12-14-13 10:12 PM
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  1. omniusovermind's Avatar
    This thread and the editorial that spawned it demonstrates how worried BB fans are about WP 8 and how worried MS fans are about BB 10. The anxiety is justified because they can't both be successful. They may both fail but before either of them can challenge Android, they must defeat their rival for third place.
    Uh no. Wrong. I'm the OP who called out Dan's article and as it stands right now it's extremely unlikely that the two small players - wp8 and BB10 - will get my business away from the 2 big players.
    So think again if you think my response had anything to do with BB brand loyalty. My response was, and always was about the fact that there were MANY points that crossed the line from subjective opinion and into incorrect information. My response was always about his opinions being presented as facts, and that those were either incorrect or deliberately misleading.
    02-03-13 06:36 PM
  2. reeneebob's Avatar
    I wouldn't bring up battery life either. Our Z10 was fully charged off the charger when I closed last night at 6. Came in this morning at 11 to open and it was bled so dry it took 10 minutes of charging to even be able to turn it on. That was idle on a desk for 15 hours and it was totally stone cold dead. It has no accounts added to it, no email, no social. Nothing. I can leave my iPhone 4 with accounts all syncing alone and get 4 days out if it sitting idle (it drains a steady 1% an hour in idle). My gs3 has all accounts syncing hourly plus push email plus 7 widgets updating half hourly and in idle I'd get 2 days.

    I have to say that it concerned me.

    Sent from my SGH-I747M using Tapatalk 2
    02-03-13 06:46 PM
  3. southlander's Avatar
    Carriers don't want a duopoly but most app developers would love one. Two platforms to develop would cover the entire market.
    yep. exactly. there are motives for not supporting marginal marketshare platforms.

    Sent from my BlackBerry Runtime for Android Apps using Tapatalk 2
    02-03-13 07:57 PM
  4. morlock_man's Avatar
    There are not and will not be two app stores for Windows 8, there is but one for RT apps.

    I have no idea where you are getting your information from but it's very wrong. A Surface Pro tablet is no different than my Acer S7 ultrabook. They all run the same RT apps as my Surface RT, we all use the same store. If I buy Tweetro Twitter app on my Surface (RT) it will install and run on any Windows 8 PC. Period. Same with Xbox games--there are no RT and Pro Xbox games. One code, everywhere. That's the point of RT.

    There are no "Surface Pro apps". Yes, there are x86 apps, which are basically legacy things like Photoshop or any other standard Windows desktop app that you want to run--that IS the point of Surface Pro, after all. But when it comes to the Windows Store and RT apps, they're all the same across the Surface, Surface Pro, ultrabooks or PCs. (A few desktop apps are "listed" in the Store but the Store doesn't actually handle them--they're more reference points. The Store is focused on RT apps.)

    And the Stores overlap now e.g. Xbox 360, Windows 8 RT apps and Windows Phone and media.

    It's not fragmentation but rather the beginning of convergence. You have to understand Windows 8, Xbox 360 and Windows Phone 8 can be described as "transition OSs" as Microsoft brings everything together. Truth be told, the Desktop in Windows will go away in the future but Microsoft could not do with it Windows 8 as it'd be too much change for consumers/enterprise. But RT styled apps are the future of Windows and the "Shared core".

    Regarding battery life, let's wait for actual reviews not guess work based off a tweet. It doesn't matter anyway: full desktop OS just require more CPU and battery life.
    So no fragmentation, just so long as you have a x86 compatible desktop operating system running in the background that emulates your RT app environment. But not vice versa. And no harm, no foul, to the people who may have purchased a Surface tab, thinking they've actually be able to use the Windows tablet with standard Windows apps.

    Nothing about their OS strategy is converging. It's forked and therefore fragmented.

    The only thing converging is the GUI.
    02-03-13 08:06 PM
  5. Daniel Rubino's Avatar
    So no fragmentation, just so long as you have a x86 compatible desktop operating system running in the background that emulates your RT app environment. But not vice versa. And no harm, no foul, to the people who may have purchased a Surface tab, thinking they've actually be able to use the Windows tablet with standard Windows apps.

    Nothing about their OS strategy is converging. It's forked and therefore fragmented. The only thing converging is the GUI.
    By this rational, iOS/OSX is fragmentation as is Android/Chrome OS. Only BB10 is "pure". But that's not a good thing, imo.

    BlackBerry doesn't have to worry about this "problem" because it'll be forever on a small screen (a few phones, PlayBook). You act like RT apps are an Achilles heel for Microsoft when it's the best of both worlds. Not even OSX can do iOS apps (Yet. How much you want to bet that iOS and OSx will merge at some point and people will hail it as "brilliant").

