1. EchoTango's Avatar
    I've been watching the traffic regarding QNX, with folks saying how great it is, how it will save RIM and the utility of the OS. I know it's in cars, nuclear power plants and all sorts of exotic places. Multi-core support is often touted as the main reason, but do users really care how many cores they are running (and consuming the battery) ?

    Looking at BB7 in relation to IOS and Android, it seems to me that it generally stacks up pretty well with these devices and is now (at least) on par with these other handsets OS's. I'm not seeing any major deficiencies, in fact it has arguably more function once you add the traditional BB services like BES, BIS and BBM. New technologies like NFC and bar codes are coming, but these already run on OS7.

    So my question is; what is QNX going to add to the features/functions that isn't there today that can't be enabled using the OS7 or it's future iterations ? What's the "wiz bang" application(s) that QNX is going to facilitate ?
    08-07-11 09:43 AM
  2. kjmenzel's Avatar
    Well, judging from comments on this site, there are at least a few people who put a lot of stock on how many cores their phone has, and there are probably enough consumers that, knowing little, would compare that as a metric for how good a phone is.

    If the API is better for QNX, then developers will be able to do cooler things. I think that'll be the main difference... as it seems (from the Playbook apps so far released) that the API has allowed app creators to make the pretty apps that look nice AND do stuff. Some of that might be possible on the OS7 devices though (I'd imagine a lot of that has to do with having a dedicated GPU, and if I'm not mistaken the OS7 devices finally have one, don't they??)
    MetalxAssassinx and mithrazor like this.
    08-07-11 10:10 AM
  3. meske's Avatar
    Yeah, I think QNX is more familiar with devs, as its a unix base (aka android).

    BBOS was built for secure messaging and running java apps, but it was more centered to "business apps" that typically do not have great graphics/processor needs. To compete in the consumer world, people want a device that can do it all. BBOS 6 and 7 do a good job, but the OS was not originally designed for it, and therefor you run into limitations.

    Just like RIM was knocking Apple for not having a "true multi tasking OS" and stating that QNX was built from the ground up with that in mind, same goes for iOS / Android compared to BBOS - the iOS and Android OS's were built to do gaming/computing/data well, and security and multi-tasking were built in later.

    Compare this approach to Microsoft. They were one of the first to have a graphical / touch UI on their phones. Problem was, they built an ecosystem that they could not easily upgrade to without requiring developers to go back to the drawing board on their apps. But, they made the decision that they were going to fail absolutely without making that change, hence WP7. Now they've got a new base to build on that should last them years.
    08-07-11 10:18 AM
  4. southlander's Avatar
    RIM has implied it is better because they are moving everything in that direction. Other than that, I have seen very little on here from experts about the actual technical reasons QNX will enable new features that are not possible now on the Java ME based OS. It is "common" knowledge that QNX is very efficient, stable, can scale and all that. But that is nothing specific.

    The PlayBook is currently all the hard evidence we have on what RIM can make a QNX based OS do.

    In fact, while I love the PlayBook I would have some questions about it (for RIM) that will go unanswered. For example why is memory footprint so large for the base OS? So then if the answer is -- because it needs to be -- I would wonder about the new QNX phones as well.
    Last edited by southlander; 08-07-11 at 10:43 AM.
    08-07-11 10:22 AM
  5. the_sleuth's Avatar
    Blackberry Tablet OS (or QNX OS) means more APIs and more tools for developers, such as WebWorks, Adobe Air, and soon, a new Native Development Kit.

    These tools level the competitive landscape with iOS and Android. In the next 18 months, there are going to be some great apps developed for Blackberry Tablet OS and QNX OS in general.
    08-07-11 11:03 AM
  6. southlander's Avatar
    Blackberry Tablet OS (or QNX OS) means more APIs and more tools for developers, such as WebWorks, Adobe Air, and soon, a new Native Development Kit.

    These tools level the competitive landscape with iOS and Android. In the next 18 months, there are going to be some great apps developed for Blackberry Tablet OS and QNX OS in general.
    So then part of its superiority is just the fact that it allowed RIM to include more modern tools for development, then?
    08-07-11 11:06 AM
  7. EchoTango's Avatar
    Just to "nudge" the discussion......I think we should focus on comparing OS7 and QNX which has liquid graphics, better screen displays and improved web browsing.

