10-15-18 11:10 AM
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  1. tazcubed's Avatar
    Blackberry needs to bring out a large format pkb device WITH DECENT SPECS - period. Yes, they can also bring a small form factor phone to appease those who want a compact device, but I doubt that the sales numbers will support it.

    Given the flagships of each manufacturer has gotten larger (iPhone XS Max and Note 8/9), Blackberry should get on the ball and figure out a device that can compete. The initial sales of the new iPhone point more interest to the larger device (and potentially curtailing sales of iPads). The Motion is a nice sized device, and as much as I like my Key2, it's biggest drawback has to be the screen (both in size and the quality thereof). I would love it if Blackberry/TCL could find a way to make it happen.
    09-26-18 10:04 AM
  2. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    1) BlackBerry is out of the hardware business.

    2) BBMo is part of TCL Communications, which is a troubled company... they are limited in what they can do.

    3) BlackBerry Licencing, Suite of Apps, Android Secure and update procedures, and the PKB design all add cost to BBMo products - roughly $200- $250. KEYone, Motion, KEY2 and KEY2 LE should clearly show what they can and can not do. DECENT SPECS is what they do.... flagship specs is just not a viable option for them.

    4) Larger than the KEY2... is going to be difficult with a PKB phone and keep it one handed. SLAB, sure they could go bigger than the Motion, and probable should offer both a Motion size and a Motion plus an 1".

    5) They are already a NICHE player.... going smaller or going larger is too risky.
    Laura Knotek and the_boon like this.
    09-26-18 10:38 AM
  3. tazcubed's Avatar
    1) BlackBerry is out of the hardware business.

    2) BBMo is part of TCL Communications, which is a troubled company... they are limited in what they can do.

    3) BlackBerry Licencing, Suite of Apps, Android Secure and update procedures, and the PKB design all add cost to BBMo products - roughly $200- $250. KEYone, Motion, KEY2 and KEY2 LE should clearly show what they can and can not do. DECENT SPECS is what they do.... flagship specs is just not a viable option for them.

    4) Larger than the KEY2... is going to be difficult with a PKB phone and keep it one handed. SLAB, sure they could go bigger than the Motion, and probable should offer both a Motion size and a Motion plus an 1".

    5) They are already a NICHE player.... going smaller or going larger is too risky.
    Dunt, with all due respect, when I say "Blackberry" it means Blackberry/TCL or BBMo as you like to call it. Seasoned members are well aware Blackberry is out of producing handsets.

    Items 2 and 3, I can partially agree with. However the rest - nope. Do the people who buy/bought the slabs like the Note and XS Max think they were going to do their work one-handed? Even with the Key2, how many people REALLY use it one-handed? Finally, I think larger has less risk than going smaller but I doubt the Motion would garner many additional sales - partly because of the lack of flagship specs. There's certainly a viable market for the larger phone size given the sales of each of Notes and Max(es) (and others). The issue - for when Blackberry made phones such as the Passport, was that the design was an enigma, and the Priv was held back by middling specs. The Key2 is a sign that the middle specs are better because the middle range chipsets are more thoroughly thought out and better performing as a whole, yet straight up cannot do everything that the flagship chipsets do.
    09-29-18 08:28 AM
  4. spARTacus's Avatar
    I assume they are well aware of what the other companies appear to be doing and they are also well informed for their decision making in terms of what makes best sense/risk/opportunity for their specific situation. I also assume they have a lot less flexibility for risk than the other companies. We and they may both want their sales to drastically increase but I don't think they have any short term expectation of catching or matching the other companies with these models.

    Posted via CB10 on Z10
    09-29-18 09:12 AM
  5. spARTacus's Avatar
    I am not currently a fan of large devices. I will try to use my Z10 until it is dead. In comparison, I think the Motion and Key devices are huge and I wouldn't want anything bigger.

    I think anything much bigger than a Z10 is already often a two hand device. With the Z10 VKB for example, I need to use two hands to achieve any sort of efficiency or speed when typing.

    With my preferences, I don't think I am the target market for anything (in general) in terms of a phone nowadays. So, I have pretty much resigned to just needing to pick from what is available as opposed to trying to encourage people or companies towards my general opinions about phones.

