02-26-09 12:43 AM
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  1. Mr. Asterisk's Avatar
    I have a question for you. Who was the mayor of Louisiana during Katrina, who was the governor of Louisiana during Katrina? Is it really the federal governments job? Or do you think the state/city should handle it? I feel like the democrats just used this as a ploy to bash Bush as they did with everything else, when in reality they don't do anything to help either.
    Here's the funny thing regarding using one event such as Katrina; a 'ploy' as you label it to 'bash' Bush. For arguments sake; let's pretend Katrina never happened...there are a cornucopia of things both domestically and internationally that can be used to 'bash' Bush...no ploy about it.

    I don't think the agenda is to incessantly bash things.

    What are you bickering about? Obama is pres. NOW and can still do something about it. Would you rather him do nothing?
    Bickering? Actually...what are YOU talking about? You're speaking in BROAD strokes Mr. golfnut...what is it that you think Obama can 'still do something about'? That's the point; a lot of things should have been done THEN with regards to Katrina...however they were not done and it's too late to mitigate many things now. In fact that can be the creed of the past 8 years...a lot of could haves/should haves been done (not just towards Katrina) about it...weren't.
    02-24-09 07:49 PM
  2. golfnut's Avatar
    So you think because it happened long ago, nothing can be done to help those who are still in need to this day? You are upset at the way Katrina was handled then. I'm not comfortable with the fact that there are still families in need as a result of Katrina. Let's leave it at that Mr. Asterisk. Fair?
    02-24-09 08:21 PM
  3. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    Wow, what a state of mind we have developed!
    First of all, New Orleans was originally French. That should be enough said right there.
    Considering the way the local and state governments handled the lead up to Katrina, and the politics that created the disaster of a levee system, I'd say the Feds did a pretty good job handling a massive aftermath evacuation. The fact that President Bush respected the Constitution and didn't just drop the military into a state before the Governor approved should be commended, or would you prefer a President to be able to take over your town on a wim. Habeas Corpus is critical to keeping our freedoms, at least those few we have left.
    I'd go into the politics of New Orleans, but why bother. Lets just say there were a lot of people, about 40% who were content to take fish instead of learning to fish, and continually vote in the politician who would give them the most fish. This has been the case there for many decades. Heck, "school bus" Nagin was re-elected after Katrina, though they finally got a lick of sense and elected Bobby Jindal as Governor.
    There was a time in our country, a better time, when the Federal Government was expected to only be responsible for the enumerated powers listed in the Constitution. Cities like Galveston and San Francisco dealt with disasters themselves, with the volunteered effort of many others. Never thinking the rest of the country was responsible for them. There shouldn't even be a FEMA to complain about.
    This economic "crisis" we're in is a perfect example of how wrong we've gone. I hear people saying the Federal Government has to help these people, because they can't handle the shame of asking their families for support. Would they knock on their neighbors door and tell them they have to give them money? No, but find it perfectly fine for the Feds to pick their neighbors pocket for them. I have no problem with them asking their neighbor for help, and we have always been a generous country. It's when we turn to the nanny state, that it always turns into either saying it's not enough, or thanking Mother D.C., without any regard to where the help actually came from. Americans do a much better job at helping each other than the Feds ever will.
    Until we return to our origin, a country based on personal responsibility and individual liberty, we will continue to sink into the abyss.
    02-25-09 05:07 AM
  4. RavenMaverick's Avatar
    Wow, what a state of mind we have developed!
    First of all, New Orleans was originally French. That should be enough said right there.
    Considering the way the local and state governments handled the lead up to Katrina, and the politics that created the disaster of a levee system, I'd say the Feds did a pretty good job handling a massive aftermath evacuation. The fact that President Bush respected the Constitution and didn't just drop the military into a state before the Governor approved should be commended, or would you prefer a President to be able to take over your town on a wim. Habeas Corpus is critical to keeping our freedoms, at least those few we have left.
    I'd go into the politics of New Orleans, but why bother. Lets just say there were a lot of people, about 40% who were content to take fish instead of learning to fish, and continually vote in the politician who would give them the most fish. This has been the case there for many decades. Heck, "school bus" Nagin was re-elected after Katrina, though they finally got a lick of sense and elected Bobby Jindal as Governor.
    There was a time in our country, a better time, when the Federal Government was expected to only be responsible for the enumerated powers listed in the Constitution. Cities like Galveston and San Francisco dealt with disasters themselves, with the volunteered effort of many others. Never thinking the rest of the country was responsible for them. There shouldn't even be a FEMA to complain about.
    This economic "crisis" we're in is a perfect example of how wrong we've gone. I hear people saying the Federal Government has to help these people, because they can't handle the shame of asking their families for support. Would they knock on their neighbors door and tell them they have to give them money? No, but find it perfectly fine for the Feds to pick their neighbors pocket for them. I have no problem with them asking their neighbor for help, and we have always been a generous country. It's when we turn to the nanny state, that it always turns into either saying it's not enough, or thanking Mother D.C., without any regard to where the help actually came from. Americans do a much better job at helping each other than the Feds ever will.
    Until we return to our origin, a country based on personal responsibility and individual liberty, we will continue to sink into the abyss.

