[Jake Storm]

Once again, the point was to demonstrate how far BB has fallen. Windows Phone sales have been only slowly increasing and it's not enough. I think it's very premature and irrational to say consumers will flock to BB10 over Android or iOS to gain market share. Why would they?

Wow, just wow.
Why is it so hard for you to admit that BB7 has been killing WP8?
Now, it doesn't take a crystal ball to see that BB10 is going to sell better than BB7. Therefore BB10 will outpace WP8 even further.
For you to suggest even the slightest possibility that WP8 has a chance at taking over 3rd spot is just sad.

[Daniel Rubino]

So you are giving opinions now. caught ya.

As my first post here stated, it was an opinion/editorial piece. So the only thing you caught was the obvious

As to the rest, I'm going to be honest: I don't know who you are, have never interacted with you and you're not my site's target audience. That means I don't owe you an answer nor my time.

If you want to talk hardware, we wrote this piece yesterday which are free to read (and disagree with). Frankly, I have better things to do than justify my editorials to specific individuals who want to nitpick everything I wrote, with no intent on finding common ground.

I tried to set the record straight a bit here on my opinions but in the end, I don't need to defend anything and I stand by what I wrote. Sorry if you find that unsatisfactory but you'll just have to accept that not everyone agrees on the same things in technology (or life).

And with that, this thread has run its course. Thanks to those who engaged in a legitimate discussion.

[TomJasper]

that's entirely cultural. For example in Australia they like there Car's colours to be "brighter and bold".

Well then perhaps wp should shift all their markets to Australia,lol.

[Cappyshirt]

^^^
Stop using this as facts!!!! People aren't helping by saying since "bb7 sold well bb10 has too!!"

One phone sells really well in emerging markets the other is a high end phone. Trust me, I would love for BB10 to sell well. But, these aren't arguments anymore, there half-*** facts put out to make WP8 look bad.

We should want all platforms to succussed

[TomJasper]

Wow, just wow.
Why is it so hard for you to admit that BB7 has been killing WP8?
Now, it doesn't take a crystal ball to see that BB10 is going to sell better than BB7. Therefore BB10 will outpace WP8 even further.
For you to suggest even the slightest possibility that WP8 has a chance at taking over 3rd spot is just sad.

Some ppl don't take defeat well.

[TomJasper]

^^^
Stop using this as facts!!!! People aren't helping by saying since "bb7 sold well bb10 has too!!"

One phone sells really well in emerging markets the other is a high end phone. Trust me, I would love for BB10 to sell well. But, these aren't arguments anymore, there half-*** facts put out to make WP8 look bad.

We should want all platforms to succussed

So I take it you are considering purchasing a Blackberry 10 then? If so good choice.

[Cappyshirt]

Well then perhaps wp should shift all their markets to Australia,lol.

Thats just insulting c'mon...

The Australian market is just as important as the rest of the world. An American point of view doesn't represent the entire world.

[Bold_until_Hybrid_Comes]

As my first post here stated, it was an opinion/editorial piece. So the only thing you caught was the obvious

As to the rest, I'm going to be honest: I don't know who you are, have never interacted with you and you're not my site's target audience. That means I don't owe you an answer nor my time.

If you want to talk hardware, we wrote this piece yesterday which are free to read (and disagree with). Frankly, I have better things to do than justify my editorials to specific individuals who want to nitpick everything I wrote, with no intent on finding common ground.

I tried to set the record straight a bit here on my opinions but in the end, I don't need to defend anything and I stand by what I wrote. Sorry if you find that unsatisfactory but you'll just have to accept that not everyone agrees on the same things in technology (or life).

And with that, this thread has run its course. Thanks to those who engaged in a legitimate discussion.

Dan, no where on the article does it say it is an opinion piece. It is presented as fact on WPcentral for people to read. Then you came here and told us it is your opinion. It has to be on the article.right from the start.

Dont link me off to other articles comparing bb10 hardware to windows device hardware. This article is supposed to be about that comparison, there is a hardware section there and there is no comparison for bb10 to wp8

[Cappyshirt]

So I take it you are considering purchasing a Blackberry 10 then? If so good choice.

I've always wanted too, I made a pre-registration on Rogers weeks ago. I'm just being reasonable.

