05-22-15 06:07 PM
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  1. CTU2fan's Avatar
    They did what? Release a high end all touch? If you're referring to the Leap as their high-end all touch, I'm sorry to tell you, but that's not what the Leap is intended for. It would be a downgrade to the Z30. It's a mid tier business-focused device made to be cost effective, not a high end all touch for consumers. Different devices for different purposes.

    Posted via CB10
    Honest question, even if BlackBerry made a highly spec'd all touch device tomorrow, could you honestly call it a high end all touch "for consumers" considering the app situation with BlackBerry? I don't see consumers buying a device in any significant number without many commonly used apps. And they can't sell a high-spec device cheaply, obviously.

    Posted via CB10
    05-14-15 10:03 AM
  2. birdman_38's Avatar
    I don't see consumers buying a device in any significant number without many commonly used apps.
    Same goes for enterprise customers.
    05-14-15 10:07 AM
  3. ljfong's Avatar
    Which is why people who are still on BB10 won't switch from BB10 to something else. You switched for apps. Not just because you thought your BB10 device wasn't powerful enough. You won't switch back to BB10 for 'power' because you didn't LEAVE for power in the first place.

    My point that wasn't made well was that people don't switch platforms because the flagship device on their preferred platform isn't powerful enough. They switch for apps or compatibility with friends or that they actually prefer that platform... people who switch from BB10 for those legitimate reasons don't switch back to BlackBerry because BlackBerry releases a powerful device but none of the other factors are different. Likewise, people happy on BB10 despite lack of apps etc. who have held out this long are not 'flight risks' to BlackBerry management because if they WERE, they would already be gone.
    Excellent points, however, a switch is a switch, be that for power or for ecosystem or for both. By switching to a new platform, I have to modify my typical daily workflow to conform to what the new platform offers. I love the hub workflow and full gesture-based UI offered by BB10 but I have gotten used to Android way of doing things now. People usually do not switch back for lack of very compelling reason to do so. BlackBerry knows very well that all those non-enterprise users the company lost is permanently lost to the competition and the company is working very hard right now to hold on to the enterprise users who are still staying, but once lost, will be most likely lost forever. Unfortunately BlackBerry cannot simply live off the purses of its true fans.
    05-14-15 02:23 PM
  4. lnichols's Avatar
    Sure people will post threats on CrackBerry to try to cajole BlackBerry into making a powerful full touch a priority (I doubt BlackBerry is actually paying attention to these forums very much at the moment) but I know and BlackBerry knows that they don't grow market share with full slab devices, only unique "BlackBerry" devices will grow their market share. And the risk of SHRINKING market share i.e. BB10 users switching to another platform because the Z30 isn't as powerful as the HTC One M9, is very low, so they are setting their priorities wisely, in terms of managing their business.

    What I don't understand is why they're not just taking the internals of an HTC One M9, adding in the BlackBerry bits and putting that device onto the market. The HTC One M8 is very similar component-wise to the Passport... so they just have to modify the FCC approved M9 components for their own device,and bob's yer uncle.

    BlackBerry shouldn't release a powerful full-touch device to keep from losing current BB10 users, or to grow market share: they should do it because a bunch of BB10 users have money in their pockets they want to spend and BlackBerry can get that money quickly if they release this device tomorrow.

    They should do a run of 100,000 devices and charge enough to make a decent profit on them, and only produce more to meet pent up demand.

    I honestly think BlackBerry should do something like kickstarter: get $200 deposit as a commitment from a bunch of customers, then produce the device and charge the kickstarter contributors $700 ($500 more), but the device is $800 retail.

    Posted via CB10
    Where are all the sales from the Classic and Passport? These niche devices you say are what they need, but clearly aren't doing anything. Haven't heard much on the Passport other than the first run, which was tinier than the the Z10's monthly production number sold out. We keep hearing that these devices are what people want, but the sales numbers and quarterly reports don't back it up.

    Posted via CB10
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    05-14-15 03:09 PM
  5. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Where are all the sales from the Classic and Passport? These niche devices you say are what they need, but clearly aren't doing anything. Haven't heard much on the Passport other than the first run, which was tinier than the the Z10's monthly production number sold out. We keep hearing that these devices are what people want, but the sales numbers and quarterly reports don't back it up.
    I don't have the foggiest idea what your point is, to be honest... that BB10 sales are hopelessly bad and there is no device form factor that will sell well?

    or maybe the current devices would sell well if they were market more aggressively?

    or that BlackBerry has to improve the carrier relationships so they have a higher profile in the retail channel?

    or that BlackBerry should incentivize carrier sales reps in the manner that Samsung and Apple do?

    any of those? All of them?
    05-14-15 05:35 PM
  6. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    What if the slider is a BlackBerry Android device preloaded with the BlackBerry Experience? Will you still buy it?
    I love sliders.
    I totally would.
    05-14-15 11:13 PM
  7. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    I don't have the foggiest idea what your point is, to be honest... that BB10 sales are hopelessly bad and there is no device form factor that will sell well?

    or maybe the current devices would sell well if they were market more aggressively?

    or that BlackBerry has to improve the carrier relationships so they have a higher profile in the retail channel?

    or that BlackBerry should incentivize carrier sales reps in the manner that Samsung and Apple do?

    any of those? All of them?
    Oh come on, you clearly understood what Inichols meant.

