12-14-13 10:12 PM
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  1. morlock_man's Avatar
    Windows 8 Desktop, Windows RT and Windows Phone 8 all share the same codebase and NT kernel (drivers, APIs, etc.). The next gen Xbox is also expected to join this trend so it can run proper "apps". It's called "Shared Windows Core".

    No, apps written on Windows Phone 8 can't run on Windows RT directly but the code overlaps as much as 80% with UI being the main differentiation (Microsoft recognizes that a desktop PC, tablet and phone are all different systems with unique usability requirements, that's why they didn't take Windows Phone and make into a tablet--that's the easy way out).

    Windows 8 is far from 'bloated', in fact it's extremely light, which is why it can fly on Atom or i3 processors (or ARM for straight RT). There is no "maintaining across generations" as Microsoft is bringing all of their platforms onto the same code. A developer can write one app for RT, open a "new project" with the developers tools and port most of that into a Windows Phone 8 app (and vice versa).

    This will become more evident when Windows "Blue" comes online. The combo of share codebase between desktop, tablet, cars, Xbox "720", Windows Phone will give Microsoft extreme flexibility in the future.
    Window Surface and Windows Surface Pro don't have the same app environment. Thats fragmented. Windows 8 Desktop and Windows RT and Windows Phone are all different app environments. Thats fragmented. So their next generation of software 'Blue' is supposed to help fix all this... somehow... magically... sometime soon...ish?

    I haven't seen any evidence of a WP8 phone beating a Z10 in any benchmarks yet.

    And every WP8 phone I've seen reminds me of a suped up fisher price toy. The UI is ugly.

    As for the whole phone and tablet running on the same platform being the easy way out... thats absurd. Why is it working so well for iOS and Android?

    It's not the easy way out. It's just smarter.
    02-02-13 04:44 PM
  2. Tony_Tone's Avatar
    1000 Cascades apps? So apps written in Adobe Air or in html5 don't count?
    You said native, not sure if you a pulling another strawman but Adobe Air and html5 are not native according to BB.

    It's UX, not UK. User eXperience. Most reviews I've read say that there is a learning curve and that in some instances, certain screen elements and gestures should be reoriented to maintain consistency. But the concensus still seems to be that the UX paradigm is a big step forwards, not backwards.
    UK was a typo.

    It's a whole market that can only be served by certified devices. Apple doesn't have any. There's only a few Motorola phones and the Samsung S2 and S3. There's no real competition from Apple in that marketplace. And that's just an American standard. You don't think other nations of the world have the same strict security requirements? BlackBerry's security background offers them a niche market that very few compete within.
    You really dont know what you are talking about FIPS is a security certification with 140-2 dealing with encryption, so how does this niche area affect iOS and Android momentum in the marketplace? It doesn't at all and it wont help any phone manufacture achieve mass sales - how many consumers care about encryption?

    Not a strawman at all. OS design is the key issue here. As far as platform stability is concerned, Android's OS architecture is inherently flawed. Hardware fragmentation is just another problem that compounds the issue.
    It is the very definition of a strawman.

    And when is Windows 7 SP2 coming out?

    Oh yeah... NEVER.
    Another strawman, you said they dropped LTS on W7
    lol
    02-02-13 05:20 PM
  3. morlock_man's Avatar
    You said native, not sure if you a pulling another strawman but Adobe Air and html5 are not native according to BB.
    You're just arguing sematics. Windows RT has less than 42,000 apps currently, months after launch. BB10 opened with 70,000. Just deal with it.

    You really dont know what you are talking about FIPS is a security certification with 140-2 dealing with encryption, so how does this niche area affect iOS and Android momentum in the marketplace? It doesn't at all and it wont help any phone manufacture achieve mass sales - how many consumers care about encryption?
    Anyone who ever wants to treat their smartphone as their wallet or carry around sensitive information wants a company who's strengths are in security. Windows? Never really been a strong point.

    It is the very definition of a strawman.
    The original comment was on how BlackBerry hardware was better than Android hardware. BB hardware is made by RIM (Now BlackBerry). Android hardware is made by a variety of companies. Android is the platform, not the hardware. But the way Android communicates with the hardware creates an additional layer of problems outside of simple hardware fragmentation that leaves it more prone to crashing, being laggy and being exposed to malware.

