[Captain_Hilts]

Quite correct!

"I don't think that word means what you think it means."

And yet the intention was the same. Regardless of whether it was the result of going through Congress (as Reagan did) or issuing an EO (as Obama did), both instructed the Federal Government to not enforce certain federal laws with regards to deporting illegal immigrants. And let's not forget, Obama would have gladly gone through Congress... if Congress would have been willing to work with him. History on this matter is inconvenient for those on the political right, though, as republicans vowed before Obama even took office to oppose him on absolutely everything he would propose, regardless of whether it was something they publicly supported or not.

Posted via CB10

[misterabrasive]

And yet the intention was the same. Regardless of whether it was the result of going through Congress (as Reagan did) or issuing an EO (as Obama did), both instructed the Federal Government to not enforce certain federal laws with regards to deporting illegal immigrants. And let's not forget, Obama would have gladly gone through Congress... if Congress would have been willing to work with him. History on this matter is inconvenient for those on the political right, though, as republicans vowed before Obama even took office to oppose him on absolutely everything he would propose, regardless of whether it was something they publicly supported or not.

Posted via CB10

Much like the present situation with the Supreme Court vacancy.

Posted from my Verizon Z10 10.3.2.858

[Captain_Hilts]

I can cherry pick a lot more of obama's faults. I am definitely not a fan. I liked Obama during the 2004 DNC. He does not seem to be the same person.


As for W, I was young and voted for Gore. So I didn't like him. When he became a war president I liked how he rallied our people and the military. He showed conviction. I trusted our government with the Gulf War and that the Patriot Act was temporary. The economy was great for his entire tenure, minus a year or 2. However I never liked his weakness on the border during a time of war. I never liked the formation of Homeland Security. I didn't like his favortism of Wall Street during the housing boom.
Now I like him less because of the Patriot Act, and the Iraq War in retrospect and have suspicions about his motives.

As for Neoliberalism, as much as I feel we do have too much regulation, I would never want a private sector untethered. We need a balance.

Posted via Manly Passport

I'm not sure how he's not the same person. He says the exact same things he said during the 2004 Democratic National Convention, espouses the same beliefs about America and the American people, and pushes for legislation that reflect what he has long believed. If anything about him has changed, it's that his idealism has been tempered by what is factually the most obstinate and unproductive Congress in the country's history and a party that saw as its mission opposing him no matter what he said. As the jokes go, if Obama declared his love for food, republicans would starve themselves to death.

I agree with many of your criticisms of W, though I remember feeling a bit of whiplash when we suddenly turned our attention to Iraq (because... reasons) and W declared he didn't care about catching Bin Laden. The whole operation was a sham from the beginning, but I'll admit it was sold really well by Cheney, Rice, and Powell. The scare tactic of mushroom clouds proved particularly effective.

Also, yeah, he favored Wall Street over Main Street in the 2008 collapse. On that point, though, I'm not sure how you can support Ted Cruz, who is on record wanting to abolish the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and whose tax plan would benefit the exceptionally wealthy at the expense of everyone else.

Posted via CB10

[leglace1]

How in the hell could you have trusted the invasion of iraq? You'd have to be brain dead or a politician to not see how stupid and unrelated a move that was to 9/11.

Because like the majority of our population, I was emotional from 9-11 and bought the whole WMD Saddam sham and the whole take the fight there so we don't need to take it here. It was well timed.

Posted via Manly Passport

[leglace1]

And yet the intention was the same. Regardless of whether it was the result of going through Congress (as Reagan did) or issuing an EO (as Obama did), both instructed the Federal Government to not enforce certain federal laws with regards to deporting illegal immigrants. And let's not forget, Obama would have gladly gone through Congress... if Congress would have been willing to work with him. History on this matter is inconvenient for those on the political right, though, as republicans vowed before Obama even took office to oppose him on absolutely everything he would propose, regardless of whether it was something they publicly supported or not.

Posted via CB10

Obama never understood how to negotiate. Reagan never wanted to grant amnesty. He negotiated with those across the aisle in order to have the border secured. He understood that the best immigration policy started with a secure border. It keeps repeat illegals from entering, especially illegals.

As far as BHO being the same as he always was, that is not true. Remember how he said he would not sign a bill if it added to our debt. Or how he would veto any bill with pork in it and something to the effect how he would cut it with a scalpel. He was a budget hawk a long time ago. He gave W crap (said it was unAmerican) for building up 7 trillion in national debt. He is just shy of 20 trillion. That makes all the ways in the past 15 years just a drop in the bucket. Where did all this money go?

He talked about being a great uniter. Talked like he would show us how to work out differences. I have instead seen him poison the well between black Americans and the rest of the nation. The same with law enforcement. I thought he was going to be the outsider type politician. But he also became a sellout to Wall Street. Even Obamacare was a sellout to the insurance companies. They have never been richer. Those premiums were just adjusted by raising deductables.