    Buy a Win 8 PC, get RT apps. Take RT apps and put them on a "lite" tablet like the original Surface or put them on a ultrabook or Surface Pro. Developer can then take RT app and port majority of code for a Windows Phone app.

    Apple can't scale like that across devices, neither can Google and nether can BlackBerry.

    Say what you will about RT apps and fragmentation but the fact is when you download an RT app (or buy one), you can install it on any tablet, laptop or desktop PC. That's kind of awesome. Buy a BlackBerry app: stuck on phone, stuck on PlayBook. Then you hop on your PC or Mac and run a different app to get same function with a wholly different UX. Now that is fragmentation...

    And yes, they are converging. They're all on the NT kernel, run a cross-platform application architecture and share a common UX. That's a good thing and quite powerful, imo.
    Last edited by Daniel Rubino; 02-03-13 at 09:05 PM.
    02-03-13 08:38 PM
  6. morlock_man's Avatar
    By this rational, iOS/OSX is fragmentation as is Android/Chrome OS. Only BB10 is "pure". But that's not a good thing, imo.

    BlackBerry doesn't have to worry about this "problem" because it'll be forever on a small screen (a few phones, PlayBook). You act like RT apps are an Achilles heel for Microsoft when it's the best of both worlds. Not even OSX can do iOS apps (Yet. How much you want to bet that iOS and OSx will merge at some point and people will hail it as "brilliant").

    Buy a Win 8 PC, get RT apps. Take RT apps and put them on a "lite" tablet like the original Surface or put them on a ultrabook or Surface Pro. Developer can then take RT app and port majority of code for a Windows Phone app.

    Apple can't scale like that across devices, neither can Google and nether can BlackBerry.

    Say what you will about RT apps and fragmentation but the fact is when you download an RT app (or buy one), you can install it on any tablet, laptop or desktop PC. That's kind of awesome. Buy a BlackBerry app: stuck on phone, stuck on PlayBook. Then you hop on your PC or Mac and run a different app to get same function with a wholly different UX. Now that is fragmentation...

    And yes, they are converging. They're all on the NT kernel, run a cross-platform application architecture and share a common UX. That's a good thing and quite powerful, imo.
    Yes, my rational is that any OS fragmentation is bad for the entire industry and BB10 represents a step in the right direction. As the codebase continues to develop and you get into cross-platform features like RT running on x86, you're relying on an increasingly complex codebase that requires more monkeys banging on typewriters to maintain. Eventually most of the platform has to be chucked in favor of a rewrite. How many times has this happen in Microsoft's past? Isn't that what you're advocating for with Windows 8? Disregarding it in favor of some sort of 'Blue' upgrade? This doesn't have to happen with QNX and BB10. A microkernel is a much more maintainable codebase size. It's easier to future proof and isn't built with planned obsolescence in mind as was every current and previous Microsoft operating system.

    BB10 devices come with a USB and HDMI port, making them easily dockable. Add a monitor, keyboard and mouse and you've got a functioning desktop. Throw in a citrix reciever and you've got access to Microsoft's entire x86 archive without wasting all your disk space. Run Pesktop and you've got a scratchpad. Have BlackBerry revive QNX's photon desktop software and you've got the entire Window GUI UX. All in a light and lean operating system designed to be crash-resistant and self-healing. Once they've added in a desktop the only remaining hurdle will be to release the SDKs on their own platform so they can be completely independent.

    Why even have a PC or a Mac kicking around if they can be completely replaced by a QNX-powered BlackBerry desktop that can fit in your pocket? Mobile computing is obviously the way forward, not just mobile apps. Why stay tied to a legacy codebase thats just so much baggage and wasted space? Why does Windows 8 Pro take up 40GB? Why is the OS so bloated that it takes up more than half the space on the 64GB version of the device?
    02-03-13 10:20 PM
  7. Daniel Rubino's Avatar
    I'm sorry but no matter how good QNX/PlayBook is, it won't replace the Microsoft ecoysytem of PCs, laptops, tablets and ultrabooks.

    Why does Windows 8 Pro take up 40GB? Why is the OS so bloated that it takes up more than half the space on the 64GB version of the device?
    This is just false. Windows 8 Pro is not 40GB it's just around 20GB. The reason it takes 40GB on the Surface Pro is do to things like the recovery partition, it being 64-bit, hibernation mode, system restore, etc. You can install Windows 8 Pro 64-bit with just 20GB.

