06-18-13 11:27 AM
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  1. eddy_berry's Avatar
    Uhh the iPhone 4, an almost 2-y old phone, is actually bigger than the iPhone 5... FYI there is one such BB already, it's called Z10.
    Huh? You're making even less sense now - a 3.5" 640x960 display? WTH are you trying to say, seriously?
    And don't be hostile because you are struggling to properly express your thoughts... why don't you just say what you want to see from BB, eg "smaller screen would suffice for a Z5"...?
    You look like the one getting hostile. If you don't understand Dirtymike14s post as a smaller screen at least be an adult about it. You can see his signature. He has a Z10. He knows it exists. and it is nothing like an iPhone 4 or 5. He does want something with a smaller screen. I'm sure it would need to incorporate the proper resolution but what he was saying is that Z5 should be to the Z10 what the iPhone 4s is to an iPhone 5. Only difference being it would be newer than Z10 and marketed to a different audience. He just expressed it in fewer words.

    Sure they could make a Z5...but then it would just be an iPhone. ;D

    Posted via CB10 on a Z10
    lol. iPhones don't have BB10 so your point is somewhat invalid. But i get you. Any phone lower in quality to the Z10 would just be another iPhone. Hehe.
    Dirtymike14 likes this.
    05-17-13 03:39 PM
  2. Dirtymike14's Avatar
    Huh? You're making even less sense now - a 3.5" 640x960 display? WTH are you trying to say, seriously?
    And don't be hostile because you are struggling to properly express your thoughts... why don't you just say what you want to see from BB, eg "smaller screen would suffice for a Z5"...?
    Did it really take you that long to figure out what I was trying to say? You must be an iphone user...

    My z10 is a Leafs fan
    05-17-13 04:48 PM
  3. Bbnivende's Avatar
    I believe they released the Q5 first because they target with it the heavy-texting users in developing countries. BlackBerry users in these countries prefer a physical keyboard over a full touch device because they use the phone mainly for messaging (traditionally, it was cheaper for them to comunicate in this way), and this is the very reason they buy BlackBerry .

    So it makes sense to release the Q5 first and leave the (hypothetical) Z5 for a later date, after BB10 has established itself on the market.
    Not really ... They only used QWERTY phone because that is what came with BBM and a low cost data plan. The Indonesians are not the one country in the World that likes QWERTY phones better than touch phones.

    BB had a nearly 50% of the Indonesian market at one time but Android phones have taken over the emerging countries markets. In some ways BB is in the same position in Indonesia/Nigeria that they were in the USA before their great fall from grace. Can the Q5 stop the fall ? Probably not because they do not need BBM to the extent they used to and who doesn't prefer a larger screen to a 3 inch screen at the same price point.
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    05-17-13 10:15 PM
  4. Dave Bourque's Avatar
    I don't believe we will ever see a Z5, considering how some android users think the Z10 is already low spec... we will see a phablet variant of the Z10 though.

    Posted via CB10
    DatMisterB likes this.
    05-18-13 10:36 AM
  5. Bbnivende's Avatar
    I don't believe we will ever see a Z5, considering how some android users think the Z10 is already low spec... we will see a phablet variant of the Z10 though.

    Posted via CB10
    Only Android users in markets like the USA and Canada think that way. In Indonesia, India, Brazil and Nigeria sales of low spec Android devices are selling well.
    05-18-13 05:36 PM
  6. Skeevecr's Avatar
    I don't believe we will ever see a Z5, considering how some android users think the Z10 is already low spec... we will see a phablet variant of the Z10 though.
    While it may not end up being called a z5, I think it is inevitable that we will see a cheaper all-touch model rather than the z10 stepping in to occupy that space because there are areas where they can reduce specs in time as the os becomes more optimised such as a slower cpu or a little less memory along with going for a cheaper display.
    05-19-13 07:28 AM
  7. Dave Bourque's Avatar
    While it may not end up being called a z5, I think it is inevitable that we will see a cheaper all-touch model rather than the z10 stepping in to occupy that space because there are areas where they can reduce specs in time as the os becomes more optimised such as a slower cpu or a little less memory along with going for a cheaper display.
    But even the Q5 contains 2gb of memory