    I am sure I can't possibly address this all in one post.

    First off, Bush waiting for someone to give an OK before he puts troops somewhere is a joke. He didn't need an OK for Iraq. You can't pick and choose when to follow the rules.

    Second, Who pays for FEMA? Who pays the salaries of the commities that are over the commities that handle situations like these? Do you? Do I? What do I get for my money?

    Next, I don't know how old you are. But, I am of the age where the government decided to up my retirement age to match the expectation of my life span. Obviously, 60 doesn't cut it anymore. They want atleast 12 to 13 more years beyond that for my husband and I. I am ASSuming to be able to collect more taxes from us that we won't ever see again.

    I will be coming from a generation that will NEVER see my social security. So forgive me if I get a little PISSED by the fact that my taxes and social security are going to GM and AIG who just ate and shat money knowing they could count on "The Good Old Boy" network to lend them a helping hand.

    We will pay to rebuild a country we are at war with. We will bomb the he!! out of it, then give it a makeover. But we can not help our own?

    The money has got to go somewhere. I would rather work till the day I die, and see my money helping blue collar folks get a leg up than see it going to a bunch of dumbas*es that wine and dine with the in crowd on the white House lawn.

    We continue (as a people) to just blindly accept what others decide is the best way to spend "our" money. And it is "Our" money! I understand the government can't bail everyone out. My gripe is that they seem to constantly pick the wrong ones to bail out.

    I am overly joyed by the fact that some people just "know" that they will never wind up in a similar situation. They will never need to rely on others if their spouse or child suffers from a 3 year bout with terminal cancer, they will never have to go on disability and collect more than they ever paid in, the only bread-winning spouse may die suddenly leaving a single parent with several children. Everyone has million dollar life insurance policies, never ending savings, and health insurance that pays 100% of everything. No one else will ever need the government's help for these things. Only N.O. has the unmitigated gall to ask for help.

    The rest of us will just pull ourselves up using our bootstraps like a true American.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    02-25-09 06:58 AM
  5. wnm's Avatar
    I have a question for you. Who was the mayor of Louisiana during Katrina, who was the governor of Louisiana during Katrina? Is it really the federal governments job? Or do you think the state/city should handle it? I feel like the democrats just used this as a ploy to bash Bush as they did with everything else, when in reality they don't do anything to help either.
    From FEMA's web site:

    "The primary mission of the Federal Emergency Management Agency is to reduce the loss of life and property and protect the Nation from all hazards, including natural disasters, acts of terrorism, and other man-made disasters, by leading and supporting the Nation in a risk-based, comprehensive emergency management system of preparedness, protection, response, recovery, and mitigation."

    And from A 1992 interim report by the Congress (prior to Hurricane Andrew, which led to further criticism of FEMA) "FEMA is widely viewed as a political dumping ground, a turkey farm, if you will, where large numbers of positions exist that can be conveniently and quietly filled by political appointment ..."

    Under Bush I the response to Andrew was horrible, and Bush had to have Andrew Card show a presence of competence after FEMA failed to immediately respond. Under Clinton, FEMA was elevated to Cabinet level and a career disaster coordinator was appointed. Under Bush II, the agency got buried in DHS and returned to the "turkey farm dumping ground" (my description) and at the time of Katrina was led by Mr. Heckavajob Brownie.

    Clearly FEMA and disaster coordination and response in general follows the political philosophy of the person in the White House. If you think the Federal Government is a tool for doing good, you will likely get a positive response, and if you think government is always the problem you will just get problems.
    02-25-09 07:06 AM
  6. wnm's Avatar
    Kangaruex,

    Right on.

    BigBadWolf,

    I assume then that you will decline all financial or other benefits from the federal government that cannot be tied directly to any contributions you have made.
    02-25-09 07:10 AM
  7. wildCOUNTRY's Avatar
    New Orleans isnt the only place that needs help. Every city has its area that needs some attention.
    02-25-09 08:38 AM
  8. stevea1975's Avatar
    The only efficient branch of our government is the military. I don't care who is/was president, the government is too large and bureaucrat-filled to respond to a crisis in a reasonable and timely matter. I am sorry, but I will NEVER rely upon or trust the Federal government with my safety in a crisis. I just assume that if something were to happen, I would be on my own for at least 48-72 hours. And that's being optimistic!
    02-25-09 08:54 AM
  9. RavenMaverick's Avatar
    New Orleans isnt the only place that needs help. Every city has its area that needs some attention.
    I couldn't agree more. However, there isn't enough time left in the world to touch upon all of them.


