11-18-18 11:50 PM
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  1. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    You are way over complicating this. There's a *slight* difference between a 'marketing campaign' that includes cash incentives, huge glossy displays, advertisements etc and simply setting aside some space on your store's own retail fixture to display a product and putting a price tag on it. It's kind of a basic requirement for selling anything isn't it? Lol.
    I'm not over complicating this. It's the carriers that do all this stuff. It's like a grocery store. Every item is a pay to play. Why do you think everything is skewed in the stores to a few OEMs.
    02-04-18 01:51 PM
  2. anon(10268214)'s Avatar
    I'm not over complicating this. It's the carriers that do all this stuff. It's like a grocery store. Every item is a pay to play. Why do you think everything is skewed in the stores to a few OEMs.
    I can't speak to why or why not for each specific case...but certainly if a retailer is going to agree to sell something, it should at least be on the shelf right? Otherwise what's the point...
    02-04-18 06:02 PM
  3. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    I can't speak to why or why not for each specific case...but certainly if a retailer is going to agree to sell something, it should at least be on the shelf right? Otherwise what's the point...
    That's why AT&T is only selling the KEYone online and only some corporate Sprint locations agreed to stock the device. NA carriers don't stock branch devices without getting paid because the bigger players spend the money to keep the cheaper players out.

    That's part of the reason why the KEYone didn't end up on the shelves with AT&T or at Verizon. The big three OEMs pay all kinds of guarantees and spiffs to ensure their devices are not only prominently displayed, also salespeople will push their devices.

    Everybody asks why BB devices aren't stocked or when they are, they're hidden in the back and ignored. This happens since BB or BBMo/TCL doesn't pay enough for attention.
    02-04-18 06:22 PM
  4. anon(10268214)'s Avatar
    That's why AT&T is only selling the KEYone online and only some corporate Sprint locations agreed to stock the device. NA carriers don't stock branch devices without getting paid because the bigger players spend the money to keep the cheaper players out.

    That's part of the reason why the KEYone didn't end up on the shelves with AT&T or at Verizon. The big three OEMs pay all kinds of guarantees and spiffs to ensure their devices are not only prominently displayed, also salespeople will push their devices.

    Everybody asks why BB devices aren't stocked or when they are, they're hidden in the back and ignored. This happens since BB or BBMo/TCL doesn't pay enough for attention.
    All I'm talking about is being on the shelf. We can't expect miracles, but obviously retailers need to be held to their agreements as well. If they have agreed to sell a product (assuming it's not a Web only deal) it should at least be stocked and on the shelf right?
    02-04-18 06:39 PM
  5. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    All I'm talking about is being on the shelf. We can't expect miracles, but obviously retailers need to be held to their agreements as well. If they have agreed to sell a product (assuming it's not a Web only deal) it should at least be on the shelf right?
    They don't sign deals if you don't pay a certain amount of money.......even for the Web deal, BBMo had to pay something to AT&T with guaranteed returns and some marketing dollars.

    The competition pays money so you have to outspend the competition and pay more to get their space on shelf.
    02-04-18 06:45 PM
  6. anon(10268214)'s Avatar
    They don't sign deals if you don't pay a certain amount of money.......even for the Web deal, BBMo had to pay something to AT&T with guaranteed returns and some marketing dollars.

