01-06-15 08:53 AM
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  1. THBW's Avatar
    Can someone please tell me how a slider helps BlackBerry? Are you just creating a second device to appeal to the same audience? Chen is typically not sloppy with language and I don't think he would refer to a slider (irrespective of the keyboard design) as revolutionary. I think BlackBerry is cooking up something else.

    Posted via CB10
    11-14-14 07:47 PM
  2. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    I will need to have some hands-on with this thing. When I hear things like pop-out or fold-out I think snap-off. If they're making a hybrid device why not just stick with a regular slider like the 9810, but with BB10 and 2015 specs? 9810 was well built and sturdy.

    Posted via CB10
    The 9800/9810 was heavy, thick, and horrifically complicated.

    Posted from CB10 running on my awesome PASSPORT(!) 2BDDB50E
    11-14-14 09:11 PM
  3. hoonigan99's Avatar
    The 9800/9810 was heavy, thick, and horrifically complicated.

    Posted from CB10 running on my awesome PASSPORT(!) 2BDDB50E
    Heavy? Meh, this would also come down with modern materials. Thick? Yes, but this would come down as well, not to modern slab thin, but it would be reasonable, sliding is better than bending. Horrifically Complicated? Please explain, because from a user point of view it was not at all complicated.

    BB for Life
    Mecca EL and KCSFINEST like this.
    11-15-14 01:10 PM
  4. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    From a user point of view, no, the 9800 wasn't complicated. Try taking one apart, though.

    MUCH harder to build and repair. Much more likely to require repair due to that heavy weight and complicated mechanism.

    The Visa concept has a much simpler mechanism.

    Posted from CB10 running on my awesome PASSPORT(!) 2BDDB50E
    BryanVilla likes this.
    11-15-14 08:06 PM
  5. mycj7's Avatar
    With Chen's recent comments about not building a 5" slab phone unless it's something different.
    What if the Victoria/Visa was the same phone? What if the top row was an e-ink display of keys? It could change when the keyboard is closed to effectively be a full touch screen with normal on screen virtual keyboard with quick keys for call end, answer, contacts, back, home etc. Then this phone would both me a slab phone and a keyboard phone. Satisfies 2 groups at the same time. Use it as a slab, use it as a slider/folder.

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by mycj7; 11-16-14 at 11:18 AM.
    11-16-14 11:06 AM
  6. gebco's Avatar
    With Chen's recent comments about not building a 5" slab phone unless it's something different.
    What if the Victoria/Visa was the same phone? What if the top row was an e-ink display of keys? It could change when the keyboard is closed to effectively be a full touch screen with normal on screen virtual keyboard with quick keys for call end, answer, contacts, back, home etc. Then this phone would both me a slab phone and a keyboard phone. Satisfies 2 groups at the same time. Use it as a slab, use it as a slider/folder.

    Posted via CB10
    That would be interesting. Perhaps one of the keys could also be a track pad.

    Posted via CB10
    11-16-14 11:25 AM
  7. RyanGermann's Avatar
    I agree completely, but for some reason, the vast majority of CB feels that a 9810 slider would be DOA because it's an antiquated form factor.
    I actually think it is just a vocal minority... and to that minority I say that if the Passport was a device that grows on you, that you have to use for a while to appreciate, the the same can be said for a Torch 10: a device the size of the z30 having the power of the Passport with the toolbelt and hotkey features of the Classic, as a portrait slider is the Jesus BlackBerry 10 device... but I get for some that it isn't their cup of tea and that they can't imagine the utility that a portrait slider can provide.... but for those like me, ex Torch users, we absolutely get it and for me, an outright purchase price of even $900 would not be too high.

    I'm typing this on a Passport, by the way, and the touch sensitive keyboard is no replacement for the trackpad, for a simple reason: as a multi-mode device, one must wrestle with the Passport keyboard or use two hands to use it for text selection, but a trackpad is always ready to accept precision swipe gestures and single-pixel clicks, something that this new device will also have difficulty with.

    Posted via CB10
    Mecca EL and iamagod like this.
    11-24-14 07:28 AM
  8. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    I'm skeptical about sliders for a bunch of reasons. The 9800 was an attractive phone, to be sure, but it was also way heavier and thicker than most phones now. It also had an amazingly complex mechanism that made it much more expensive to manufacture. Even worse, that greater weight meant the phone was even more prone to damage if dropped, and that complex mechanism left the phone more vulnerable.

