06-29-11 06:39 AM
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  1. the_sandman_454's Avatar
    By quit, I mean cease being a productive member of a society whose goal is to take your wealth (regardless of quantity) that you have earned by your mental or physical labor and give it to those who have not earned it. These include lifetime welfare recipients, illegal aliens, foreign countries and corrupt politicians who are stealing it for social programs and other pet projects that have nothing to do with regulating trade between the states and national defense.

    The country was doomed as soon as people started realizing that electing the "right" people would guarantee them ever increasing free stuff from the Government, which as everyone knows, has no money. All "Government money" is money they take from us, the working, productive population.

    Part of the problem is the fact that many politicians treat Government money as if it comes from an endless spring that refills itself as quickly as they draw from it. They treat this Government money as their personal fund to use to buy enough votes by giving enough freebies away in order to ensure they get themselves reelected. Politicians have no qualms about borrowing from the future to pay for their programs in the present. Programs which we have no way of providing funding for short of piling more burden on the backs of the productive.

    I am just about ready to quit being productive until such a time as the Government at all levels stops wasteful spending and trying to buy votes by taking from me and giving unearned benefits to the undeserving.

    If I had sufficient funding, I might run for office as an independent. I doubt any of the bigger political parties would want me and my ideas anywhere near them.

    I'm fairly sure this will get closed, but I thought we were having a good, civil discussion in the TBL thread, and I didn't want to get that thread closed or take away from what that thread is about. Maybe if we keep it civil here too they might keep it open.
    05-15-11 07:53 AM
  2. john_v's Avatar
    I think we need more independents. Both parties (and I mean Both) are plagued by the same "power hungry" problems. We need more people who are less beholden to their party and more beholden to their constituents.
    The problem (as you alluded to) is apathy. As long as people have their american idol, angry birds, and super grande lattes, they will continue to be apathetic. It's scary if you start to compare our society with the society of the Roman empire when it fell. The phrase "Bread and circuses" comes to mind.
    05-15-11 02:25 PM
  3. the_sandman_454's Avatar
    I agree, apathy seems to lurk near the heart of the problem with our current society.

    One of the saddest creatures in existence is a human being who doesn't know what he/she wants or knows what he/she wants but won't expend the effort needed to get it him/herself. Those who simply want unearned things given to them.

    Another issue I have these days is very few people will talk to you straight in honest, direct language. People elect officials not based on facts, figures, and past history, but based on lies, made up statistics and dishonest projections.

    A large chunk of people in this country do not want anyone honest holding political office. These people are terrified of the truth. I, on the other hand, want officials and the general public I need to deal with/interact with to use direct, honest language. Seriously, I'm mature enough mentally to be able to deal with bad news. Yes, bad news sucks, but life isn't all sunshine and puppies, and you do yourself a disservice if you try to convince yourself otherwise.

    Finally (for now) I come to the point about people doing nice/kind/helpful things for people who refuse to help themselves. If you do something to help the apathetic people of America remain apathetic, you are contributing to the problem in this country. Until such people have nobody left who is willing to perform tasks for them and have to choose to either wake up to face reality or starve because they're too apathetic to get themselves some food and prepare it, these people will not wake up and realize that nobody owes them a living.

    Some people I know are this way, they won't cut their lawn, take their trash to the compactor or anything like that. Their relatives end up doing these things, thinking they're helping them. Their relatives are essentially living for the two who won't step up and take care of themselves. (Both individuals are able bodied and could help themselves if they had to/wanted to). This is frustrating, but I can't just step in and explain to the people who think they're doing the slackers a favor that, in reality, they are enabling a very unproductive/destructive behavior (the destruction of one's self via apathy).

    It might make you feel good to do things for others even though they're blackmailing you through a sense of guilt or sense of duty to them because they're related to you or other reasons. The truth is that you owe these apathetic people nothing, regardless of your relationship to them.

