08-06-15 04:53 AM
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  1. idon12no's Avatar
    Logic appears to be a big argument on this post. Another huge point throughout all of Crackberry is that BlackBerry owns the physical keyboard market. With these two points in mind and the tiny percent of market share that BlackBerry has left, is it not safe to say that owning PKB is not good enough?

    Posted via CB10
    DS1331 likes this.
    06-26-14 07:42 PM
  2. redlightblinking's Avatar
    Logic appears to be a big argument on this post. Another huge point throughout all of Crackberry is that BlackBerry owns the physical keyboard market. With these two points in mind and the tiny percent of market share that BlackBerry has left, is it not safe to say that owning PKB is not good enough?

    Posted via CB10
    Good enough for what? World domination? Or....survival?

    I think BB would agree with you that PKB "ownership" is not enough....they of course want more than that. But they're doing what they can one step at a time, at their usual drunken snail's pace.
    06-26-14 07:56 PM
  3. crazigee's Avatar
    You changed it from BlackBerry (dismissing iPhone) to stuff you've read people on the internet write about iphones.

    hyperbole noun \hī-ˈpər-bə-(ˌ)lē\
    : language that describes something as better or worse than it really is

    You said that "Apparently the only reason people are buying the iPhone is that they are uneducated and brainwashed". That's not an exaggeration?
    Really? So the vast majority of threads here that acknowledge that Apple make a great product, but they prefer BlackBerry simply based on personal preference?

    No. Most threads here trash the iPhone as inferior and people that buy it as stupid and uneducated. That's dismissive, whether you agree or not.

    You still haven't answered my question about how BlackBerry is dismissive of iPhone today, other than they make keyboard phones. Which apparently means they dismissed iPhone before it even existed.
    They dismissed the iPhone when it was first released by continuing to make keyboard phones when the majority of people wanted touch devices. They continue to be dismissive by insisting on focusing on keyboards when clearly that is a small niche market that isn't big enough to support them. They are also dismissive by making devices that don't compete with the iPhone on specs.

    This is true of not just the iPhone but Android devices.

    How is that dismissing it? That's acknowledging it. Apple is the best marketing company in the history of consumer electronics. Even though their device is actually inferior in many ways to other options available, they've created an image....and even created a market where none existed before when BlackBerry's were only in the hands of business people and celebrities.
    You've proved my point. You are dismissive of the iPhone as an inferior product. Instead blaming marking for BlackBerry's current problems, and Apple's success.

    But, please, how does BlackBerry , not some fanatics, dismiss iPhone? Why do you keep avoiding that question?
    Refer to my first paragraph. I'm not going to keep repeating it just because you don't like the answer or disagree with it.

    Posted using my Z10 via CB10
    Bbnivende likes this.
    06-26-14 08:40 PM
  4. redlightblinking's Avatar
    Really? So the vast majority of threads here that acknowledge that Apple make a great product, but they prefer BlackBerry simply based on personal preference?

    No. Most threads here trash the iPhone as inferior and people that buy it as stupid and uneducated. That's dismissive, whether you agree or not.
    Which has absolutely NOTHING to do with my question or YOUR CLAIM that BlackBerry dismisses iPhone. Once again, you change the subject.

    They dismissed the iPhone when it was first released by continuing to make keyboard phones when the majority of people wanted touch devices.
    You have no evidence to support the theory that the majority of people.....all using keyboards exclusively if they had a phone at all....wanted touch screens the moment the iphone was released. Many people reluctantly gave up their keyboard IN EXCHANGE for both screen space and those apps. Many people to this day, both on this web site, and in casual discussions, still miss keyboards. For some reason, Ryan Seacrest and his company decided enough of those people still exist NOW that they wanted to sell them keyboards.

    . They continue to be dismissive by insisting on focusing on keyboards when clearly that is a small niche market that isn't big enough to support them.
    How are they "focusing" on keyboards. Their first BB10 device was specifically an all touch to show that they were not "focusing" on keyboards. Half of their current BB10 line up have no keyboards. And, that "small niche market" IS supporting them. The most used and most sold products from BlackBerry.......have a keyboard. Get your facts straight.

    . They are also dismissive by making devices that don't compete with the iPhone on specs.
    Which specs? Tiny screens. Small batteries that you can't replace? Proprietary power plugs?

    This is true of not just the iPhone but Android devices.
    I agree that Android phone makers seem to be putting more "under the hood". But does my screen scroll any faster on an Android because of this? I'm curious though, if you've seen the specs on the recently announced phones. You know, those darn keyboard phones.

