10-13-12 08:31 AM
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  1. hurds's Avatar
    The trolls also know that they can pick on minute and irrelevant details from any response
    Totally agree with your post and the above part is so true. You can tell someone is trolling when they ignore the general idea of a post and pick out any small indiscrepency they can find to make it the focus on the argument.

    I think the development of the tablet OS/bb10 is even more impressive considering RIM also has released BB7 and 7.1 on ~6 new devices and now mobile fusion.
    missing_K-W and recompile like this.
    03-02-12 03:23 PM
  2. goku_vegeta's Avatar
    You have to admit that the guy has some valid points. One of the points of PlayBook was the compatibility with Android apps, which alleviates the "this thing has no apps" problem

    BlackBerryX will be a completely new environment, and while I like to hope for the best, perhaps it won't be backwards compatible with current Java-based apps, much like PlayStation 3. Compatibility layers would be nice, but I don't hold much hope

    The presence of apps influences casual customers.

    What I want to know is whether RIM is aiming for casual market that iPhone and Android is fighting for or the enterprise market? They're losing the battle on both sides, and I think it should be better to focus on one side first

    And I hope the simulator for that is not resource hungry

    And for Christ's sake, I DO hope that BlackBerryX simulator does not have to go through a painful 5 minute boot up just to run a Hello world
    Yes I agree he does have SOME points that are relevant. Android is being "emulated" (for lack of a better term) when you have that type of "emulation" things will not always work as intended. The more technology inclined users will attempt to find workarounds or some may even try to write their own code. Either way my point with the Android on PlayBook situation is that not every application will work, due to the fact of the method of implementation.


    The PlayBook is probably better suited for the enterprise market due to the security it offers compared with others. There is a multitude of reasons why the PlayBook didn't get the rush of sales the iPad did when it was first announced, I can go into more detail, although I'd rather do that upon request
    03-02-12 03:53 PM
  3. kennyliu's Avatar
    Sorry, but I feel maybe I should step in to explain. Hard real-time OS is not really a big thing. Even linux have kernel extensions to do such things, which I personally have used to create voice call routing systems (which needs to super-multitask with zero-lag).

    What's great and unique about QNX is that it is both a Real-time OS, and a Micro-kernel OS. Micro-kernel OS keeps everything separate, providing high security and allowing high stability as even drivers cannot take-down the core when they crash (allowing the core to restart just about anything without rebooting). That is why QNX is so popular in military circles to power even the aviation systems dashboards/controls and why FIPS government-security certification was a no brainer. (Also: BOEING next-gen aircrafts - Go read more on wikipedia).

    Wonder why Blackberry Playbook OTA update is so easy and fundamentally awesome? It's the same principles of QNX microkernel which enabled this. And no, there is no other company out there which has a viable and proven Realtime+Mircrokernel alternative, which should give us "Insanely Stable & Smooth Multitasking". (No it has nothing to do with battery life.)

    My only worry is that blackberry is making QNX's power and potential dumbed down. By right the Playbook OS 2.0 should not have required a restart/reboot (if they used a true microkernel updating). NO REBOOT UPDATES! Isn't that brain-wrecking or what?

    Now... what does all these means to app developers? Other than an amazing technical feat, absolutely nothing.
    I already said this, but let's try again. Consumers do NOT care if the OS runs aircrafts and is used in military vehicles as much as you think. Besides, you are talking about the core of QNX and not about PBOS and BB10 that has layers of other stuff on top of it (e.g. Air, Flash, whatnot). At its current state, PBOS is as INSANELY STABLE as any other OS (browser crashes and occasional need to reboot are an example) and allows as smooth multitasking as desktop OSs and soon a tablet OS (Win 8).

    QNX may have nice properties, but it all depends on the execution. Plus, without content, there is no way for the platform to succeed.