    I estimate that the 9800 probably cost 30% more to build than, say, the Storm 2.

    I agree that the Passport is a novel design, but as unusual as it is, it still doesn't require the user to make as many compromises as the 9800 did.

    Posted from CB10 running on my awesome PASSPORT(!) 2BDDB50E
    11-25-14 05:29 AM
  9. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    Heavy? Meh, this would also come down with modern materials. Thick? Yes, but this would come down as well, not to modern slab thin, but it would be reasonable, sliding is better than bending. Horrifically Complicated? Please explain, because from a user point of view it was not at all complicated.

    BB for Life
    Try taking one apart.

    As an end user, you may not care, but a manufacturer does because it makes the assembly process more expensive.

    The fold-out kb we've seen in drawings is much simpler mechanically, and would be easier to replace in the event of damage.

    Posted from CB10 running on my awesome PASSPORT(!) 2BDDB50E
    11-25-14 05:33 AM
  10. hoonigan99's Avatar
    Try taking one apart.

    As an end user, you may not care, but a manufacturer does because it makes the assembly process more expensive.

    The fold-out kb we've seen in drawings is much simpler mechanically, and would be easier to replace in the event of damage.

    Posted from CB10 running on my awesome PASSPORT(!) 2BDDB50E
    I have not ever taken one apart, so yes this may be difficult, but what how much repair/replacement is really necessary.

    Most phones will only break a screen, so if this could be replaced as easily as most phones then it is a non-issue. Next would probably be speakers or charge ports, which would similarly need to be reasonably easy to replace. But beyond that your probably looking at a new phone anyways. I understand that these components may be difficult to change, but then you must consider that this new mechanism is more likely to fail itself and would require replacement (which would likely be quite expensive compared to screens/speakers etc.) Another problem with this new mechanism is that if it gets damaged it could also damage the main phone frame where it mounts, which may require an even more expensive repair.

    BB for Life
    11-25-14 03:32 PM
  11. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    There's two problems with mechanical complexity. The first isn't visible to the consumer but it's the challenge of building a soild, reliable mechanism. That adds quite a bit to the production cost because of the greater number of parts and added production steps. Which costs the manufacturer more and further means they charge YOU more.

    The second problem comes if the device needs work after purchase. Yes, screens are the most likely part to replace, and much more difficult on a 9800 than, say, a Z10. Just about EVERYTHING is much harder to work on.

    Posted from CB10 running on my awesome PASSPORT(!) 2BDDB50E
    11-25-14 07:25 PM
  12. hoonigan99's Avatar
    There's two problems with mechanical complexity. The first isn't visible to the consumer but it's the challenge of building a soild, reliable mechanism. That adds quite a bit to the production cost because of the greater number of parts and added production steps. Which costs the manufacturer more and further means they charge YOU more.

    The second problem comes if the device needs work after purchase. Yes, screens are the most likely part to replace, and much more difficult on a 9800 than, say, a Z10. Just about EVERYTHING is much harder to work on.

    Posted from CB10 running on my awesome PASSPORT(!) 2BDDB50E
    Alright, alright. Solution:
    Give us spec'd out slider, charge premium price, and debut BBCare similar to carrier insurance, anything happens you pay a deductible and they send you a new one.

    A premium price on a slider would likely not hurt sales very much, because anyone who wants one, will pay the price since it's their only choice for that form (other than cheap burner phones)
    Then providing an insurance plan would also increase revenue, and allow them to retake broken ones, salvage parts/rebuild themselves.

    BB for Life
    RyanGermann and Mecca EL like this.
    11-26-14 09:47 AM
  13. RyanGermann's Avatar
    It also had an amazingly complex mechanism that made it much more expensive to manufacture. Even worse, that greater weight meant the phone was even more prone to damage if dropped, and that complex mechanism left the phone more vulnerable.
    EDIT I have disassembled the Torch, and compared to the single l-shaped circuit board in the Z10 EVERYTHING is "complicated". Any handheld that isn't a full-slab touchscreen is going to be complicated, and to that I say "so the eff what?" Simply charge more to cover the costs and let the market decide. The only complaint I EVER had about the Torch (and I was a fidgitter who would annoyingly slide unslide slide unslide my Torch constantly) was that it was TOO SMALL. The screen AND the keyboard. It NEVER EVER let me down mechanically, even though the stupid silver 'frosting' chipped off around the screen AFTER I DROPPED IT WITHOUT A CASE ON BARE CONCRETE AND IT DIDN'T BREAK.

