10-02-08 07:45 PM
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  1. roninksb's Avatar
    No, Ronin, you would actually need to do a little research to find Senator Clinton's and Biden's attacks on OBama.

    But you will.
    You missed the point or you are trying to change it. Your statement was that McCain had not argued that Obama was wrong for the job becuase of his lack of experience. The point of my post was to direct you to a tidbit of evidence to the contrary.

    I am well aware of the fact that both Clinton and Biden made similar (if not identical arguments). My hope was that when confronted with a little factual info you might concede that McCain had made this argument as well. Since I was talking about McCain's hypocracy not Clinton's or Biden's.

    I note that, as I said previously, I believe it is a bogus argument in any event.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    09-02-08 12:27 AM
  2. amazinglygraceless's Avatar
    This is the NO-Spin text of Senator Durbin's Statement
    Pay attention to the bolded section


    On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18–24 hours or more. On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold. ... On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night. On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor.

    If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime — Pol Pot or others — that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners."[

    It should be obvious to anyone with a whit of intelligence that he was not accusing our troops, but pointing out that any decent
    American who heard or read that would not think that was what
    America would do..

    The spin above me is simply ridiculous.

    Durbin was not accusing the troops, just pointing out the obvious. And they were not his
    words but the words of an FBI Agent
    Last edited by amazinglygraceless; 09-02-08 at 12:36 AM.
    09-02-08 12:33 AM
  3. bjsgarda's Avatar
    You missed the point or you are trying to change it. Your statement was that McCain had not argued that Obama was wrong for the job becuase of his lack of experience. The point of my post was to direct you to a tidbit of evidence to the contrary.

    I am well aware of the fact that both Clinton and Biden made similar (if not identical arguments). My hope was that when confronted with a little factual info you might concede that McCain had made this argument as well. Since I was talking about McCain's hypocracy not Clinton's or Biden's.

    I note that, as I said previously, I believe it is a bogus argument in any event.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    IS THIS A BOGUS ARGUMENT?
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RoninKSB
    You sure?

    How about this: John McCain 2008 - John McCain for President

    I note that this TV ad is a pretty decent distortion of the facts.
    What was distorted?

    Obama
    Never held a hearing on Afghanistan

    He wasn't in Iraq in over 900 days. McCain was the one who suggested that he should go to Iraq after not being there in almost 900 days.

    He voted against funding for the troops
    HR 2006 CQ VOTE #184 MAY 24, 2007
    THAT'S WHEN HE SAID THE SURGE WONT WORK

    He couldn't have a photo op in military hospital while on his Europe people of the world tour. As a US Senator he is allowed to inspect any Military facility any time or place. He wasn't allowed to bring the media into hospital so he cancelled the visit.

    That's the facts


    09-02-08 12:34 AM
  4. BamaSteve's Avatar
    IS THIS A BOGUS ARGUMENT?
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RoninKSB
    You sure?

    How about this: John McCain 2008 - John McCain for President

    I note that this TV ad is a pretty decent distortion of the facts.
    What was distorted?

    Obama
    Never held a hearing on Afghanistan

    He wasn't in Iraq in over 900 days. McCain was the one who suggested that he should go to Iraq after not being there in almost 900 days.

    He voted against funding for the troops
    HR 2006 CQ VOTE #184 MAY 24, 2007
    THAT'S WHEN HE SAID THE SURGE WONT WORK

    He couldn't have a photo op in military hospital while on his Europe people of the world tour. As a US Senator he is allowed to inspect any Military facility any time or place. He wasn't allowed to bring the media into hospital so he cancelled the visit.

    That's the facts


    I hope you aren't holding your breath for a response, I can't get any response on two separate things I've posted.
    09-02-08 12:37 AM
  5. BamaSteve's Avatar
    AG, I would like to say that at least you have not gone personal with these discussions. While I don't think I agree with you 100%, I can take what you say and think about it.