[omniusovermind]

@omniusovermind
My editorial/opinion piece was just that an editorial and opinion piece. The last thing on earth I'd expect is for people at CrackBerry to agree it with it. It wasn't written for you, it was written for our audience--Windows Phone users. Everyone is biased and favors something--the fact that you're posting in a CB forum is evidence for that. There's nothing wrong with it at all either. The curse is when people pretend to be objective.

Thank you for responding. Now that I have time to address you more specifically, first let's cut straight to the heart of the matter. Had you written an opinion piece, that would be fine. The problem with your article is you didn't do that. You presented opinions as actual facts. Once you blurred those lines, it was no longer an opinion piece. What's more, you got a whole bunch of things wrong which just exacerbated the problem.

Besides the Skype comment that was early in the day and which I did not write in my editorial, I'm not sure what "facts" I got wrong. All you did was make a hit piece against me, not what I wrote which I find ironic due to your complaint.

And for that I apologize. I didn;'t have enough time to do what you're asking at that time, but now that I do...

Let's look at just some of the specifics shall we?

A fairer media? There’s little doubt that when it comes to positive PR, BlackBerry has it in spades compared to Microsoft. The media so far has been a lot more enthusiastic or even forgiving of BlackBerry 10 when compared to anything Microsoft does these days. Because of this, BlackBerry can expect to ride a wave of positive press coverage as clearly they are the favored under-dog

Are you aware that RIM, until just last month, has been getting lambasted on a regular basis by much of the tech media? Furthermore, what figures or numbers are you citing in your article to back up your claim? You specifically said: "There’s little doubt that when it comes to positive PR, BlackBerry has it in spades compared to Microsoft. The media so far has been a lot more enthusiastic or even forgiving of BlackBerry 10 when compared to anything Microsoft does these days"

As an Editor for WPCentral shouldn't you already be aware that you're supposed to cite sources when you make claims? My Father retired as the asst. editor of a major city for one of the largest newspapers in the country, I'm preeeeety sure that's what he made his reporters do...

Hardware reliability. Say what you will about BlackBerry but much like Palm, their hardware is generally quite good. Not Apple good. Not Nokia good. But better than many Android phones on the market

See, the same problem continues here. What's your source? This isn't an opinion you're presenting here since you're obviously listing hardware reliability ratings which aren't "opinions", so I say you need a source. Did you even have one? How about Squaretrade's smartphone warranty claims made due to manufacturer defects for 2012? Just curious...

The OS is boring

Ok, we're getting back on better ground here because you plainly presented an actual opinion this time. Or did you... Oh dear. Let's see, first you chose as your image depiction of the OS... get ready for this folks... the BB10 App Drawer? Um WHAT? Tell me Dan, when you were sitting there writing that segment, are you honestly going to tell me not one little voice in your head said "oh Daniel, you're being very misleading, and you know it!"

So I guess no other aspects of the actual UI occurred to you right? The cascading and peek screens, the Hub (Which by the way, is well ahead of what WP8 has) The swipe UI multitasking for everything, the Active Frames, which "IMO" actually work better than Live Tiles do. Let me gstart you off with a little hint Dan: An App Drawer is not a home screen.

Here's what you did, using a WP8 as an example:

"So this is why I think WP8 has a boring UI. It looks pretty much like Android and iOS, just a boring list of apps. What's so innovative about this?"


And if that wasn't bad you enough, you did it AGAIN a little further on. You know Dan, this wouldn't be so bad if you didn't do it on purpose. But we both know you did. Let's not pull any punches here. You were being deliberately misleading and evasive by showing the freaking app drawer as the OS. Not just dirty Dan, but totally dishonest. Shame on you.

Your closing summary basically states that Nokia hardware looks "prettier". Hardly my main criteria for buying a smartphone I'm going to carry for 1-2 years but ok. At least THAT was actually an opinion. Finally Dan, and most telling of all:

There was little to NO mention by YOU of things like:

"when I was using the BB10 I noticed..." or
"My impression while using a BB10 was that..."

See where I'm going with that? Exactly how much DID you have a z10 in your hands Dan?

[TomJasper]

"Frankly, I have better things to do than justify my editorials to specific individuals who want to nitpick everything I wrote, with no intent on finding common ground."