    You've proved my point. You are dismissive of the iPhone as an inferior product. Instead blaming marking for BlackBerry's current problems, and Apple's success.
    You see what ever key words you want to and then jump to conclusions. I didn't dismiss iPhone as an inferior product overall.....I said that it is actually "inferior in many ways to other options available". You know....like....screen size. Or, battery life. Or being able to customize your device beyond the plastic case you buy. Or......handling messaging.

    I PRAISED apple, I didn't dismiss them. I'm just not naive enough to think that simply selling masses of phones to the masses means you did it because the masses ALL made their decision based on meticulous research or on particular specs or logical needs. Most of this new market didn't even HAVE a smart phone until Apple convinced them to spend the money for a touch screen Ipod that makes phone calls and connects to the internet on crappy ATT. Absolute genius marketing, and BB let it happen right in front of them.

    Refer to my first paragraph. I'm not going to keep repeating it just because you don't like the answer or disagree with it.
    I don't want you to repeat it, I'd like you to EXPLAIN it. Explain how making a keyboard phone (when that is what your core customers keep buying) in addition to other non-keyboard phones makes BlackBerry dismissive of Apple. Don't you actually have to somehow mention Apple to dismiss them? I'm don't really hear them talking about Apple much.
    Last edited by redlightblinking; 06-26-14 at 09:40 PM.
    DS1331 and Shadowyugi like this.
    06-26-14 09:10 PM
  5. DS1331's Avatar
    When you say "emphasizing", you mean making the phone they're famous for that their loyalists love?

    And, how does making a keyboard phone mean you are dismissing Iphone? They also make non-touch screen phones.




    So.......you're changing the subject? What does this hyperbolic statement about web posters have to do with BlackBerry (the company) "dismissing" iphone?
    Huh who makes non touchscreen phones? Apple?

    Posted via CB10
    06-26-14 09:46 PM
  6. DS1331's Avatar
    Good enough for what? World domination? Or....survival?

    I think BB would agree with you that PKB "ownership" is not enough....they of course want more than that. But they're doing what they can one step at a time, at their usual drunken snail's pace.
    Baby steps dude, they have to repair their imagine and get BB07 users to switch over, that would make them a a lot of money hence the PKP

    Posted via CB10
    stenekes likes this.
    06-26-14 09:48 PM
  7. DS1331's Avatar

    Which has absolutely NOTHING to do with my question or YOUR CLAIM that BlackBerry dismisses iPhone. Once again, you change the subject.



    You have no evidence to support the theory that the majority of people.....all using keyboards exclusively if they had a phone at all....wanted touch screens the moment the iphone was released. Many people reluctantly gave up their keyboard IN EXCHANGE for both screen space and those apps. Many people to this day, both on this web site, and in casual discussions, still miss keyboards. For some reason, Ryan Seacrest and his company decided enough of those people still exist NOW that they wanted to sell them keyboards.


    How are they "focusing" on keyboards. Their first BB10 device was specifically an all touch to show that they were not "focusing" on keyboards. Half of their current BB10 line up have no keyboards. And, that "small niche market" IS supporting them. The most used and most sold products from BlackBerry.......have a keyboard. Get your facts straight.


    Which specs? Tiny screens. Small batteries that you can't replace? Proprietary power plugs?



    I agree that Android phone makers seem to be putting more "under the hood". But does my screen scroll any faster on an Android because of this? I'm curious though, if you've seen the specs on the recently announced phones. You know, those darn keyboard phones.


    You see what ever key words you want to and then jump to conclusions. I didn't dismiss iPhone as an inferior product overall.....I said that it is actually "inferior in many ways to other options available". You know....like....screen size. Or, battery life. Or being able to customize your device beyond the plastic case you buy. Or......handling messaging.

    I PRAISED apple, I didn't dismiss them. I'm just not naive enough to think that simply selling masses of phones to the masses means you did it because the masses ALL made their decision based on meticulous research or on particular specs or logical needs. Most of this new market didn't even HAVE a smart phone until Apple convinced them to spend the money for a touch screen Ipod that makes phone calls and connects to the internet on crappy ATT. Absolute genius marketing, and BB let it happen right in front of them.