    Resorting to personal attacks rather than policy discussion is what brings politics down.
    09-02-08 12:40 AM
  6. BamaSteve's Avatar
    This is the NO-Spin text of Senator Durbin's Statement
    Pay attention to the bolded section


    On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 1824 hours or more. On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold. ... On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night. On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor.

    If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime Pol Pot or others that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners."[

    It should be obvious to anyone with a whit of intelligence that he was not accusing our troops, but pointing out that any decent
    American who heard or read that would not think that was what
    America would do..

    The spin above me is simply ridiculous.

    Durbin was not accusing the troops, just pointing out the obvious. And they were not his
    words but the words of an FBI Agent
    oh come on...he put Americans on the same level as Nazis, no he didn't do it directly, but he did indirectly
    09-02-08 12:42 AM
  7. w00dy65's Avatar
    Let's take a former beauty queen/sports caster and make her mayor. Then, how bout make her governor for LESS than 2 years- then why not let her be the VP of our country??!!! Suuuree. That's a great idea!! lemmie tell ya...... How bout vanna white for president!!! "I'd like to buy a vowel please" we need a vp we can take seriously!! Someone with REAL experience!!!

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Sounds like she's more experienced than her opponents...that statement didn't really hold much water! LOL!
    09-02-08 12:46 AM
  8. bjsgarda's Avatar
    This is the NO-Spin text of Senator Durbin's Statement
    Pay attention to the bolded section


    On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18–24 hours or more. On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold. ... On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night. On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor.

    If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime — Pol Pot or others — that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners."[

    It should be obvious to anyone with a whit of intelligence that he was not accusing our troops, but pointing out that any decent
    American who heard or read that would not think that was what
    America would do..

    The spin above me is simply ridiculous.

    Durbin was not accusing the troops, just pointing out the obvious. And they were not his
    words but the words of an FBI Agent
    Durbin said it and you're reading word from word of the congressional record not the video tape of his statement. When his comments blow up in his face he backtracked and said he was quoting an FBI agent. WAS GENERAL WESLEY CLARK SPINNING THE FACTS TOO?

    You didn't mentioned had he try to draw parallels in the beginning of his speech to the disgraceful internment of the Japanese Americans during WW II to captured enemy combatants that were captured on the fields in AFGANISTSTAN trying to kill our troops as well directly involved with the 911 attacks.
    Last edited by Garz; 09-02-08 at 03:25 PM. Reason: font size toooo big
    09-02-08 12:53 AM
  9. amazinglygraceless's Avatar
    AG, I would like to say that at least you have not gone personal with these discussions. While I don't think I agree with you 100%, I can take what you say and think about it.

    Resorting to personal attacks rather than policy discussion is what brings politics down.
    Damn Steve, I went from hero to goat in a hot second. I just approach politics
    with an open mind. You and I may not agree, but we are Americans and we
    are free to work it out the way we do. I have no disrespect or disregard for
    your opinion. I hope you know that.
    09-02-08 12:59 AM
  10. John Yester's Avatar
    Umm WTF why are we having a political Debate in the Blackberry Discussion section........

    Come people...........
    09-02-08 01:06 AM
  11. BamaSteve's Avatar
    Damn Steve, I went from hero to goat in a hot second. I just approach politics
    with an open mind. You and I may not agree, but we are Americans and we
    are free to work it out the way we do. I have no disrespect or disregard for
    your opinion. I hope you know that.
    Of course I know that, I hope you know the same. And I'll admit I find a lot of conservatives that go on and on about that same thing over and over without really understanding. I still like their vote

    My real problem with this election stems from the large mass (which is an underestimate) of people that blindly follow Obama without knowing anything about him, his past, his views, or anything. The whole "change you can believe in" has got me sick. What does that mean?

    I'll admit there are ignorant voters on both sides, and I don't think they will ever be swayed. However, there are people like you, that are the independent swing vote. Those are the ones I'm after to talk to.

    Great little experiment to do is find an Obama supporter and ask them to name several issues they are for that Obama is for. My guess is the response will have the word "change" in it.
    09-02-08 01:06 AM
  12. BamaSteve's Avatar
    Umm WTF why are we having a political Debate in the Blackberry Discussion section........

