it has bad. And as for you twins, you know this very well, however, your focus is to try to make vzw look like perfection while painting everyone else as simple whinners!

    Fact is, the negatives can't be hush hushed! If anything, everyone should know clearly what they're getting into. If people decide to switch, then an accumalitive affect with force vzw to change its ways. If it did, we just may have a brilliant network in the end. Don't try to stall progress for ideology
    05-08-09 04:36 PM
  7. jahutch's Avatar
    the negatives definitely need to be pointed out! Fanboys know the flaws and a lot of responses go like this, "vz isn't perfect BUT..." which is fine, but why don't u allow that "isn't perfect" statement run its course?

    Take the good with the bad. VZW definitely has good, but on the same token, it has bad. And as for you twins, you know this very well, however, your focus is to try to make vzw look like perfection while painting everyone else as simple whinners!

    Fact is, the negatives can't be hush hushed! If anything, everyone should know clearly what they're getting into. If people decide to switch, then an accumalitive affect with force vzw to change its ways. If it did, we just may have a brilliant network in the end. Don't try to stall progress for ideology
    Yeah - there is proof this does work. GPS is the prime example - its unlocked on the Storm, and by all accounts, will also be unlocked on the upcoming Tour. Enough people demanded it and VZW finally gave in.

    My plan is to wait for the Tour. If the GPS is in fact unlocked, and it is a good device, I may stick with VZW. Otherwise, I may go ahead and switch.
    05-08-09 05:13 PM
  8. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    Want to throw in total bandwidth requirements for population density and contractual leasing of unused bandwidth to outside carriers used to subset maintance and power costs to a single carrier?
    I was just making a point agreeing with you, saying that you need to get the whole story before you start using the same tired points over and over again... If verizon really wanted to they could cancel their general roaming agreement with sprint and probably cause sprint to go out of business... This is pretty much a fact.. but why havent they? Think verizon might need sprint to help them subset costs? Or are they really just a nice company...
    Too true. All carriers, under the current model, rely on the extra revenue provided by inter-carrier roaming agreements.

    When you look at the reality of things, carriers have to build to cover peak usage times. The rest of the time sees enormous amounts of capacity lying around unused.

    You can get a basic idea of the peak times for each carrier by looking at how they define peak times. Some carriers are busy from 6A-9P (like VZW & AT&T) or 7A-7P (like Sprint). There is typically about a 1-2 hour cushion on these times, to cover for the fact you can't always predict usage patterns. Outside of these times, a carrier isn't coming close to using their network capacity, which is why we see peak & off-peak times. What you pay for is the privilege to use the network during these peak times. The least expensive basic rate on any carrier pretty much pays for what it costs the carrier to service your account. Where they make money to improve & expand is in the extras - and roaming agreements.

    Think about that whenever you wonder why VZW costs what it does. I like to think of a little aside on this concept - AT&T's rates are right there with VZW, so why is it their network doesn't have the wide availability of 3G speeds & reliability? Partly because AT&T doesn't spend as much of their revenue on infrastructure and partly because GSM has proven it is more expensive to maintain. GSM is much cheaper initially, but the long-term costs eat the installation expense several times over.

    Sprint would be happy to be a reseller of network bandwidth. The recent announcement that they are outsourcing their network and its operation to Ericsson shows that. And VZW has no trouble selling other CDMA carriers some of that extra capacity. It does help offset investment & costs, plus it allows the carriers who buy the bandwidth to not have to amortize or depreciate initial construction & maintenance costs.

    Another interestint thing is in the wireline aspect. Many folks don't realize those cell towers require connection into the wired communications grid. We've installed AT&T equipment connected to VZW infrastructure, Sprint equipment into AT&T infrastructure, USCell into Sprint infrastucture - the list is pretty impressive and includes company names like Qwest, XO, Level3, AGL, and more. They all rely on each other. VZW even maintains GSM towers on their network.

    Unfortunately, some of this sharing may be coming to an end - with LTE, VZW will be able to offer something no one has been able to offer before and that is stationary service. This could potentially put more balance into network usage, negating much of the need for roaming revenues. This roaming revenue is hugely positive for VZW & AT&T, but a negative cashflow exists for Sprint & T-Mobile.