    Posted via CB10
    05-19-13 01:20 PM
  8. Plazmic Flame's Avatar
    This would make zero sense, I think, it would only further dilute the brand, wouldn't help at all.
    Instead BB should hurry up and bring out the 'Z15', the 5" (1080p, quad-core, wireless charger etc) big bro of Z10, apparently already in testing, ASAP...
    I would like a Q15!
    05-19-13 05:28 PM
  9. Skeevecr's Avatar
    But even the Q5 contains 2gb of memory
    Probably for simplifying development and reducing time to market, the next lower end models will be built from the ground up to aim at that part of the market rather than this one which seems to be more cutting down a q10 as much as possible while not delaying the product.
    05-20-13 11:10 AM
  10. szlevi's Avatar
    Probably for simplifying development and reducing time to market, the next lower end models will be built from the ground up to aim at that part of the market rather than this one which seems to be more cutting down a q10 as much as possible while not delaying the product.
    This would make zero sense - memory is dirt cheap and it is crucial for fluid, responsive UI especially when you allow up to 8 apps running simultaneously; BB would be absolutely crazy to cut the memory and compromise UX instead of downgrading less important, more expensive things like physical appearance (chassis/keyboard), bundled accessories etc, things that more price-conscious customers already expect.
    05-20-13 11:24 AM
  11. SHADOW's Avatar
    Hey I already have a thread for this

    Posted via CB10
    05-20-13 12:53 PM
  12. Skeevecr's Avatar
    This would make zero sense - memory is dirt cheap and it is crucial for fluid, responsive UI especially when you allow up to 8 apps running simultaneously; BB would be absolutely crazy to cut the memory and compromise UX instead of downgrading less important, more expensive things like physical appearance (chassis/keyboard), bundled accessories etc, things that more price-conscious customers already expect.
    I think you are overestimating the costs of the things you mention, in a smartphone the main costs are:

    Display
    Memory
    Processor
    Storage

    The more they can cut costs in these areas and the more flexibility you have in pricing a low-end model.

    In a hypothetical z5 they could go with the following and save a lot compared with a z10:

    4.5" 720p - more mainstream size and cheaper than the display in the z10 in bulk
    1.5GB - more than enough to run bb10 comfortably while saving them a decent amount per phone
    1.2GHz S4 - seems to be sufficient in the q5, possibly room for further reductions in spec for all we know
    8GB - reasonable amount of space for the os and 3rd party apps, the sd card covers them for media
    05-20-13 05:56 PM
  13. szlevi's Avatar
    You realize the hardware you list are actually a (Qualcomm-made) SoC platform, not some PC-like modular system...? The only variations you can choose from are the ones Qualcomm offers (and I already assume BB is a big enough customer to get a customized version of a platform) - and they are pretty cheap, probably around $100 at BB's volume. The only real option here is the display but again, there's not much price difference between 1280x720 and, say 1024x600 but it would immediately create an uber mess for application/developer support...
    Storage space reduction makes sense, I agree, 8GB is more than enough for an entry level device.
    I mean you can save some money by switching to an older/slower Snapdragon platform eg 1GHz dual core but the memory is a critical thing for the OS, just like with the display going from 2GB to 1GB RAM it's next to nothing price difference but could be severely damaging for UX (thus for the brand.)
    The most effective cost cutting is everywhere together but I think chassis, accessories, included warranty, support etc is the easiest way, with little tradeoff (again, your prospective buyer already ruled out more expensive premium builds.)
    Other thing is your profit rate, it will be lower here so all things combined you can shave off between $100-200 by going with 8GB storage, fully plastic casing, leaving out SD card, earbuds/mic, reducing warranty period etc etc.
    Bbnivende likes this.
    05-21-13 12:32 PM
  14. Skeevecr's Avatar
    You realize the hardware you list are actually a (Qualcomm-made) SoC platform, not some PC-like modular system...? The only variations you can choose from are the ones Qualcomm offers (and I already assume BB is a big enough customer to get a customized version of a platform) - and they are pretty cheap, probably around $100 at BB's volume. The only real option here is the display but again, there's not much price difference between 1280x720 and, say 1024x600 but it would immediately create an uber mess for application/developer support...
    You are missing my point about the SoC, currently the one in the q5 is just a downclocked version of the one in the q10 and most of the z10's, whereas with more development time they would have time to further optimise performance and choose one of the lower end dualcore offerings from qualcomm instead.

    As far as the display, did you miss the point where I explained where they would make savings while sticking with 720p, they would move to a more mainstream size of 4.5" for it, which is already cheaper than a higer ppi 4.2" model now let alone in 6-9 months when we are most likely to see a lower end all-touch show up, I never mentioned dropping the resolution precisely because it is not necessary and would cause problems.