    That's data, anecdotal, but still, there are lots of stories like mine, people who loved the Torch and the slider mechanism never ever broke. I had two, by the way, one for a personal line the other for a business line.

    There's two problems with mechanical complexity. The first isn't visible to the consumer but it's the challenge of building a soild, reliable mechanism. That adds quite a bit to the production cost because of the greater number of parts and added production steps. Which costs the manufacturer more and further means they charge YOU more.

    The second problem comes if the device needs work after purchase. Yes, screens are the most likely part to replace, and much more difficult on a 9800 than, say, a Z10. Just about EVERYTHING is much harder to work on.
    There is a school of thought that states that a popular smartphone MUST fall within a very narrow price range, and that the profit margins to the vendor MUST be a certain percentage, or the device is not viable.

    ...but there are numerous cases that absolutely defy these assumptions about the mobile handset market place. The existence of a 128 gigabyte iPhone 6 and the Galaxy Note 4 simply violate premises like these left and right. Don't get me started on the Porsche handsets.

    Your 30% figure is high, based on my research at iSuppli, and there's a simple solution to that problem: charge the customer a higher price for the device. Yes, that violates the "narrow price range" and "profit margin" assumptions that are common in smartphone market analysis, but those assumptions are downright stupid.

    If the Classic is a success, a small production run of BB10 "Torch" sliders would probably do great.

    A challenge, TB: name your price for the following device and ask who will pay it:

    Portrait slider, with full "tool belt".
    Processor as powerful as the Passports
    Full 4-row Classic BB keyboard.
    440 PPI 5" 16 x 9 screen = 1920 x 1080
    2 or 3 gig of RAM
    32 gigabytes internal storage.

    They're selling the Passport at $599, with very similar specs: the differences are the slider mechanism, the different screen, and the toolbelt. Is $799 enough of a price to cover the differences? I think so, and I'd buy that device even if it was $999, no without a word of a lie, but I know I'm not an average consumer, but then we're back to the fact that we live in a world with Porsche BlackBerry's that make no sense at all, so how about a premium device that ACTUALLY is premium?
    Mecca EL likes this.
    11-26-14 01:14 PM
  14. hoonigan99's Avatar

    A challenge, TB: name your price for the following device and ask who will pay it:

    Portrait slider, with full "tool belt".
    Processor as powerful as the Passports
    Full 4-row Classic BB keyboard.
    440 PPI 5" 16 x 9 screen = 1920 x 1080
    2 or 3 gig of RAM
    32 gigabytes internal storage.

    They're selling the Passport at $599, with very similar specs: the differences are the slider mechanism, the different screen, and the toolbelt. Is $799 enough of a price to cover the differences? I think so, and I'd buy that device even if it was $999, no without a word of a lie, but I know I'm not an average consumer, but then we're back to the fact that we live in a world with Porsche BlackBerry's that make no sense at all, so how about a premium device that ACTUALLY is premium?
    This is fair, and as a previous Torch user(and fanatic) I also never broke the mechanism, despite opening and closing it constantly, sometimes quite roughly. And dropping numerous times with only scratches on the body.

    I would absolutely pay 599 for a Torch with these specs, and probably at 799 as well. If spec'd similar to the passport it should be able to sell at that price point, we must consider that the Passport keyboard is likely more expensive than a traditional one. So this should allow for similar pricing.

    BB for Life
    Mecca EL likes this.
    11-26-14 03:04 PM
  15. Thunderbuck's Avatar
    All I can say is that a slider will need to either a) cost more or b) have a lower spec. The Visa/Victoria concept may be a way around this, though, because it's a simpler mechanism and BlackBerry can build a full-touch with many of the same components.

    Posted from CB10 running on my awesome PASSPORT(!) 2BDDB50E
    11-28-14 01:40 AM
  16. Bbnivende's Avatar
    I think the market for physical keyboard phones is so small that a slider, if made , would only cannibalise sales of the Classic.