I like Ted Cruz because he has an 89% voting record. He has always done what he promised his constituents. He is the only one I have seen actually do what he said. Trump has yet to prove anything. Other than flip flop. He also shows the moxy to stand up to corruption as he has. I watched plenty of video of him doing work at the Senate floor taking people to task who deserved it. I have never seen Rubio do anything.
I don't care for any Republicans social position. It's something that irritates me. Stop talking pandering to the religious right. I blame Karl rove for selling out the conservative party to the extreme religious right in order to get W elected. It ruined their party. Social issues are low on my list of importance since it's hardly a real agenda item for a sitting president.

Posted via Manly Passport

[Soapm]

Obama never understood how to negotiate. Reagan never wanted to grant amnesty. He negotiated with those across the aisle in order to have the border secured. He understood that the best immigration policy started with a secure border. It keeps repeat illegals from entering, especially illegals.

So sounds like Reagan, the great negotiator, fixed the border problem? And since he secured the borders, then it must be another sham claiming we have an immigration problem...

Because any negotiator that doesn't get what they negotiated for, was really a fool...

So perhaps it isn't that Obama doesn't know how to negotiate, perhaps it's that he doesn't want to be made a fool???

[Captain_Hilts]

Obama never understood how to negotiate. Reagan never wanted to grant amnesty. He negotiated with those across the aisle in order to have the border secured. He understood that the best immigration policy started with a secure border. It keeps repeat illegals from entering, especially illegals.

President Obama was not even given the CHANCE to negotiate. Sorry, but history is quite clear on this matter. Democrats did not get together before Reagan took office and conspire to block everything he would propose as republicans did before Obama took office. Democrats did not say publicly before Reagan took office that their goal was to "make him a one-term President" as republicans did before Obama took office. Democrats like Speaker O'Neill worked with Reagan and weren't shy about it; they weren't scared to death of the craziest elements of their party (the very people in the republican party to whom candidates like Trump and Cruz are making direct appeals today) because they knew that the job of Congress was to govern, not to obstruct. So, yes, Reagan negotiated precisely because Democrats were willing to listen. That cannot be said of the republican party today.

Understand this - Obama could do EXACTLY what the republican party wants him to do and they would still be against it. This is the party that painted a target on Chris Christie's chest because he dared hug President Obama, for christ's sake. He was the enemy because he dared show a measure of humanity toward the twice democratically-elected POTUS. That is pathological hatred.

As far as BHO being the same as he always was, that is not true. Remember how he said he would not sign a bill if it added to our debt. Or how he would veto any bill with pork in it and something to the effect how he would cut it with a scalpel. He was a budget hawk a long time ago. He gave W crap (said it was unAmerican) for building up 7 trillion in national debt. He is just shy of 20 trillion. That makes all the ways in the past 15 years just a drop in the bucket. Where did all this money go?

Okay, I get what you're saying, I really do, but come on, EVERY president says things during the campaign on which they know they cannot deliver (for whatever reason). Ted Cruz says he's going to do away with the CFPB, defund women's health-care, repeal the ACA, etc. Bernie Sanders says free college and Medicare for all. They're not promises; it's a rhetorical strategy to win votes, and if you turn against a person who campaigned on the unrealistic but ends up giving you what was realistic, that only shows your naivet�.

He talked about being a great uniter. Talked like he would show us how to work out differences. I have instead seen him poison the well between black Americans and the rest of the nation. The same with law enforcement. I thought he was going to be the outsider type politician. But he also became a sellout to Wall Street. Even Obamacare was a sellout to the insurance companies. They have never been richer. Those premiums were just adjusted by raising deductables.

Okay, I'm going to have to ask for clarification on this. Yes, Obama campaigned on being a uniter, but how can you fault him for the vestiges of racism still remaining in this country? After his election, membership in racist, hate, and anti-government groups rose dramatically. He did nothing to demonize law enforcement. His words and actions did not incite the young man (whose name I forget) to murder cops in Brooklyn following the incidents in Baltimore just as they did not incite that crooked Chicago cop to kill himself or those supporters of Cliven Bundy to murder cops in Las Vegas. Honestly, if you unrealistically expected him to heal the world, then you should be doing all that you can to try to solve the problems that prevented him from doing that, not hating him because he did not live up to your unrealistic expectations.

Posted via CB10

[middbrew]

You got my vote too...but I'm Canadian...does it count?

Posted via My BlackBerry PRIV cause I'm a Priviot

Yes, that counts. I've got a lot of people (both dead and alive) from the Chicago area casting a lot of votes for me. A few from Canada can't hurt.

[misterabrasive]

Yes, that counts. I've got a lot of people (both dead and alive) from the Chicago area casting a lot of votes for me. A few from Canada can't hurt.