    Another strawman, you said they dropped LTS on W7
    They announced they were never going to release Windows 7 SP2. You can keep installing it up until 2020, but you'll always have to work with SP1 media and just run the update service for a few hours until all the updates for the next 7 years download and install. It's a waste of time and bandwidth.
    Neely2005 likes this.
    02-02-13 05:41 PM
  4. Tony_Tone's Avatar
    You're just arguing sematics. Windows RT has less than 42,000 apps currently, months after launch. BB10 opened with 70,000. Just deal with it.
    Another strawman, 1000 native apps, deal with it,


    Anyone who ever wants to treat their smartphone as their wallet or carry around sensitive information wants a company who's strengths are in security. Windows? Never really been a strong point.
    Another strawman, how is this going to help with mass adoption?
    Secondly you dont understand FIPS 140 at all, a device could have much stronger encryption than a FIPS certified device and be even more secure but it would not be FIPS compliant because that protocol has not be tested and therefore certified, also the biggest user of FIPS seems to be heading for Android


    They announced they were never going to release Windows 7 SP2. You can keep installing it up until 2020, but you'll always have to work with SP1 media and just run the update service for a few hours until all the updates for the next 7 years download and install. It's a waste of time and bandwidth.
    You said there was no LTS so yes you are pulling another strawman,
    02-02-13 06:17 PM
  5. morlock_man's Avatar
    Another strawman, 1000 native apps, deal with it,


    Another strawman, how is this going to help with mass adoption?
    Secondly you dont understand FIPS 140 at all, a device could have much stronger encryption than a FIPS certified device and be even more secure but it would not be FIPS compliant because that protocol has not be tested and therefore certified, also the biggest user of FIPS seems to be heading for Android


    You said there was no LTS so yes you are pulling another strawman,
    You're a strawman. You've got 3 posts and you've come here just to repeat yourself over and over again.
    02-02-13 06:21 PM
  6. Daniel Rubino's Avatar
    Window Surface and Windows Surface Pro don't have the same app environment. Thats fragmented.
    Not true at all. RT is the shared app environment.

    If a developer writes an RT app it runs on the Surface, a Lenovo ThinkPad 2, my Acer S7 ultrabook (1080P) or any Windows 8 desktop PC. 10" screens up to anything a desktop offers. RT Tablets, Pro tablets, ultrabooks, laptops, PCs...all will run the same apps and games. RT apps run on everything that is Windows 8. True, a Surface RT can't run desktop apps but neither can an iPad, Android tablet or a PlayBook.

    See Skulls of the Shogun, which runs on Windows Phone, Windows 8 and Xbox.

    I'm guessing you haven't experienced being able to write in Office 2013 on a desktop PC, have it auto-save to SkyDrive, then bring it up on an ultrabook, Surface or Windows Phone. That and having them all "synced" for photos, contacts, music and video is all quite remarkable.
    cckgz4 likes this.
    02-02-13 06:25 PM
  7. Tony_Tone's Avatar
    You're a strawman. You've got 3 posts and you've come here just to repeat yourself over and over again.
    I am a strawman? What a pathetic response, typical of someone who responds with an answer to a question no one asked.
    02-02-13 06:26 PM
  8. Daniel Rubino's Avatar
    For those arguing app counts in the store, it's going to get old fast. It doesn't matter how much you launch with. What does matter:

    1. Billboard titles and services that people want
    2. Do developers release their apps on BB10 at the same time for iOS/Android, or will it be an afterthought with devs "thinking about it"

    I'm not predicting or saying anything for BB10, but that is what counts not "70,000" (which yes, is a lot of fluff...as every app store has "crap apps").
    02-02-13 06:31 PM
  9. Daniel Rubino's Avatar
    As for the whole phone and tablet running on the same platform being the easy way out... thats absurd. Why is it working so well for iOS and Android?