    Again what's coming that QNX will enable, other than better SDK, which of course is important. I suspect it may have something to do with "machine virtualization" where the QNX OS can emulate Android or even (heaven forbid !) IOS. This then allows access the app catalogs for either platform.

    Wouldn't that be interresting.......
    Last edited by EchoTango; 09-08-11 at 01:10 PM.
    08-07-11 12:12 PM
  8. donpeppino9's Avatar
    BBOS doesn't have the ability to allow apps to be stored on anything but flash memory... at least RIM hasn't been able to. QNX fixes that. more app storage will allow developers to make better apps that require more memory.
    08-07-11 05:46 PM
  9. Umm Yeah's Avatar
    Everyone above has stated quite nicely why RIM has decided to move to QNX but they haven't addressed why consumers and BB fanboys are clamoring for the QNX based BBs.

    Quite frankly, it is because RIM has said that going forward, all BB's will be running QNX. That means that all of those who want to stay with BB don't want to buy the last version of the outgoing OS because it will have limited support. Everyone wants to have the OS with a future and not an OS that is being orphaned.
    1425956 likes this.
    08-17-11 11:57 AM
  10. EchoTango's Avatar
    Since I started this thread, I've been learning more about QNX and I've come to the conclusion that QNX's most important new feature is symmetrical multi-processing (SMP).

    This opens up many possibilities for designing apps that can run in the background monitoring other applications while not impacting the main communications functions. Also it enables virtualization tasks to run in the background emulating Android or other technologies.

    Imagine watching a movie and taking a call or emailing all at the same time.
    09-08-11 01:18 PM
  11. FunktasticLucky's Avatar
    QNX is a pretty neat system actually. It can plug modules into it to expand it. The underlying kernal just starts the modules up as needed. No Reboot is necessary. It goes right in. It's also stable because if the module fails then the kernal has the ability to shut it down and restart it without crashing the entire system. whcih makes it nice for phones as well. Because now you can expand the kernal with things for phones and tablets with easy. no more Fully custom OS's. I think RIM will do great things once they finish their new devices to support QNX and I really believe they have a truely bright future.
    spike12 likes this.
    09-08-11 01:34 PM
  12. FourOhFour's Avatar
    In fact, while I love the PlayBook I would have some questions about it (for RIM) that will go unanswered. For example why is memory footprint so large for the base OS? So then if the answer is -- because it needs to be -- I would wonder about the new QNX phones as well.
    You could always check out memory usage on an idle Linux system running a GUI for comparison. Or heck.. install QNX on a desktop machine and see for yourself Let's just do some back-of-the-envelope calculations for fun...

    -graphics: ~1MPix main display, ~2MPix HDMI output @ 32-bit: 4/8MB per on-screen frame. Assuming double-buffering as a minimum, that's 8 or 16MB just to service the screen. If both video outputs active, 24MB. That's just the immediate display requirements. Expect multiple additional buffers required for each application, composited layer, including the navigator. Assume the navigator has at least 2 layers - background, foreground. etc. etc. etc. This memory will probably have to be reserved up front by the system.. say 32-64MB as per a typical graphical UI.

    -filesystem: expect caching to be enabled for the filesystem, let's say something like 8MB reserved for this. Could be more, could be less.

    -network: expect several MB to be reserved for buffering the network stack. say 8MB?

    -kernel structures: QNX is a microkernel OS, so not too much taken up by the kernel proper. Just process management, memory management, etc. Assuming 4KB memory pages, there are 262144 such pages to track. Depending on the details, assume at least 4MB (although this could be on-core MMU memory, not general purpose).

    -processes: Assume something like 16KB stack per process. Given QNX runs all it's drivers (filesystems, networking, usb, spi, i2c, dma, gps, accelerometers, bluetooth, bridge, timers, power management, touchscreen, audio, camera, samba, filesystems, etc.) as user processes and each of those processes has multiple threads, assume at least a few hundred threads on an idle system. This accounts for several more MB. (400 threads = 6+MB). That's before heap allocations, libraries, etc. Add many more MB (assume at least 16KB for libc alone, per process).

    -ram filesystems: temporary storage (non-flash) requires a ramdisk or similar. Assume a few MB there.

    -multimedia: let's assume some multimedia services are active in the background... audio I/O for system sounds (a meg or two), pre-load some video services (dozen megs?), camera drivers (dozen megs?)