    The competition pays money so you have to outspend the competition and pay more to get their space on shelf.
    If the only way to get something on the shelf is to outspend the other guy, than the shelves would be bare except for one product. Let's face it, we should be careful about exaggerating and drawing all kinds of speculative conclusions based on what is or isn't on the shelves at any given moment. Retailers and salespeople, right up to the senior management level, can also be misinformed or just plain negligent. Can any of us truly say a company like Best Buy for example, is fully living up to what it has agreed to with TCL?
    Qorax likes this.
    02-04-18 07:01 PM
  7. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    If the only way to get something on the shelf is to outspend the other guy, than the shelves would be bare except for one product. Let's face it, we should be careful about exaggerating and drawing all kinds of speculative conclusions based on what is or isn't on the shelves at any given moment. Retailers and salespeople, right up to the senior management level, can also be misinformed or just plain negligent. Can any of us truly say a company like Best Buy for example, is fully living up to what it has agreed to with TCL?
    Are you in the USA. Have you been into AT&T or Verizon? These aren't speculative conclusions. It's how business is done. You either spend the money to have your premium level product shown by the carrier salespeople or you price your product as cheap as possible and undercut your competition and hope your product is noticed.

    The carrier retailers have the most power and distribution. Most people go to carriers and buy the carrier versions on payments. If TCL/BBMo wants to sell more carrier devices, they need to pay for that or create a device that people walk in asking for. Even then, salespeople will always be salespeople and try selling devices that provide better payouts.

    Look, it's obvious you're angling for some level, ethical moral high ground so that retailers should be selling more BBMo/TCL devices. It's just not realistic about how things are done. Why do you think OnePlus, Xiaomi, LeEco or multiple other discount brands aren't sold through carriers? We don't have to like it but the system exists and is completely legal.
    02-04-18 07:17 PM
  8. anon(10268214)'s Avatar
    Are you in the USA. Have you been into AT&T or Verizon? These aren't speculative conclusions. It's how business is done. You either spend the money to have your premium level product shown by the carrier salespeople or you price your product as cheap as possible and undercut your competition and hope your product is noticed.

    The carrier retailers have the most power and distribution. Most people go to carriers and buy the carrier versions on payments. If TCL/BBMo wants to sell more carrier devices, they need to pay for that or create a device that people walk in asking for. Even then, salespeople will always be salespeople and try selling devices that provide better payouts.

    Look, it's obvious you're angling for some level, ethical moral high ground so that retailers should be selling more BBMo/TCL devices. It's just not realistic about how things are done. Why do you think OnePlus, Xiaomi, LeEco or multiple other discount brands aren't sold through carriers? We don't have to like it but the system exists and is completely legal.
    Again, you are still talking about how companies pay to market and position themselves in a retail environment at the *premium* level, and how TCL for example is clearly not doing so. That was never my point. I'm taking about retailers honouring whatever agreement is already in place. It's not an altruistic case I am making, unless you are suggesting the big players are blackmailing retailers to not honour their agreements with smaller competitors...such as, for example, 'incentivizing' them to not put TCL's products on the shelf, even though they have an agreement with TCL to do so.
    02-04-18 08:05 PM
  9. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Again, you are still talking about how companies pay to market and position themselves in a retail environment at the *premium* level, and how TCL for example is clearly not doing so. That was never my point. I'm taking about retailers honouring whatever agreement is already in place. It's not an altruistic case I am making, unless you are suggesting the big players are blackmailing retailers to not honour their agreements with smaller competitors...such as, for example, 'incentivizing' them to not put TCL's products on the shelf, even though they have an agreement with TCL to do so.
    If you walk into AT&T store, you will find one Alcatel device priced around $50. Why do you think KEYone is not in AT&T stores?

    Verizon compatible KEYone was made and then never sold in stores? Why not?

    When KEYone first came out, I wanted to see device in person. Only Sprint corporate stores had them and single facing with price only. Nobody cared that I looked at it until I kept setting off alarm. Then guy unlocked from display, handed it to me and walked away. Had no interest talking with me as people came in to look at iPhone behind me. When I had to interrupt to give back phone, he laughed and said to leave on counter. Said if someone took device, at least one device would be gone. These guys make bonus money on certain devices and he wasn't even trying with me. In other words, there was no extra money selling me a device.

    BBMo/TCL paid the minimum entry level to be in only corporate retail stores and it showed. Just like in grocery store, you pay a price for the space on the shelf. Anything more is extra. The retailer owes you the supplier nothing except the 6"-12" of space you paid for.