    I don't want you to repeat it, I'd like you to EXPLAIN it. Explain how making a keyboard phone (when that is what your core customers keep buying) in addition to other non-keyboard phones makes BlackBerry dismissive of Apple. Don't you actually have to somehow mention Apple to dismiss them? I'm don't really hear them talking about Apple much.
    In one context he is right bro, they let apple take the market right in front of them, even the CEO of BlackBerry was like touch screens will never last we don't have to worry about it (AKA dismissing apple)

    Posted via CB10
    06-26-14 09:51 PM
  8. redlightblinking's Avatar
    Baby steps dude, they have to repair their imagine and get BB07 users to switch over, that would make them a a lot of money hence the PKP

    Posted via CB10
    Uh, what? Did you mean to respond to my post?
    06-26-14 09:53 PM
  9. redlightblinking's Avatar
    In one context he is right bro, they let apple take the market right in front of them,

    Posted via CB10
    Actually, I literally said that.

    even the CEO of BlackBerry was like touch screens will never last we don't have to worry about it (AKA dismissing apple)

    Posted via CB10
    How many years ago was that? Has nothing do to with what the poster claimed is happening today....in 2014.
    Last edited by redlightblinking; 06-26-14 at 10:22 PM.
    06-26-14 09:55 PM
  10. crazigee's Avatar

    Which has absolutely NOTHING to do with my question or YOUR CLAIM that BlackBerry dismisses iPhone. Once again, you change the subject.



    You have no evidence to support the theory that the majority of people.....all using keyboards exclusively if they had a phone at all....wanted touch screens the moment the iphone was released. Many people reluctantly gave up their keyboard IN EXCHANGE for both screen space and those apps. Many people to this day, both on this web site, and in casual discussions, still miss keyboards. For some reason, Ryan Seacrest and his company decided enough of those people still exist NOW that they wanted to sell them keyboards.


    How are they "focusing" on keyboards. Their first BB10 device was specifically an all touch to show that they were not "focusing" on keyboards. Half of their current BB10 line up have no keyboards. And, that "small niche market" IS supporting them. The most used and most sold products from BlackBerry.......have a keyboard. Get your facts straight.


    Which specs? Tiny screens. Small batteries that you can't replace? Proprietary power plugs?



    I agree that Android phone makers seem to be putting more "under the hood". But does my screen scroll any faster on an Android because of this? I'm curious though, if you've seen the specs on the recently announced phones. You know, those darn keyboard phones.


    You see what ever key words you want to and then jump to conclusions. I didn't dismiss iPhone as an inferior product overall.....I said that it is actually "inferior in many ways to other options available". You know....like....screen size. Or, battery life. Or being able to customize your device beyond the plastic case you buy. Or......handling messaging.

    I PRAISED apple, I didn't dismiss them. I'm just not naive enough to think that simply selling masses of phones to the masses means you did it because the masses ALL made their decision based on meticulous research or on particular specs or logical needs. Most of this new market didn't even HAVE a smart phone until Apple convinced them to spend the money for a touch screen Ipod that makes phone calls and connects to the internet on crappy ATT. Absolute genius marketing, and BB let it happen right in front of them.



    I don't want you to repeat it, I'd like you to EXPLAIN it. Explain how making a keyboard phone (when that is what your core customers keep buying) in addition to other non-keyboard phones makes BlackBerry dismissive of Apple. Don't you actually have to somehow mention Apple to dismiss them? I'm don't really hear them talking about Apple much.
    I have no evidence? I'm sorry I must have missed the peer reviewed study you're quoting from. Lol.

    Posted using my Z10 via CB10
    06-26-14 10:37 PM
  11. crazigee's Avatar
    Actually, I literally said that.


    How many years ago was that? Has nothing do to with what the poster claimed is happening today....in 2014.
    It's exactly the same. BlackBerry are "focusing" on keyboards again! That's what they did before and it was a disaster. Now they're doing it again but somehow expect a different result. Insanity.

    Posted using my Z10 via CB10
    06-26-14 10:40 PM
  12. Shadowyugi's Avatar
    I honestly don't see some people being CEO of hardware companies based on this thread.

    It's like everybody believes the "Follow the sheep" method automatically = instant success.

    Z10 is awesome but the market ignored it.
    Z30 is infinitely better than the Z10, but the market ignored it (admittedly, the adverts were lacking)
    Q10 is amazing. Sold more than the Z10.
    Q5 is just as good. Still has more value than the Z10.
    BBOS7 users don't wanna change. They want the belt back.

    These users are numbered in their millions.

    What is the next obvious step?

    And then the passport. Very evidently a Niche device. How does the success of a company suddenly depend solely on this one niche device?
    BroncoVAL and Irish Blues like this.
    06-27-14 06:00 AM
  13. crazigee's Avatar
    Z10 is awesome but the market ignored it.
    Z30 is infinitely better than the Z10, but the market ignored it (admittedly, the adverts were lacking)
    Q10 is amazing. Sold more than the Z10.
    Q5 is just as good. Still has more value than the Z10.
    See, I don't think any of those were a awesome devices, and that's the reason they were ignored by the market. They were ok, decent, devices. There was nothing about them that was spectacular from either a hardware or software perspective.