    -adobe: assume adobe flash runtime environment is always running. Flash is a bit of a hog, but admittedly has a LOT of work to do. I'd expect 50+ MB here based on other platforms.

    The list goes on and on...

    Bear in mind that it's not necessarily a BAD THING to be using several hundred MB when a system is idle. In fact, to optimize for runtime performance, you're typically better served by consuming as much memory as possible up front in order to save on loading time later. This is the reasoning behind starting up common components like the Flash environment early and centralizing the memory footprint of common functions (like an audio mixer for example).
    09-08-11 09:18 PM
  13. ekafara's Avatar
    From what I understand Java is what causes the memory leak in the BB phones we use right now. So I'm thinking this will mean no more memory leak, so no more battery pulls that will make me pretty happy.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    09-09-11 06:03 AM
  14. 123berryaddicted's Avatar
    BBOS7 vs QNX:

    One thing is for sure. When the first QNX phone comes out, it more than likely will be missing many key bb features that your current bbOS has. QNX in the long run will be good, but its going to take some time for RIM to implement all those "blackberry" features that we've all come to love. Its been how long for the playbook OS tablet?? And we still don't have MOST features found on our bb handsets - don't expect much different for the Colt released.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    09-13-11 03:42 PM
  15. FunktasticLucky's Avatar
    What you seem to forget is that the colt doesn't release for another 6 or 7 months most likely. And the playbook is about to get a lot of those features that are missing. Also qnx is making all OS's the same. So the playbook and phone OS's will be have the same features as the tablet. Well besides adding the phone portion and things of that nature. The playbook has come a LONG way. And 2.0 is a huge step when it releases. So all that integrated email and app player should already be implemented in the OS. No more fully custom OS's for each device. I think people need to stop being so negative here.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    09-13-11 04:32 PM
  16. EchoTango's Avatar
    Without trying to unnecessarily prolong this thread's life, would developers or techies types agree that moving from Java to a QNX SDK makes the future BBerry devices more proprietary and less standards based ?

    I understand that Java is also "proprietary" but that it has become a defacto standard for application development.

    In the forthcoming battle with Microsoft, I'm thinking the level of "openness" will be a key factor in attracting developers to the QNX platform.
    Harley Kid likes this.
    12-05-11 12:32 PM
  17. Harley Kid's Avatar
    Yeah, I think QNX is more familiar with devs, as its a unix base (aka android).

    BBOS was built for secure messaging and running java apps, but it was more centered to "business apps" that typically do not have great graphics/processor needs. To compete in the consumer world, people want a device that can do it all. BBOS 6 and 7 do a good job, but the OS was not originally designed for it, and therefor you run into limitations.

    Just like RIM was knocking Apple for not having a "true multi tasking OS" and stating that QNX was built from the ground up with that in mind, same goes for iOS / Android compared to BBOS - the iOS and Android OS's were built to do gaming/computing/data well, and security and multi-tasking were built in later..
    I am a user of a 4G Android and have seen VERY little difference between my dual core processor and the speeds I had with my BB Bold. I have also fallen for the iOS hype and paid dearly for ETF cost. I anticipate the same speeds with the new QNX. If my app/document loads in three tenths of a second versus the normal five tenths, I dont believe the world will stop spinning. Having the information safe on a network/OS that is one of the most reliable (IMHO) rates higher on my personal interest scale that buying onto the troll hype about some cellular eden achieved by owning a "wonder device".
    I have a while to wait for the QNX and loof forward to making the decission between the new Torch or Bold.
    12-10-11 06:37 PM
  18. JackKennedy's Avatar
    I've been watching the traffic regarding QNX, with folks saying how great it is, how it will save RIM and the utility of the OS. I know it's in cars, nuclear power plants and all sorts of exotic places. Multi-core support is often touted as the main reason, but do users really care how many cores they are running (and consuming the battery) ?

    Looking at BB7 in relation to IOS and Android, it seems to me that it generally stacks up pretty well with these devices and is now (at least) on par with these other handsets OS's. I'm not seeing any major deficiencies, in fact it has arguably more function once you add the traditional BB services like BES, BIS and BBM. New technologies like NFC and bar codes are coming, but these already run on OS7.