Since they now require Identification to vote in North Carolina, I can bring a few undocumented individuals who can help you out.

Posted from my Verizon Z10 10.3.2.858

[middbrew]

Since they now require Identification to vote in North Carolina, I can bring a few undocumented individuals who can help you out.

Posted from my Verizon Z10 10.3.2.858

That's great!

[grover5]

Because like the majority of our population, I was emotional from 9-11 and bought the whole WMD Saddam sham and the whole take the fight there so we don't need to take it here. It was well timed.

Posted via Manly Passport

Then I don't trust your judgement. It was all obvious and well documented.

[grover5]

Obama never understood how to negotiate. Reagan never wanted to grant amnesty. He negotiated with those across the aisle in order to have the border secured. He understood that the best immigration policy started with a secure border. It keeps repeat illegals from entering, especially illegals.

As far as BHO being the same as he always was, that is not true. Remember how he said he would not sign a bill if it added to our debt. Or how he would veto any bill with pork in it and something to the effect how he would cut it with a scalpel. He was a budget hawk a long time ago. He gave W crap (said it was unAmerican) for building up 7 trillion in national debt. He is just shy of 20 trillion. That makes all the ways in the past 15 years just a drop in the bucket. Where did all this money go?

He talked about being a great uniter. Talked like he would show us how to work out differences. I have instead seen him poison the well between black Americans and the rest of the nation. The same with law enforcement. I thought he was going to be the outsider type politician. But he also became a sellout to Wall Street. Even Obamacare was a sellout to the insurance companies. They have never been richer. Those premiums were just adjusted by raising deductables.

I like Ted Cruz because he has an 89% voting record. He has always done what he promised his constituents. He is the only one I have seen actually do what he said. Trump has yet to prove anything. Other than flip flop. He also shows the moxy to stand up to corruption as he has. I watched plenty of video of him doing work at the Senate floor taking people to task who deserved it. I have never seen Rubio do anything.
I don't care for any Republicans social position. It's something that irritates me. Stop talking pandering to the religious right. I blame Karl rove for selling out the conservative party to the extreme religious right in order to get W elected. It ruined their party. Social issues are low on my list of importance since it's hardly a real agenda item for a sitting president.

Posted via Manly Passport

Obama never learned to negotiate? Your head remains firmly planted in the sand.

[leglace1]

President Obama was not even given the CHANCE to negotiate. Sorry, but history is quite clear on this matter. Democrats did not get together before Reagan took office and conspire to block everything he would propose as republicans did before Obama took office. Democrats did not say publicly before Reagan took office that their goal was to "make him a one-term President" as republicans did before Obama took office. Democrats like Speaker O'Neill worked with Reagan and weren't shy about it; they weren't scared to death of the craziest elements of their party (the very people in the republican party to whom candidates like Trump and Cruz are making direct appeals today) because they knew that the job of Congress was to govern, not to obstruct. So, yes, Reagan negotiated precisely because Democrats were willing to listen. That cannot be said of the republican party today.

Understand this - Obama could do EXACTLY what the republican party wants him to do and they would still be against it. This is the party that painted a target on Chris Christie's chest because he dared hug President Obama, for christ's sake. He was the enemy because he dared show a measure of humanity toward the twice democratically-elected POTUS. That is pathological hatred.



Okay, I get what you're saying, I really do, but come on, EVERY president says things during the campaign on which they know they cannot deliver (for whatever reason). Ted Cruz says he's going to do away with the CFPB, defund women's health-care, repeal the ACA, etc. Bernie Sanders says free college and Medicare for all. They're not promises; it's a rhetorical strategy to win votes, and if you turn against a person who campaigned on the unrealistic but ends up giving you what was realistic, that only shows your naivet�.



Okay, I'm going to have to ask for clarification on this. Yes, Obama campaigned on being a uniter, but how can you fault him for the vestiges of racism still remaining in this country? After his election, membership in racist, hate, and anti-government groups rose dramatically. He did nothing to demonize law enforcement. His words and actions did not incite the young man (whose name I forget) to murder cops in Brooklyn following the incidents in Baltimore just as they did not incite that crooked Chicago cop to kill himself or those supporters of Cliven Bundy to murder cops in Las Vegas. Honestly, if you unrealistically expected him to heal the world, then you should be doing all that you can to try to solve the problems that prevented him from doing that, not hating him because he did not live up to your unrealistic expectations.

