05-02-19 08:05 PM
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  1. joeldf's Avatar
    I actually came real close to pulling the trigger on a Priv, after waiting on the right time to upgrade from my Z10.

    But just when I was ready, AT&T suddenly stopped offering the Priv... anywhere. Kept that Z10 for another year and a half before moving to the S8.

    What's weird is that AT&T sold the Priv for less that a year (or seemed like it). From November 2015 to sometime around the Summer of 2016 - just after the world-wide Priv dump of 2016.

    Yet, AT&T started selling the KeyOne in September of 2017, and can still be bought from AT&T online to this day - a year and a half later.
    04-18-19 04:21 PM
  2. RLeeSimon's Avatar
    If worldwide roll-out is so costly, why don't they hand out a small run to some of us first to find the curly hairs ?
    04-18-19 04:33 PM
  3. baldy3577's Avatar
    Their is a huge difference in component retail and as part of a complete device. A replacement screen for a KEY2 might be $80 retail, but only cost BBMo $15. But it takes much more money to sell that complete device and support it in a global market. I have no doubt you might find that same screen for $20 at some fair. You aren't going to find a KEY2 that can be used in 100's of markets, has a warranty and support system and will get updates for the next three years...

    By most account Huawei is selling phones for $15 - $20 over cost... based on volume - something that BBMo doesn't have.
    Oh you're right! It's just some small fair. Like a flea market or a bazar...with fold up tables and free parking on Sundays.

    I guess 1,185,000+ square meters of space and being the longest running tradeshow with over 60,000 manufacturers is just some tradeshow.

    Ignorance is bliss. You just proved that point.

    The statement I made with regard to this ever evolving, oversaturated market was to illustrate the fact that a simple upgrade to a flagship could present BBMo / TCL an opportunity to earn "halo device" status since they clearly saw the value and invested in the BlackBerry brand. An open space in the segment they could fill. Support, design, warranty, certification, patents, etc. are all a cost of business. Heck, we've paid over 20K USD to get UL certification per product, so I do know first hand of the costs involved with bringing a consumer product to market from conception.

    I'm not sure why having a point of view or making suggestions for a product evolve into the need for combative, belittling replies.
    04-19-19 03:42 AM
  4. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Oh you're right! It's just some small fair. Like a flea market or a bazar...with fold up tables and free parking on Sundays.

    I guess 1,185,000+ square meters of space and being the longest running tradeshow with over 60,000 manufacturers is just some tradeshow.

    Ignorance is bliss. You just proved that point.

    The statement I made with regard to this ever evolving, oversaturated market was to illustrate the fact that a simple upgrade to a flagship could present BBMo / TCL an opportunity to earn "halo device" status since they clearly saw the value and invested in the BlackBerry brand. An open space in the segment they could fill. Support, design, warranty, certification, patents, etc. are all a cost of business. Heck, we've paid over 20K USD to get UL certification per product, so I do know first hand of the costs involved with bringing a consumer product to market from conception.

    I'm not sure why having a point of view or making suggestions for a product evolve into the need for combative, belittling replies.
    I wasn't trying to belittle you.... sorry if you felt that I was.

    But I don't see how the size of the trade show matters?

    You say you know the cost, but you also say that BBMo should be able to sell their devices cheaper.

    I feel like, yes they ought to be cheaper. But in the end I'm making comparisons to devices that have less security, less long term support and most importantly a lot more units being moved to cost like those.

    I do look at devices like the Cosmo Communicator - and wonder why can't BBMo do better on price and specs. But that's like wondering why an Apple doesn't taste like an Orange....