    So my question is; what is QNX going to add to the features/functions that isn't there today that can't be enabled using the OS7 or it's future iterations ? What's the "wiz bang" application(s) that QNX is going to facilitate ?
    it leapfrogs the competitions and right into a volcano. They are taking away the trackpad, the shortcut buttons, making the devices inconveniently larger with no innovative design solution and blatantly rips off the design of every smartphone out there. The os will supposingly be smooth (at least after a few generations, if RIM will ever survive to see that) and graphically enhanced and not support any old BB apps developed for any older os versions. Oh, and you can probably play fancy games on it (though not the Xbox ones, playstation ones, and likely not the current Android and iPhone ones because no one will bother to write up an entire programme again)...
    12-12-11 07:57 AM
  19. Rello's Avatar
    ^^wow u are making a lot of assumptions for a device that isnt out right now. im assuming you've used it before?

    i love that people keep talking about it doesnt have a trackpad and how its kissing all the stuff BB's are known for. You guys dont think RIM has thought of this. They know exactly what their devices are known for and im sure they have thought about all this while developing the UI for these handheld devices.
    seattletom likes this.
    12-15-11 01:38 PM
  20. sleepngbear's Avatar
    it leapfrogs the competitions and right into a volcano. They are taking away the trackpad, the shortcut buttons, making the devices inconveniently larger with no innovative design solution and blatantly rips off the design of every smartphone out there. The os will supposingly be smooth (at least after a few generations, if RIM will ever survive to see that) and graphically enhanced and not support any old BB apps developed for any older os versions. Oh, and you can probably play fancy games on it (though not the Xbox ones, playstation ones, and likely not the current Android and iPhone ones because no one will bother to write up an entire programme again)...
    Wow, that's a whole lotta misinformation in one little post.

    If they eliminate the trackpad and/or physical buttons, don't you think they'll come up with a suitable touch-screen substitute?

    Have you looked at any of the myriad Android phones out now and still coming, every one of which being a copy of every slab phone that came before it, starting with the iPhone that started the whole slab thing?

    'Supposedly' smooth OS ... take a look at the PlayBook and see how supposedly smooth it is. Not talking about apps or features that are missing, just the smoothness and intuitiveness of the UI.

    And BB10 will very likely be able to run BB7 apps, and will also likely have the same Android emulation that is coming for the PlayBook.

    Anything else you care to take a blind stab at?
    Rello likes this.
    12-15-11 02:26 PM
  21. zolt11's Avatar
    Whats the big deal? Get a playbook and see how the screen looks, feels and how fluid it is. Zero hiccups, none that i have experienced . It blows my ipad out of the water in those areas, lacks in others (apps) but is my preferred tablet. Apps will come and then they will all be working on BB X also!!!
    12-16-11 07:16 PM
  22. HybridGT's Avatar
    QNX is apparently more reliable
    12-17-11 05:26 PM
  23. berryverybold's Avatar
    QNX is basically a UNIX RTOS, real time operating system (ie multitasking possible).

    Why build a new bespoke OS for every new appliance and test it on that specific appliance, it cost millions on testing and closing the security/bugs.

    This is why C, C+ then C++, then went to J+, J++ etc,

    Keeping to a standard FIRMWARE, OS-WARE, SOFTWARE apps makes now called WIDGET apps work across platforms. So good for software designers to recoup monies from MANY appliances and not just one besoke phone.

    Setting up a software gaming team say for the Xbox or PS3 or the new PSP cost huge money and what happens if the appliance does not sell and flops.

    I was looking at the 3DO contract before it came out, and setting up a team of developers, the contract to write software for the appliance was a nightmare, glad I did not sign it, and finally went a signed with a different manufacture to write software.

    The point is the end user does not care or get involved with the huge expense it cost to write and fill those bugs, Software is like a Hollywood film, it may flop (you lose you investment), to good and the appliance has not sold many - so you can sell enough of your software to recoup your investment.

    This is why standardisation became in the industry, hence Java and Flash became, and now due to IP6 HTML5 is becoming. If the appliance flops you can still sell enough software to port to another appliance, hence XBOX and PS3 software is one software which gets ported (converted) to the other appliance, all the appliance has to do is have the filter, in this case of example, JAVA / FLASH. ie Widgets.

    Making a OS, is a huge risk that's why Microsoft dominates, others have tried, the only challenges Microsoft is Linux Kernels, Linux is open, meaning all of us own it, it constantly evolves.