    It's not the easy way out. It's just smarter.
    It's not working for Android--their tablets are terrible and they've been getting hammered for sales. Have you tried a Samsung Tab? And Google has their own issues e.g. why Chrome for their ultrabooks but Android for Tablets? That's a very odd and schizophrenic strategy that needs to be sorted.

    Yes, Apple is selling a lot of iPads. But what's the future of OSX and their desktop? People lament the "death of the PC" but it doesn't matter .With Windows 8 the OS can go anywhere the market goes. Run it on a tablet, ultrabook, laptop, PC, Phone or even Xbox. Touchscreen or no touchscreen, mouse or trackpad, physical keyboard or onscreen. It's a long-term strategy, not short term like Android (which was done prematurely, even against Google's wishes).
    02-02-13 06:39 PM
  10. ADGrant's Avatar
    What does that even mean? Windows Phone 8 can run all apps and games on Windows Phone 7.

    There are no "native" apps for Windows Phone 8 except for games that opt to use the new gaming engines brought online. There are apps that take advantage of new WP8 APIs like lockscreen wallpaper, notifications, rapid resume, doublewide tiles, higher resolution graphics, but you don't need to have an app with those to run as everything just scales up.
    And BB 10 can run Android apps. That doesn't make Android apps native to the platform.

    I am surprised that you don't know the difference between native WP 8 apps which are written using APIs similar to WinRT in either C#, C++/CLX or HTML 5 (just like WinRT apps) and WP 7 apps which are written using Silverlight APIs (unless they are games).
    02-02-13 06:52 PM
  11. ADGrant's Avatar
    It's not working for Android--their tablets are terrible and they've been getting hammered for sales. Have you tried a Samsung Tab? And Google has their own issues e.g. why Chrome for their ultrabooks but Android for Tablets? That's a very odd and schizophrenic strategy that needs to be sorted.

    Yes, Apple is selling a lot of iPads. But what's the future of OSX and their desktop? People lament the "death of the PC" but it doesn't matter .With Windows 8 the OS can go anywhere the market goes. Run it on a tablet, ultrabook, laptop, PC, Phone or even Xbox. Touchscreen or no touchscreen, mouse or trackpad, physical keyboard or onscreen. It's a long-term strategy, not short term like Android (which was done prematurely, even against Google's wishes).
    Between them iOS and Android have almost 100% of the tablet market. Blackberry and MS have almost no market share. MS has been trying to sell Windows tablets for over a decade.

    I wouldn't call a Chromebook an ultrabook. They are basically very cheap netbooks. Great if you want to write emails or Facebook posts and don't want to spend the money on a tablet or deal with Windows or touch screen keyboards.
    02-02-13 07:06 PM
  12. Daniel Rubino's Avatar
    And BB 10 can run Android apps. That doesn't make Android apps native to the platform.

    I am surprised that you don't know the difference between native WP 8 apps which are written using APIs similar to WinRT in either C#, C++/CLX or HTML 5 (just like WinRT apps) and WP 7 apps which are written using Silverlight APIs (unless they are games).
    The thing is, no one calls them "Native WP8 apps". Yes, there are a apps like Amazon Kindle 2.0 which only WP8 can use and WP7 users stay on a separate track of v1.2, but no one calls Amazon Kindle "native" to WP8. It just has features that only WP8 can take advantage of (devs can keep multiple XAPs of the same app for 7.x and 8.x devices).

    If your definition of native apps is just "apps only WP8 can use" then to answer your original question "But how many of those are native WP8 apps" the answer is quite a few. In fact, here's our ongoing page of them. Everyday we're adding more and more, like Samsung (and we're only talking about the "major" apps here).

    Android apps on BB10 is a strict emulator, from what I understand. That has nothing in common to WP7/W8 apps though.

    The thing is there are very few apps that WP8 users can't use in the Store meaning they have full access to 120K apps. And if by "native WP8 apps" you mean something different, I need a concrete example of such an app ("native" for Windows Phone would be Facebook messaging, posting to Twitter, etc. as that is "built in" to the system. Kindle isn't any more "built in" to the OS than it was on WP7).
    cckgz4 likes this.
    02-02-13 09:12 PM
  13. Daniel Rubino's Avatar
    Between them iOS and Android have almost 100% of the tablet market. Blackberry and MS have almost no market share. MS has been trying to sell Windows tablets for over a decade.
    Depends what you call "Android" though. Samsung Galaxy Tab? Yes. Amazon Kindle? Not so much, at least in the traditional sense since Amazon/B&N aren't part of the OHA. Of course you could lump 'em all together and call it "Android" but obviously there's a fork there.