    If you disagree with me, offer RIM to have an advertisement campaign that would say "Buy BB10/PBOS products because QNX is used in aircrafts and power plants. It has a microkernel structure and is ROTS. This is what's important. You shouldn't really be wanting anything else (no apps, no basic functionality, occasional glitches are OK, etc.). Just the mere knowledge of the THEORETICAL advantages of QNX will do" And then, see how successful that campaign will be

    So you, guys, are still talking about the unrealized/theoretical potential, which may be there, but...
    Last edited by kennyliu; 03-02-12 at 05:25 PM.
    03-02-12 05:21 PM
  4. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    Kennyliu, I don't know about you, but I routinely check to make sure all electronics I own can power Mars Rovers.

    You should see my toothbrush. That bad boy can juice entire cities.

    Mobile post via Tapatalk
    kennyliu likes this.
    03-02-12 05:39 PM
  5. recompile's Avatar
    If you disagree with me, offer RIM to have an advertisement campaign that would say "Buy BB10/PBOS products because QNX is used in aircrafts and power plants. It has a microkernel structure and is ROTS. This is what's important. You shouldn't really be wanting anything else (no apps, no basic functionality, occasional glitches are OK, etc.). Just the mere knowledge of the THEORETICAL advantages of QNX will do" And then, see how successful that campaign will be
    Why wouldn't that be successful? Blackberry's software is used in nuclear plants, aircraft, and other places where 100% reliability is critical. Now you have access to that same reliability when working on the go or giving presentations -- the reliability that you've always needed.

    RIM promoting one of their best unique features seems like a great idea to me.
    heri16 likes this.
    03-02-12 05:47 PM
  6. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    Damned ... One hour of reading, trying to get the most essential facts, thanks to posters.
    I must say I am balanced between the technical points and the communication ones.

    But I can't forget what Kevin said ("do not expect too much"), weeks ago. When he wrote that I was myself pretty unsatisfied to read it, almost upset. Then came 2.0, I liked it a lot, but no true love, just a "here we are, now ready for the warm up". I guess this is what it is, for us - users - with a fair and reliable experience, and for devs, with a concrete basement, missing some productivity and assembly tools. All of us can explore, with PB, a taste of OS10 honey.

    Yet not 100% satisfying.

    Now, RIM can't fail, more, they need momentum: godzilla size.
    New OS, new hardware (PB+phones), new U.I, new server architecture, new dev environment (UI:Cascade).
    I believe they want to put it all together and blow stronger than Maceo and be sexiest than Candy. If they succeed, I swear I'll dance all night long.

    But if you can't wait ...
    [YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t-BZ4UI8pI[/YT]
    Last edited by Superfly_FR; 03-02-12 at 05:53 PM.
    kennyliu and heri16 like this.
    03-02-12 05:48 PM
  7. hurds's Avatar
    I think we'll see in a year, maybe 2 or 3 just how relevant all this RIM doesn't have enough apps and content stuff. I realise its a big talking point for a lot of posters but RIM has considerably closed the gap, I don't see the other platforms making any considerable gains, and I don't see a roadmap for creating the social, multi-tasking and notifications integration RIM has planned for their apps. The cascades UI could be a differentiator as well.
    03-02-12 07:17 PM
  8. guzprom's Avatar
    I like where all discussion is going. Real developers and users chipping in. Cascade seems to be the bridge between developers and rim. As for all other users who think its already great as it is with qnx and its aircraft/nuclear controler low layer.. your enthusiasm is great But it won't attract developers. And as I read the news.. As a side note.. Another rim director boast qnx device in Barcelona, director Stephen bates. Even if he is right, Is it a good idea to do that when Samsung etc shows off new devices..
    heri16 likes this.
    03-02-12 07:38 PM
  9. guzprom's Avatar
    Sorry, but I feel maybe I should step in to explain. Hard real-time OS is not really a big thing. Even linux have kernel extensions to do such things, which I personally have used to create voice call routing systems (which needs to super-multitask with zero-lag).