    Just bear in mind that when you do things for those who will not act for themselves, you are enabling this behavior. By enabling this behavior, you are helping the apathetic ignore reality. They will continue to not act to help themselves before demanding others help them, and the longer this behavior continues, the less likely they will be able to handle reality when it comes crashing down upon them.
    Last edited by the_sandman_454; 05-15-11 at 04:40 PM.
    05-15-11 03:05 PM
  4. kbz1960's Avatar
    No, no, no I don't .................. yes we've become sheeple. And I'm tired of it too.
    05-15-11 03:57 PM
  5. trucky's Avatar
    They say a family of four can now have one person work one week per month and make the same amount as a person earning $60,000 per year and working 50 hours per week. This is what our handout society has become. We encourage hundreds of thousands to not work, to be lazy, to expect everything to be given to them. They are entitled and it's their "right" to have a nice home, car, cell phone, ad nauseum. This sickness is pervasive and has nearly reached the tipping point of no return.

    Roughly 47% of all Americans paid 0 federal income taxes last year. Why in the world would those people ever vote for someone who was fiscally responsible and trying to properly budget our money?
    05-16-11 06:32 AM
  6. highjakker's Avatar
    do 2 things, just two and it would greatly impact our society...bring back the chain-gang and install mandatory monthly drug testing for all welfare recipients.

    with the chain gang you would make criminals or those who have no fear of the law think twice before committing crimes such as drug dealing, shoplifting, credit fraud or whatever else.
    05-16-11 08:49 AM
  7. trucky's Avatar
    Still running chain gangs here in NC. You feel like you're in Cool Hand Luke when you drive by. One bossman up front with a huge shotgun over his shoulder, another one in back with the same weapon in a more ready position. They use them to pick up trash along the roadways.
    05-16-11 09:50 AM
  8. highjakker's Avatar
    i had so much to say earlier but my darned job kept getting in the way....

    as a society we are too politically correct & too litigation happy. we are so scared to offend anyone because there is some lawyer out there who will take up their case to sue you for it. we can't tell people to get off their lazy a$$es and get a job.

    i live across the street from a church and on saturday's they give food away to the "needy". you should see all the new-ish looking cars parked and ready to get their 2 bags of food. people have no qualms taking advantage of good willed people or organizations. as stated earlier they feel it is their right to be given whatever they need or want or feel that they are required to receive. self-respect and hard work have been replaced by "me first" and "get what you can get" mentalities.

    this is just a theory and i am by no means a male chauvinist but i feel we became soft when women started to vote. the officials realized that women brought a large voting pool to them and they had softer views or a different way of looking at things than men and officials started to change their running platforms and "ideals" to cater to the female vote.

    we've gone from a world superpower to a world nurturer and people from within and outside are taking advantage of it. i hate that if 2 illegals have a child here it is automatically a US citizen. i hate that illegal immigration has become so heated, i mean, what part of illegal do you not get?? i understand the argument that illegals do alot of the work that no one else wants to do but if you make those welfare slackers do at least 1 week of mandatory work a month to continue their aid such as maintaining rest areas, trash pick-up, pot hole repair, farm work, mopping school floors, volunteering at hospitals, etc. it would drastically change what we are facing. and that is a bleak future for my 2 year old son and his chances of having a family, (how can he afford to? i mean, he's already got to face a tax debt that he had nothing to do with)

    civil unrest is rising and sooner or later something is gonna give and i believe it's gonna happen after the next election......if you can't hunt or fish you better be prepared to pay the guy who can!!!!

    sorry if this rambled and went from point A to point M and back to B....
    kbz1960 likes this.
    05-16-11 10:37 AM
  9. the_sandman_454's Avatar
    I guess I find it difficult to believe there are only five of us who feel this way around here. How can any man or woman like the idea of an entity stealing his/her life and giving it to those who do not produce, who do not support themselves, who refuse to trade parts of their lives for their own wealth?

    That is what money truly is, where your paycheck comes from. You are trading portion of your life to your employer in exchange for a negotiated amount of their money. Trading is the only way of life. It does not have to involve money.

    It involves non monetary things too, such as relationships both friendships and more intimate ones. You have these because you find value in them. Some try to hold you captive by preying on your values, by trying to make you feel bad if you don't do what they want at the expense of what you want.