    If I can get by with an all touch phone, just about anyone can (from a 9900).

    I think that BlackBerry made a mistake in making phones with a 1:1 screen. The Torch would have needed a 4 :3 screen to work well.

    Still I would love to see a BlackBerry slider. The Torch was so cool in its day.

    Posted via CB10
    11-28-14 02:34 AM
  17. RyanGermann's Avatar
    All I can say is that a slider will need to either a) cost more or b) have a lower spec. The Visa/Victoria concept may be a way around this, though, because it's a simpler mechanism and BlackBerry can build a full-touch with many of the same components.
    I've said it before: I agree with you on most things TB, but I really can't understand why you persist in making the "cost more / lower spec" point when I have tried repeatedly to explain why it's not a relevant point: it doesn't have to have a lower spec unless there is some absolutely inviolate rule that it can not cost more than XX dollars unsubsidized, which is a total fallacy, given the markup etc. on devices. SO WHAT IF IT HAS TO COST MORE? SO WHAT!!!!??? I admit it, I'm getting a bit frustrated with that... 'argument'... because I have seen many CrackBerry members "state" that a slider isn't viable because of what I have to call totally imaginary unproven "economic considerations".

    The idea that BB should make the Visa / Victoria thing with a Passport-like keyboard slider reminds me of the old "I dropped my keys over there in the bushes but I'm looking here on the porch because it's too dark over there" joke: the Passport's capacitive keyboard isn't a substitute for the 4 row "classic" BlackBerry keyboard and Trackpad combination.

    I like the Passport screen and power, but I only tolerate the 3-row keyboard and absence of Belt. It's just a stop along the way for me, and I still think about going back to my Z30 because the Passport has almost-but-not-quite killed one handed operation for me.

    Perhaps BlackBerry has adopted the strategy of smartphone vendors in general: create intriguing devices that are only 80% satisfying so people NOT be satisfied and will want to upgrade to the next intriguing device instead of settling in for years on a single device! They sell more devices that way (except to those who have settled on the 9900 and haven't seen a compelling reason to upgrade).

    ....which may be why the new BB10 Torch doesn't exist...

    ...because a BB10 Torch would cannibalize sales of ALL FUTURE SMARTPHONES! Then someone would have to come back in time and prevent the BB10 torch from being created due to the economic hardship it caused.

    I think the market for physical keyboard phones is so small that a slider, if made , would only cannibalise sales of the Classic.
    Time will tell, but I disagree. My opinion is that the market for 1:1 screen with keyboard devices is FAR smaller than 16 x 9 screen with keyboard, but it has to be a slider or the device will become ungainly and the center of gravity will be awkward, making the device hard to handle (again, my opinion,but without actually having one in my hand, it's hard to imagine with 100% "accuracy"). A BB device with a form factor like the iPhone + Typo keyboard is one possibility, but I think just about everyone thinks the extra length the Typo adds to the iPhone makes it ungainly for use as a daily driver.

    I don't think a 16 x 9 slider with a keyboard will cannibalize the Classic's sales significantly, any more than the Torch cannibalized the 9900's sales, but a 16 x 9 slider with keyboard would bring a lot of 16 x 9 screen lovers back to a keyboarded device.

    The closest thing in terms of form factor to a BB10 16 x 9 device with a keyboard is the Dell Venue Pro running Windows 7.8, and the form factor is excellent. Here's a picture:

    Attachment 250614

    I own one of these, and it's a nice little device, and while the keyboard isn't BlackBerry quality, it works OK: the annoying thing about the device is the capacitive buttons below the screen turn off and you can't see them so if they fixed that software bug, it would be a lot more useable.

    If I can get by with an all touch phone, just about anyone can (from a 9900).
    That doesn't go very far to explain why people still clutch on to their 9900s and why so many BBOS users are eyeing the Classic with curiosity and anticipation. If the assertion is that they haven't tried hard enough to adapt, I think we can agree that the result of that is people will still clutch their 9900s rather than be forced to adapt when they don't want to, even if, in the end, they could adapt. So, let's take away the perception that they have to adapt by giving them what they actually want.