    The big players are not blackmailing anyone. It's simply, if you want us to offer your phones under our brand, here is the minimum amount you write a check for ______________. If you don't write a check, we're not interested with your brand.

    You keep mentioning retailers honoring their agreements with BBMo/TCL. With large retailers selling factory unlocked, BBMo/TCL still pays something or the retailer won't stock device. If BBMo/TCL doesn't want to pay, they can sell direct themselves like the old ShopBlackBerry did.

    When all the competitors OEMs are paying various levels of money to retailers to stock their devices, why should BBMo/TCL not pay their share? Put yourself in their position. If someone is paying you to do a better job, selling their hardware, the brand not paying you extra loses out. Don't you go to your job to get paid the most possible everyday?
    02-04-18 08:37 PM
  10. Bbnivende's Avatar
    What date is MWC/CES? I am clinging on to my Q10. I think I was the first person in the UK to get a Priv and I probably returned it before the second got theirs. I hate hate hated it. I have had my girlfriend's iPhone 5c on my desk since she upgraded to an SE but I cannot bring myself to go through the conversion for a plethora of reasons. Meanwhile back at Luddite HQ the bloomin wotsop has stopped working since 2018 and I doubt I will be able to hold onto the history. What to do do? IPhone 5c/SE or wait for SE2 or just wait for these two new BB phones and hope they aren't biggest dikkus. What are the stats on SE sales in relation to the rest of the others in the Applecart? I accept that if I stay with Blackberry, I am going to have to learn the Android way but am I alone in wanting something bold/q1o/classicish in form?
    If you are married to your physical keyboard, you have no choice.

    I think you would find an SE too small and hard to type on. You could look at a iPhone 6s. It is basically the very same width as your Q10. It is still a very small phone though. Good deals to be had on a 6S.
    jrfurank likes this.
    02-04-18 08:53 PM
  11. DamianWarS's Avatar
    Blackberry has always liked to have a cheaper version of their keyboard devices. With the BBOS7 line up there was the Bold, Torch (all touch and slider variants) and then the Curve which was basically a budget Bold. Q10 and Z10 were announced together but the very next was the Q5 a budget keyboard device (even before the Z30). Within the DNA of blackberry is keyboards and they have always had the the Bold and Curve.

    I see an announcement for 2 keyboard devices at the same time a hint that one of them will be a flagship device and the other a budget. So possibly a new update to the KEYone and then a budget KEYone. Remember the old Vienna leaks? It kind of looked like a cheaper KEYone with more plastic and physical navbar keys not capacitive. Maybe these are just early versions of the KEYone or maybe the Vienna is the budget KEYone?
    Bbnivende and jrfurank like this.
    02-04-18 09:31 PM
  12. anon(10268214)'s Avatar
    If you walk into AT&T store, you will find one Alcatel device priced around $50. Why do you think KEYone is not in AT&T stores?

    Verizon compatible KEYone was made and then never sold in stores? Why not?

    When KEYone first came out, I wanted to see device in person. Only Sprint corporate stores had them and single facing with price only. Nobody cared that I looked at it until I kept setting off alarm. Then guy unlocked from display, handed it to me and walked away. Had no interest talking with me as people came in to look at iPhone behind me. When I had to interrupt to give back phone, he laughed and said to leave on counter. Said if someone took device, at least one device would be gone. These guys make bonus money on certain devices and he wasn't even trying with me. In other words, there was no extra money selling me a device.

    BBMo/TCL paid the minimum entry level to be in only corporate retail stores and it showed. Just like in grocery store, you pay a price for the space on the shelf. Anything more is extra. The retailer owes you the supplier nothing except the 6"-12" of space you paid for.

    The big players are not blackmailing anyone. It's simply, if you want us to offer your phones under our brand, here is the minimum amount you write a check for ______________. If you don't write a check, we're not interested with your brand.