    RIM buying a OS off the shelf is cheaper, less risk and all they have to do is have a standard electronics module (one chip/IC); all addons are real-plug-and-play - like Linux built in to the current version of the Kernal, so any addons automactically get applied when the device switches on for the first time, finds its programmed in model number and searches itself to see what it self is and what is attached to itself (ie sub model) ; Most DVD(Bluray) and televisions/monitors are built this way. You can hack them and find electronics fitted inside the chips/IC's that have been turned off in that sub model. Companies do not make electronic models for every model, they either blow parts up/legs off or program into the firmware flags to turn them off. Hence FM radio upgrades on Apples and BB7.1. It is cheaper to blow parts up or software variables flag them in the firmware then making a chip/IC electronics with less features.

    So In that RIM are doing this is a good thing as software will proberly last longer between versions. ie when upgrading to OS12 some OS10 software may still run.

    Its a bit like Office97 working on XP.

    But Microsoft wanting you to buy Office 2003, but Office97 still works. So in Vista - Office 2007 is born and Office97 no longer strangely has a install problem, in that Microsoft say it is a compatibility issue in the technology in Vista and 7. But really letting Office97 load would mean lost Office2007 sales.

    ie, it is all about money, recoup investments, and profit.

    In all transfer upgrade compatibility in software, eventually it will not work due to money.

    The market for phones and televisions is being squeezed in UK, UK has the most phones per population per person. So how can they sell us a new one.........

    Compatibility then becomes a issue.

    Software companies have to recoup their investments of making say example "Angry Birds", that's why it is mulitplatform, and written in one Language, then complied to another platform via a filter, ie that appliance has to run a base language such as Java/Flash that becomes the appliance manufacturer problem not the Software developer.

    RIM in doing the World Tour for developers for BB10 phone10 is a swave move, getting the developers on their side and asking the developers "what do you want?" ; means "what do you want as default in the basic model ?", and then RIM guaranteeing a set plan of self life for their developed software, therefore the developer knows the risk is low in that they will then get their invested money back at some point.

    You have to remember the published figures for public eyes for the Microsoft XBOX ONE was $23 Million in the RED for Microsoft for making the XBOX. Also PS3 was very expensive to Sony and the PS4 is in the same position it proberly will not happen, PS4 is being developed on paper I believe, but I would say the XBOX 361 (elite HDMI version) and PS3 will be the last in the console would. Nintendo is thinking ahead with the Wii two and making the YOU "" and merger with the DS and the Wii, a console goes with you, so not a portable or a console, it is both.

    The mobile phone world is no different, it is a piece of electronic appliance a gadget, it is supposed to be a phone, but now the phone becomes a back seat and the 99% features are the phone and actually making a phone call is 1%, so audio quality is taking a back seat.

    With IP6 and 5G (FiVE G = full-WIFIMAX) becoming sometime in the future however long it will be - all calls will be IP6-VOIP / television will be IPTV (ie now called smart-tv boxes).

    In a nut shell technology cost money and somebody has to buy it.

    Having one main product and making others from it makes a better investment.

    Same product, different cases, (ie keyboards, TFT quality, speakers, sockets, touch screen, cell modules (2G3G4G5G GPS WIFI BT2 BT3 etc) - all made from one electronics chip/IC with the same firmware, and OS, just the model and sub models programmed in is different.

    Remember the home computer market mess in the 1980's and the VHS BETA Philips2000 tape war, and the averted DVD-cell modules (2G3G4G5G GPS WIFI BT2 BT3 etc)

    Remember the home computers mess in the 1980's and the VHS / Betamax / Philips2000 tape war and the averted HD and Blu-ray war.

    Goggle Android, OS here has a bit of a edge, being Linux and Chromium based it when perfected has a lot of miles.

    Hence where Nokia is losing the market to smart-phones and had to bring in the big gun Microsoft to bail out with a OS call Windows 7 touchscreen.... oh I mean Windows 8.























    Hence
    05-26-12 04:07 PM
  24. jedibeeftrix's Avatar
    So my question is; what is QNX going to add to the features/functions that isn't there today that can't be enabled using the OS7 or it's future iterations ? What's the "wiz bang" application(s) that QNX is going to facilitate ?
    primarily, because it is not a clunky old bag of balls like BB7.
    05-27-12 04:31 AM
  25. crackcookie's Avatar
    From my understanding it will level the playing field. OS7 looks nice but is still based on the old hour glass style.

    We should see the old goodness of RIM with the excitement of things RIM doesn't currently do well.
    05-28-12 09:47 PM
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