    These friendships or relationships can be harmful if they get out of hand. If a friendship or relationship makes you unhappy, you owe it to yourself to end it. Don't do things for others unless you want to. You are beholden to nobody.
    05-17-11 09:42 AM
  10. john_v's Avatar
    I guess it goes back to apathy. Some people just don't care (and I'm not accusing anyone on this site specifically). I think today there's a pervasive attitude of "what can I do? My vote doesn't count, etc." I think most people feel like they can't really make a difference, so why bother? Just hunker down and take care of yourslef and your family
    This past elections I volunteered on a congressional campaign. No one gave the guy a chance in the primary and he won. His own party didn't even send him support in the general election; everyone just assumed the incumbant was so entrenched there wasn't a chance. He won by about 250 votes. My point is your vote does count (although most of the time it may not seem like it) and never underestimate a group of people passionate about their cause (that goes for anything, not just politics)
    Real change won't happen until people get mad enough to change the status quo.

    Vote the Sandman Party 2012!

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-17-11 11:13 AM
  11. hootyhoo's Avatar
    What !?!?!?!?
    You mean you don't want to support me?
    But I'm special!
    You owe me!
    The world owes me!
    I'm here! It's me!
    Someone take care of me!

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    05-17-11 11:57 AM
  12. the_sandman_454's Avatar
    What !?!?!?!?
    You mean you don't want to support me?
    But I'm special!
    You owe me!
    The world owes me!
    I'm here! It's me!
    Someone take care of me!

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Tell you what, if you can do a better job of campaigning/holding an office than me, I'll be proud to campaign for you instead...
    05-17-11 07:41 PM
  13. the_sandman_454's Avatar
    I guess it goes back to apathy. Some people just don't care (and I'm not accusing anyone on this site specifically). I think today there's a pervasive attitude of "what can I do? My vote doesn't count, etc." I think most people feel like they can't really make a difference, so why bother? Just hunker down and take care of yourslef and your family
    This past elections I volunteered on a congressional campaign. No one gave the guy a chance in the primary and he won. His own party didn't even send him support in the general election; everyone just assumed the incumbant was so entrenched there wasn't a chance. He won by about 250 votes. My point is your vote does count (although most of the time it may not seem like it) and never underestimate a group of people passionate about their cause (that goes for anything, not just politics)
    Real change won't happen until people get mad enough to change the status quo.

    Vote the Sandman Party 2012!

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    I have not been nearly as active politically as I should have been in the 12 years since I've been able to vote. I have never missed voting in an election, but I have never directly supported a candidate nor have I thought seriously about trying to throw my name into the hat.

    Congratulations on getting your candidate elected, after what sounds to have been a very hard fought campaign with no real support from a party even.

    I do wonder though if it would be enough to simply get some better, more fiscally responsible and constitutionally aware legislators at both the state and the national levels, governors, president, and so forth. I can't imagine it being sufficient even if we had a house and a senate full of realists who talk honestly and will not pass current debt onto future generations, but rather work to slash spending to being it back under control within the next decade.

    Ending the gravy train would probably lead to riots and other forms of unrest and panic among those whose lives have been built around the current system of robbing from the productive and giving to the unproductive.

    I'm not sure that would solve the problem, or if enough politicians would even ever amass in power to even say enough is enough. Technically, it would be career suicide, since the roughly 48% of those who don't pay taxes and receive at minimum "refunds" currently would vote them out so fast our heads would spin.

    I think the only real way to permanently fix the problem will ultimately be how the productive people fixed it in Atlas Shrugged: by quitting and taking up menial jobs where society could no longer mooch off of their productive efforts. We aren't to the tipping point yet, but every additional tax, fee, handout program, round of foreign aid, etc brings us another little bit closer.

    There was a rumor about the current administration floating a mileage tax on vehicles, as if fuel prices aren't high enough already. Many folks like to complain about the oil companies, but some figures I've seen suggest they only make around $0.10/gallon profit on gasoline sales, while the government makes significantly more than that. I find this to be disgusting, especially considering the poor condition of most of the roads.

    I suspect if there was only one tax for everything rather than income, excise, property, vehicle registration, etc, far more people would far closer to cutting off their support of the system.
    05-17-11 07:59 PM
  14. SCrid2000's Avatar
    Don't get me started. I'll talk your ear off on this one, and in the end we'll both be irritated and the gov't will still be a mess, and will always be a mess, and any politician you vote for will instantly be corrupt the moment the election is over.