Posted via CB10

Obama had an opportunity during the Ferguson riots. However, collectively, Obama has only sided against police each and every time, consistently (Ferguson, Baltimore, Beer Summit thing where police acted "stupidly", Trayvon) even if it's just a few words. It has become a new narrative, as he fans the flames in justifying racial anger. Especially with the youth. He has rushed to judgement before all facts were out on the table in at least a couple cases. We have had a couple years with some questionable issues with the police, no doubt. The one in Cleveland was ridiculous. However, he should be finding common ground between the community and the police that are protecting them. We now have greater friction. I think he did a poor job. Maybe I am nit picking, but he has no problem calling out a small percentage of crooked police officers but not a small percentage of radical muslim terrorists. We have never been so divided as a nation, and I fault him for doing a bad job on the PR. I expected him as a community organizer to have been good at finding that common ground.
Reagan tried to do the right thing without sending a message that coming here illegally is the way, but he did do a poor job with negotiating the wall. He was too trusting. Both parties winded up doing him after his tenure. My point was that what he did was so different than the executive action of using presidential discretion to not enforce certain drug laws and immigration. They have taken it further by discouraging border patrol. That is where national security is being compromised.

Obama is an activist, which is was not a big surprise to those who voted for him. But we at least expected him to not grow the government powers beyond what W Bush left us. Homeland Security has been expanded, and he did sign the NDAA into law which allows a citizen to be stripped of constitutional rights so long as the government officially deems them directly associated with terrorism and they would not be allowed to defend themselves in a court.
I thought Obama was less likely to sign that than McCain or Romney. So yes, I am disappointed with Obama being no different.


Posted via CB10

[leglace1]

Obama never learned to negotiate? Your head remains firmly planted in the sand.

Really? Tell me how well he negotiated the deal with Iran which did not include US prisoners, yet we are giving them money. We did that with N Korea, and they used the money to grow their program. Tell me how well we negotiated 5 high ranking prisoners for Bergdahl. We were never supposed to negotiate with terrorists to begin with. Where do you think those 5 guys are now. Plotting something I will bet. He is weakling when it comes to negotiations. Unfortunately, our secretary of state has been week as well. Just a disappointment.

Posted via CB10

[leglace1]

Then I don't trust your judgement. It was all obvious and well documented.

Sure how convenient when you look in retrospect. We were sold on "intel" that winded up not panning out. I love how everyone is an expert all the sudden. Most people who opposed it did so because they don't want war.

Posted via CB10

[grover5]

Really? Tell me how well he negotiated the deal with Iran which did not include US prisoners, yet we are giving them money. We did that with N Korea, and they used the money to grow their program. Tell me how well we negotiated 5 high ranking prisoners for Bergdahl. We were never supposed to negotiate with terrorists to begin with. Where do you think those 5 guys are now. Plotting something I will bet. He is weakling when it comes to negotiations. Unfortunately, our secretary of state has been week as well. Just a disappointment.

Posted via CB10

He did very well on both counts.

[grover5]

Sure how convenient when you look in retrospect. We were sold on "intel" that winded up not panning out. I love how everyone is an expert all the sudden. Most people who opposed it did so because they don't want war.

Posted via CB10

I literally didn't know anyone who felt Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. Everyone with any sense was well aware of the agenda being pursued. The fact that you were actually confused by that really underlines your inability to discern Obama's ability to negotiate. You should not discuss foreign policy.

[thurask]

South Carolina goes for Trump.

[LoneStarRed]

Obama never learned to negotiate? Your head remains firmly planted in the sand.

I agree with you Grover! Obama did the negotiation of a lifetime with Iran just now. It will be talked about for generations. They literally won't believe it. It was and is truly incredible!

"I don't think that word means what you think it means."

[leglace1]

He did very well on both counts.

I rest my argument on your statement. You seem to be happy that both Iran and ISIS are laughing that butts off by the deals they got.

Posted via CB10

[middbrew]

[thurask]

Jeb! is out.
Please clap.

[grover5]

I rest my argument on your statement. You seem to be happy that both Iran and ISIS are laughing that butts off by the deals they got.

Posted via CB10

This from the one person who believed the Iraq invasion was a reasonable answer to 9/11. Worry less about who laughs at you. That isn't what matters. Kudos on spelling Iran correctly though.

[grover5]

This from the one person who believed the Iraq invasion was a reasonable answer to 9/11. Worry less about who laughs at you. That isn't what matters. Kudos on spelling Iran correctly though.

I was at a dinner party tonight and I actually brought up the fact I had run across someone who, at the time, bought into the Iraq war. The eyes were popping out across the room.

[middbrew]

I was at a dinner party tonight and I actually brought up the fact I had run across someone who, at the time, bought into the Iraq war. The eyes were popping out across the room.

Although I am not choosing sides in this debate, I want to point out two things in regard to your statement that make it not at all surprising.

1) People are drawn to like minded people, thus, you will seek out and associate with those who have the same beliefs and ideologue as yourself. There is a comfort in group think.

2) Because all, or at least all most all the facts, of the events leading up to and after the Iraq war are now out, it's much easier to choose the pertinent view on it's appropriateness.

Therefore, views on the Iraq war, and any political agenda will have a slight tainted angle when discussing the issues.