06-29-10 02:57 PM
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  1. grahamf's Avatar
    Now what if i offered you the Mazda pickup or 2012 Ford F450 and you can pick one for $800. And your job was hauling around stuff. What would you pick?
    Obviously the Mazda. it's so old that the price is norma, and it's much cheaper to insure and gas up.
    The ford, on the other hand, would be much more to fill up and i can't afford the insurance (being 18), and if you are selling it for $800 there must be something so wrong that i don't want to be within a kilometre of the thing, in case it blows up.
    06-12-10 08:15 PM
  2. subtech's Avatar
    Perhaps I should have worded it differently. I meant a device with overall usability. I mean, yes you can technically do anything with the right kind of app, but I don't often find myself in a position where I'm wanting to "do anything". I just want to text, call, occasionally surf some websites, etc...
    And that's fine. We all have unique needs and use our devices differently.

    I have no problems opening apps on my phone either. A faster processor would be nice, but not something I'm really dying for. If the new BlackBerrys have faster processors, great. If not, it's no big deal to me.
    A faster proc is one of those things that once you experience, it's hard to go back. As I mentioned, EVERY aspect of the device is enhanced. The speed at which you surf the web, etc. It that's not important to you, that's fine, be be mindful that you are in a VERY slim subset of mobile users.

    I would have to highly disagree with this. Just look at Nokia's marketshare. They don't make the fanciest devices either. Of course, they're slipping quite considerably and RIM is hot on their tails. Then again, RIM doesn't make shiny phones either. Then there's iPhone chasing after RIM, but even the iPhone didn't have specs to write home about before the 4G. Their camera wasn't the best either.
    Nokia is losing marketshare and is expected to fall short of earnings this quarter. RIM is sliding a bit as well, but not nearly as bad. The iPhone has had wonderful specs up to and including their latest effort. (3GS at a year old has a Cortex A8 proc)

    The point is, the people looking for a super device with a giant screen are in the minority as far as I'm aware. They're a noisy minority on these forums, mind you, but a BlackBerry fansite with over 2million users on the forums speaks volumes.
    It's not all about super hardware, it's about a better overall experience. If you don't use twitter/facebook, surf the web, watch movies, listen to music, use maps/navigation, take photos/shoot video, etc, then YES, you can keep on trucking with a Blackberry. If you DO use any of those features, you're (currently) better off with some other devices. RIM either needs to commit to the consumer market or get out of it. If they commit, they need to remain competitive, or they're going to get killed.

    Should RIM be concerned? Meh. That's a whole different discussion. It's not like they can "innovate a little faster". It just doesn't work that way. Can you tell inventors to invent things faster? Upgrade their phones, maybe, but throwing on high-end specs on a phone can hardly be considered "innovative". It really doesn't take much ingenuity to buy up the fastest processors on the market and throw it onto a phone. What I consider innovative is something like the iPhone 4's implementation of the antennae as part of the metal trimming. Now that's an innovation (assuming it actually functions correctly).
    Actually yes, a company can innovate faster by acquiring new talent. For example Google, taking feedback from the community that Android suffers in some interface aspects just got the lead designer of WebOS to jump ship to them. Apple, needing to work on their notification system also just poached the WebOS UI designer responsible for that. Even RIM got in on the act, acquiring Torch mobile, speeding up the development of their webkit browser significantly.

    The point is, if you can't do it in house, find someone else outside of it.

    Anyways, good post.
    Same to you.

    By the way, this thread inspired a new post. Funeral for RIM Techranter I don't expect you to agree with it, but hopefully it will provide some food for thought.
    06-16-10 10:55 AM
  3. Pearl9100's Avatar
    id say yes, but as a lower/cheaper brand. it seems like their direction especially with the 9105 and other lower end devices like the 9300
    06-17-10 02:10 AM
  4. Masahiro's Avatar
    If you don't use twitter/facebook, surf the web, watch movies, listen to music, use maps/navigation, take photos/shoot video, etc, then YES, you can keep on trucking with a Blackberry. If you DO use any of those features, you're (currently) better off with some other devices. RIM either needs to commit to the consumer market or get out of it. If they commit, they need to remain competitive, or they're going to get killed.
    I can do all those things just fine on my BlackBerry. The one glaring weakness is the browser, which is being worked on.
    RIM is very much committed to their (key word) consumer market. That's exactly why they can't make any radical changes to their platform. A lot of people buy BlackBerrys simply because they're great for messaging amongst many other things. In terms of the market, BlackBerrys represent the "middle ground" between regular dumbphones and high-end multimedia super phones. This, along with their various form factors, gives them access to a wide section of the overall smartphone market (the vast majority are still dumbphone users).