    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    02-25-09 09:02 AM
  10. wnm's Avatar
    The only efficient branch of our government is the military. I don't care who is/was president, the government is too large and bureaucrat-filled to respond to a crisis in a reasonable and timely matter. I am sorry, but I will NEVER rely upon or trust the Federal government with my safety in a crisis. I just assume that if something were to happen, I would be on my own for at least 48-72 hours. And that's being optimistic!
    That's actually a reasonable expectation for anyone who doesn't evacuate from an area when told to do so. I agree you shouldn't rely on the Fed for safety in a crisis, but I think we should be able to rely on the Fed to have measures in place before and after something like Katrina to improve the odds.

    This discussion has moved off the actual follow through of the revival of NO and other areas.
    02-25-09 09:14 AM
  11. zarzamora_hermosa's Avatar
    Wow; you're missing the point...we're not talking about why people have settled down in New Orleans (which I touched on in my prior post)...that's a whole different angle to the discussion.

    We're talking about the reaction/handling/approach to the aftermath of Katrina.

    Btw; I wonder what qualifiable facts you're using to say that America is 'one of the world's most educated countries'. I'm purely curious as to what variables/parameters you're using to say that.
    You overlook the fact that "people who have settled down in New Orleans" is still part of the class "people who live in New Orleans." Unfortunately, I believe you missed my point of sarcasm... sarcasm at the obvious partiality of the question and the idiocy of attempting to objectively approach a bias argument. You DID notice that I gave as much factual basis for my assertion as the initial poster to his or her question. Read carefully next time.

    Since you requested citations, I took literally two minutes and Googled the subject. Here's a list of studies and surveys. Since you requested literature, you can take the time to validate their credibility, because I simply do not have the time, and quite honestly, I do not care.

    Top 20 Most Educated Countries - Swivel
    Most Educated Countries in the World - Topix
    Most Educated Countries | The Composed Gentleman
    NationMaster - World Statistics, Country Comparisons
    NimoWorld: Most Educated Countries
    Last edited by zarzamora_hermosa; 02-26-09 at 01:11 PM.
    02-25-09 04:46 PM
  12. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    Come on now.
    Congress OK'd the war in Iraq, so there was consistency. The total to date for battle and reconstruction was less than our latest stimulus package. And we've always attempted to befriend and aid the people of a country we've fought. Especially one who's people were oppressed violently by the government we've overthrown.
    Yes, I too have to live longer in the hopes of collecting anything I've involuntarily invested in SS. I would much preferred to do with that 15% of my income as I wished. My daughter would then at least have the use of my nest-egg should I die before I retired, or after if I hadn't spent it all. No one would ever be allowed by the Government to offer a retirement plan the likes of SS, nor would anyone of right mind be willing to invest in it. Gee, sounds great, you take my money all my working life, and if I am lucky to live long enough, I might just break even in small monthly increments. Sweeeeeet!
    Yes, we do as a whole blindly continue to allow our representatives to do with our money as they wish. It would be nice if we elected representatives that let us keep our money instead. Corporations should not get any of our tax dollars, but neither should they pay them. That payment is simply a collection through the cost of their goods, and when competing globally with companies who's countries do not oppressively tax them, a heavy burden. We have the second highest tax rate on corporations in the world, and we wonder why they leave!?!
    I have gone through some difficult times, mostly from health. But I looked my contributors in the eye, ask them for help, and thanked them personally. It was my problem each time, and I never expected help from anyone. Especially people who didn't have the opportunity to say no.
    There shouldn't be a FEMA to complain about where you money goes. That was my point. If you think FEMA was fine during Clinton, look up Hurricane Floyd. Even Jesse Jackson had to complain about that success story.
    I'm not a fan of either major political party, I'm a Libertarian. My signature line about bailouts stems from the Bush administration, it's just bled over into the Obama administration.
    My philosophy loosely quoted from Ayn Rand is such; It's not a right, when someone else has to pay for it. At best it's a privilege, at worst it's extortion.
    Sorry if I appear heartless. We all need a little help from time to time, but we can't simply expect it. I give a lot of my money and time to charity, including after Katrina. And I'm willing to bet the victims had better luck dealing with the groups I am involved with, than the government, which is a tool, but for good, too often not so much.
    And with that, I'll leave you with a few choice quotes from some guys who might have had a clue what this country is all about:
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!"
    “Repeal that [welfare] law, and you will soon see a change in their manners. ... Six days shalt thou labor, though one of the old commandments long treated as out of date, will again be looked upon as a respectable precept; industry will increase, and with it plenty among the lower people; their circumstances will mend, and more will be done for their happiness by inuring them to provide for themselves, than could be done by dividing all your estates among them.” Benjamin Franklin

    “A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned. This is the sum of good government, and this is necessary to close the circle of our felicity.” Thomas Jefferson

    “Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.” George Washington
    02-25-09 11:08 PM
  13. Zrb0529's Avatar
    well i dont know much about beurcracy
    what i do know though
    is if i lived in a place thats below sea level
    and i saw an 800 mile wide category 5 hurricane heading in my general direction
    i would get the **** out
    02-26-09 12:43 AM
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