    You say that the niche devices are what's needed.
    Everybody being able to download the quarterly reports and follow Chen's/BlackBerry's statements would know that those niche devices don't sell enough.

    It's therefore quite strange, to advocate for a strategy that obviously does not work (selling niche devices in small numbers at a relatively small price point compared to the volume), while at the same time convicting the people who want a strategy which at least allows theoretical growth.

    All of the numbers we have seen until now, clearly show that the keyboard niche strategy is not successful and doesn't help to grow sale numbers.
    We have seen less QoQ and YoY shipments of BB10, since the first few quarters, just to give you an obvious example.

    You also still seem to block out the fact that there was a time (BBOS, around the iOS launch) in which BlackBerry had the lead in terms of apps, userbase, profits and what not.
    It was then, together with the Android launch, when we could witness that people vastly preferred the touchscreen, even though there were incredible bugs, no apps, bad displays, bad touch input, etc.

    It was also back then, when it became obvious that people prefer the touchscreen over the keyboard even within the same OS.
    Android, providing absolutely every form factor, made that clear as day.

    You are stuck in 2008 (considering your view/understanding of the cell phone market. A striking resemblence with BlackBerry and therefore even funnier, because there is a clear correlation between your market views and your phone choice), that's your problem.
    The war of keyboard vs touchscreen ended around 2009-2010. And the winner has over 99.8% marketshare today. It wasn't the keyboard though.

    How many Typos or similar keyboard accessories have been sold for iPhones over the years? Basically none, compared to the overall userbase.
    As far as I know, there are more jailbroken iPhones out there, than sold keyboard accessories.

    But all of that has already been said a thousand times.
    In the now, the market proves you wrong every single time when you say that people want keyboards or that the niche strategy works for BlackBerry.
    The past clearly shows that BlackBerry was the most successful, when they sold into every market segment, while also showing that people who really want a keyboard over other things, are 0.2% of the market.

    Your arguments are also nonsensical.
    Maybe people still like keyboards, but it's just not high on their priority list...
    In that case, the thought itself is already useless, because there simply isn't a phone out there with a 5 inch screen and a keyboard attached to it, that you would be able to use (not even talking about storing such a device). Even if such a phone existed, who would want such a monstrosity? (no, sliders do not count. The only thing failing more than a keyboard phone, is a slider, in terms of market share. This is a trend over the last 9 years).

    Therefore, your thought experiment might be a funny pastime, but the outcome is basically worthless, considering the constraints of your comparison. The only thing unscientific here, is your way of wanting to make keyboards look attractive.

    It should also be of note, that Samsung produces absolutely everything, as long as they see a market for it. The OG Note and their 40 phones a year policy (at least up until now) clearly show that.
    If anyone would be interested in a 5 inched keyboarded monstrosity with apps, Samsung would make such a device. And if it's not Samsung, then another one of the 100 Android manufacturers out there.
    When absolutely nobody pursuis small or big keyboarded devices, take it for granted that market research and focus groups have clearly shown that there is no worth in such a device.
    Last edited by MarsupilamiX; 05-15-15 at 04:05 PM.
    theone06 likes this.
    05-15-15 12:02 AM
  8. BBd00d's Avatar
    To be fair the thread title does not mention anything of it being high-end, just an all touch.

    Posted via the CB10 App on my Z10
    I stand corrected on that, assuming people were wanting a high end full touch as a mid tier all touch just came out.

    Posted via CB10
    05-15-15 05:19 AM
  9. BBd00d's Avatar
    Honest question, even if BlackBerry made a highly spec'd all touch device tomorrow, could you honestly call it a high end all touch "for consumers" considering the app situation with BlackBerry? I don't see consumers buying a device in any significant number without many commonly used apps. And they can't sell a high-spec device cheaply, obviously.

    Posted via CB10
    I agree with you 100% there, which is why all over these forums I've suggested that it's not their priority. There might be a market for high end all touch, but it's a small one. They are not focused on consumers at all, they've even stated that, yet so many here don't get it that when Z10 and Z30 came out, it was to compete in the consumer space, but since then the company has been refocused into the enterprise space, so a high end Z30 successor is not likely in the cards in the near term or long term. I hope they come out with one personally so they can offer that choice to those who want one, but I don't think it's going to happen.

    Posted via CB10
    05-15-15 05:25 AM
  10. lnichols's Avatar
    I don't have the foggiest idea what your point is, to be honest... that BB10 sales are hopelessly bad and there is no device form factor that will sell well?

    or maybe the current devices would sell well if they were market more aggressively?

    or that BlackBerry has to improve the carrier relationships so they have a higher profile in the retail channel?

    or that BlackBerry should incentivize carrier sales reps in the manner that Samsung and Apple do?

    any of those? All of them?
    You said that you know and BlackBerry knows that only "unique" devices will grow sales, not slabs. Well they have had a unique device now for 7 months and a classic since December, so where is the growth? Prove it! The quarterly reports don't back this up.