    Posted via CB10 on Z10
    09-29-18 09:31 AM
  6. thurask's Avatar
    Given the flagships of each manufacturer has gotten larger (iPhone XS Max and Note 8/9), Blackberry should get on the ball and figure out a device that can compete.
    If BB Ltd/TCL were capable and willing at any point in the past five (plus) years of producing a device competitive with what Apple and Samsung put out as the top of the line, you'd think they would have done that. TCL's device strategy is to forego competition and instead milk the same niche year after year.
    tazcubed and skinnymike1 like this.
    09-29-18 09:42 AM
  7. The_Passporter's Avatar
    If BB Ltd/TCL were capable and willing at any point in the past five (plus) years of producing a device competitive with what Apple and Samsung put out as the top of the line, you'd think they would have done that. TCL's device strategy is to forego competition and instead milk the same niche year after year.
    Their strategy is based on an old model and people are much more aware of specs in this day and age not to mention playing on android 's field where more people know that specs matter more.
    BlackBerry may have had success with that old games plan in past years but I think they (BlackBerry /TCL ) need to take that step forward and produce a phone that will make people speak to their friends about it and reviewers alike. And let tighten up on quality BlackBerry!!!
    09-29-18 09:54 AM
  8. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Their strategy is based on an old model and people are much more aware of specs in this day and age not to mention playing on android 's field where more people know that specs matter more.
    BlackBerry may have had success with that old games plan in past years but I think they (BlackBerry /TCL ) need to take that step forward and produce a phone that will make people speak to their friends about it and reviewers alike. And let tighten up on quality BlackBerry!!!
    Only Flagship OEMs can afford to play the carrier game and they’re not relinquishing they’re position anytime soon. Even Google is solidifying it’s hardware position within Android. It effectively took over part of the hardware business of major Flagship OEM. It’s successfully building its own proprietary hardware and coexisting with it’s largest Android customers while strongly over capitalized against those same Android competitors.

    Whoever the carriers put on the shelves and offer full device features and support will be the leading OEMs...
    The_Passporter likes this.
    09-29-18 11:02 AM
  9. The_Passporter's Avatar
    Only Flagship OEMs can afford to play the carrier game and they’re not relinquishing they’re position anytime soon. Even Google is solidifying it’s hardware position within Android. It effectively took over part of the hardware business of major Flagship OEM. It’s successfully building its own proprietary hardware and coexisting with it’s largest Android customers while strongly over capitalized against those same Android competitors.

    Whoever the carriers put on the shelves and offer full device features and support will be the leading OEMs...
    Not saying they shouldn't make phones Luke the KEY line but to make one flagship even every two three years so there is an offering for all to choose. I know if I am holding out there must be many more in the same boat
    09-29-18 11:05 AM
  10. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Not enough to matter. Everyone has moved on to Flagship OEMs. The remaining OEMs like BBMo/TCL can’t get access to Flagship components such as the latest chips at reasonable prices because the existing Flagship OEMs have the supply locked up for themselves. The components suppliers won’t upset their enormous, profitable and healthy relationships for upstarts like BBMo/TCL. Even when certain OEMs do gain size and scope, the carriers will cut them down through control of the pipelines. Just ask those second tier “on the brink” OEMs how well their product never got on the shelves of Verizon or AT&T. There’s no success in Android without the carriers and no Flagships without the carriers when you haven’t got the resources to produce one and place to sell the Flagship.
    Not saying they shouldn't make phones Luke the KEY line but to make one flagship even every two three years so there is an offering for all to choose. I know if I am holding out there must be many more in the same boat
    09-29-18 11:22 AM
  11. Bbnivende's Avatar
    TCL currently make devices with a higher screen body ratio and 18:9 screens. It can be done but problems remain. They do not currently have the required software expertise for their camera and OEM apps , security patches and launcher. The BlackBerry licence fee is an insurmountable obstacle for all touch mid tier device pricing. Flagship is impossible right now.

    TCL sales are down 30 percent this year and in the previous year.
    09-29-18 11:23 AM
  12. The_Passporter's Avatar
    Not enough to matter. Everyone has moved on to Flagship OEMs. The remaining OEMs like BBMo/TCL can’t get access to Flagship components such as the latest chips at reasonable prices because the existing Flagship OEMs have the supply locked up for themselves. The components suppliers won’t upset their enormous, profitable and healthy relationships for upstarts like BBMo/TCL. Even when certain OEMs do gain size and scope, the carriers will cut them down through control of the pipelines. Just ask those second tier “on the brink” OEMs how well their product never got on the shelves of Verizon or AT&T. There’s no success in Android without the carriers and no Flagships without the carriers when you haven’t got the resources to produce one and place to sell the Flagship.
    Are you saying I don't matter ???