Specific individuals when added together make a group ie audience. I think nitpicking might be a bit strong, I thought you were all for opinions pro or con, yet you sound a tad terse when an individual has an opinion on your editorial. I'm not sure how that is productive in reaching "common ground".

[BBThemes]

I did say all things being rational. You have not provided anything irrational that would change the original metrics. In fact originally the thought retail price being tossed around was $700 to $799 , price has gone down. Now if the price would have been $899 then that could be considered an irrational behaviour to the metric.

Edit:$550 off contract at a place called Koodo

actually the irrational behaviour in the first place was to simply use the exchange rate base on the GBP price of a phone.

i very clearly pointed out in many threads that this was stupid to do, and a better comparison was that the iphone was �30 more than the carphonewarehouse leaked price, and therefore all things being equal the US (and in theory any other country) would be able to judge the price based off the iphone price in their region. Again, logic, not rocklet science. just because people used an exchange rate and the price is now lower, doesnt actually mean the price has gone down.

As for what would maintain my position that if there was a negative reaction to availability it would potentially (as we can only theorize) affect non BB users more? well brand loyalty would play one large part, plus i can point you to many a review saying that BB10 is now competitive and current BB users are gonna love it (i swear they copy and paste that for every review mind lol) and while its caught up in most points to other platforms theres not yet any `wow i must have that` factor. Again, those are reviews, and i really like the Z10 (i have one, for the record) but the reality is if there was a negative sentiment over price, saying brand loyalty and review/perception wouldnt sway different user groups in different directions is a little naive.

Also id add youve already made the assumption that more BB users would pre order than non BB users, which kinda validates my brand loyalty theory.

[Cappyshirt]

For those who don't understand. An Editorial => opinion piece.

[TomJasper]

Thats just insulting c'mon...

The Australian market is just as important as the rest of the world. An American point of view doesn't represent the entire world.

That was not insulting in the least or even meant to be, I was agreeing with you on Australia and giving business advice in favour of your regional choice of Australia perhaps being a strong market for wp because the Aussie's would jump all over bright colors,lol.

[TomJasper]

I've always wanted too, I made a pre-registration on Rogers weeks ago. I'm just being reasonable.

What phone are you using now?

[cckgz4]

YESSSS Daniel!!

[bizzyqu]

guys give it a rest, going after gizmodo dumb-dumbs is one thing where they are pretending to be objective, but you guys are going after one of our own and getting way too into it (ie: FIRE HIM).

[cckgz4]

As someone pointed out on wpcentral, an article that's related to the competition seems to be the top thread. Hmm

[omniusovermind]

YESSSS Daniel!!

Maple Leafs fan.

[omniusovermind]

As someone pointed out on wpcentral, an article that's related to the competition seems to be the top thread. Hmm

Oh is it? You're determined, but keep trying. lol.

Most Viewed

So when does blackberry 10 come to playbook?
BlackBerry Z10 - We got one, ask us anything!
BB10 does not have push email?
Has anyone changed their minds about buying a Z10?
[Speculation] Older PB's Won't get BB10, A new PB...
Thoughts on the big unveiling?

Let's look at yours over at WPC:

TRENDING NOW
Today is DDay or BB10 day
What Microsoft should learn from BlackBerry
Blackberry 10 gets Skype and Windows Phone 8 is...
Has anyone in the U.S. received the 7.8 update?
Anyone Else Just Completely Disappointed by BB10?
7.8 Update??

huh. 4 out of 6 top WPC topics are about BB. That's some funny stuff right there

[TomJasper]

I think we have crossed our wires some where. In price I meant to show that it's actually lower than many previously thought, therefore price would not be a irrational factor.

actually the irrational behaviour in the first place was to simply use the exchange rate base on the GBP price of a phone.

i very clearly pointed out in many threads that this was stupid to do, and a better comparison was that the iphone was �30 more than the carphonewarehouse leaked price, and therefore all things being equal the US (and in theory any other country) would be able to judge the price based off the iphone price in their region. Again, logic, not rocklet science. just because people used an exchange rate and the price is now lower, doesnt actually mean the price has gone down.