    You keep mentioning retailers honoring their agreements with BBMo/TCL. With large retailers selling factory unlocked, BBMo/TCL still pays something or the retailer won't stock device. If BBMo/TCL doesn't want to pay, they can sell direct themselves like the old ShopBlackBerry did.

    When all the competitors OEMs are paying various levels of money to retailers to stock their devices, why should BBMo/TCL not pay their share? Put yourself in their position. If someone is paying you to do a better job, selling their hardware, the brand not paying you extra loses out. Don't you go to your job to get paid the most possible everyday?
    In the scenario you just descibed...I would be very disappointed if I were in TCL's shoes. Clearly they paid for *some* level of service and respect to be in that store. Not zero. Whether its incompetence or money...it's still a question of failing to honour an agreement to an acceptable minimal level of service.
    02-04-18 09:55 PM
  13. Bbnivende's Avatar
    Blackberry has always liked to have a cheaper version of their keyboard devices. With the BBOS7 line up there was the Bold, Torch (all touch and slider variants) and then the Curve which was basically a budget Bold. Q10 and Z10 were announced together but the very next was the Q5 a budget keyboard device (even before the Z30). Within the DNA of blackberry is keyboards and they have always had the the Bold and Curve.

    I see an announcement for 2 keyboard devices at the same time a hint that one of them will be a flagship device and the other a budget. So possibly a new update to the KEYone and then a budget KEYone. Remember the old Vienna leaks? It kind of looked like a cheaper KEYone with more plastic and physical navbar keys not capacitive. Maybe these are just early versions of the KEYone or maybe the Vienna is the budget KEYone?
    You could be right. If they do, bring back the Blackberry logo on the bezel.
    Mrs Teapot likes this.
    02-05-18 12:05 AM
  14. the_boon's Avatar

    I think you would find an SE too small and hard to type on.
    Unless...you get your hands on one of those typo keyboard cases for the 5/5S/SE
    02-05-18 01:38 AM
  15. jrfurank's Avatar
    It would be good to have a credible leak sooner rather than later. I need to commit soon and I fear once I leave Blackberry it will be hard to go back. Not impossible, I just get frustrated, spending hours of unproductive fiddling to upgrade or to shmoose change.

    Would it be Androidly impossible to make a bold or iPhoney 6 size device with a pkb? Would it not be viably popular in the same way that the SE is? Would it not go someway to coax usses recalcitrant BB10 peeps to Androidgeny?
    02-05-18 02:32 AM
  16. Qorax's Avatar
    I see an announcement for 2 keyboard devices at the same time a hint that one of them will be a flagship device and the other a budget.
    BBMo has said:
    a) A flagship specced device is not in their current scheme of things, And
    b) One of the two phones will be cheaper than the other.
    02-05-18 04:57 AM
  17. Smokeaire's Avatar
    BBMo has said:
    a) A flagship specced device is not in their current scheme of things, And
    b) One of the two phones will be cheaper than the other.
    b) What a revelation. One of these things is not like the other.
    CrackPriv likes this.
    02-05-18 08:23 AM
  18. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Blackberry has always liked to have a cheaper version of their keyboard devices. With the BBOS7 line up there was the Bold, Torch (all touch and slider variants) and then the Curve which was basically a budget Bold. Q10 and Z10 were announced together but the very next was the Q5 a budget keyboard device (even before the Z30). Within the DNA of blackberry is keyboards and they have always had the the Bold and Curve.

    I see an announcement for 2 keyboard devices at the same time a hint that one of them will be a flagship device and the other a budget. So possibly a new update to the KEYone and then a budget KEYone. Remember the old Vienna leaks? It kind of looked like a cheaper KEYone with more plastic and physical navbar keys not capacitive. Maybe these are just early versions of the KEYone or maybe the Vienna is the budget KEYone?