    WELL I NEVER!!!
    09-29-18 05:17 PM
  13. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Are you saying I don't matter ???

    WELL I NEVER!!!
    To me you matter and I’ll count you in as my initial funding source when I have the idea to build a smartphone.
    The_Passporter likes this.
    09-29-18 05:51 PM
  14. spARTacus's Avatar
    Their strategy is based on an old model and people are much more aware of specs in this day and age not to mention playing on android 's field where more people know that specs matter more.
    BlackBerry may have had success with that old games plan in past years but I think they (BlackBerry /TCL ) need to take that step forward and produce a phone that will make people speak to their friends about it and reviewers alike. And let tighten up on quality BlackBerry!!!
    The impression I had was their (TCL, etc...) strategy is not old at all but is instead based very specifically on their current today situation. Also, not at all based on a specific BlackBerry strategy from the past, other than perhaps the one part of strategy that revolves around selling things to people who want to buy such things (eg: PKB, predictive/flick VKB, hub, security). As said in one of the other responses, I think they are specifically trying to stay away from competing to top out on the spec game and instead are focusing on the other things that people will speak to their friends about beyond all the Android things that come as part of every Android phone, specs aside.

    Posted via CB10 on Z10
    09-29-18 07:00 PM
  15. Bbnivende's Avatar
    The impression I had was their (TCL, etc...) strategy is not old at all but is instead based very specifically on their current today situation. Also, not at all based on a specific BlackBerry strategy from the past, other than perhaps the one part of strategy that revolves around selling things to people who want to buy such things (eg: PKB, predictive/flick VKB, hub, security). As said in one of the other responses, I think they are specifically trying to stay away from competing to top out on the spec game and instead are focusing on the other things that people will speak to their friends about beyond all the Android things that come as part of every Android phone, specs aside.

    Posted via CB10 on Z10
    TLC said that they were wanting eventually to sell something like 8 to 10 million premium devices. At some point they need a very good mid-range all touch.

    TLC needs to rework their fee structure for the all touch segment. I would go with BlackBerry Secure plus BlackBerry Suite and a keyboard negotiated with Swift key. I wouldn’t be surprised if they couldn’t either improve the hardware or reduce the sales price. Sell the phone under the TLC brand.
    09-30-18 12:30 PM
  16. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    TLC said that they were wanting eventually to sell something like 8 to 10 million premium devices. At some point they need a very good mid-range all touch.

    TLC needs to rework their fee structure for the all touch segment. I would go with BlackBerry Secure plus BlackBerry Suite and a keyboard negotiated with Swift key. I wouldn’t be surprised if they couldn’t either improve the hardware or reduce the sales price. Sell the phone under the TLC brand.
    Biggest thing holding up sales is geopolitical climate. Licensing BB name was supposed to help them join their domestic peer brands in the USA/NA as next steps were carrier sales and support. When their larger peers were unceremoniously denied, it appears BBMo/TCL may be a casualty of trade dispute.
    09-30-18 12:56 PM
  17. Bbnivende's Avatar
    Biggest thing holding up sales is geopolitical climate. Licensing BB name was supposed to help them join their domestic peer brands in the USA/NA as next steps were carrier sales and support. When their larger peers were unceremoniously denied, it appears BBMo/TCL may be a casualty of trade dispute.
    Perhaps.

    I don’t think there is a lot of pent up demand for BlackBerry phones in the USA. The USA was the first market to give up up on BlackBerry - probably as early as 2011.

    If BlackBerry would allow TCL to separate the brand from the software, the Asia market shows the best long term sales potential.
    09-30-18 06:44 PM
  18. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Perhaps.

    I don’t think there is a lot of pent up demand for BlackBerry phones in the USA. The USA was the first market to give up up on BlackBerry - probably as early as 2011.