    It's been two year now, and four devices.... and I have doubts about BlackBerry and BBMo continuing the program. So no I don't think they are getting rich. And I assume the have more data on the potential of sales and the affect the price has on that potential, than any of us has.
    04-19-19 08:33 AM
  5. Bbnivende's Avatar
    BBmo could make a profit while absorbing the BlackBerry fee if they could sell such a device at the price level of a Key2. To sell an all touch phone at that price level, the phone would have to be much much better than their current best Alcaltel. TCL has seemingly decided to improve their Alcaltel line up rather than go the BlackBerry route. To sell a phone at a premium price they need premium hardware.
    Last edited by Bbnivende; 04-19-19 at 10:40 AM.
    04-19-19 10:18 AM
  6. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    BBmo could make a profit while absorbing the BlackBerry fee if they could sell such a device at the price level of a Key2. To sell an all touch phone at that price level, the phone would have to be much much better than their current best Alcaltel. TCL has seemingly decided to improve their Alcaltel line up rather than go the BlackBerry route. To sell a phone at a premium price they need premium hardware.
    BBTax is approximately VKB/$100 and PKB/$150 with the mid-tier specs. That’s as good as it will ever get for BB and BBMo licensing arrangement for current situation. Consumers have shown that PKB with BBAndroid is just a niche and profitability is not certain.

    Since BBTax has never been VKB successful going back 10 years through BBOS then BB10 and BBAndroid eventually we have to accept the BlackBerry name is a disadvantage in the slab market. It’s comparable to licensing the Kleenex brand for selling aluminum foil.
    04-19-19 12:34 PM
  7. Bbnivende's Avatar
    BBTax is approximately VKB/$100 and PKB/$150 with the mid-tier specs. That’s as good as it will ever get for BB and BBMo licensing arrangement for current situation. Consumers have shown that PKB with BBAndroid is just a niche and profitability is not certain.

    Since BBTax has never been VKB successful going back 10 years through BBOS then BB10 and BBAndroid eventually we have to accept the BlackBerry name is a disadvantage in the slab market. It’s comparable to licensing the Kleenex brand for selling aluminum foil.
    That is 100 bucks at retail. The wholesale fee can be absorbed somewhat when you get into the price point of the best One Plus or say a Google Pixel. All phones need a skin and good Android devices must meet the Google standards for OS updates and encryption.

    I think it is doable but TCL does not have the technical know how to make a Pixel etc at any price point. At least as it stands today. The brand name is secondary to the quality and value of the phone.
    04-19-19 12:47 PM
  8. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    That is 100 bucks at retail. The wholesale fee can be absorbed somewhat when you get into the price point of the best One Plus or say a Google Pixel. All phones need a skin and good Android devices must meet the Google standards for OS updates and encryption.

    I think it is doable but TCL does not have the technical know how to make a Pixel etc at any price point. At least as it stands today. The brand name is secondary to the quality and value of the phone.
    They have enough technical know how to know they don’t have the economies of scale in combination with the budget to develop any brand. Electronics have been good to some OEMs like TCL in other products, however, the smartphone OEM arena isn’t there for them unless they can better their image perception in the Western countries. Their national counterparts haven’t done anything but hurt them in this respect.
    04-19-19 01:03 PM
  9. Bbnivende's Avatar
    They have enough technical know how to know they don’t have the economies of scale in combination with the budget to develop any brand. Electronics have been good to some OEMs like TCL in other products, however, the smartphone OEM arena isn’t there for them unless they can better their image perception in the Western countries. Their national counterparts haven’t done anything but hurt them in this respect.
    TCL actually has overcapacity with their own factories and they make some of their own parts. They need to make more phones and move up from entry level prepaid phones.

    The fact that they can't manage to make a decent camera and software skin etc speaks to their lack of smartphone prowess - at this time.

    Currently, TCL is only in a position to make a rebadged Alcatel similar to their Dtek models. Limited sales would not warrant the effort.
    04-19-19 04:28 PM
  10. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    TCL actually has overcapacity with their own factories and they make some of their own parts. They need to make more phones and move up from entry level prepaid phones.

    The fact that they can't manage to make a decent camera and software skin etc speaks to their lack of smartphone prowess - at this time.

    Currently, TCL is only in a position to make a rebadged Alcatel similar to their Dtek models. Limited sales would not warrant the effort.
    They were a volume OEM previously and simply appear to be sending their economic resources towards other products. The fact that phones are made by a partially owned subsidiary, TCT, also suggests management believes there are better areas to deploy economic resources.