    VZW is aiming to kill off their EVDO coverage as soon as possible, while holding on to the 2G 1RTT segment longer, as it is a stable voice backup. When this happens, holes in Sprint's network will become rather apparent, at least to data users.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-08-09 05:15 PM
  9. Thickfreakness's Avatar
    I've never ,met anyone in person that liked Sprint. Yet on the world wide net webs, Sprint fanboys are out in droves.
    05-08-09 05:28 PM
  10. numus's Avatar
    I am not going to quote what you wrote because it is to long and apparent what i am responding to...
    That was exactly my point.. as current service right now (i am talking now.. not 2012) to say verizon network is far superior to sprint due to more towers and availability is not a true statement. This is based on the fact that verizon doesn't maintain ownership of their entire network. They lease out certain amounts of their network to sprint (in the form of a roaming agreement). So to talk about verizon's network and sprint's network (remember we are talking 2009 not 2012) is in sense talking about verizon's network, hense where ever verizon works sprint pretty much works the same. But when you look at sprint's infrastructure on their own dedicated network, it is in coverage areas with high population density where it is deemed addition bandwidth is necessary. The one flaw in verizon's plan is that when their network is down in these areas, they dont allow their customers to roam over to sprint. But if sprint goes down, they can roam right onto verizon's network. You can claim that makes sprint's network larger (in terms of available cellular use, not physical size) in these theoretical situations. The whole point is to claim verizon's superiority because of the physical size of their network is a double edged sword to people who dont understand the basic business model, and it is repeated way to often by people who have no clue what it really means but just want to spout off. If verizon is good for you, then stay with them.. but dont bash other services because you only remember some trivial not 100% factual tidbits of advertisement (advertising is more often misleading then factual).

    Now i am not going to debate LTE vs WiMAX for one simple reason.. We have no clue what is going to happen... HD DVD should have been the superior format due to its non proprietary nature (just like vhs beat betamax, mp3 beat minidisc, SD became the standard not Memorystick) but it lost to blueray and now when you buy a Blueray movie you pay royalties to sony. We have no idea what is going to happen, verizon could be investigated by the justice department tomorrow for something that we have no idea that is going on, or sprint could be bought out.. Right now LTE is a good 2-3 years from full deployment meaning even if someone went with sprint right now their contract would end and they would be able to switch to another service if LTE became the new standard.. I just dont like it based on how closed off it is while WiMAX is an open source standard built off 802.16. So lets all calm down, drink a beer and stop all this bashing each others carrier because in the end it doesnt really mean ****

    I've never ,met anyone in person that liked Sprint. Yet on the world wide net webs, Sprint fanboys are out in droves.
    Wow are you a moron? Or just really dumb?
    I have never met anna kournikova. But on the internet i can see lots of nice pictures of her...
    Last edited by numus; 05-08-09 at 05:33 PM.
    05-08-09 05:29 PM
  11. vatothe0's Avatar
    Yeah - there is proof this does work. GPS is the prime example - its unlocked on the Storm, and by all accounts, will also be unlocked on the upcoming Tour. Enough people demanded it and VZW finally gave in.

    My plan is to wait for the Tour. If the GPS is in fact unlocked, and it is a good device, I may stick with VZW. Otherwise, I may go ahead and switch.
    I take it you have not read or do not understand the gps hardware reasons for this.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-08-09 05:31 PM
  12. numus's Avatar
    I take it you have not read or do not understand the gps hardware reasons for this.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Truthfully the reason for this is about as valid as the reason why if i am flying on a sunday and miss my connecting flight in atlanta's airport at 11 am (because i was stuck on the tarmac for an hour waiting to get to the gate so i can run to try to make the connecting flight) i have to wait an hour and a half to get a beer while waiting the 6 hours for the next flight out because they cant serve alcohol before 12:30pm on a sunday...
    05-08-09 05:41 PM
  13. Thickfreakness's Avatar
    I am not going to quote what you wrote because it is to long and apparent what i am responding to...
    That was exactly my point.. as current service right now (i am talking now.. not 2012) to say verizon network is far superior to sprint due to more towers and availability is not a true statement. This is based on the fact that verizon doesn't maintain ownership of their entire network. They lease out certain amounts of their network to sprint (in the form of a roaming agreement). So to talk about verizon's network and sprint's network (remember we are talking 2009 not 2012) is in sense talking about verizon's network, hense where ever verizon works sprint pretty much works the same. But when you look at sprint's infrastructure on their own dedicated network, it is in coverage areas with high population density where it is deemed addition bandwidth is necessary. The one flaw in verizon's plan is that when their network is down in these areas, they dont allow their customers to roam over to sprint. But if sprint goes down, they can roam right onto verizon's network. You can claim that makes sprint's network larger (in terms of available cellular use, not physical size) in these theoretical situations. The whole point is to claim verizon's superiority because of the physical size of their network is a double edged sword to people who dont understand the basic business model, and it is repeated way to often by people who have no clue what it really means but just want to spout off. If verizon is good for you, then stay with them.. but dont bash other services because you only remember some trivial not 100% factual tidbits of advertisement (advertising is more often misleading then factual).