    I think that BlackBerry made a mistake in making phones with a 1:1 screen. The Torch would have needed a 4:3 screen to work well.
    Do you mean the Classic?

    Still I would love to see a BlackBerry slider. The Torch was so cool in its day.
    I think it's still cool, but it runs an obsolete operating system. I'd like a device just like it running a modern operating system, hopefully BlackBerry 10. This makes perfect sense to me:

    BlackBerry Slider-13330247.jpg
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 11-28-14 at 11:04 AM.
    Mecca EL likes this.
    11-28-14 10:17 AM
  18. Meok's Avatar
    BlackBerry Slider-visa-real.png

    I think I got it cleared up better
    Mecca EL and Ealaionta like this.
    11-28-14 01:21 PM
  19. Bbnivende's Avatar
    They would have to reduce bezels at the top so that the fully extended device was not so long on a 16:9 device.

    I stopped using my 9900 because except for emailing / texting the 9900 was no longer adequate. Yes there are still many BBOS devices still in use but again these are mainly used in business / consumer for emailing.

    My comment about typing on a all touch device is really focusing on my own abilities. I never thought that I could do it... but I can. I do not see myself going back to a physical keyboard.

    I agree though I would rather use a slider with your Classic Bold keyboard than a Passport style keyboard.

    I am all about choice. Love to see a Slider join the line up as well as a 4.7 inch flagship all touch device. Personally, I have no interest in the new "Manitoba ".








    Posted via CB10
    RyanGermann likes this.
    11-29-14 03:13 AM
  20. twelvezero8's Avatar
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Visa Real.png 
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    I think I got it cleared up better
    Still don't get how it would work.

    Posted via CB10
    11-29-14 05:44 AM
  21. Mecca EL's Avatar
    If they build it... they will come!
    Attached Thumbnails BlackBerry Slider-blackberry-blade.jpg  
    11-29-14 05:46 AM
  22. RyanGermann's Avatar
    If there's one thing we should all take as fact now: the handset market at large doesn't mind huge devices. A Z30 sized screen with a slider and the tool belt on the bottom (in the place of the Z30's gold strip-of-nothingness) would not be too big when compared to other large and successful handsets. Would there be a market for a Z10 sized slider AND a Z30 sized slider? Is there a market for for a iPhone 6-sized iPhone 6 and a iPhone 6 Plus-sized iPhone 6? I think there is. If the same business model is adopted for the BB10 slider series as is being done for the Passport (modest / conservative initial production run, build to meet demand), but also acknowledging that there's nothing ELSE on the market that will steal customers of THIS device away i.e THERE ARE NO COMPETITORS for a belted BB10 slider: if a belted BB10 slider has been launched, and you decide you must have it, but BlackBerry hasn't yet produced enough devices to meet demand, BlackBerry needn't worry that you are going to run out and buy Samsung's next device in the mean time... you know, the one that that ISN'T a belted BB10 slider: BlackBerry knows you'll damn well wait until you CAN get your Belted BB10 slider, so they don't have to produce a million up front to ensure they don't "lose sales" to competitors.
    Last edited by RyanGermann; 01-02-15 at 04:24 PM.
    TylerXIII likes this.
    11-29-14 02:35 PM
  23. pttptppt's Avatar
    If they build it... they will come!
    I still don't understand why BlackBerry hasn't released this device yet. It's the perfect device

    Posted via CB10
    Mecca EL likes this.
    11-29-14 03:23 PM
  24. hoonigan99's Avatar
    If they build it... they will come!
    Thank you for bringing the Blade concept into this, that is truly a perfect imagining of a new bb10 slider. Whether or not it comes pre-bent lol.

    The curved idea could be interesting though, their making TVs like that now, it would command attention, and possesses a cool factor that just can't be touched. Although if you put it in your pocket the wrong way it'd look and feel strange I'm sure.

    BB for Life
    Mecca EL likes this.
    11-30-14 11:42 AM
  25. anon(8063781)'s Avatar
    I still don't understand why BlackBerry hasn't released this device yet. It's the perfect device

    Posted via CB10
    If they build it... they will come!
    I re-love this thing every time someone re-posts a pic! I imagine the curvature would make it expensive to produce, but I would likely shell out the cash... unless it was Porsche-design expensive.
    Mecca EL likes this.
    11-30-14 11:52 AM
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