    Basically what I'm saying this entire unique device argument is BS and hasn't worked, meanwhile they leaving lots of money on the table from the Z users that want an upgrade and are now most out of contract.

    Posted via CB10
    Superdupont 2_0 likes this.
    05-15-15 05:37 AM
  11. jaydee5799's Avatar
    So many people are getting bent out of shape over arguing about business focus and what works for the company. While all valid arguments, I think they miss the point of the thread.

    Yes, the re-focus of the company is working to a degree. Yes, re-focusing on enterprise customers is key. Trying to compete with Samsung, Apple, HTC, etc directly is probably a great way to loose money.

    Still, the point remains that the small number of consumers actively looking for an upgrade path to their Z10/30 are being actively ignored. These people (myself included) are supporters of the company. Our use of the handsets keeps some visibility of the brand in the public eye. Some of us work in positions of influence in organizations that buy enterprise phones.

    We don't really want much. Heck, if they took a Z30 specs, threw in maybe a bit more ram or storage space for apps and put a better camera on it and called that the leap, that would have been my upgrade path. Wouldn't have taken much and wouldn't have cost that much and would have kept me happy at least.


    Posted via CB10 using my Zed Ten
    finally someone that gets it!
    Thank you.
    extisis likes this.
    05-15-15 05:46 AM
  12. deadcowboy's Avatar
    Didn't the Leap just come out?
    How much would it really cost them to include USB OTG functionality in the Leap? I'd love to give it a try, but it's too expensive for such poor specs.

    And I love the Passport, but it's just too awkward. If I had a BlackBerry smartwatch and a man-purse or a backpack. Well that would work great, but it's not practical for everyday use.

    I just want a true Q10 successor. Hell, exact same form factor, but with a better screen and better specs would do it. Or even just a non-double-typing keyboard.

    Really, I just need a modern BB10 OS that isn't falling apart. Because 10.3.1 has me shopping around for other handset makers at the moment. Sad but true.

    Posted via CB10
    05-15-15 09:48 AM
  13. RyanGermann's Avatar
    You said that you know and BlackBerry knows that only "unique" devices will grow sales, not slabs. Well they have had a unique device now for 7 months and a classic since December, so where is the growth? Prove it! The quarterly reports don't back this up.

    Basically what I'm saying this entire unique device argument is BS and hasn't worked, meanwhile they leaving lots of money on the table from the Z users that want an upgrade and are now most out of contract.
    BlackBerry knows because the Z30 should have sold a lot better than it did, if a good full slab device was going to sell, that was a good one right there. Not good ENOUGH you may say, but that's not a provable statement.

    Let's be absolutely blunt here: are you calling out the "unique device" strategy as a SINGLE REASON of failure, not all the other things I mention, and that if BlackBerry would ONLY release a powerful full slab device they WOULD grow their market share?

    If you're saying "to grow BB10 market share, BB has to release a power full slab device that rivals the specifications of top-of-the-line Android devices, but then they ALSO have to build carrier relationships AND market more aggressively AND offer incentives to carrier store staff", then calling any SINGLE strategy point a failure and suggesting the "quarterly reports don't back this [unique PKB devices] up" is perhaps another way of saying "there is no way for BlackBerry to grow their market share, so they should just cater to the market they have."

    Again, my confusion comes from what it is you're saying not just about the failure of PKB devices, but what you are saying about full slab devices, and what BlackBerry prioritizing a powerful full-slab device would do for BlackBerry vis a vis market share.

    Getting more money out of BB10 fans by releasing a powerful device is a smart thing for BlackBerry to do, but it won't grow BB market share, just put a whole bunch of Z10s and Z30s and maybe some Q's onto ebay or kijiji. THAT would grow BB10 market share in a tangental way, assuming that the purchasers are not already BB10 users, but more likely those BB10 fans who buy a new powerful full slab would keep their low-value BB10 device as a backup (trying to sell a Z10 for $50 on eBay isn't worth the hassle for a lot of people).

    Suggesting that BlackBerry's focus on PKB / unique device form factors is a "failing strategy" w.r.t. market share gain, whilst simultaneously suggesting that "powerful full slab" as a potentially winning strategy w.r.t. market share gains without addressing all the other potential failure points in BB's overall strategy doesn't bear scrutiny.

    Perhaps that's not what you're saying, which is why I ask if you think BB growing their market share is hopeless... and if you don't think it's hopeless IF they change many factors of the way they do business, then writing off the "PKB strategy" while advocating the "powerful full-slab strategy" seems like an apples to oranges comparison, and, without significant change in other areas of marketing and carrier relationships, both of these things are true: it's too early to say if the PKB strategy has failed, and there's not enough information to assert that a powerful full-slab strategy would succeed by contrast.