    Now i am not going to debate LTE vs WiMAX for one simple reason.. We have no clue what is going to happen... HD DVD should have been the superior format due to its non proprietary nature (just like vhs beat betamax, mp3 beat minidisc, SD became the standard not Memorystick) but it lost to blueray and now when you buy a Blueray movie you pay royalties to sony. We have no idea what is going to happen, verizon could be investigated by the justice department tomorrow for something that we have no idea that is going on, or sprint could be bought out.. Right now LTE is a good 2-3 years from full deployment meaning even if someone went with sprint right now their contract would end and they would be able to switch to another service if LTE became the new standard.. I just dont like it based on how closed off it is while WiMAX is an open source standard built off 802.16. So lets all calm down, drink a beer and stop all this bashing each others carrier because in the end it doesnt really mean ****



    Wow are you a moron? Or just really dumb?
    I have never met anna kournikova. But on the internet i can see lots of nice pictures of her...

    awwww...did the sprint employee just get off work? Come to the big bad Verizon boards to defend his company's honor?

    Sprint keeps hemorhaging customers and there is nothing you can say to dispute that. So dont be a ********* because Sprint posts losses every quarter and dont get your feelings hurt when you come to a VZW board and someone bashes Sprint.
    05-08-09 05:44 PM
  14. numus's Avatar
    awwww...did the sprint employee just get off work? Come to the big bad Verizon boards to defend his company's honor?

    Sprint keeps hemorhaging customers and there is nothing you can say to dispute that. So dont be a ********* because Sprint posts losses every quarter and dont get your feelings hurt when you come to a VZW board and someone bashes Sprint.
    Wow you really are as dumb as i first figured you to be... glad to see verizon has such intellectuals like you to defend them.. at least with twinx2dad and some of the other actually intelligent Verizon people i can have some form of knowledgeable conversation... you really are a sad and pathetic person... I am pretty sure you just quoted my response which was to someone, who you people actually listen to, AGREEING with me... amazing

    oh btw.. you rock a storm.. enough said...
    Last edited by numus; 05-08-09 at 05:51 PM.
    05-08-09 05:49 PM
  15. Thickfreakness's Avatar
    Wow you really are as dumb as i first figured you to be... glad to see verizon has such intellectuals like you to defend them.. at least with twinx2dad and some of the other actually intelligent Verizon people i can have some form of knowledgeable conversation... you really are a sad and pathetic person...

    Says the guy who just has to have the last word on a message board with a total stranger....

    Go ahead....take your last word...i'll let you have it....you seem to need a self esteem boost.

    BTW, are you calling Storm owner's stupid and sad and pathetic? that is what your post says. Do you hate jews and blacks too? What about arabs who have Storms?

    Now you can have the last word...hope it makes your miserable day shiny and bright!
    05-08-09 05:51 PM
  16. numus's Avatar
    Says the guy who just has to have the last word on a message board with a total stranger....

    Go ahead....take your last word...i'll let you have it....you seem to need a self esteem boost.

    BTW, are you calling Storm owner's stupid and sad and pathetic? that is what your post says. Do you hate jews and blacks too? What about arabs who have Storms?