    Posted using my Z10 via CB10
    06-27-14 06:05 AM
  14. Shadowyugi's Avatar
    If there was nothing spectacular about them... What made you get your Z10? Why didn't you just stick to your old phone till something spectacular came along?
    06-27-14 06:11 AM
  15. crazigee's Avatar
    If there was nothing spectacular about them... What made you get your Z10? Why didn't you just stick to your old phone till something spectacular came along?
    I had a 9900 and wanted a touch device. I get a phone every year as part of my corporate deal.

    Don't get me wrong. I like my Z10. I like it a lot. Especially now that with 10.2.1 I can install most of the cool apps that my friends have. And I think that there are some features of the Z10 that are better than my brother's GS4 or my father's iPhone 5S.

    I just think that BlackBerry needs to release something spectacular that truly competes and that will show what they are capable of.

    Posted using my Z10 via CB10
    06-27-14 07:12 AM
  16. BroncoVAL's Avatar
    I honestly don't see some people being CEO of hardware companies based on this thread.

    It's like everybody believes the "Follow the sheep" method automatically = instant success.

    Z10 is awesome but the market ignored it.
    Z30 is infinitely better than the Z10, but the market ignored it (admittedly, the adverts were lacking)
    Q10 is amazing. Sold more than the Z10.
    Q5 is just as good. Still has more value than the Z10.
    BBOS7 users don't wanna change. They want the belt back.

    These users are numbered in their millions.

    What is the next obvious step?

    And then the passport. Very evidently a Niche device. How does the success of a company suddenly depend solely on this one niche device?
    The Passport may stay a niche device if price and advertising are not done properly.
    It would be a pity when you see where Blackberry comes from.
    I still admire how Blackberry managed to make the second generation of its new smartphones so boldly innovative (while the Classic aiming at bringing back legacy tool-belt addict users) .
    When you look at Apple and its first iteration from the original iphone to the plasticky 3G iphone, and compare them to the Q10 and its evolution into the Passport, that's innovation.
    The market needs that kind of stimulation as Android vs. iphone war is becoming boring, Blackberry can bring something new on the table and shake those two giants.
    If they succeed in convincing consumers that a keyboard isn't dumb as Steve Jobs thought, then they'll have so much more than a niche market to deal with.
    People need to get that keyboards can be smart too!
    And innovations regarding keyboard are only at the beginning, there's style the Lebedev style keyboard that would be awesome adapted to a phablet like the Passport!
    No more virtual keyboard on screen, the keys would change with the context and only appear when the device is turned on, we could easily get a standard keyboard lay-out back with alt and shift AND be modern too)
    06-27-14 08:08 AM
  17. gnirkatto's Avatar
    It's exactly the same. BlackBerry are "focusing" on keyboards again! That's what they did before and it was a disaster. Now they're doing it again but somehow expect a different result. Insanity.

    Posted using my Z10 via CB10
    Insanity: doing the same over and over again but expect a different result.

    BB now rolls out one device with a totally innovative keyboard, and a huge screen. And, another device, with the tool belt that many legacy users want, and a screen that is larger than all other keyboard devices that they have released in their history (except torch).

    I don't think that the definition of insanity applies here.
    Shadowyugi likes this.
    06-27-14 08:17 AM
  18. anon1727506's Avatar
    Insanity: doing the same over and over again but expect a different result.

    BB now rolls out one device with a totally innovative keyboard, and a huge screen. And, another device, with the tool belt that many legacy users want, and a screen that is larger than all other keyboard devices that they have released in their history (except torch).

    I don't think that the definition of insanity applies here.
    Existing user based is a big unknown right now.... 50 million, 40 million? Of those I imagine most are keyboard users. Chen now is only targeting 10 million users a year for profitability. So he is hoping that once those existing users switch they will want to stick with keyboard devices. Out of the 1 Billion smartphones being sold each year, 10 million (niche) of them being QWERTY devices doesn't sound unreasonable.....



    Of course how many people today buy TV's or computer monitors with 1x1 screen sizes?
    How many people can't type faster (or at least fast enough for their needs) on a virtual keyboard?

    We will know next March if the QWERTY design is dead or not (the Q10 and Q5 weren't the right devices). December's earning report will be too close to the Classic's release date, and BlackBerry will say the Passport wasn't meant for mainstream users and they never expected high volume from it.
    06-27-14 08:34 AM
  19. redlightblinking's Avatar
    I have no evidence? I'm sorry I must have missed the peer reviewed study you're quoting from. Lol.