    So far we have had "leaks" on the 660 device, so I'd expect it is their new flagship and will arrive first... maybe this summer (in limited markets).

    Budget.... expect by the end of the year the KEYone will fill that spot.
    02-05-18 11:07 AM
  19. bigjman's Avatar
    If there is a future to BlackBerry slabs, it will be along the lines of the Motion - mid-range, long-lasting, tough, secure.

    If you're looking for a high-range slab, you're not BlackBerry's target market. It's probably time to look elsewhere.
    That is understandable. But maybe later on down the line when (hopefully) the money is rolling in comfortably, I would love to see BlackBerry Mobile go all out on a high end touch. I know there is high end touch devices out there but BlackBerry puts it together just right with the apps pre-installed and all that. I know I could buy a high end touch and sort of cobble together the BlackBerry android apps and have it close to my dtek60, but why?
    02-05-18 12:01 PM
  20. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    That is understandable. But maybe later on down the line when (hopefully) the money is rolling in comfortably, I would love to see BlackBerry Mobile go all out on a high end touch. I know there is high end touch devices out there but BlackBerry puts it together just right with the apps pre-installed and all that. I know I could buy a high end touch and sort of cobble together the BlackBerry android apps and have it close to my dtek60, but why?
    Because the DTEK was commercial failure. BB and high-end don't go together and BBMo will build the brand as mid-tier. Plus, high-end market doesn't offer much potential for OEMs not already in that space.
    02-05-18 01:21 PM
  21. Bbnivende's Avatar
    Because the DTEK was commercial failure. BB and high-end don't go together and BBMo will build the brand as mid-tier. Plus, high-end market doesn't offer much potential for OEMs not already in that space.
    Mid-tier and high-end prices will not go together either. They will have to rehabilitate the brand before they move up. They can make a really solid and dependable device with OS updates too.
    CrackPriv likes this.
    02-05-18 02:36 PM
  22. Chuck Finley69's Avatar
    Mid-tier and high-end prices will not go together either. They will have to rehabilitate the brand before they move up. They can make a really solid and dependable device with OS updates too.
    Agreed. But in USA carrier stores, the KEYone is definitely midtier priced and the Motion isn't sold.
    02-05-18 02:42 PM
  23. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    That is understandable. But maybe later on down the line when (hopefully) the money is rolling in comfortably, I would love to see BlackBerry Mobile go all out on a high end touch. I know there is high end touch devices out there but BlackBerry puts it together just right with the apps pre-installed and all that. I know I could buy a high end touch and sort of cobble together the BlackBerry android apps and have it close to my dtek60, but why?
    Why, because BBMo can't compete on hardware - they have extra cost in licencing, software, along with low volume (that isn't changing, even if they find some level of sucess). If they made a true Flagship phone, you'd be looking at a 20% premium.

    It easier to get people to overlook the "value" when your dealing with a $500 phone, it's another thing if your dealing with a $1,200+ phone.
    02-05-18 02:43 PM
  24. conite's Avatar
    Mid-tier and high-end prices will not go together either. They will have to rehabilitate the brand before they move up. They can make a really solid and dependable device with OS updates too.
    It may be more expensive than some, but $449USD is hardly high-end pricing.

    IPhone 8: $700
    Galaxy S8: $725
    LG V30: $750
    Pixel 2: $650

    And that's entry-level high-end - no Plus, no XL, no X, etc.

    To be clear, I'm not comparing the Motion to those devices, but $449 is NOT in the same category either.
    Last edited by conite; 02-05-18 at 03:43 PM.
    02-05-18 02:57 PM
  25. DamianWarS's Avatar
    BBMo has said:
    a) A flagship specced device is not in their current scheme of things, And
    b) One of the two phones will be cheaper than the other.
    Of course I mean "BlackBerry flagship" which will be the 660. Then the budget device maybe sticking with the 625

    Posted via CB10
    Qorax likes this.
    02-05-18 03:02 PM
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