    Friends don't let friends run for office.
    05-17-11 09:02 PM
  15. the_sandman_454's Avatar
    Don't get me started. I'll talk your ear off on this one, and in the end we'll both be irritated and the gov't will still be a mess, and will always be a mess, and any politician you vote for will instantly be corrupt the moment the election is over.

    Friends don't let friends run for office.
    Go ahead, it's your turn. I've said enough for the moment, except to give you this:

    Michigan man still on food stamps despite winning $2M | Detroit Free Press | freep.com

    A man from Michigan won $2 million in the lottery and stayed on food stamps. In fact he said he called the welfare office and was told he could.

    The system is doomed. How could this man sleep at night knowing he was stealing from productive tax payers when he theoretically should have had the means to support himself?

    Every story like this should push everyone an inch closer to ceasing their contributions to this ridiculously parasitic society.
    05-17-11 09:16 PM
  16. trucky's Avatar
    In NC they are talking about having a person volunteer 5 hours a week for community service after they've been on unemployment more than 8 weeks. It goes up to 10 hours a week after another period. I doubt it will pass the governor's desk but it's at least a step in the right direction.

    I believe that if every "able-bodied" person receiving assistance were required to put in a minimal amount of hours per week, giving back to the community that is ultimately supporting them, that those dependency rolls would be greatly reduced in short order.

    There is no doubt that there are many who absolutely require, deserve and need assistance in one form or another, and I am not at all against that. But, when a person has been on unemployment for close to two years and still has not found any work... I find it hard to believe.

    They may not be able to find their dream job, or even a good job in the field of their choice, but there are always jobs to be had in most communities.
    05-18-11 06:55 AM
  17. TnTimberry's Avatar
    "I think the only real way to permanently fix the problem will ultimately be how the productive people fixed it in Atlas Shrugged"

    LOVE that movie! Have the book now to see where it goes. No, more than five of us who think this way!
    05-18-11 07:19 AM
  18. highjakker's Avatar
    i had a customer who got laid off. after 2 months he got another job and called to cancel his benefits. they told him that he gets it for 9 months and that he will continue to receive them.

    this is the kind of stuff that is killing our system and corrupting whatever good intentions we do: the people who work for these entityies are too lazy to do their jobs! they are too lazy to go out and check on those receiving our money and just let them keep renewing and sucking off our collective teats!!!!
    05-18-11 07:35 AM
  19. kbz1960's Avatar
    Go ahead, it's your turn. I've said enough for the moment, except to give you this:

    Michigan man still on food stamps despite winning $2M | Detroit Free Press | freep.com

    A man from Michigan won $2 million in the lottery and stayed on food stamps. In fact he said he called the welfare office and was told he could.

    The system is doomed. How could this man sleep at night knowing he was stealing from productive tax payers when he theoretically should have had the means to support himself?

    Every story like this should push everyone an inch closer to ceasing their contributions to this ridiculously parasitic society.
    If I were this guy I'd find some people to give those food stamps to that need them if they won't stop sending them to him.

    I'm actually for the fair tax if anyone has heard of that.

    I can see how people get stuck in this crap. Why would anyone take a job for minimum wage to make less and struggle more then they do on unemployment or welfare? They aren't all lazy but there sure are a number that are.

    I also love how the government tells everyone else to do with less, take a pay cut etc. when the whole time they vote themselves a raise and don't even need to spend the money they make because tax payers pay for everything they do.................... disgusting. Then they raise taxes or create new ones.

    Everything they seem to create or implement seems to get diverted to wherever. Lottery, will help schools (schools are still crap here and send kids (read their parents) out to sell crap people don't want), will help roads (in IL our roads are absolute crap!), will go to help.......... from what I see it hasn't done anything but line someones pockets!

    Bah need to shut up.
    05-18-11 08:03 AM
  20. trucky's Avatar
    This guy doesn't even feel bad about continuing to use food stamps... So... he is a millionaire, even after taxes, and still takes the government handout. Like sandman says, I don't know how he sleeps at night. Whoever is in charge of that food stamp program should be fired.