    For what it's worth, I think that BB needs to offer a diverse product lineup, and be less conservative on specs vs. price: go up market both on specs and on price and ALSO do those things like marketing more, and improving carrier relationships, and incentivize sales staff... but also consider things I suggest in the "BlackBerry should open stores" topic. The diverse product lineup I think will work includes powerful full-slab devices, but I have no expectation that there is a single "magic bullet" that's going to improve BlackBerry market share i.e. increase quarterly device sales in a sustainable way. Releasing a powerful full slab will be a mere blip on a quarterly report as the pent-up demand for a powerful full slab is fulfilled for the Z10 and Z30 owners pining for it, but after a very quick burst, the sales of the device will settle down to be the same or even LOWER than devices like the Passport or Slider or Classic. We'll only know when it happens, if it happens BEFORE BlackBerry sorts out all their other market / channel related problems which may in fact start growing market share.
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 05-15-15 at 10:35 AM.
    05-15-15 10:06 AM
  14. lnichols's Avatar
    BlackBerry knows because the Z30 should have sold a lot better than it did, if a good full slab device was going to sell, that was a good one right there. Not good ENOUGH you may say, but that's not a provable statement.

    Let's be absolutely blunt here: are you calling out the "unique device" strategy as a SINGLE REASON of failure, not all the other things I mention, and that if BlackBerry would ONLY release a powerful full slab device they WOULD grow their market share?

    If you're saying "to grow BB10 market share, BB has to release a power full slab device that rivals the specifications of top-of-the-line Android devices, but then they ALSO have to build carrier relationships AND market more aggressively AND offer incentives to carrier store staff", then calling any SINGLE strategy point a failure and suggesting the "quarterly reports don't back this [unique PKB devices] up" is perhaps another way of saying "there is no way for BlackBerry to grow their market share, so they should just cater to the market they have."

    Again, my confusion comes from what it is you're saying not just about the failure of PKB devices, but what you are saying about full slab devices, and what BlackBerry prioritizing a powerful full-slab device would do for BlackBerry vis a vis market share.

    Getting more money out of BB10 fans by releasing a powerful device is a smart thing for BlackBerry to do, but it won't grow BB market share, just put a whole bunch of Z10s and Z30s and maybe some Q's onto ebay or kijiji. THAT would grow BB10 market share in a tangental way, assuming that the purchasers are not already BB10 users, but more likely those BB10 fans who buy a new powerful full slab would keep their low-value BB10 device as a backup (trying to sell a Z10 for $50 on eBay isn't worth the hassle for a lot of people).

    Suggesting that BlackBerry's focus on PKB / unique device form factors is a "failing strategy" w.r.t. market share gain, whilst simultaneously suggesting that "powerful full slab" as a potentially winning strategy w.r.t. market share gains without addressing all the other potential failure points in BB's overall strategy doesn't bear scrutiny.

    Perhaps that's not what you're saying, which is why I ask if you think BB growing their market share is hopeless... and if you don't think it's hopeless IF they change many factors of the way they do business, then writing off the "PKB strategy" while advocating the "powerful full-slab strategy" seems like an apples to oranges comparison, and, without significant change in other areas of marketing and carrier relationships, both of these things are true: it's too early to say if the PKB strategy has failed, and there's not enough information to assert that a powerful full-slab strategy would succeed by contrast.

    For what it's worth, I think that BB needs to offer a diverse product lineup, and be less conservative on specs vs. price: go up market both on specs and on price and ALSO do those things like marketing more, and improving carrier relationships, and incentivize sales staff... but also consider things I suggest in the "BlackBerry should open stores" topic. The diverse product lineup I think will work includes powerful full-slab devices, but I have no expectation that there is a single "magic bullet" that's going to improve BlackBerry market share i.e. increase quarterly device sales in a sustainable way. Releasing a powerful full slab will be a mere blip on a quarterly report as the pent-up demand for a powerful full slab is fulfilled for the Z10 and Z30 owners pining for it, but after a very quick burst, the sales of the device will settle down to be the same or even LOWER than devices like the Passport or Slider or Classic. We'll only know when it happens, if it happens BEFORE BlackBerry sorts out all their other market / channel related problems which may in fact start growing market share.
    No I'm not saying that an all touch replacement is a single point of failure. BlackBerry has many F ups under its belt over the last few years that have severely tarnished the brand. They have p1ssed off many over the years. What I'm saying is that BlackBerry and others have implied that high end PKB devices and the Classic would be the savior, and that is what BlackBerry people want. Ok they are here and where are things at? Chen F'd up and stopped all the high end all touch development to focus on two devices that aren't selling well.

    Part of running a business is attracting new customers, and keeping the old ones happy and engaged too. Ignoring the Z users will cost them current customers, and they can't really afford that. They are also creating a lot of ill will by telling people you are not their target. You can focus on business without telling the consumers who bought into BB10 to go pound sand.

    As for Z30 sales as a reference, we all know that they have never pushed the device, it was released when everyone thought BlackBerry was going to be sold and/or parted out, and they released a middle of the road spec device at flagship price. It's a great device, but I waited until it dropped in price because I have been burnt by paying release prices for PlayBook and Z10, both of which rapidly depreciated faster than they should have. If they want top dollar now from me, better be top specs too to justify the price, and even then the brand image is so poor, they should be coming in lower to gain traction.