    One strong possibility is TCL is focusing on sectors where it's dominant instead of areas that offer lower ROI and secondary or tertiary standing at best.
    04-19-19 06:09 PM
  11. Bbnivende's Avatar
    Well TCL Communications say they are ready to take on the world. In their own words:

    "As a global mobile device manufacturer, TCL Communication has reached world class standard in terms of innovation competence, production facilities and quality control systems. The company owned 9 global R&D centers located in Silicon Valley, Paris, Shanghai, Beijing, Ningbo, Huizhou, Shenzhen, Chengdu and Hong Kong. With many dedicated research projects and development equipment, the company has become one of the few companies in the world who owns or licenses 2G, 2.5G, 2.75G, 3G, 4G and 5G patented technologies. TCL Communication owned a global factory located in Huizhou, and its capacity reaches 120 Million units per year. With possess a world leading SMT production line and MMI automatic testing system, the factory has become one of the largest and efficient single production sites in China, and the powerful, efficient global supply chain system can help to keep its advantages in both quality and cost. Meanwhile, TCL Communication has established a consummate quality management system, which has certificates of ISO9001, ISO14001, OHSAS18001, SA8000, TL9000 and GSV and meets the requirement of QC08"
    04-19-19 07:34 PM
  12. Bbnivende's Avatar
    They have enough technical know how to know they don’t have the economies of scale in combination with the budget to develop any brand. Electronics have been good to some OEMs like TCL in other products, however, the smartphone OEM arena isn’t there for them unless they can better their image perception in the Western countries. Their national counterparts haven’t done anything but hurt them in this respect.
    Found this article - maybe if Verizon gets on board, we could possibly see a Rebadged Alcatel BlackBerry all touch?

    https://www.androidheadlines.com/201...agreement.html


    Aside from Alcatel, TCL Communications is also one of the tech firms that manufacture Blackberry-branded handsets. Verizon already sold BlackBerry devices before, specifically the BlackBerry KEY2 LE. However, when it launched on the company’s stores, only the carrier’s enterprise and small business customers can get a hold of the handset. There is a possibility that the new deal will result in more widespread availability of BlackBerry handsets, allowing additional customers to get a hold of the devices.
    04-20-19 09:50 AM
  13. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Found this article - maybe if Verizon gets on board, we could possibly see a Rebadged Alcatel BlackBerry all touch?

    https://www.androidheadlines.com/201...agreement.html


    Aside from Alcatel, TCL Communications is also one of the tech firms that manufacture Blackberry-branded handsets. Verizon already sold BlackBerry devices before, specifically the BlackBerry KEY2 LE. However, when it launched on the company’s stores, only the carrier’s enterprise and small business customers can get a hold of the handset. There is a possibility that the new deal will result in more widespread availability of BlackBerry handsets, allowing additional customers to get a hold of the devices.
    I saw that also but it sounds like more of the low price Alcatel phones sold by AT&T, T-MOBILE and MVNOs lately. I'm happy for Alcatel or BBMo licensed and carrier sold but it doesn't change the fact that as OEM, TCL doesn't seem to support TCT with the fervor and resources it needs to succeed in mobile.
    04-20-19 12:04 PM
  14. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Found this article - maybe if Verizon gets on board, we could possibly see a Rebadged Alcatel BlackBerry all touch?

    https://www.androidheadlines.com/201...agreement.html


    Aside from Alcatel, TCL Communications is also one of the tech firms that manufacture Blackberry-branded handsets. Verizon already sold BlackBerry devices before, specifically the BlackBerry KEY2 LE. However, when it launched on the company’s stores, only the carrier’s enterprise and small business customers can get a hold of the handset. There is a possibility that the new deal will result in more widespread availability of BlackBerry handsets, allowing additional customers to get a hold of the devices.
    Verizon still isn't selling the KEY2 LE.... it's been three months, and still no sign of what is now over six month old phone. (Rumor is JUNE - but the timing is just so strange - Announce an already old phone long before you plan to offer it.... )

    Possibility of a new deal... ?

    My guess is the $100 Alcatel AVALON would be a $300 BlackBerry.... that would be an even more crappy phone with the HUB trying to run on it's 2GB of RAM and a SD425.

    Have you seen the specs on Avalon? 200 PPI LCD Dispaly, WiFi N, No auto focus... talk about basic.

    BBMo would have to upgrade the hardware... (make it match the KEY2 LE as a minimum) in the end you'd have a $400 phone.... that would be hard to sell with the almost flagship Moto Z3 at $480.