    What's great and unique about QNX is that it is both a Real-time OS, and a Micro-kernel OS. Micro-kernel OS keeps everything separate, providing high security and allowing high stability as even drivers cannot take-down the core when they crash ...

    Wonder why Blackberry Playbook OTA update is so easy and fundamentally awesome? It's the same principles of QNX microkernel which enabled this. And no, there is no other company out there which has a viable and proven Realtime+Mircrokernel alternative, which should give us "Insanely Stable & Smooth Multitasking". (No it has nothing to do with battery life.)

    My only worry is that blackberry is making QNX's power and potential dumbed down. By right the Playbook OS 2.0 should not have required a restart/reboot (if they used a true microkernel updating). NO REBOOT UPDATES! Isn't that brain-wrecking or what?

    Now... what does all these means to app developers? Other than an amazing technical feat, absolutely nothing.
    You've answered pretty much the first question I asked and repeat. It is potentially a secure and reliable OS because of the isolation of the kernel and Hard Real Time combined? sounds great Batterywise its not a plus then?
    I also believe for developers it means nothing unless given ease of use in libraries api's sdk, friendier programming environment. Very informative. Thanks.
    03-02-12 07:52 PM
  10. guzprom's Avatar
    @Heri16 &footose

    ..

    I am by no means naive to to lack of GUI components in the NDK. This is currently the Achilles Heel of the platform.
    Excellent. I was afraid you will never see a shortcoming in RIM. They need to be pushed beyond their limit, not just praises and patting. But hard reality to make themselves better for us.
    heri16 likes this.
    03-02-12 07:59 PM
  11. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    Just a question to OS specialists about battery life and coding :
    Isn't QNX hardware abstracted ?
    I thought this was precisely what the [rumored] BB10 phones new T.I OMAP5 was about ?
    "don't worry about consumption, the hardware does it better than you can code it" or such ...
    Hands-on demo with TI's OMAP5 platform at MWC (video) -- Engadget
    03-02-12 08:22 PM
  12. heri16's Avatar
    Just a question to OS specialists about battery life and coding :
    Isn't QNX hardware abstracted ?
    I thought this was precisely what the [rumored] BB10 phones new T.I OMAP5 was about ?
    "don't worry about consumption, the hardware does it better than you can code it" or such ...
    Hands-on demo with TI's OMAP5 platform at MWC (video) -- Engadget
    You brought up a nice point. Abstraction can be done on other platforms, but is indeed the core strength of microkernel QNX. So strong that in fact you should be confident that it runs on just about any hardware. I wouldn't be surprised if someone managed to port Playbook OS on an iPod Touch, or other android hardware, or even inside a television! (Nothing is hardcoded into the kernel, everything including camera/cellular drivers, are user-swappable without any hacking.)

    That explains the confidence that RIM has that everything they made thus far on the playbook will run the same on smaller BB10 phones (without them having to do any extensive tweaks). Problem is, abstraction adds computational costs, and this means a hit on either battery-life, or offloading some sandbox/virtualization instructions onto some dedicated hardware extensions on the CPU (e.g. from Texas Instruments).

    Only then can BB10 phones be super, yet have a great battery life. Of course Apple is going the other way, by optimizing the kernel itself to be very very very frugal, and not allowing any developer to break their rules/guidelines, by exposing "fill-in-the-blanks" templates as APIs.)

    Either way, both sides have a good strategy. But I'm just worried that RIM's way is more convoluted and less elegant (just like how Steve Jobs autobiography explains it: The text marquee/animation on the Apple II screen, did not require some special hardware chip. But Bill Gates insisted it did!).