    As for the faster processor, like I said, it would be nice (assuming there's no negative impact on battery life), but it's gravy to me. I'm not going to switch over to another phone just because it has a faster processor. I'm going to let that argument die though, since I don't think we'll ever come to a full agreement on it.

    Actually yes, a company can innovate faster by acquiring new talent. For example Google, taking feedback from the community that Android suffers in some interface aspects just got the lead designer of WebOS to jump ship to them. Apple, needing to work on their notification system also just poached the WebOS UI designer responsible for that. Even RIM got in on the act, acquiring Torch mobile, speeding up the development of their webkit browser significantly.

    The point is, if you can't do it in house, find someone else outside of it.
    Yes, but that's not my point though. Like I said, you can't force inventions by throwing a bunch of money at it. You can hire people and import ideas from other platforms, sure. There's nothing wrong with that (barring any patent infringements), but that's not what is considered "innovation":

    Main Entry: innovation
    Pronunciation: \ˌi-nə-ˈvā-shən\
    Function: noun
    Date: 15th century
    1 : the introduction of something new
    2 : a new idea, method, or device : novelty

    Reusing ideas that work is one thing. Introducing something completely new is another. I always hear how iPhone and Android are "innovative", yet I see very few concrete examples of how... I mean, there are examples. Like I mentioned before, I like the antennae design of the iPhone. I hope it works well and finds its way onto other phones in one way or another. I also like Chrome on your desktop can sync with Android Froyo. Of course, RIM has its own innovations too, like SureType (by far my favourite mobile keyboard to use). A lot of people seem to be focused on the specs alone though.

    The point is, innovations happen here and there for any platform. I think it's redundant to rant about.
    Last edited by Masahiro; 06-17-10 at 02:31 AM.
    06-17-10 02:16 AM
  5. subtech's Avatar
    I can do all those things just fine on my BlackBerry. The one glaring weakness is the browser, which is being worked on.
    Just because a phone has certain functionality doesn't mean there aren't better implementations of it elsewhere. Both BB and Android have a google voice app, for example, yet the Android version is far, far better. (faster, more features, etc) Facebook, Twitter, Google Maps, etc, all better versions. In fact, after owning 4 BBs and now Android, the ONLY app that has a better experience on a BB is Slacker Radio. (Station catching feature) EVERY other app that's available for BOTH leans towards Android having the better version. Also remember that this cuts both ways. A Droid or iPhone can "do email just fine", but I think we'd both agree the Blackberry email experience is far superior.

    RIM is very much committed to their (key word) consumer market. That's exactly why they can't make any radical changes to their platform. A lot of people buy BlackBerrys simply because they're great for messaging amongst many other things. In terms of the market, BlackBerrys represent the "middle ground" between regular dumbphones and high-end multimedia super phones. This, along with their various form factors, gives them access to a wide section of the overall smartphone market (the vast majority are still dumbphone users).
    Maybe they're middle ground devices now, but at a time not long ago they we're the cutting edge "it" device. I remember the Bold 9000 being at the forefront of mobile tech.

    As for the faster processor, like I said, it would be nice (assuming there's no negative impact on battery life), but it's gravy to me. I'm not going to switch over to another phone just because it has a faster processor. I'm going to let that argument die though, since I don't think we'll ever come to a full agreement on it.
    We'll have to let this go as we definitely disagree over the fundamental importance of a fast processor.

    Yes, but that's not my point though. Like I said, you can't force inventions by throwing a bunch of money at it. You can hire people and import ideas from other platforms, sure. There's nothing wrong with that (barring any patent infringements), but that's not what is considered "innovation":
    You can ABSOLUTELY "force" an invention by throwing money at it. It's called research, and research needs funding. Plenty of great ideas die on the vine because of a lack of money to bring them to life.