    But then Verizon is also Selling TCL's Palm phone along side TCL's Alcatel phone.... so who know what they'll do next. I'd have never expected them to offer that Palm Slab... but then I bet they are wishing that they hadn't. I wonder if the Avalon was picked up to meet some volume requirement that the Palm failed to meet...
    04-22-19 10:17 AM
  15. Bbnivende's Avatar
    Verizon still isn't selling the KEY2 LE.... it's been three months, and still no sign of what is now over six month old phone. (Rumor is JUNE - but the timing is just so strange - Announce an already old phone long before you plan to offer it.... )

    Possibility of a new deal... ?

    My guess is the $100 Alcatel AVALON would be a $300 BlackBerry.... that would be an even more crappy phone with the HUB trying to run on it's 2GB of RAM and a SD425.

    Have you seen the specs on Avalon? 200 PPI LCD Dispaly, WiFi N, No auto focus... talk about basic.

    BBMo would have to upgrade the hardware... (make it match the KEY2 LE as a minimum) in the end you'd have a $400 phone.... that would be hard to sell with the almost flagship Moto Z3 at $480.

    But then Verizon is also Selling TCL's Palm phone along side TCL's Alcatel phone.... so who know what they'll do next. I'd have never expected them to offer that Palm Slab... but then I bet they are wishing that they hadn't. I wonder if the Avalon was picked up to meet some volume requirement that the Palm failed to meet...
    I was not thinking of a cheap alcatel model upgraded to a BlackBerry.

    TCL all touch phones have to work well, including the camera and be more reliable to be considered for the BlackBerry upgrade.
    04-22-19 01:43 PM
  16. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    I was not thinking of a cheap alcatel model upgraded to a BlackBerry.

    TCL all touch phones have to work well, including the camera and be more reliable to be considered for the BlackBerry upgrade.
    So which Alcatel model were you thinking of? Think the Alcatel 3 (2019) is their current flagship, can be had for $200 now. Cheap is all they do now...

    We really have no clue where premium Alcatel device would be priced at this point, as it's been a number of years since they made one. Back then they were selling 80 million units (not all smartphones) a year, today it's around 30 million.

    Anyway.... Aurora, Motion, Evolve (rumored Evolve X). That's where the BlackBerry Tax falls, and that's why it not realistic to expect another Slab.
    04-22-19 02:07 PM
  17. Bbnivende's Avatar
    I think that TCL has realized that they have to develop and provide the same services for their Alcatel phones that they were going to buy from BlackBerry. It probably makes no sense to make a BlackBerry VKB.

    Starting on January 31st, 2019, Google will require that all security mandatory devices receive these updates. Manufacturers have to patch flaws identified by Google within a specific timeframe. By the end of each month, covered devices must be protected against all vulnerabilities identified more than 90 days ago.


    I was not aware of the above change until today.
    04-22-19 10:04 PM
  18. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    I think that TCL has realized that they have to develop and provide the same services for their Alcatel phones that they were going to buy from BlackBerry. It probably makes no sense to make a BlackBerry VKB.

    Starting on January 31st, 2019, Google will require that all security mandatory devices receive these updates. Manufacturers have to patch flaws identified by Google within a specific timeframe. By the end of each month, covered devices must be protected against all vulnerabilities identified more than 90 days ago.


    I was not aware of the above change until today.
    If that is the case... I would expect more small OEMs like TCL would be moving to the Android One program. The cost of an update program with low volume is more than most of these can handle. Which is why most of them just throw out a device and forget it. No feature updates and no security updates.

    That was great for Google when they were just chasing marketshare and dominance... now that they have it, they have a mess that they need to clear up.
    04-23-19 08:52 AM
  19. Bbnivende's Avatar
    TCL Communications is not that small . BBmo is just a small division .
    05-02-19 12:55 PM
  20. jakie55's Avatar
    If they aren't going to release another full touch screen, at least allow us to subscribe to the BlackBerry Virtual Keyboard. My wife's Samsung S9 is a great phone, but the VKB sucks - I'm sure she'd pay a small subscription fee for a BlackBerry VKB
    I would pay for the BB vkb!
    05-02-19 08:05 PM
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