    I mean you can save some money by switching to an older/slower Snapdragon platform eg 1GHz dual core but the memory is a critical thing for the OS, just like with the display going from 2GB to 1GB RAM it's next to nothing price difference but could be severely damaging for UX (thus for the brand.)
    I never mentioned moving to an older one, the most likely candidate for them to move to for a lower end model would be a lower-end version of one of the chipsets introduced after the s4 and as far as the memory, I specifically mentioned going to 1.5gb and not 1gb to avoid impacting the overall ux and while you may not think the saving would be worth doing, the actual main ram is more expensive than you would think and also think about scaling that saving over millions of handsets, that is exactly the kind of thing they would want to do when not pushed for time like they were with the q5.

    The most effective cost cutting is everywhere together but I think chassis, accessories, included warranty, support etc is the easiest way, with little tradeoff (again, your prospective buyer already ruled out more expensive premium builds.)
    Other thing is your profit rate, it will be lower here so all things combined you can shave off between $100-200 by going with 8GB storage, fully plastic casing, leaving out SD card, earbuds/mic, reducing warranty period etc etc.
    Your ideas mention things that were already the case with the z10 such as the casing and reducing included accessories and as far as the warranty period, most of the time that will be dictated by legal requirements in the particular country where the phone is sold and they will not provide more than the minimum required so there is no room to make any savings there at all and the idea that your negligble changes from a z10 to this hypothetical z5 would amount to even $100 is laughable, but feel free to compare our guesses when they eventually release a lower end all-touch model to see who was closer.
    05-22-13 03:59 AM
  15. szlevi's Avatar
    I give up at this point - you don't even try to grasp/answer my points, you are simply replying to your strawman arguments...

    ...but this hilarious thing do merit a quote so you cannot change it later:

    your negligble changes from a z10 to this hypothetical z5 would amount to even $100 is laughable, but feel free to compare our guesses when they eventually release a lower end all-touch model to see who was closer.
    So let me get this straight: you just called my guesstimate of the changes made in Q5 (or a supposed Z5) resulting in being $100-200 cheaper than Q10 (or Z10), its premium version, laughable and you said we will see if that's the case, right?

    As kids say nowadays: challenge accepted, I'd bet anything that Q5 will be at least $100 less than Q10 but most likely closer to $200 less (or possibly even more.)
    05-22-13 11:55 AM
  16. Skeevecr's Avatar
    So let me get this straight: you just called my guesstimate of the changes made in Q5 (or a supposed Z5) resulting in being $100-200 cheaper than Q10 (or Z10), its premium version, laughable and you said we will see if that's the case, right?

    As kids say nowadays: challenge accepted, I'd bet anything that Q5 will be at least $100 less than Q10 but most likely closer to $200 less (or possibly even more.)
    Nice shifting of the goalposts there, the topic is about a hypothetical z5 and how they would be able to cut costs to make one of those viable rather than the getting to the q5 from a starting point of the q10 and given you made a comment about the only option they would have with the display you were fully aware of that point even if you try to dodge out of it now.
    05-22-13 02:03 PM
  17. szlevi's Avatar
    Nice shifting of the goalposts there, the topic is about a hypothetical z5 and how they would be able to cut costs to make one of those viable rather than the getting to the q5 from a starting point of the q10 and given you made a comment about the only option they would have with the display you were fully aware of that point even if you try to dodge out of it now.
    Again, you are arguing with your strawman BS because of
    Option A your inability to follow the most basic logical thread of a discussion
    Option B you are unable to admit your point now does not make sense.

    FYI due to the lack of information about mfr cost any cost cutting discussion about price reduction effect only makes sense in the retail pricing context.
    If this is something new to you then I (and probably nobody else sane person) cannot help you.

    Anyhow so are you up for a bet or you're backing out now, as I expected...?
    05-22-13 04:25 PM
  18. Skeevecr's Avatar
    Again, you are arguing with your strawman BS because of
    Option A your inability to follow the most basic logical thread of a discussion
    Option B you are unable to admit your point now does not make sense.
    You are the one who has randomly decided that a discussion about a hypothetical z5 should be settled by a bet about the pricing of the q5 which has little to nothing to do with a potential z5 so perhaps you are the one that needs to go back and try to follow the thread.

    Subtle hint for you, when the title of the thread is "Were the heck is the Z5 ?" it is not a thread about the q5.
    05-23-13 06:04 AM
  19. szlevi's Avatar
    No, it's the same thing because it's about cost reduction, I'm just using Q5 as an example. FYI you were pushing that clueless idea that reducing onboard memory is a big difference - it is clearly not expensive at all, everbody knows it, let alone the adverse effects on UX etc.

    So you chickened out. It's fine but stop spinning it.