    Main Entry: innovation
    Pronunciation: \ˌi-nə-ˈvā-shən\
    Function: noun
    Date: 15th century
    1 : the introduction of something new
    2 : a new idea, method, or device : novelty

    Reusing ideas that work is one thing. Introducing something completely new is another. I always hear how iPhone and Android are "innovative", yet I see very few concrete examples of how... I mean, there are examples. Like I mentioned before, I like the antennae design of the iPhone. I hope it works well and finds its way onto other phones in one way or another. I also like Chrome on your desktop can sync with Android Froyo. Of course, RIM has its own innovations too, like SureType (by far my favourite mobile keyboard to use). A lot of people seem to be focused on the specs alone though.
    Well this is really just semantics. I have "a new idea" (definition 2), let's add a digital gyroscope to our device. See? I just innovated. I'm also unsure what you mean by "completely new". I could say that SureType is either "another implementation of inputting text" or a "completely revolutionary method of inputting text. It just depends on the wording. I'd say anytime a new feature is added, there's innovation taking place.


    The point is, innovations happen here and there for any platform. I think it's redundant to rant about.
    I'd say it's quite relevant in a thread title "Does Blackberry stand a chance?" You're correct that innovations happen on all platforms, the discussion is many believe other companies are innovating more frequently and more significantly than RIM at this point in time. If RIM doesn't want their market share to begin eroding further, they might want to speed things up a little. That's all I'm saying

    Anyway, great points and lots of food for thought.
    06-21-10 10:49 AM
  6. Masahiro's Avatar
    Just because a phone has certain functionality doesn't mean there aren't better implementations of it elsewhere. Both BB and Android have a google voice app, for example, yet the Android version is far, far better.
    This doesn't surprise me at all. They are Google products after all. As for Facebook, etc..., you're right. The app experience on BlackBerrys simply doesn't compare to Androids or iPhones. I personally don't care that much for apps, but it is one area that RIM needs to improve upon.

    Maybe they're middle ground devices now, but at a time not long ago they we're the cutting edge "it" device. I remember the Bold 9000 being at the forefront of mobile tech.
    Yeah, but that was before the 3GS and Android 2.0. It's not hard being "cutting edge" when you're one of the only shows in town.

    Well this is really just semantics. I have "a new idea" (definition 2), let's add a digital gyroscope to our device. See? I just innovated. I'm also unsure what you mean by "completely new". I could say that SureType is either "another implementation of inputting text" or a "completely revolutionary method of inputting text. It just depends on the wording. I'd say anytime a new feature is added, there's innovation taking place.
    Yeah, but you gave me examples of Google and Apple acquiring talent from other companies in order to implement UI elements from other platforms onto their own. You're pretty much importing ideas, not creating anything new. Again, there's nothing wrong with that, but it's not exactly "innovative".
    By the way, SureType is definitely not to be underrated. It gives me the option to free up a hand while texting. I find it far more difficult to type with one hand on a full keyboard, especially a virtual one. One of the main reasons why I got a 9550 and not a 9700 was for SureType.

    I'd say it's quite relevant in a thread title "Does Blackberry stand a chance?" You're correct that innovations happen on all platforms, the discussion is many believe other companies are innovating more frequently and more significantly than RIM at this point in time. If RIM doesn't want their market share to begin eroding further, they might want to speed things up a little. That's all I'm saying.
    I see what you're saying, but keeping in mind what innovation actually means, I think they're all going at their own steady paces. Besides, it's not just about who innovates the most and the fastest. These new ideas have to work and appeal to the market as well.

    Just as an example...

    What I consider innovative is something like the iPhone 4's implementation of the antennae as part of the metal trimming. Now that's an innovation (assuming it actually functions correctly).
    Oops... Looks like I spoke too soon...

    Putting aside all the semantics and round-a-bout arguments, it all comes down to what platform has the right ideas for me. I like the idea of SureType and SurePress. I like the idea of convenience keys. I like the idea of the LED. I like the idea of push. All these things (amongst many others) are worth more to me in terms of my daily usage than having the fastest processors, tons of apps, exorbitantly large touch screens, aesthetic UIs, 8MP cameras, front-facing cameras, etc...
    06-24-10 04:22 PM
  7. The_Engine's Avatar
    ^^^
    Good points mashiro. SureType is definitely awesome once you get used to it.

    And for all the wonder of the iPhone 4 having yellow smudges under the screen and antenna shorts when you hold the phone is pretty horrible.