    Now you can have the last word...hope it makes your miserable day shiny and bright!
    Glad to see when you are outsmarted you have to resort to accusations of being a racists or against an ethnicity. You are probably one those people in a minority that claim unfairness when you are actually judge on merit, not who you were born to.
    05-08-09 05:56 PM
  17. Thickfreakness's Avatar
    its like clockwork
    05-08-09 06:03 PM
  18. TwinsX2Dad's Avatar
    Yeah - there is proof this does work. GPS is the prime example - its unlocked on the Storm, and by all accounts, will also be unlocked on the upcoming Tour. Enough people demanded it and VZW finally gave in.
    .
    VZW did not "give in."
    if they did, why doesn't GPS work on other devices? As mentioned many times before, it is the hardware, not the carrier.

    As for RM's constant whining & talking points about WiFi, he still hasn't answered two simple questions - if it was VZW's decision, why does VZW offer WiFi on several devices and why is it no CDMA carrier, anywhere in the world, offers a WiFi CDMA BlackBerry. His claim that early development prototypes had WiFi, then the WiFi capability mysteriously vanished - he continually blames VZW for this disappearance, while conveniently leaving out the fact that CDMA carriers in Canada, Mexico, Korea, Japan, Taiwan, China & India. Somehow in his mind, VZW, with 80 million CDMA customers, can rule over the rest of the world with a total of over 500 million CDMA lines. He neglects even considering that maybe the WiFi radio was pulled by RIM for technical reasons or maybe it was never there to begin with. Those screen shots we see of system screens can easily be manipulated or indicatiing operating systems borrowed from other devices. The mules are never accurate and development is just that - development - and let's see what sticks to the wall when we sling it. Any WiFi hopes fell to the floor.

    The real telecom sources back this up while the fansites fan the flames of discontent.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-08-09 06:35 PM
  19. sprke81's Avatar
    The 9630 definitely had wifi. Its been confirmed by several people in the know. If I remember right battery life was one of the issues that it was pulled.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-08-09 06:41 PM
  20. numus's Avatar
    screw it...
    It just isnt going to happen.. RIM decides what is in a phone and what is not and they decide no wifi in cdma blackberry phones.. pretty much end of story.. dont like it.. go with a different phone manufacturer
    Last edited by numus; 05-08-09 at 07:04 PM.
    05-08-09 06:47 PM
  21. Insaynrb's Avatar
    I have and work for sprint and where i live they over the best coverage and pricing. I have at least 3 new acts a month coming from VZW so idk.
    05-08-09 07:00 PM
  22. sprke81's Avatar
    VZW did not "give in."
    if they did, why doesn't GPS work on other devices? As mentioned many times before, it is the hardware, not the carrier.
    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    If its the hardware why does my alltel 8330 work fine with any gps app? Is verizons 8330 different? Didn't verizon unlock something with the gps in the 4.5 os update?
    05-08-09 07:08 PM
  23. sprke81's Avatar
    screw it...
    It just isnt going to happen.. RIM decides what is in a phone and what is not and they decide no wifi in cdma blackberry phones.. pretty much end of story.. dont like it.. go with a different phone manufacturer
    RIM included wifi on the 9630 and it was pulled at verizons request. This has been confirmed over and over on 9630 forums. CX which is RIM tester said that there is no technical limitation with having wifi on cdma blackberry. He said that it was ultimately up to the carrier on what features to include and if the 9630 didn't have wifi when it was released that was verizons decision.
    05-08-09 07:14 PM
  24. numus's Avatar
    If its the hardware why does my alltel 8330 work fine with any gps app? Is verizons 8330 different? Didn't verizon unlock something with the gps in the 4.5 os update?
    I have an experiment i have been wanting to try but cant find anyone at sprint or verizon willing to try it.. If a sprint or verizon tech rep could get their hands on the other carriers 8330 and register the esn on the network (like register a verizon 8330 on sprint) would the verizon's gps be unlocked? or visa versa with sprints being locked.. if so it is a carrier pushed firmware or service since an OS flash doesn't fix it.. If not then it is hardware related
    05-08-09 07:15 PM
  25. sprke81's Avatar
    I have an experiment i have been wanting to try but cant find anyone at sprint or verizon willing to try it.. If a sprint or verizon tech rep could get their hands on the other carriers 8330 and register the esn on the network (like register a verizon 8330 on sprint) would the verizon's gps be unlocked? or visa versa with sprints being locked.. if so it is a carrier pushed firmware or service since an OS flash doesn't fix it.. If not then it is hardware related
    I don't know for sure but I think it has something to do with vendor ID burned into Verizon bb's.
    05-08-09 07:25 PM
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