    Fact: BlackBerry has NEVER released a high end all touch device, they have only charged people like they were buying one. So BlackBerry has no sales data on what a high end all touch will do.

    Posted via CB10
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    05-15-15 12:32 PM
  15. dwane31's Avatar
    My Z10 still works great, actually with 10.3, better than release day, and still better than a lot of phones on the market..great OS..so why not hang on to it? Why do I have to upgrade? Why do I think I need better specs, the OS will still be the same....a new phone with bigger this faster that, will I really notice much difference if the OS is relatively the same...I know  will miss out on sales for those contracts up...but my Z10 can wait for the next full touch only...not leap or z30
    05-15-15 12:45 PM
  16. RyanGermann's Avatar
    What I'm saying is that BlackBerry and others have implied that high end PKB devices and the Classic would be the savior, and that is what BlackBerry people want. Ok they are here and where are things at? Chen F'd up and stopped all the high end all touch development to focus on two devices that aren't selling well.
    And at the risk of repeating myself, the conclusion that focusing on PKB devices and not producing high-end full-touch is a "f up" is not a conclusion that can be drawn based on available information.

    Part of running a business is attracting new customers, and keeping the old ones happy and engaged too.
    I agree!

    Ignoring the Z users will cost them current customers, and they can't really afford that.
    If by "cost them customers" you mean "missed an opportunity to sell a Z10 user or Z30 user a new full slab device, then I agree. If you mean "lost market share (fewer active BB10 devices: active BB10 device count being reduced)" in that the Z10 or Z30 user will abandon BB10 for another platform, I disagree: it doesn't make sense. Suggesting there is risk to BlackBerry losing market share to other platforms unless they release a powerful full touch device isn't a case that can be made realistically. BlackBerry can get revenue by releasing a full touch, but the number of active BB10 devices in service will not be significantly increased by the release of a powerful full touch, and I assert that the number of active BB10 devices in service is MORE likely to increase with powerful, functional PKB devices than with powerful full slab devices, because I believe that there is pent up demand for something like the Slider among Android and iPhone users, but there is NO pent up demand for a powerful BB10 full slab among Android or iPhone users. They're already ON a wonderfully powerful full slab no-PKB device, so how does it make sense that they're pining to replace that powerful device with one running a marginalized OS platform?

    As for Z30 sales as a reference, we all know that they have never pushed the device, it was released when everyone thought BlackBerry was going to be sold and/or parted out, and they released a middle of the road spec device at flagship price. It's a great device,
    I agree... and the aspects of a powerful device that work in its favour when most people have no idea what a CPU even is, would be that the carrier sales team is impressed by the specs and don't just discount it out of hand... but don't they discount BB10 out of hand because of the App Gap, not because the device CPU is or isn't powerful? Well, they can certainly discount a FULL SLAB BB10 device a lot more easier than a PKB device, because at least the PKB device is offering something unique and well liked, among a subset of mobile device users. The Z30 wasn't ever going to get sold on raves about how powerful it is from the carrier staff... but they wouldn't be selling ANY full-slab BB10 device, regardless of how powerful they think it is, unless lots of other things about BlackBerry (their reputation and high-profile app availability) change first, AND these carrier reps are aware of those positive changes.

    ...but I waited until it dropped in price because I have been burnt by paying release prices for PlayBook and Z10, both of which rapidly depreciated faster than they should have. If they want top dollar now from me, better be top specs too to justify the price, and even then the brand image is so poor, they should be coming in lower to gain traction.
    Fair enough: I pay full launch day prices, because I know all tech pretty much drops in value so quickly that if you're interested in devices with maximum resale value, consider "Faberg eggs" instead of "smartphones". Sure, BB devices drop value faster than others, but NOTHING keeps it's value really. I sold my Passport for $400 recently after getting it for $499 + tax + US Exchange so I lost a couple hundred on it, but still, I was expecting it to sell for even LESS than that, and the going rate for Passports seems to be still above $400... so if anything, these underproduced BB10 PKB devices are keeping their value better than the full-slab cousins... is that because the Passport has a PKB? or because it's powerful? or because it's not common? or because BB hasn't cut the asking price in half? All of the above, I think.

    Fact: BlackBerry has NEVER released a high end all touch device, they have only charged people like they were buying one. So BlackBerry has no sales data on what a high end all touch will do.
    ....but you can't continue to call PKB device strategy a "failure" and assert that a powerful full slab product release would "not be a failure". Can we agree that it would be yet another thing to throw at the wall and see if it sticks? I certainly hope that BlackBerry isn't actually following a "throw it at the wall and see if it sticks" strategy and is instead focusing on the unique aspects of their value proposition, which goes hand in hand with the PKB device strategy, and are working REALLY HARD on the OTHER aspects of the go-to-market strategy that are clearly problems that make increasing market share or improving their corporate reputation difficult.

    For BlackBerry to release ANOTHER full-slab device that fails to gain market share would be a TERRIBLE risk: for BlackBerry to continue to release PKB devices that get the kind of reviews like "It's the best PKB device you can buy, but it's not an Android device" would be better: being very good at something unique is FAR better for their reputation than being mediocre at something others do much much "better".