    RIM just needs more enthusiasts to spread the word. And more crazy developers (from MIT or George Tech or other places), to create crazy demos like augmented reality on the playbook. I'm personally thinking of porting over the Xbox Kinect drivers. (Interested devs, please contact me.)
    missing_K-W likes this.
    03-04-12 07:19 AM
  13. heri16's Avatar
    Excellent. I was afraid you will never see a shortcoming in RIM. They need to be pushed beyond their limit, not just praises and patting. But hard reality to make themselves better for us.
    Ok, we need not just more CrackBerry Abusers, but also more Blackberry Abusers. (But just don't let the media hear a wind. Make these shortfalls an internal bickering, cos they are doing great on HTML5 side.)
    03-04-12 07:22 AM
  14. heri16's Avatar
    missing_K-W. Your arguments would sound more believable if we did actually have the features that you tout available now. Otherwise, all this is UNREALIZED potential.

    I am just tired of hearing about QNX being the alien technology and the savior of the mankind. It may be something that has nice properties other .nix, NT, etc platforms don't have, but those properties are irrelevant unless they are realized and actually benefit the end-user (consumer or enterprise). As it currently is:

    - QNX is as stable as any other OS I have used (app/software crashes and force closes are present in all major platforms, including PBOS). And knowing that QNX runs the North American nuclear power grid doesn't really alleviate the problem.

    - Security. This may be important to enterprises but for me .... I am no CIA agent and don't care much about FIPS certification (that by the way is granted to other tablets as well, not the same level, but still). However, try explaining how bullet proof QNX is to enterprises who know that rooting is possible.

    - Power management. See above. Not bad, but nothing phenomenal even with the huge 5,300 MAh battery.

    - Ease of development. Sorry but it's only the ease now, no development.

    Again, my point is, as of now, the only tangible advantage to the PBOS (and possibly BB10) for me, the consumer, is the UI. But the UI is not unique to QNX (in fact it's a copy of webOS) and new players are introducing some of the PBOS UI elements, e.g. Windows 8 and iOS with touch/bezel gestures and gesture controls.
    Hi Kenny, I agree with your point of view.

    But there is just one point I need to clarify. Microkernel does not stop developers from writing bad application code, neither does it stop these apps from crashing. Instead it has a "crash early, and try again" paradigm, such that no application crash should ever prevent you from returning to the main screen and killing it. When an application hangs, the OS cannot "hang" and become unresponsive also.

    Now tell me whether there is such a thing on Android.

    RIM just needs to expose a proper API, such that there will be zero loss of data when something crashes, and the application can resume from a crash and make users smile.
    missing_K-W likes this.
    03-04-12 07:32 AM
  15. missing_K-W's Avatar
    Hi Kenny, I agree with your point of view.

    But there is just one point I need to clarify. Microkernel does not stop developers from writing bad application code, neither does it stop these apps from crashing. Instead it has a "crash early, and try again" paradigm, such that no application crash should ever prevent you from returning to the main screen and killing it. When an application hangs, the OS cannot "hang" and become unresponsive also.

    Now tell me whether there is such a thing on Android.

    RIM just needs to expose a proper API, such that there will be zero loss of data when something crashes, and the application can resume from a crash and make users smile.
    That my friend is brilliant! You should email your suggestions to the ears at RIM...your knowledge is of an endearing quality
    03-07-12 06:39 PM
  16. coreb's Avatar
    RIM just needs to expose a proper API, such that there will be zero loss of data when something crashes, and the application can resume from a crash and make users smile.
    Actually they are trying to educate devs on how to properly do something like that in this example code for the Good Citizen app.
    03-09-12 01:23 PM
  17. missing_K-W's Avatar
    The SDK's are coming along great. The next major move is to Bring BB10 beyond the consumer/enterprise segment and open the SDK's for military, industry, aerospace and medical
    10-08-12 03:44 PM
  18. missing_K-W's Avatar
    Can a mod move this thread to the BB10 OS forum where it will be better served. Thanks
    10-08-12 03:48 PM
  19. elliott436's Avatar
    Rimpire Strikes Back is all i can say!!!
    10-13-12 08:31 AM
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