As for what would maintain my position that if there was a negative reaction to availability it would potentially (as we can only theorize) affect non BB users more? well brand loyalty would play one large part, plus i can point you to many a review saying that BB10 is now competitive and current BB users are gonna love it (i swear they copy and paste that for every review mind lol) and while its caught up in most points to other platforms theres not yet any `wow i must have that` factor. Again, those are reviews, and i really like the Z10 (i have one, for the record) but the reality is if there was a negative sentiment over price, saying brand loyalty and review/perception wouldnt sway different user groups in different directions is a little naive.

Also id add youve already made the assumption that more BB users would pre order than non BB users, which kinda validates my brand loyalty theory.

[TomJasper]

As someone pointed out on wpcentral, an article that's related to the competition seems to be the top thread. Hmm

Good observation, read my first two posts on this thread,lol.

[TomJasper]

Oh is it? You're determined, but keep trying. lol.



Let's look at yours over at WPC:


huh. 4 out of 6 top WPC topics are about BB. That's some funny stuff right there

That's what I call a touche,lol.

[anon(757282)]

For those who don't understand. An Editorial => opinion piece.

Dan should be very embarrassed with that poor effort. Not the calibre expected from Mobile Nations.

[TomJasper]

Thank you for responding. Now that I have time to address you more specifically, first let's cut straight to the heart of the matter. Had you written an opinion piece, that would be fine. The problem with your article is you didn't do that. You presented opinions as actual facts. Once you blurred those lines, it was no longer an opinion piece. What's more, you got a whole bunch of things wrong which just exacerbated the problem.

And for that I apologize. I didn;'t have enough time to do what you're asking at that time, but now that I do...

Let's look at just some of the specifics shall we?


Are you aware that RIM, until just last month, has been getting lambasted on a regular basis by much of the tech media? Furthermore, what figures or numbers are you citing in your article to back up your claim? You specifically said: "There’s little doubt that when it comes to positive PR, BlackBerry has it in spades compared to Microsoft. The media so far has been a lot more enthusiastic or even forgiving of BlackBerry 10 when compared to anything Microsoft does these days"

As an Editor for WPCentral shouldn't you already be aware that you're supposed to cite sources when you make claims? My Father retired as the asst. editor of a major city for one of the largest newspapers in the country, I'm preeeeety sure that's what he made his reporters do...


See, the same problem continues here. What's your source? This isn't an opinion you're presenting here since you're obviously listing hardware reliability ratings which aren't "opinions", so I say you need a source. Did you even have one? How about Squaretrade's smartphone warranty claims made due to manufacturer defects for 2012? Just curious...

The OS is boring

Ok, we're getting back on better ground here because you plainly presented an actual opinion this time. Or did you... Oh dear. Let's see, first you chose as your image depiction of the OS... get ready for this folks... the BB10 App Drawer? Um WHAT? Tell me Dan, when you were sitting there writing that segment, are you honestly going to tell me not one little voice in your head said "oh Daniel, you're being very misleading, and you know it!"

So I guess no other aspects of the actual UI occurred to you right? The cascading and peek screens, the Hub (Which by the way, is well ahead of what WP8 has) The swipe UI multitasking for everything, the Active Frames, which "IMO" actually work better than Live Tiles do. Let me gstart you off with a little hint Dan: An App Drawer is not a home screen.

Here's what you did, using a WP8 as an example:

"So this is why I think WP8 has a boring UI. It looks pretty much like Android and iOS, just a boring list of apps. What's so innovative about this?"
http://wmpoweruser.com/wp-content/up...012/07/152.png

And if that wasn't bad you enough, you did it AGAIN a little further on. You know Dan, this wouldn't be so bad if you didn't do it on purpose. But we both know you did. Let's not pull any punches here. You were being deliberately misleading and evasive by showing the freaking app drawer as the OS. Not just dirty Dan, but totally dishonest. Shame on you.

Your closing summary basically states that Nokia hardware looks "prettier". Hardly my main criteria for buying a smartphone I'm going to carry for 1-2 years but ok. At least THAT was actually an opinion. Finally Dan, and most telling of all:

There was little to NO mention by YOU of things like:

"when I was using the BB10 I noticed..." or
"My impression while using a BB10 was that..."

See where I'm going with that? Exactly how much DID you have a z10 in your hands Dan?

+10