    AUBURN, Mich. A man who won $2 million on a Michigan lottery show has told TV5 that he still uses food stamps.
    Leroy Fick of Bay County admitted he still swipes the electronic card at stores, nearly a year after winning a jackpot on Make Me Rich! He told TV5′s Bill Walsh that more than half the prize went to taxes.
    Fick said the Department of Human Services told him he could continue to use the card, which is paid with Michigan tax dollars.
    If youre going to try to make me feel bad, you arent going to do it, said Fick.
    [...]
    DHS spokeswoman Gisgie Gendreau said under federal guidelines, if a person receives a lump-sum payment, the winnings are not counted as income.
    05-18-11 09:33 AM
  21. rollingrock1988's Avatar
    1. We are becoming too politically correct
    2. The 2 party system is created to divide the country. (Divide and conquer.)
    3. The media would rather report on what person said the N word or who wants to discontinue the support of Israel for months at a time, rather than focus on things of importance. This is used as a distraction.
    4. The race card needs to be torn up and all people need to take responsibility for their actions.
    5. Affirmative action needs to be abolished.
    6. It should be a requirement that people elected into office should not have direct contact with the rest of the business community and/or shouldn't own any vested interest in any of the matters. i.e. energy and oil.
    7. Americans need to focus on what's important: more people are talking about gay marriage rather than our economy and education system. Priorities need to be reorganized. If we improve our education system, our economy will be strengthened and more educated people will be in power. This leads way to the abolition of the current system of marriage.
    8. We need to secure our borders and get the disease known as illegal aliens out of this country.
    9. Power needs to be put back in to the STATES hands rather than the federal government's hands.
    10. We need to return to the system that was originally set up. The power is not in our hands, it's in the hands of a few at the top.
    kbz1960 and highjakker like this.
    05-18-11 11:45 AM
  22. pixel8rberry's Avatar
    Do you guys realize, that you have more common sense than the current politicians?

    Also, beware that this kind of discussion might not be tolerated on CB. Several threads have been shutdown because they were not PC. SMH...
    05-18-11 01:45 PM
  23. the_sandman_454's Avatar
    I know this discussion is at best borderline verboten, that's why I made this thread rather than continue what I had started in TBL. If they choose to shut it down, that's their right. They can temporarily ban me if they feel I deserve it for blatantly going against forum rules. I was just curious how many like minded individuals we have in here.

    It isn't so much that we have more sense than the current politicians. They know exactly what they're doing. Some might say buying power at the expense of everyone else is sheer genius. The only difference between us and them is we live by different moral codes. They feel it is right to steal from those with ability and give to those without. The only reason they can get away with doing it is because we have allowed them to. More of us seem to be realizing it every day though. Eventually it will form a tide they cannot withstand and it will sweep through the nation, restoring proper order.
    Last edited by the_sandman_454; 05-18-11 at 03:14 PM.
    05-18-11 03:09 PM
  24. SCrid2000's Avatar
    I would say that we appear to have more common sense than most politicians by virtue of not being politicians
    Think about what politicians do - they balance the interests of the electorate and big business/special interests, and make choices based on their desire to keep their over inflated salaries and tax-funded benefit packages. They exercise common sense - common sense dictates that the squeaky wheels get greased, deep wallets get catered to, and politicians keep their jobs.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    highjakker likes this.
    05-18-11 04:18 PM
  25. the_sandman_454's Avatar
    Taxes are rising across the country these days. Property tax, various government entities are pondering increasing the fuel tax, and the current administration floated the idea of an additional tax per mile.

    Redistibution of wealth is an evil concept at its' very core. It preys on the productive. One side effect of this is that it eventually causes productivity to decline, afterall, when you are forced to work for the benefit of others rather than for yourself, it is only natural to become disheartened.

    I was just having this discussion with someone on a different board about a certain party being more or less synonymous with socialism and "free stuff"/entitlement.

    The best comparison I could come up with is slavery. As far as I am concerned, at certain rates of taxation, an individual ceases to work freely for him/herself, and instead becomes a slave. I am absolutely sick to death of the idea of being society's slave simply because I happen to be one of the productive members in said society.

    What is everyone's personal tipping point for where you would cease considering yourself free and have to choose between being productive and being a slave to society? When society steals 30% of what you earn? 40%? 50? Where is your personal line drawn?
    05-29-11 10:16 AM
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