    Re: Microsoft "trying to sell Windows tablets for over a decade", no they have not. A few of their OEMs partners have tried, yes. But Microsoft themselves rarely endorsed tablets (there was that moment a few years ago with Ballmer on stage with either HP or Dell, I forget). But you can't really say what they are trying to do with Surface is "the same" effort over the last 10 years. It's night and day. Windows 8 is their first true push into tablets and it's still very early in the game.
    02-02-13 09:24 PM
  14. ADGrant's Avatar
    Depends what you call "Android" though. Samsung Galaxy Tab? Yes. Amazon Kindle? Not so much, at least in the traditional sense since Amazon/B&N aren't part of the OHA. Of course you could lump 'em all together and call it "Android" but obviously there's a fork there.

    Re: Microsoft "trying to sell Windows tablets for over a decade", no they have not. A few of their OEMs partners have tried, yes. But Microsoft themselves rarely endorsed tablets (there was that moment a few years ago with Ballmer on stage with either HP or Dell, I forget). But you can't really say what they are trying to do with Surface is "the same" effort over the last 10 years. It's night and day. Windows 8 is their first true push into tablets and it's still very early in the game.
    I used to own a Tablet running Windows XP Tablet edition about 10 years ago. Bill Gates was pushing tablets quite hard back then.

    There is a fork in Android. However, it does not alter the fact that no tablet runs iOS or some variant of Android has any market share.
    02-02-13 09:54 PM
  15. ADGrant's Avatar
    The thing is, no one calls them "Native WP8 apps". Yes, there are a apps like Amazon Kindle 2.0 which only WP8 can use and WP7 users stay on a separate track of v1.2, but no one calls Amazon Kindle "native" to WP8. It just has features that only WP8 can take advantage of (devs can keep multiple XAPs of the same app for 7.x and 8.x devices).

    If your definition of native apps is just "apps only WP8 can use" then to answer your original question "But how many of those are native WP8 apps" the answer is quite a few. In fact, here's our ongoing page of them. Everyday we're adding more and more, like Samsung (and we're only talking about the "major" apps here).

    Android apps on BB10 is a strict emulator, from what I understand. That has nothing in common to WP7/W8 apps though.

    The thing is there are very few apps that WP8 users can't use in the Store meaning they have full access to 120K apps. And if by "native WP8 apps" you mean something different, I need a concrete example of such an app ("native" for Windows Phone would be Facebook messaging, posting to Twitter, etc. as that is "built in" to the system. Kindle isn't any more "built in" to the OS than it was on WP7).
    My definition of a native WP 8 app is one built for WP 8 using the WP 8 SDK (which also means it will not run on WP 7). The Kindle app is a great example, the WP 8 app is a completely different application which will not run on the older platform. Users of the older OS have to make do with an older version of the app that Amazon build with the WP 7 SDK. Developers need multiple XAPs because the WP 7 and WP 8 versions are completely different apps.

    Android apps on BB 10 are running on an embedded version of Android 2.3 (Ginger bread). Its not that dissimilar to WP 7 apps running on an embedded version of Silverlight with additional WP 7 APIs. WP 8 and WP 7 are not different versions of the same OS, they are completely different operating systems with many superficial similarities and the ability of WP 8 to emulate WP 7.
    Neely2005 likes this.
    02-02-13 10:06 PM
  16. texazzpete's Avatar
    Windows RT is Windows on ARM-based processors for use in mobile devices. If you want to talk about the mobile device platform, you have to compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges.

    You need to find your inner Buddha.
    Right now, BB10 is only on a mobile phone.
    Windows RT does not run on mobile phones.

    To compare apples to apples, you'll compare the OSes running on mobile phones. That's BB10 against WP8.
    Using the Windows RT app count to compare against the app count on the Z10 is just plain crazy.