    Posted using my Z10 via CB10
    I'm not quoting anything....and apparently neither are you. But keep avoiding the question.
    06-27-14 08:36 AM
  20. hemertwv's Avatar
    Why do they need a keyboard to view x-rays, photos, and blueprints?

    The idea that doctors and businessmen all want keywords is flawed. My ex-gf is a doctor and says that she mostly uses her phone to read emails not send them. When she isn't typing she needs the bigger screen. Same thing applies to businesses.

    Posted using my Z10 via CB10
    So this kind of response is flawed, you have talked to one doctor and know how all doctors operate, wrong. I work for a very large world class health organization, Doctors are now required to enter Orders on the systems, to view clinical notes, approve a multitude of things, use the camera to scan barcodes is a single example.

    I am not saying the passport is the right solution but there are large number of people that still want a hw keyboard whether you believe it or not.
    06-27-14 08:41 AM
  21. redlightblinking's Avatar
    It's exactly the same.

    Posted using my Z10 via CB10
    It's not exactly the same because they didn't actually say now what you pointed out they apparenlty stated out loud.......then. That's how it's different. They "dismissed" it then......not now.

    IBlackBerry are "focusing" on keyboards again!

    Posted using my Z10 via CB10
    Interesting logic. You're claim presumes that they once "focused on keyboards", then stopped focussing on keyboards for some period of time, then at some point decided to change course again and "focus" on keyboards. Please explain when they stopped focusing on keyboards (and exactly how you come to that conclusion) and then when they resumed their focus on keyboards. Otherwise, you can't say they are focusing on keyboards "again"......they've always focused on keyboards.

    That's what they did before and it was a disaster.

    Posted using my Z10 via CB10
    Say what? The owned the smart phone market when they only had keyboard phones. It wasn't a disaster. The disaster was....as you pointed out.....several years back when they dismissed the iPhone and were so late to introduce another product (for the NEW market Apple was creating) in addition to the phones they already made that served another market.

    Now they're doing it again but somehow expect a different result. Insanity.

    Posted using my Z10 via CB10
    Once again, you must show how you can say they are doing something "again". They've never stopped making keyboard phones, and you haven't shown how simply continuing to offer that option (even though it's the highest selling product they have) is a disaster for them. The "disaster" is not ALSO creating something that takes on Iphone and goes for that new market that Apple literally created from scratch.
    06-27-14 08:44 AM
  22. CanuckBB's Avatar
    Absolutely right. That's why so many companies are moving away from BlackBerry. Despite the better security BlackBerry offers so many are moving to the iPhone because their employees don't want two phones. They want one touch device.

    Posted using my Z10 via CB10
    And even the "better security" is eroding fast for most companies. Other phones make a SSL connection to Exchange servers. Exchange as some MDM functionality OOTB. We have a dozen 9900s here with BESX. BESX offers no greater functionality than an AS connection. Our hardware is coming up for upgrade, and while not decided on what we will deploy, we know it won't be BB.
    06-27-14 10:10 AM
  23. redlightblinking's Avatar
    And even the "better security" is eroding fast for most companies. Other phones make a SSL connection to Exchange servers. Exchange as some MDM functionality OOTB. We have a dozen 9900s here with BESX. BESX offers no greater functionality than an AS connection. Our hardware is coming up for upgrade, and while not decided on what we will deploy, we know it won't be BB.
    Just curious, why is that?
    06-27-14 10:38 AM
  24. Irish Blues's Avatar
    It's exactly the same. BlackBerry are "focusing" on keyboards again! That's what they did before and it was a disaster. Now they're doing it again but somehow expect a different result. Insanity.
    Let's not pretend that Chen made the decision on what to build for a phone on his own, without any feedback from anyone else (especially past BB users who went to another device). No, the phones aren't going to appeal to everyone - just like the [iPhone __, SGSX, Droid ___, HTC ___, ... insert whatever device you can think of here] isn't going to appeal to every person - but progress starts with winning the core users back.

    I just think that BlackBerry needs to release something spectacular that truly competes and that will show what they are capable of.
    This question has been asked before in other forms and largely ignored every time - but I'll lob it out yet again: what in your opinion would constitute "something spectacular that truly competes and that will show what they are capable of?" Maybe more importantly, once you define that, how much should that device cost? BlackBerry could come up with the world's greatest handheld device - something that would be 3 years ahead of everyone else - but if it costs $1000 to produce, how likely do you think it is that the market would embrace it?
    06-27-14 10:47 AM
  25. CanuckBB's Avatar
    Just curious, why is that?
    Because BB brings nothing to the table. If we were to move to BB10, we'd ditch the BES and use AS. No different than iOS or Android. What is the compelling reason to stay with BB?
    06-27-14 11:03 AM
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