    Come people...........
    well, I know it's not necessarily right, but I think more people should be exposed to politics. More than the popular media.
    09-02-08 01:07 AM
  13. exelant's Avatar
    I'm with you yester. No one here is going to convince anyone of anything . Can we get back to the business of berrying?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    09-02-08 01:10 AM
  14. w00dy65's Avatar
    I know who Sarah Palin is, she's HOT, she has 2 blackberry's, and she can fire automatic weapons!

    But what I wanna know is...who is this Iraq Alabama guy that everyone keeps referring to? Did he grow up without a daddy? Does he have a blackberry? Maybe an iPhone? Nah...blackberry would be the way to go!

    I'm just saying... (Cheese)
    09-02-08 01:12 AM
  15. exelant's Avatar
    He does have a berry. A titanium curve.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    09-02-08 01:16 AM
  16. bjsgarda's Avatar
    He does have a berry. A titanium curve.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    I'm overjoyed now me and the chosen one have the same curve. lol
    09-02-08 01:25 AM
  17. w00dy65's Avatar
    He does have a berry. A titanium curve.
    Hey! So do I!!! I think I'm gonna run for city council...LOL
    09-02-08 01:32 AM
  18. Hrshycro's Avatar
    OK, Now that I have caught up with everything here...a FEW THINGS!

    1: obamas wife fell off of a freaking sidewalk texting on her bb...how the **** can you do that? I Drive, mow the lawn, ect all just fine without causing any harm to me other anyone else!

    2: obama thinks that America has 60 sates, not 50!

    3: If he gets in were all pretty much F'ed!
    09-02-08 01:59 AM
  19. w00dy65's Avatar
    09-02-08 02:02 AM
  20. TvTechGuru's Avatar
    She is an outsider, that's the best for McCain. She isn't one of the Washington insiders like Biden. Though I like him cause he's tough.

    But I don't know about anyone else, I have "Electile Dysfunction" this time around.

    Electile Dysfunction: The inability to become aroused over any of the choices for President put forth by either party during an election year. LOL

    I'm on the fence... I like Obama but I saw a town hall meeting where he said Russia was a bigger threat to the U.S. than Iran, Syria and other middle eastern countries. Ha! How naive can he be? Russia is no threat, Middle east countries and North Korea are the biggest threats.

    As far as McCain, I give him respect for his veteran qualities and all. But he's too much like Bush, if you want another 4 years of Bush, vote for McCain, haha.

    So yeah, maybe I'll vote for Nader
    09-02-08 02:27 AM
  21. w00dy65's Avatar
    Electile Dysfunction...that was a good one!
    09-02-08 02:38 AM
  22. Blueraven's Avatar
    I've enjoyed reading through this debate, even though this is not a political site, this thread certainly shows that people are passionate about their beliefs.
    Whether you lean to the left, the right or are in the middle, being passionate is a good thing.

    I am a right wing conservative and frankly there's no one who will convince me to vote for O'Bama. Not because I hate O'Bama or I think he cannot succeed in being the leader of this Country but because I don't believe in the base idealisms of the Democrat party and I don't believe O'bama's ready to represent me.

    As for experience, there was a former Republican actor who turned Governor that later became President, do you remember him?

    There was a former Democrat Governor that later became President, do you remember him?

    How much foreign relations experience did either one of them have? So I don't think that is a major reason to vote for either O'bama or McCain.

    The fact that O'bama and Palin have limited World experience is certainly an issue that should be addressed, however I feel more importantly should a person's 2nd in command be more qualified than he/she is? Of these two, who is the one that is to be in command?
    Biden is more experienced than O'bama and McCain is more experienced than Palin.

    As for McCain, there is no doubt that he is up in years, but my Grandfather just passed away at the age of 98 and frankly he at 72 had a lot more experience, leadership and down right common sense than just about anyone that I know who's under 60.

    I cringe at the thought of him being written off at the age of 72.

    O'bama is young, energetic, and brings fresh ideas with him.