    If BlackBerry would allow TCL to separate the brand from the software, the Asia market shows the best long term sales potential.
    I’m not sure there’s any value in the BB name for consumers beyond the PKB. Those of us that find value in BBAndroid can be considered limited for now. Most consumers would have to use a BBAndroid PKB for awhile, then decide a BBAndroid VKB model is worth premium. Too many people just hear Android on the software end. In some ways, that’s what BB and BBMo want also. They don’t want consumers to confuse BBAndroid for some retreaded BB10 software without current full Android ecosystem.
    09-30-18 08:35 PM
  19. stlabrat's Avatar
    OP, let me try put on my "marketing" course study in use: Apple has rather large users in medical field (based on iOS app), large format and high end spec met the requirement and most likely, those chaps are willing to pay for it as part of professional tool. Sammy got gaming in mind, those chaps after faster processor, high memory counts - perfect fit for sammy to sale more high price components (remind you, without mark up like they sold to other companies. they always have advantage over others). Huawei want chaps using their network gear, handsets just add on that ensure their network got fully utilized as package (plus gov subs $). BBMo? it still target business user under BYOD in some area, buy bulk (like Gov MIL IT) at discount in the other. Try to justify to your boss, being your better half or your Mgr you need high end device because you want to watch youtube, play game, show off to your buddy...? Until BBMo cornered an app for a specific user group, like medical field that can justify high price/large format/high spec (better be a larger enough to cover RD cost), i think you are going to be long wait... watch out any app come out from auto field (since BB is focus on that), or any other professional use app... once that is in sight, come back and put a case study to voice your wishes as you indicated in title, i am looking forward to study your case (hopefully, apple and sammy have not set a foot in the same field as yet.... MIL application, might be a good start, but possibly is out of your reach). IMHO.
    09-30-18 09:49 PM
  20. Bbnivende's Avatar
    I’m not sure there’s any value in the BB name for consumers beyond the PKB. Those of us that find value in BBAndroid can be considered limited for now. Most consumers would have to use a BBAndroid PKB for awhile, then decide a BBAndroid VKB model is worth premium. Too many people just hear Android on the software end. In some ways, that’s what BB and BBMo want also. They don’t want consumers to confuse BBAndroid for some retreaded BB10 software without current full Android ecosystem.
    I agree with PKB now but sometime and soon they will need a decent VKB.
    10-01-18 01:57 AM
  21. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    I agree with PKB now but sometime and soon they will need a decent VKB.
    TCL already knows how to make VKB hardware. If there’s any possibility of success, TCL would produce one under their own brand names or Palm which they own so no licensing fees. There’s just no reason to make VKB devices when they will be non-competitive in the VKB space. It’s the same reason why there was never a Z50. It’s just wasted resources that BBMo/TCL would rather put towards a better PKB device.

    I would love a new VKB device ala DTEK or Motion but the reality it would cost more than competitor OEM Flagships with no marketable reason for consumers.
    10-01-18 07:05 AM
  22. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    I agree with PKB now but sometime and soon they will need a decent VKB.
    Why?

    If Enterprise was really interested in BlackBerry's Android Secure... then I'd agree that they'd need a Slab phone as that is the format of choice for most users. But there really is no sign that Enterprise needs or wants BlackBerry's Android Secure. Difference between Samsung's KNOX security is marginal at best, but difference is the cost (up front) or risk (will they be there long term) factors are substantial.

    I bet that last year when they were making rounds with Carrier's and Retailers, that they found little support for the Motion. The hope might have been that give the market another 12 - 18 months and see if the brand's support would grow and thus allow for another try at a SLAB.

    Aurora, Motion and now the Evolve (if they get released)... I expect BBMo will have all the sales data they need to make a decision about future products.
    10-01-18 09:40 AM
  23. Bbnivende's Avatar
    The question is whether the BlackBerry Brand is viable long term for TLC if they just sell PKB devices.
    10-01-18 01:26 PM
  24. thurask's Avatar
    The question is whether the BlackBerry Brand is viable long term for TLC if they just sell PKB devices.
    Seeing as how the PKB is the one thing that's simultaneously associated with the name "BlackBerry" and not offered by any other manufacturer in anything more substantial than an addon case and/or vaporware on Kickstarter, if TCL ever sees a profit from this entire exercise it would probably be from there.
    10-01-18 01:39 PM
  25. Bbnivende's Avatar
    The problem is with the low volumes . Running a separate company within TCL plus all the costs of designing and implementing and servicing of the devices are prohibitive.

    I think the lowest number that Chen had for profitability was about 5 million units. BBmo is no where close.

    TCL needs to rework the agreement with BlackBerry in a manner which will allow them to grow the brand.
    Last edited by Bbnivende; 10-01-18 at 04:01 PM.
    Hphv likes this.
    10-01-18 02:32 PM
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