    There are over 150000 apps on the WP8 store.
    02-02-13 11:37 PM
  17. texazzpete's Avatar
    And every WP8 phone I've seen reminds me of a suped up fisher price toy. The UI is ugly.
    Subjective opinion, your opinion. I actually think the UI is beautiful...many others think the same way. Sure you don't wanna come up with something more original than 'fisher price toy'

    I haven't seen any evidence of a WP8 phone beating a Z10 in any benchmarks yet.
    Well, we know of Sunspider and Camera benchmarks so far...
    Not sure why you brought this up. I thought the whole idea was to stay away from benchmarks for the Z10 where it'd be seriously trumped by the likes of the iPhone 5 and newer Android devices? You don't wanna go down this route, trust me.
    02-02-13 11:45 PM
  18. morlock_man's Avatar
    Subjective opinion, your opinion. I actually think the UI is beautiful...many others think the same way. Sure you don't wanna come up with something more original than 'fisher price toy'



    Well, we know of Sunspider and Camera benchmarks so far...
    Not sure why you brought this up. I thought the whole idea was to stay away from benchmarks for the Z10 where it'd be seriously trumped by the likes of the iPhone 5 and newer Android devices? You don't wanna go down this route, trust me.
    I haven't a single device beat the Z10's browser in a real world test. At all. Do you have any of the sunspider results to post or are you just throwing that out there?

    Surface Pro apps will not run on a regular Surface tablet and vice versa. It's x86 architecture vs ARM. Thats two app stores for two tablet lines. Fragmentation! And the pro is expected to only have 4-5 hours of battery life. So thats a app store for the phone, one for the desktop version and one for ARM.

    And sure, a few people might think metro is 'ok to look at'. But you'll definitely find more people who are of the opposite opinion.

    The difference between where BB10 is and where its going and where Windows 8 is and where its going is pretty obvious. There is no convergence planned for Windows 8.

    And I'm comparing Platforms to Platforms. Comparing them where they are intended to compete. BB10 is aimed at the same market Windows RT would like to fill, not Windows Phone 8. Just because the Z10 happens to also be a phone doesn't take away from its intended marketplace, which is mobile computing, not just mobile phones.
    Neely2005 likes this.
    02-03-13 02:19 AM
  19. Emu the Foo's Avatar
    Like your avatar. Love The MacAllan single malt.

    They could use a large dollop of it in here. LoL
    Why thank you sir. I had some 15 year fine oak and just lurking on the forums. I wish I could send some your way
    Sith_Apprentice likes this.
    02-03-13 02:39 AM
  20. Hammered Pizza's Avatar
    There is no convergence planned for Windows 8.
    I have no idea whatsoever how you came to that conclusion.

    This from just over 12 months ago goes to show that:
    There are more than 1 billion Windows PCs in the hands of customers around the world today, and in January we announced that the next version of Windows will support system-on-chip architectures from Intel, AMD and ARM," Ballmer told the audience. "So, whatever device you use now or in the future, Windows will be there.
    The fact that 'Metro' style apps (I'm talking UX guidelines here) are now shared between Windows 8, Xbox, Windows RT and Windows Phone goes to show that.

    Xbox titles not only on Xbox, but on Windows 8, Windows RT and Windows Phone goes to show that.

    Skydrive, forging tighter links between devices through the syncing of photos, documents and other stuff goes to show that.

    Windows 8 asking you to sign in with a Microsoft account - as Windows Phone has does, as Xbox has does, as Windows RT does - goes to show that.