    ...although I'm also an advocate for them to license their PKB patents and / or release a device like the Typo keyboard for iOS and Android, and make money off PKBs for use on other OS platforms: they're willing to undermine the BB10 value proposition by making the Hub and the BB10 keyboard available on other platforms, so why the reluctance to leverage their PKB patents similarly, but they're not doing that, so... well, we just have to wait and see.
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 05-15-15 at 02:38 PM.
    05-15-15 01:01 PM
  17. lnichols's Avatar
    And at the risk of repeating myself, the conclusion that focusing on PKB devices and not producing high-end full-touch is a "f up" is not a conclusion that can be drawn based on available information.



    I agree!



    If by "cost them customers" you mean "missed an opportunity to sell a Z10 user or Z30 user a new full slab device, then I agree. If you mean "lost market share (fewer active BB10 devices: active BB10 device count being reduced)" in that the Z10 or Z30 user will abandon BB10 for another platform, I disagree: it doesn't make sense. Suggesting there is risk to BlackBerry losing market share to other platforms unless they release a powerful full touch device isn't a case that can be made realistically. BlackBerry can get revenue by releasing a full touch, but the number of active BB10 devices in service will not be significantly increased by the release of a powerful full touch, and I assert that the number of active BB10 devices in service is MORE likely to increase with powerful, functional PKB devices than with powerful full slab devices, because I believe that there is pent up demand for something like the Slider among Android and iPhone users, but there is NO pent up demand for a powerful BB10 full slab among Android or iPhone users. They're already ON a wonderfully powerful full slab no-PKB device, so how does it make sense that they're pining to replace that powerful device with one running a marginalized OS platform?



    I agree... and the aspects of a powerful device that work in its favour when most people have no idea what a CPU even is, would be that the carrier sales team is impressed by the specs and don't just discount it out of hand... but don't they discount BB10 out of hand because of the App Gap, not because the device CPU is or isn't powerful? Well, they can certainly discount a FULL SLAB BB10 device a lot more easier than a PKB device, because at least the PKB device is offering something unique and well liked, among a subset of mobile device users. The Z30 wasn't ever going to get sold on raves about how powerful it is from the carrier staff... but they wouldn't be selling ANY full-slab BB10 device, regardless of how powerful they think it is, unless lots of other things about BlackBerry (their reputation and high-profile app availability) change first, AND these carrier reps are aware of those positive changes.



    Fair enough: I pay full launch day prices, because I know all tech pretty much drops in value so quickly that if you're interested in devices with maximum resale value, consider "Faberg eggs" instead of "smartphones". Sure, BB devices drop value faster than others, but NOTHING keeps it's value really. I sold my Passport for $400 recently after getting it for $499 + tax + US Exchange so I lost a couple hundred on it, but still, I was expecting it to sell for even LESS than that, and the going rate for Passports seems to be still above $400... so if anything, these underproduced BB10 PKB devices are keeping their value better than the full-slab cousins... is that because the Passport has a PKB? or because it's powerful? or because it's not common? or because BB hasn't cut the asking price in half? All of the above, I think.



    ....but you can't continue to call PKB device strategy a "failure" and assert that a powerful full slab product release would "not be a failure". Can we agree that it would be yet another thing to throw at the wall and see if it sticks? I certainly hope that BlackBerry isn't actually following a "throw it at the wall and see if it sticks" strategy and is instead focusing on the unique aspects of their value proposition, which goes hand in hand with the PKB device strategy, and are working REALLY HARD on the OTHER aspects of the go-to-market strategy that are clearly problems that make increasing market share or improving their corporate reputation difficult.

    For BlackBerry to release ANOTHER full-slab device that fails to gain market share would be a TERRIBLE risk: for BlackBerry to continue to release PKB devices that get the kind of reviews like "It's the best PKB device you can buy, but it's not an Android device" would be better: being very good at something unique is FAR better for their reputation than being mediocre at something others do much much "better".

    ...although I'm also an advocate for them to license their PKB patents and / or release a device like the Typo keyboard for iOS and Android, and make money off PKBs for use on other OS platforms: they're willing to undermine the BB10 value proposition by making the Hub and the BB10 keyboard available on other platforms, so why the reluctance to leverage their PKB patents similarly, but they're not doing that, so... well, we just have to wait and see.
    Again, where are these PKB device sales? Where is the growth? Have they sold more PKB devices than all touch with BB10? You imply that PKB devices are selling better and doing better, but where is the proof? You can avoid it all you want, but if what you were saying is true, then BlackBerry device sales should be better than they ever have been.

    I'm not advocating they ignore PKB. Their is a shrinking niche there they should cater to while it continues to rapidly decline. They should keep putting out stuttering keyboards as long as their our people out their willing to buy them. I'm stating that ignoring an upgrade path for the Z users is poor business decision. If they had made the Leap with just better than Z30 specs, even slightly, it would have been at least a possible option. Where is the leveraging of Foxconn? I don't think a lot of users who have been converted to all touch by BlackBerry are going to wait around too much longer. Lots of users here have been buying other phones, talking about it, etc.