    Maybe RIM does have a chance. LOL.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    06-24-10 04:29 PM
  8. edhgreatone's Avatar
    blackberry = reliable...

    i have had every phone and i am not exaggerating... iphone/original droid/incredible/curve/storm1/storm2/tour/ and now bold... I will also be buying the droid x when its released...

    I cannot pin point the exact reason and it's definitely not for technology... but whatever phone I use for days/weeks at the most I am always, always, always going back to blackberry.. ALWAYS

    the simplicity, ease of use, good battery, and reliability of BB's are off in a whole other direction... as a tech nerd, I always compare apple/android to xbox/playstation and I compare nintendo - blackberry... wii doesn't have HD but its more fun to play... blackberry's arn't the latest technology, never have been... but the key thing here is...

    I can do everything I need to do, access files, text/type faster, load apps, view pictures, watch movies, mobiscope, slingbox, garmin... I can just manuver through a BB 100x better than any other device i've ever used period... quick luanch + shortcuts is incredible... and BB's side key's = amazing... I don't have to flip through home screens on the droid to find a simple icon or applicaiton... my battery isn't drained after 4 hours of use... I can actually see my screen while i'm outside... hey I have a video light I can record with...

    ancient technology or not... I perfer a BB over any device no questions asked but that doesn't stop my from seeing the latest technology... i'm looking for to OS 6 and the Webkit... It's kind of like windows XP versus windows 7... corporate business use windows xp and they use BB's for a reason...
    06-25-10 10:48 AM
  9. mas3222's Avatar
    People are always telling RIM to speed up there development and everything but first, has anyone ever really known RIM to be quick at anything? They are outstanding phones and I wouldn't give mine up. Maybe they got too comfortable being at the top of the smartphone market and didn't look too far into the future. They are still at the top although that is slipping but one good innovative feature and its back to making a gap. Too bad we just always have to be so patient with RIM.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    06-25-10 11:01 AM
  10. Skeevecr's Avatar
    I think people are wrong to think that rim aren't forward looking, not jumping into the highly fickle part of the market where the highest spec is almost all that matters is not the same thing at all.

    It is probably just a realisation on their part that unless you have the massive advertising budget of apple then your high end model is old news as soon as the next high end model from somebody else takes the spotlight e.g. look how fast the incredible and the desire have fallen out of the news due to the evo, the iphone 4, the droid x and various other androids.

    Rim's plan seems more considered in some ways, they have a range of models from entry-level to the mid-high level to cater to all their existing customers and then they have other models designed to keep expanding their market from such things as the t9-style of the 9105 to that new curve that is intended to help them expand in the chinese market or even the clamshell which also seems intended as another way to shift more people over to smartphones from their existing feature phone.
    06-26-10 09:45 AM
  11. The_Engine's Avatar
    Here's something to digest on this topic.

    A family member works for a large industrial software maker. (think like peoplesoft, and largescale manufacturing support). He was showing off the iPhone his company have him since they are now building iPhone apps to support their product line. They took back his bold 9700 and gave him a 3GS. Oh and they said they'll get him an iPhone 4 later this year.

    So there is a couple of issues. This company has over 1500 BB's and they are starting to look at iPhones. That the lesser item. The larger item is that they are a large software company and they are building iPhone apps to support their software not BB apps. Their clientele is all enterprise and they be out there selling their platforms with iPhone support.

    That sort trend is what will kill RIM.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Last edited by The_Engine; 06-28-10 at 06:56 AM.
    06-28-10 06:53 AM
  12. stsurbrook's Avatar
    The_Engine,

    +1!!!!!!!!!!!! I've made a similar observation here:

    http://forums.crackberry.com/showthr...11#post5291511

    Scott
    06-28-10 09:55 AM
  13. 1812dave's Avatar
    Just give it time we have great things coming our way think about it how long has 5.0 been out ... and already 6.0? no 5.5 ? one that sounds a awful lot like they need a os to be able to hold up to something new ... humm that makes sense.....and ok evo 4g.... its on sprint... nuff said and i-phone 4g... = squared ipod.. and lets see multi-tasking on that ... battery life will epic FAIL! and IMO this whole S3 thing.... i believe this is 9800 is gonna be the closest we get for a while but as far as jumping ship and going to another phone trust me I play with every phone their is and my sim card always goes back into the blackberry tell ya what give it 6 months then you can come back and thank me and ps only bad thing about the 9800 .... how can we get a otter box on a slider =(
    Are you aware that you won't be charged a dollar for every period in your post? You've got the ellipses down pat--now try some periods. They are free. Trust me.
    06-28-10 12:36 PM
  14. 1812dave's Avatar
    People are always telling RIM to speed up there development and everything but first, has anyone ever really known RIM to be quick at anything? They are outstanding phones and I wouldn't give mine up. Maybe they got too comfortable being at the top of the smartphone market and didn't look too far into the future. They are still at the top although that is slipping but one good innovative feature and its back to making a gap. Too bad we just always have to be so patient with RIM.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Which creature won the race? The tortoise or the hare? Patience IS a virtue. I, for one, am not at all phased by the popularity of the Jesus phone. Don't want one. No BBM, no surepress screen, no LED, no sale. I look forward to an even better Storm to keep me from considering one of the newer Androids, however. (and yes, I know there's no BBM on anything but a BB, so that's a saving grace for BB!)
    06-28-10 12:39 PM
  15. 1magine's Avatar
    Why do you all give the BB a better e-mail experience? You are either insane, brain damaged or are far from a 'power user'! My BB e-mail is regularly truncated! Any HTML is regularly stripped out and needs to be seperately downloaded. It comes 3 - 30 secs quicker on a BB than on an Incredible. (Trolls will never admit that Exchange Server works just as well pushing e-mail to dozens of other smart phones). In use on on an exchange server today, BB averaged about 5 secs quicker. With that I can live. Not to mention cut/paste and typing in general (though this may be limited to an S2 v. Incredible comparison) was so much better on the Incredible. Of course I'm on BES, so I have no choice, but if I did, my son's Incredible or the new Droid X would be mine.

    Anyone (and boy are there thousands of you) who insists that Java run-time is in any way a superior mobile coding platform, is insisting that a DOS based Windows 95 is far superior to Windows 7. That's right - Win. 95 was still being sold when RIM decided that Java Runtime was the only secure platform for delivering push e-mail. They have certainly cleaned up the code, and added functionality to keep up with the hardware they utilize (which is almost as many generations behind) but the piglet has grown up, gotten fat and hairy and no matter how many tummy tucks, facelifts and tatooed makeups you torture this OS with, it is still an old, smelly pig.

    Yeah - I know it works great for you. And anything you do with the exception of BBM will work better on a dozen different devices. I know - you only need a WAP browser. And if another of you 'knuckle draggers' scream "I need the security". I'll reach through my PC and **** on your corn flakes. You don't know what you need the security from, or admit that even a feature phone has a password lock, and all smartphones have remote lock and wipe applications. I've never met anyone outside of government us and an exec who gets gov't contracts that fully enables encryption and has their own key. They all run a seperate RSA token just to access their phone. And for all of Apple's and Google's rookie mistakes - no e-mail or text has ever been remotely intercepted.

    I've said this before, and I'll say it again - a Sherman Tank has had its day. WWII was won in no small measure due to its participation. Even if you fear terrorists, its time has passed. A Sherman will almost certainly protect you from terrorist attack (though I always wonder about the fears of those not nearlly in harm's way, whether by terrorists or through smartphone use), it will certainly get you from point A to point B, but it is old and slow and there are better choices for protection, speed, appearance and general daily use. Same is true of the BB and its OS.
    06-29-10 01:35 PM
  16. dkingsf's Avatar
    blackberry stance a huge chance all these other phones are missing one big thing and i dont know why its not mentioned more often and that is the keyboard not everybody believe it or not wants or even like touchscreens rim makes the best keyboard on the market hands down not any of theses other phones come close and the phone it self just works its like a horse it just has a great feal in your hand. i'm in canada and we where just at the mall and anyone that was pulling out there phone to make a call or check email or what ever it was a ratio of about 4 to 1 today blackberry that i saw and the majority was those new curves
    Do they not teach you punctuation and capitalization and spelling in Canada? One period in how many sentences? No capital letters. Not even an extra space.
    06-29-10 02:08 PM
  17. grahamf's Avatar
    [snip]
    To me that's like trying to convince me that the brand new Ford Ranger beats my 1991 Mazda B2200 Cab plus, while you're sitting in the Ranger's crappy jump seat.
    sure the Mazda may not be as powerful or as new as the Ranger, but it's nimble enough to park pretty much anywhere, has a comfortable back seat, and is still running.
    06-29-10 02:57 PM
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