    I didn't mean to lay into you there, but people on here are very critical unless examples are forthcoming.
    02-03-13 06:09 AM
  21. rockstarzzz's Avatar
    I always thought BB was used by professionals, guys who have businesses to run. Then I started seeing BBs in hands of teens and hoodies wanting to BBM the texts from that guy last night. I didn't want to believe that, but after reading these 10 pages of this thread and most of the arguments, all I can see is, BB is owned by so many BBM lovers! Since when has an OS been like someone's wife, that no one can write an honest account of what they feel of a piece of software?! It was entertaining nonetheless. Daniel, kudos for your work and being around to answer to lame things raised. You my friend, need to write more!
    Blu3V3nom07 likes this.
    02-03-13 06:42 AM
  22. ADGrant's Avatar
    I always thought BB was used by professionals, guys who have businesses to run. Then I started seeing BBs in hands of teens and hoodies wanting to BBM the texts from that guy last night. I didn't want to believe that, but after reading these 10 pages of this thread and most of the arguments, all I can see is, BB is owned by so many BBM lovers! Since when has an OS been like someone's wife, that no one can write an honest account of what they feel of a piece of software?! It was entertaining nonetheless. Daniel, kudos for your work and being around to answer to lame things raised. You my friend, need to write more!
    This thread and the editorial that spawned it demonstrates how worried BB fans are about WP 8 and how worried MS fans are about BB 10. The anxiety is justified because they can't both be successful. They may both fail but before either of them can challenge Android, they must defeat their rival for third place.
    02-03-13 10:44 AM
  23. Daniel Rubino's Avatar
    Surface Pro apps will not run on a regular Surface tablet and vice versa. It's x86 architecture vs ARM. Thats two app stores for two tablet lines. Fragmentation! And the pro is expected to only have 4-5 hours of battery life. So thats a app store for the phone, one for the desktop version and one for ARM.
    There are not and will not be two app stores for Windows 8, there is but one for RT apps.

    I have no idea where you are getting your information from but it's very wrong. A Surface Pro tablet is no different than my Acer S7 ultrabook. They all run the same RT apps as my Surface RT, we all use the same store. If I buy Tweetro Twitter app on my Surface (RT) it will install and run on any Windows 8 PC. Period. Same with Xbox games--there are no RT and Pro Xbox games. One code, everywhere. That's the point of RT.

    There are no "Surface Pro apps". Yes, there are x86 apps, which are basically legacy things like Photoshop or any other standard Windows desktop app that you want to run--that IS the point of Surface Pro, after all. But when it comes to the Windows Store and RT apps, they're all the same across the Surface, Surface Pro, ultrabooks or PCs. (A few desktop apps are "listed" in the Store but the Store doesn't actually handle them--they're more reference points. The Store is focused on RT apps.)

    And the Stores overlap now e.g. Xbox 360, Windows 8 RT apps and Windows Phone and media.

    It's not fragmentation but rather the beginning of convergence. You have to understand Windows 8, Xbox 360 and Windows Phone 8 can be described as "transition OSs" as Microsoft brings everything together. Truth be told, the Desktop in Windows will go away in the future but Microsoft could not do with it Windows 8 as it'd be too much change for consumers/enterprise. But RT styled apps are the future of Windows and the "Shared core".

    Regarding battery life, let's wait for actual reviews not guess work based off a tweet. It doesn't matter anyway: full desktop OS just require more CPU and battery life.
    Last edited by Daniel Rubino; 02-03-13 at 11:55 AM.
    02-03-13 11:42 AM
  24. Daniel Rubino's Avatar
    This thread and the editorial that spawned it demonstrates how worried BB fans are about WP 8 and how worried MS fans are about BB 10. The anxiety is justified because they can't both be successful. They may both fail but before either of them can challenge Android, they must defeat their rival for third place.
    That's it in a nutshell.

    Carriers don't want a duopoly between Android and iOS but they don't necessarily want four either (though perhaps it could work, who knows). And being "niche" in this business doesn't work because it's a vicious cycle:

    "Oh you don't have this app? I won't buy the phone" --> Less phone sales = less developer interest --> Apps don't get made --> "Oh you don't have this NEW app yet?" Repeat.

    Then there is the question of what BB10 brings to market that consumers want that Android/iOS/Windows Phone doesn't offer. Note, I'm not saying BB10 doesn't bring anything but rather it will be interesting to see if consumers pick up enough differences to sway their attention.
    Last edited by Daniel Rubino; 02-03-13 at 01:59 PM.
    02-03-13 11:52 AM
  25. ADGrant's Avatar
    Carriers don't want a duopoly but most app developers would love one. Two platforms to develop would cover the entire market.
    02-03-13 04:36 PM
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