    Also are good reviews on PKB devices no one is buying, because most people don't want PKB devices now, really that useful? If I don't like or want something, then a good review of it doesn't do anything for me. Leap is getting decent reviews now too. BlackBerry in general is getting better reviews now because the BB10 OS has improved dramatically since the launch.

    BlackBerry has proven with the Passport that they can produce a higher end device in low volume and be profitable, well they say that they were at least. They could have done the same with a higher end all touch, and I bet sales would surpass the Passport, and probably the Classic IMHO. BB10 was designed for all touch and many of us have embraced that philosophy and don't need or want a PKB on the device, even if hidden in a slider mechanism. Quite frankly I don't trust BlackBerry QA and engineering enough to get another PKB device from them even if it's hidden, or a slider mechanism either. Just more stuff that can break.

    Posted via CB10
    05-15-15 05:03 PM
  18. RyanGermann's Avatar
    Again, where are these PKB device sales? Where is the growth? Have they sold more PKB devices than all touch with BB10? You imply that PKB devices are selling better and doing better, but where is the proof?
    Neither of us can prove our suggestions for what's best for BlackBerry because neither of us have the sales data, and the overall go-to-market strategy is so full of holes that even if there WAS published per-device data, it wouldn't be credible because of the lack of marketing, and the app gap is actually more like a chasm, so does any sales data represent the 'they did everything right and this outsold that, so it makes their path forward clear.

    Why I think a full slab strategy will not increase BB10 market share:
    - BB10 users who have not abandoned BlackBerry 10 in the face of the excellence of iOS and Android platforms and devices are unlikely to do so now, because both Android and iOS aren't changing and are well known: If you haven't left yet, you're not gonna.
    - BBM is already available and the Hub and BB10 virtual keyboard (VKB) WILL be coming to powerful full-slab devices that run Android and iOS: this has been announced and BlackBerry is unlikely to back away from that. I expect a mass exodus of BB10 users who want a powerful full touch experience to Android or iOS, because with the Hub and KB on those platforms, the BB10 competitive advantage is marginalized. I believe this exodus would occur even of a BB10 device equivalent to the Galaxy S6 existed, but slightly mitigated.

    Why I think a unique devices strategy WILL increase BB10 market share:
    - a lot of users on Android and iOS suffer with a full touch virtual keyboard and don't like it, but they DO Like a 16 x 9 high res screen. I think the Slider is going to make a lot of people give BB10 a serious look. They may be willing to switch OS platforms if they aren't APP hounds, and are more concerned about core messaging capabilities and aren't dependent on platform-specific services like iMessage in particular. The general multi-media capabilities of BB10 are really good for browsing and media playback so those coming to BB10 won't have to suffer a tiny square screen on the Slider. I just pray the slider sounds as good as the Z30, or close to it.
    - the Passport is different and the UX is unique and appealing to some. To know it is to love it, and it my be spreading like a virus as people who own them show them to others and these people who self-identify as 'messaging is important, apps not-so-much' will only have BlackBerry to choose from for this form factor.
    - The classic has the messaging AND hard call send and end AND the trackpad: a niche appeal, but fed-up Android and iOS 'messaging, not apps' users pining for a PKB will choose the Classic or Passport

    WHO currently using an Android or iOS device is going to choose BB10 full slab device over a BB10 Slider or an Android or iOS device. If they don't want the PKB, why not stay with Android or iOS?

    If you can describe this person and this person is not likely to be MORE satisfied with an Android or iOS full slab device, or would be more satisfied with a BB10 Slider, Passport, or Classic, please explain their motivations: what is it that BB10 on a full slab can give them that they can't get on Android or iOS, especially with the impending release of the Hub and VKB on those platforms?

    I can't think of any reason except 'they just like BB10'... so they should buy a Z30 today! It's the best value device available. Compare the UX of the Z30 to the core OS on a comparably priced Galaxy S3 or iPhone 4s or 5, and the Z30 kicks it's bee-hind. Now, if you need apps and so on you better buy that S3 or iPhone 4s.
    05-16-15 08:37 PM
  19. Blackberry_Boss's Avatar
    My girl broke her white Z30. Now the big question is replacing it another Z30 or a Leap. Which one should I get her?

    Posted By My BeastBerry
    05-16-15 08:41 PM
  20. birdman_38's Avatar
    My girl broke her white Z30. Now the big question is replacing it another Z30 or a Leap. Which one should I get her?
    Leap
    05-16-15 09:58 PM
  21. Blackberry_Boss's Avatar
    Leap
    Does the leap use USB like Z30 or is it like the passport. BlackBerry need to get its cords in order, I can't be having hella different cords and stuff man.

    Posted By My BeastBerry
    05-16-15 10:01 PM
  22. anon(8982767)'s Avatar
    We need another full touch screen phone
    05-16-15 10:43 PM
  23. extisis's Avatar
    Does the leap use USB like Z30 or is it like the passport. BlackBerry need to get its cords in order, I can't be having hella different cords and stuff man.