    Sent from my LT30p using CB Forums mobile app
    05-23-13 08:45 AM
  20. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    That's my point, they don't even have to develop a Z5 when they have to have a high-end model out ASAP, by mid-Summer anyway, along with the release of v10.2 with Android 4.2.2 support - it would make perfect sense to release a 1080p Z15 and simply mark down the 720p Z10, effectively pushing it down to the upper-mid tier, just like all other mfrs do after 4-6 months.
    This would also give them breathing space in the hardware race and steady revenues until Christmas - and by the end of the year they should release either refreshed models or at least a big OS update release eg v11 with plenty of new things, to keep up the momentum...
    Again as an Android user the 4.2.2 upgrade alone would give me confidence to seriously consider BB but if it comes with a better (1080p) hardware option then it would surely make me switch immediately.
    I actually wrote something similar in another thread:

    I really hope that they have become wise enough, to go with that 1080p display in the new flagship device.

    The resolution from the Z10, and its apps, should be scalable easily enough, on a 1080p screen.

    I also think, that it is not asked too much from a dev, to support one standard resolution more.
    A dev who is already featured in BlackBerry World, has a first to market advantage, compared to his competition. For being a big fish, in a small pond, this surely isn't asked too much.

    The only reason why BlackBerry has to go with that display, is feature parity with the competition.
    The reason why BlackBerry fell behind so much, is that they ignored trends.
    They do not have the luxury, to already ignore them again, and go with much weaker hardware.

    In an ideal scenario, all of the Android manufacturers will slowly go with 1080p models this year, for the high-end, and Apple introduces an iPhone5s, with the same resolution as the 5.
    If this happens, BlackBerry actually has an edge on the iPhone with specs, and an edge on Android with the better experience.

    If BlackBerry misses that opportunity, this would be catastrophic.
    Because the only uncertainty in my scenario, is the iPhone5s. If they up the screen size and/or resolution, BlackBerry would lag behind, with the screens they have in their flagship models
    This is unacceptable, from a strategic point of view.

    Another reason for upping the screen specs, is that BBRY now has the opportunity to place the Z10 as an slightly above mid-range device, and introduce the future Z5 (or what ever the name will be) as the low/mid-range device.
    Like that you would have an instant possibility for market penetration in every segment.
    ^
    For that strategy a Z5 is a must.
    I also wrote in the "BlackBerry Live: what we didn't get" thread, that I elated to see a Z5 alongside of the Q5, because a touchscreen device just has more impact on the average user.

    I hope that they show us that device soon.

    Posted via CB10
    szlevi likes this.
    05-23-13 09:30 AM
  21. Bbnivende's Avatar
    1. How do I change Were to Where in the title ??

    2. On 1080P
    "Speaking to Techradar at the BlackBerry Live conference in Orlando, Florida, Mallick said that currently the phone-maker is trying to ensure display resolutions are consistent across its range of devices to make app development as easy as possible.


    ‘We announced last fall that for at least the next year our plan is to stay with the same resolutions on our two form factors, all touch and QWERTY touch, to give developers the confidence and consistency to leverage their investments,’ he said."

    Interesting take on the value of 1080P ...

    1080p smartphones: Dr. Raymond Soneira breaks down display myth | BGR
    05-23-13 03:35 PM
  22. magtheridon2000's Avatar
    Still, even reading that article, and knowing "BlackBerry is about experience not specs, to have only 720p de vices while all flagships and phones will soon be 1080p is bad strategically, as said above...

    Will all 720x1280 be scalable? Will it be ugly? Hmm

    Posted via CB10
    05-23-13 07:33 PM
  23. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    1. How do I change Were to Where in the title ??

    2. On 1080P
    "Speaking to Techradar at the BlackBerry Live conference in Orlando, Florida, Mallick said that currently the phone-maker is trying to ensure display resolutions are consistent across its range of devices to make app development as easy as possible.


    We announced last fall that for at least the next year our plan is to stay with the same resolutions on our two form factors, all touch and QWERTY touch, to give developers the confidence and consistency to leverage their investments, he said."

    Interesting take on the value of 1080P ...

    1080p smartphones: Dr. Raymond Soneira breaks down display myth | BGR
    1) PM a MOD.

    2) What he said +

    Still, even reading that article, and knowing "BlackBerry is about experience not specs, to have only 720p de vices while all flagships and phones will soon be 1080p is bad strategically, as said above...

    Will all 720x1280 be scalable? Will it be ugly? Hmm

    Posted via CB10
    + I just read the article from BGR and as a big fan of ArsTechnica I also know their take of it.