    As the codebase continues to develop and you get into cross-platform features like RT running on x86, you're relying on an increasingly complex codebase that requires more monkeys banging on typewriters to maintain.
    With all respect, this sounds like FUD from 8 years ago in regards to Microsoft. Windows 8 (and starting with Windows 7 under Sinofsky) has been slimmed down and optimized tremendously. It's the reason why computers 10 years old can run the OS (Min Req: 1GHz CPU, 1GB RAM, 16GB HDD space) whereas OSX has gone in the opposite direction.

    People can debate about the new aesthetics of Windows 8 but notice performance and stability is not ever criticized. It's a solid foundation and tremendously efficient. RT apps even more so for battery life.

    Things aren't getting more complex, they're getting simpler. For consumers (one cross-platform application architecture = one Store = one UX), for developers (write once, easily port to phone).

    BB10 and QNX is not the future, it will be like Linux--a solid but niche alternative. It can't compete with Xbox (and the new "light" variant for just consumer services coming out), it can't compete with enterprise usage, it doesn't have the breadth of hardware OEM support like the Windows PCs, laptops, ultrabooks or tablets. The notion that QNX will even slightly displace PC, Mac or even Chrome at this point seems extremely far fetched.
    BB10 devices come with a USB and HDMI port, making them easily dockable.
    Even the Surface RT has HDMI out and USB too plus it runs Office 2013. Not sure why someone would opt for a Playbook vs Windows 8 tablet in that regard. I picked up an Acer Windows 8 Pro 32-bit tablet for $399 and it can literally be a full, true desktop OS running Photoshop, VNC, whatever you want on it. With an Atom procesor it gets near 10 hours. Throw in the keyboard/battery combo and you're up to 18 hours.
    Why stay tied to a legacy codebase thats just so much baggage and wasted space?
    Once again, see the above minimum specs for Windows 8--it's very light for today's standards (1GHz CPU, 1GB RAM). As to "wasted space" you act like memory cost is at a premium today, that's it's not easy to throw in an SSD or a 64GB microSD card ($40) to a modern system (the latter is an option for Surface RT and Pro users something for which PlayBook lacks). I haven't been following, can PlayBook even read external USB HDD drives yet?

    I understand you may not like Microsoft or their plans for "3 screens and a cloud" which is fine, but you seem to be operating under a tremendous amount of misinformation, imo. Hope this at least clarifies some points.
    Last edited by Daniel Rubino; 02-04-13 at 10:12 AM.
    02-04-13 09:57 AM
  8. morlock_man's Avatar
    That sounded like an advertisement. And you're starting to sound very shill-like. Must be hard to realize you'll need a new job when MS starts to tank.

    You're saying Windows 8 Pro ships with only 20GB of free space, but the average consumer is fully competent to wipe, repartition and reinstall the OS without any additional cost or assistance. Nice to know you have that kind of faith in the average consumer.

    If the plans for Windows 8 were so awesome, why did Sinofsky leave the company after it launched? Shows a ton of faith in what he'd helped create.

    Why has enterprise panned the platform?

    Microsoft Blames PC Makers For Windows Failure - Slashdot

    Windows 8 Even Less Popular Than Vista - Slashdot

    BB10 and QNX is not the future, it will be like Linux--a solid but niche alternative.
    Sure... Just like the Windows platform is powerhouse behind the Cisco routers that are the backbone of the Internet, runs nuclear reactors, manufacturing equipment, space shuttles and satelites, etc....

    Oh wait, thats QNX.
    Last edited by morlock_man; 02-04-13 at 11:32 AM.
    02-04-13 11:07 AM
  9. Daniel Rubino's Avatar
    That sounded like an advertisement. And you're starting to sound very shill-like. Must be hard to realize you'll need a new job when MS starts to tank.
    You, my friend, need to learn some decorum and not resort to personal attacks.

    Conversation over.
    Last edited by Daniel Rubino; 02-04-13 at 02:02 PM.
    Sith_Apprentice likes this.
    02-04-13 11:43 AM
  10. reeneebob's Avatar
    I'm sorry but no matter how good QNX/PlayBook is, it won't replace the Microsoft ecoysytem of PCs, laptops, tablets and ultrabooks.

    .
    Yeah I have to say that insinuation was pretty over the top ...
    02-04-13 11:52 AM
  11. morlock_man's Avatar
    Yeah I have to say that insinuation was pretty over the top ...
    Agreed.

    Microsoft isn't too big to fail at this point. Maybe 10 year ago, but not right now.

    @Rubino - Truth hurts, doesn't it?
    02-04-13 12:05 PM
  12. reeneebob's Avatar
    Agreed.