    Posted By My BeastBerry
    It's got less cords to deal with but idk if that's a good thing

    Posted via the CB10 App on my Z10
    05-16-15 11:03 PM
  24. lnichols's Avatar
    Neither of us can prove our suggestions for what's best for BlackBerry because neither of us have the sales data, and the overall go-to-market strategy is so full of holes that even if there WAS published per-device data, it wouldn't be credible because of the lack of marketing, and the app gap is actually more like a chasm, so does any sales data represent the 'they did everything right and this outsold that, so it makes their path forward clear.

    Why I think a full slab strategy will not increase BB10 market share:
    - BB10 users who have not abandoned BlackBerry 10 in the face of the excellence of iOS and Android platforms and devices are unlikely to do so now, because both Android and iOS aren't changing and are well known: If you haven't left yet, you're not gonna.
    - BBM is already available and the Hub and BB10 virtual keyboard (VKB) WILL be coming to powerful full-slab devices that run Android and iOS: this has been announced and BlackBerry is unlikely to back away from that. I expect a mass exodus of BB10 users who want a powerful full touch experience to Android or iOS, because with the Hub and KB on those platforms, the BB10 competitive advantage is marginalized. I believe this exodus would occur even of a BB10 device equivalent to the Galaxy S6 existed, but slightly mitigated.

    Why I think a unique devices strategy WILL increase BB10 market share:
    - a lot of users on Android and iOS suffer with a full touch virtual keyboard and don't like it, but they DO Like a 16 x 9 high res screen. I think the Slider is going to make a lot of people give BB10 a serious look. They may be willing to switch OS platforms if they aren't APP hounds, and are more concerned about core messaging capabilities and aren't dependent on platform-specific services like iMessage in particular. The general multi-media capabilities of BB10 are really good for browsing and media playback so those coming to BB10 won't have to suffer a tiny square screen on the Slider. I just pray the slider sounds as good as the Z30, or close to it.
    - the Passport is different and the UX is unique and appealing to some. To know it is to love it, and it my be spreading like a virus as people who own them show them to others and these people who self-identify as 'messaging is important, apps not-so-much' will only have BlackBerry to choose from for this form factor.
    - The classic has the messaging AND hard call send and end AND the trackpad: a niche appeal, but fed-up Android and iOS 'messaging, not apps' users pining for a PKB will choose the Classic or Passport

    WHO currently using an Android or iOS device is going to choose BB10 full slab device over a BB10 Slider or an Android or iOS device. If they don't want the PKB, why not stay with Android or iOS?

    If you can describe this person and this person is not likely to be MORE satisfied with an Android or iOS full slab device, or would be more satisfied with a BB10 Slider, Passport, or Classic, please explain their motivations: what is it that BB10 on a full slab can give them that they can't get on Android or iOS, especially with the impending release of the Hub and VKB on those platforms?

    I can't think of any reason except 'they just like BB10'... so they should buy a Z30 today! It's the best value device available. Compare the UX of the Z30 to the core OS on a comparably priced Galaxy S3 or iPhone 4s or 5, and the Z30 kicks it's bee-hind. Now, if you need apps and so on you better buy that S3 or iPhone 4s.
    We'll just have to agree to disagree.

    Posted via CB10
    05-17-15 08:48 AM
  25. THBW's Avatar
    Most critics of any BlackBerry strategy that doesn't include catering to their specific desires a.s.a.p. will bring up correlations that supposedly "prove" this or that... non-science that they will hammer on with until you just give up. Fortunately or hopefully BlackBerry strategists are smarter than that.

    "People like iPhones therefore people hate PKB devices". Perhaps people like large screens and app variety and iOS itself to a degree that displaces their appreciation of PKBs because they currently have no choice for a large screen app-rich device WITH a PKB? I hope that the Slider will provide new data in support of PKBs because the Slider won't be saddled with a small square screen and will also be sufficiently speced... but it will still be running BB10 so it's market will be limited from the get go... and for my part, BlackBerry device hardware isn't the problem: it is BB10 itself and the limited app selection, and BB's market perception that is a limiting factor in market acceptance: the PKB is an asset, not a liability, but I'm not going to try to convince anyone of that.

    To some people correlation = causation and adopting such premises is how you run a business into the ground, unless you're lucky: in fact, I think our 20/20 Heins-sight shows what a disaster 'correlation = causation' ('people want all-touch devices') can be. The market rejection of BB10 full-touch devices SHOULD be an object lesson in the dangers of over-simplified market analysis, not identifying your target market properly, and not fully understanding their needs, but CrackBerry members spend hours a day hammering their points home.
    Bingo, you hit the spot. In many ways, I think BlackBerry is in a position of increasing strength. Hardware is unique and the high end devices simply give you more than the competition. BB10 is way better than the competition and devices are priced to sell. PKB, battery life and screen space are all positives. App selection is improving but still needs a bit of work on the consumer side. That is the last issue which holds consumers back just a bit. If this gets fixed as Chen is suggesting, then sales volumes will change accordingly. Things are starting to change.

    Posted via CB10
    05-17-15 11:01 AM
113 ... 2345

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