    McCain is seasoned, experienced and brings a history of not going with the flow, but rather going with what he feels is right.

    I would certainly add more about O'bama, but frankly there's not much history.

    I think that O'bama is running for President about 10 years sooner than he should be.

    But as I stated earlier, we are all passionate about our beliefs and that's a good thing.

    As for who I'm voting for, I don't think that's in question however if O'bama is elected to be President of these United States, I certainly will throw my support and loyalty toward him, because at the end of the day we are not just a right wing conservatives or left wing liberals but rather Americans and none of us should forget that.

    Blueraven
    09-02-08 05:38 AM
  23. roninksb's Avatar
    IS THIS A BOGUS ARGUMENT?
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RoninKSB
    You sure?

    How about this: John McCain 2008 - John McCain for President

    I note that this TV ad is a pretty decent distortion of the facts.
    What was distorted?

    Obama
    Never held a hearing on Afghanistan

    He wasn't in Iraq in over 900 days. McCain was the one who suggested that he should go to Iraq after not being there in almost 900 days.

    He voted against funding for the troops
    HR 2006 CQ VOTE #184 MAY 24, 2007
    THAT'S WHEN HE SAID THE SURGE WONT WORK

    He couldn't have a photo op in military hospital while on his Europe people of the world tour. As a US Senator he is allowed to inspect any Military facility any time or place. He wasn't allowed to bring the media into hospital so he cancelled the visit.

    That's the facts


    Does the change in font make it more factual? Irrefutable?

    First, it is a fact that Obama canceled a visit to Landstuhl Regional Medical Center at the last minute after planning it for weeks, that reporters and their cameras would not have been allowed to accompany him, and Obama probably did go to the gym that day because he does so practically every day (sometimes twice a day). Thus the bare facts stated in the ad are true but Obama says, he canceled when he learned that the Pentagon would not allow him to bring a retired Air Force major general serving as a foreign policy adviser to his campaign. Obama says that "triggered then a concern that maybe our visit was going to be perceived as political." Further, it is unlikely that he did not go because there would be no cameras/press present because the Pentagon did not allow cameras/press to be present on previous occassions when he visited the troops (DOD rules prohibit it when part of a campaign, i.e. not in official capacity as Senator). In fact, he had visited wounded troops in Baghdad earlier in the same overseas trip without the press.

    As to the vote against the funding, the statement is an oversimplification. First, Obama has voted for all war-funding bills
    (10 times) that have come to the Senate floor since he was sworn in except for this one. The reason for the vote was because the Dems were seeking a provision in the bill calling for a withdrawal of the troops. Furthermore, McCain himself took a similar stand on principal regarding a war-funding bill that contained withdrawal language, he was absent for the vote on the bill but urged the President to veto it. Thus it would be literally true to say that the President voted against funding the troops and that McCain urged a veto of funding for our troops but that too would be an oversimplification.

    As to the Aghanistan hearings, while it is literally true that Obama has held no Senate hearings on Afghanistan, he is chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee's subcommittee on European Affairs which would not hold such hearings. However, the full Senate Foreign Relations Committee, has held three hearings on Afghanistan during the past two years, and Obama attended one of them. It is worth noting that durung the same two year period McCain's record is no better. he's the highest ranking Republican on the Senate Armed Services Committee and he missed all seven of the hearings that his panel held on Afghanistan.

    Prior to this ad, Obama had last been in Iraq in January 2006 (he was on his way there at the time the ad aired), I guess that makes the 900 days comment literally true, though I submit that the intention was to make it seem longer than 2 and half years.

    Those are the facts and the distortions.
    09-02-08 05:40 AM
  24. w00dy65's Avatar
    Indivisible with liberty and justice for ALL!!!
    09-02-08 09:12 AM
  25. detman101's Avatar
    The thought of that makes my brain hurt. Mark my words, if McCain wins, I'm leaving the country and never coming back. Another d-bag thoughtless moron Republican in office will be the last nail in our country's coffin.
    Amen!!!


    Dm
    09-02-08 09:16 AM
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