    Microsoft isn't too big to fail at this point. Maybe 10 year ago, but not right now.

    @Rubino - Truth hurts, doesn't it?
    Maybe I wasn't clear, I was agreeing with Dan. I don't see qnx replacing Mac or PC now, in 10 years...I thought your insinuation was the one that was over the top.
    Sith_Apprentice likes this.
    02-04-13 12:12 PM
  13. morlock_man's Avatar
    Maybe I wasn't clear, I was agreeing with Dan. I don't see qnx replacing Mac or PC now, in 10 years...I thought your insinuation was the one that was over the top.
    Ah. I figured Dan's insinuation that QNX would never replace the Microsoft ecosystem was insanely over the top and you were agreeing.

    As though 20 years of PC dominance was enough to ensure a strangehold on the indefinite future of computing.

    The desktop paradigm is fading. The mobile paradigm is rising. The Internet of Things will not be powered by Windows RT.
    02-04-13 12:43 PM
  14. Hammered Pizza's Avatar
    Agreed.

    Microsoft isn't too big to fail at this point. Maybe 10 year ago, but not right now.

    @Rubino - Truth hurts, doesn't it?
    I doubt Dan will be responding any further to your unreasoned points and personal attacks.
    02-04-13 02:16 PM
  15. RubberChicken76's Avatar
    Now thats some misleading comments there... Has BlackBerry lost market share? YES... But Has BlackBerry lost massive amounts of customers? NO...

    The market is growing and saying that BlackBerry went from 16% to 6% truely means nothing.... As in that time, BlackBerry went from 78M'ish subscribers to 80M'ish subscribers and finally ended at 79M'ish for end of the year. To me that means BlackBerry is still growing & if its growing then consumers are interested in the device.
    The challenge is that the Media is primarily american and in a market where BlackBerry useage has dropped substantially
    Last edited by RubberChicken76; 02-05-13 at 06:22 AM.
    02-04-13 09:36 PM
  16. Emu the Foo's Avatar
    Uh no. Wrong. I'm the OP who called out Dan's article and as it stands right now it's extremely unlikely that the two small players - wp8 and BB10 - will get my business away from the 2 big players.
    So think again if you think my response had anything to do with BB brand loyalty. My response was, and always was about the fact that there were MANY points that crossed the line from subjective opinion and into incorrect information. My response was always about his opinions being presented as facts, and that those were either incorrect or deliberately misleading.
    I like this.
    You, my friend, need to learn some decorum and not resort to personal attacks.

    Conversation over.
    I like this. Good for dance. How rude for the other guy.
    02-05-13 02:10 PM
  17. Neely2005's Avatar
    So I'm sure that you've gone back and corrected this comment so that everyone knows the correct information, right?


    Sent from my BlackBerry 9700 using Tapatalk
    Well it looks like BlackBerry is on the way up & Windows Phone is on the way down:

    http://forums.crackberry.com/news-ru...-phone-771289/
    02-13-13 10:53 AM
  18. RubberChicken76's Avatar
    yep. exactly. there are motives for not supporting marginal marketshare platforms.
    Agree, though there are also incentives as well. Marketshare is just that - share of the market. If a billion people use smarpthones (I'm making this up), and one marginal player has 3% of it and one marginal player has 6% of it, that's still a market of 30 million and 60 million customers. Even if the opportunity is bigger on the other two, there can still be money to be made on the smaller two.
    02-13-13 11:00 AM
  19. morlock_man's Avatar
    Its not just about smartphones.

    Any who thinks that is only looking at where the market has been, not where it's going.
    02-13-13 07:37 PM
  20. Jas00555's Avatar
    Should be pretty funny to dig this thread up in about 6 months, and see how the landscape has changed for both sides...will BB10 have a firm grasp on 3rd, or WP8? Will Dan still be peddling his propaganda for WPCentral, or the likes of Engadget? Will Kevin have hired his replacement yet, or will there even be a site to have a need for a replacement?

    I think I'm going to set a reminder in Google Calendar, which will still be able to sync to my BB device this summer...lol
    More like 10 1/2 months, but oh, well, better late than never. I must admit, although these last few months for BB has hit me right in the feels, I did chuckle at a lot of these comments about the speculation and have to admit that in the end, Dan was right about pre-order not being an indicator of sales.
    12-12-13 12:04 PM
  21. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    What a thread. Has it really been this long?
    12-12-13 02:48 PM
  22. ajst222's Avatar
    I also remember Kevin saying that BB10 had the door wide open and was almost destined to secure 3rd place and that WP would fail. No one called that bias. Yet, look where we are.
    12-14-13 10:12 PM
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