    That most people will not see a big difference, is not the point here.

    The point is, when 7 different manufacturers use a 1080p screen for the flagship devices and only BlackBerry refrains from doing it, we are back in the old RIM paradigm, of not going with the times.

    I know the statements made about the screen resolution to devs by BlackBerry, but it is time to change that doctrine for the greater good.
    BBRY can't be competitif through the ignoring of market trends.
    It is worth every single disgruntled developer, if the handset is at least competitif.
    Ignoring market trends, marked the downfall of BlackBerry. And the competition is one development cycle (on the hardware side) ahead, compared to BlackBerry.

    Just on the hardware side, the flagship devices of the direct competition either have a 1080p screen, a Quadcore (or even an eighth core processor as in big.LITTLE), a GPU with a lot more power and/or a metal chassis (except the Samsung S4).
    The Z10 was delayed and should have had launched in a way, that it does not compete with the S4/Htc One/Lumia 928/iPhone 5s so soon.

    What ever happened, happened though, and here we are now.
    A moment in time, where BlackBerry does not have the luxury of ignoring the competition. They must be one step ahead. For me, BB10 is already better on the experience front.
    But Hardware wise, they lag behind one generation now.

    A 1080p screen is a must on the high-end now, and if they launch the Aristo without it, it's a sign that BBRY hasn't understood one thing, about their demise.
    From a strategic point of view, to launch the Z5 as the low/mid-end device compared to the Z10, it means that the High-end must have far better specs. If not the difference between these 3 tiers isn't apparent for the consumer.
    The consumer equals buzzwords like: quadcore, 1080p, big screen, metal frame and iPhone with quality.

    BBRY should make a nice speech to the dev community why 1080p must be supported now as well, but without a compelling high-end device, BlackBerry can't compete fully against its competitors. It is time to revert the screen resolution guidelines.
    For the sake of a Z5

    Posted via CB10
    szlevi likes this.
    05-23-13 11:26 PM
  24. Skeevecr's Avatar
    No, it's the same thing because it's about cost reduction, I'm just using Q5 as an example. FYI you were pushing that clueless idea that reducing onboard memory is a big difference - it is clearly not expensive at all, everbody knows it, let alone the adverse effects on UX etc.

    So you chickened out. It's fine but stop spinning it.
    You can't simply switch to using the q5 because compared with a q10 it has far more areas where they can cut costs when it comes to the display and particularly the materials compared with going from a z10 to the hypothetical z5 that this topic has always been about, the z10 is already an lcd display so they cannot save money in that area other than a little by switching to a more mainstream size such as 4.5" than the high ppi 4.2" display and they cannot save a lot on the casing of a z10 since it is already using cheaper materials than a q10 which means that no z5 is viable at this time and will have to wait until they are able to cut specs further.

    So no chickening out on my part, just no interest in agreeing to change the comparison to one that is unrealistic due to the differences between a q10 and a z10 that allowed enough costs to be reduced to make a q5 now, but not a z5.
    05-24-13 02:54 AM
  25. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    You can't simply switch to using the q5 because compared with a q10 it has far more areas where they can cut costs when it comes to the display and particularly the materials compared with going from a z10 to the hypothetical z5 that this topic has always been about, the z10 is already an lcd display so they cannot save money in that area other than a little by switching to a more mainstream size such as 4.5" than the high ppi 4.2" display and they cannot save a lot on the casing of a z10 since it is already using cheaper materials than a q10 which means that no z5 is viable at this time and will have to wait until they are able to cut specs further.

    So no chickening out on my part, just no interest in agreeing to change the comparison to one that is unrealistic due to the differences between a q10 and a z10 that allowed enough costs to be reduced to make a q5 now, but not a z5.
    Apart from the fact, that you apparently not know what you are talking about:
    You do know that a certain part of the cost cutting can just be made on the margins taken by BBRY, without changing anything, right?

    Please tell me how Nokia did it with the Lumia 520 (yes the screen is worse, but that doesn't make a difference of 50$ per screen compared to the Z10's screen).
    This phone is as low end as it can get, without entering Android territory.
    I do not advocate for BlackBerry to go down that route, to make the phone *that cheap*, but a low/mid-entry device is needed and easy to produce.

    Nokia 520 reviews:

    http://www.techradar.com/reviews/pho...1133192/review

    http://tech.uk.msn.com/mobiles/nokia...s-phone-review

    http://www.engadget.com/2013/04/26/n...ia-520-review/

    Posted via CB10
    szlevi likes this.
    05-24-13 03:07 AM
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