[kb5zht]

I agree with you it did work for awhile. They had a virtual monopoly on the smart phone market until 2007/2008, but they became complacent and haven't been able to counter the market.

Okay so why cant anybody else seem to grasp this fact?

They ran the only show in town and so they did fantastic.
l
A basic fundamental for any long term successful company is that they have to be flexible to meet ever changing public taste... unless the name brand recognition is powerful enough to overcome this. I reference Coca-cola for example.

Those two gentlemen gambled they had enough name brand recognition with blackberry. They gambled wrong and risks are a part of the modern business world BUT months became quarters and became years and laz and bal refused, absolutely refused to concede defeat and start (1) releasing more competitive device and (2) tightening up operating discipline in the software department.... translate that into requiring their firmware people to show more progress.

If the lion's share of resources were commited to playbook OS development, why did it get released with no bbm? the majority of features still unaccounted for? In the development labs where code is being cranked out, are programmers being required to literally stay at their stations and knock out the donut breaks and make something?

Here is a sobering projection... at the rate features have been added to this device, it will be nowhere near the expectation laz and bal fostered in their customer base by the end of this year.

Frequent updates you say? yea that amounts to nothing when the updates do not manifest new features at an acceptable rate. How many new features have been added that are considered core since the release two months ago.... bbm? a fix for the bridge browser? one a month! Do the math. Unless future OS updates accelerate in terms of features added.... when can we expect native mail, native calender, autocorrect, etc.? An update every week wouldnt even do it before christmas.

New platform you say? Its been 8 months+ since the formal announcement this thing was under development and we all know it was being evolved earlier than that (remember the chip change ordeal delaying the launch until after the holiday season of 2010.)

What in the devil are the firmware people doing with their time?

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[_StephenBB81]

But remember, 'it is the END that justifies the means'.

Have a good Sunday everyone......

so right now is part of the means. as it is my opinion we are far from the END of the RIM saga.

[missing_K-W]

RIM's main problem is not Mike L or Jim B....

RIM has a bureaucracy that makes it very difficult for inter department communicating and hold ups...

These primarily stem from managers and teams not working together effectively as well as RIM's legal team severely holding up progress!

[sleepngbear]

RIM's main problem is not Mike L or Jim B....

RIM has a bureaucracy that makes it very difficult for inter department communicating and hold ups...

These primarily stem from managers and teams not working together effectively as well as RIM's legal team severely holding up progress!

If that's true, indirectly it is Mike and/or Jim's responsibility. Leadership sets the corporate atmosphere and the corporate culture. If they have built an organization wrought with obstacles to communication and interdepartmental cooperation, that's as much their doing as failing to recognize the threat the iPhone represented back in 2007 and the company's inability to get new products to market on time today. Other side of the coin is the culture Heir Jobs has nurtured at Apple.

[dandbj13]

In all of this discussion about what when wrong, iPhone has not been spoken, as if taboo. Well, time to break the taboo. The problem is that RIM never saw the iPhone and all it represented, as a threat. RIM is not alone. RIM is one of four companies that defined smartphones at the time. Not one of those companies is alive and well today.

1. MS. They are such a shadow of their former self, people are now starting to root for them as the underdog. WP7 has no connection to WM. They just might survive because they have tossed out old management and re-wrote the book on how they do phones. Their current book looks a lot like Apple's book. Good for MS, but they have moved from world power to developing nation.

2. Nokia. Need I say more. They had to sell their soul to MS. There are those at Nokia who still don't know they're dead.

3. Palm. Sold to the cellphone powerhouse... HP? Really?

4. RIM. Same song, different verse. A little bit louder, a little bit worse.

All of these companies have at lease one thing in common: they completely ignored, dismissed, and openly disbelieved the iPhone. They are all dead or dying!

The new superpowers of the mobile industry were nobody until they followed the iPhones lead. Samsung, HTC, by extension, Google, Motorola, none of these companies were smartphone powerhouses during the rein of RIM, MS, Nokia, and Palm. What separates the Old and New Testament of the smartphone saga, Apple's iPhone. Love it or hate it, the iPhone changed the world of communications. Those companies that refused to see that are forgotten relics of the past. There is little wonder fans and investors are abandoning the sinking ship of RIM.

RIM said a lot of foolish things and made a lot of foolish decisions in the face of the iPhone. They sowed the wind and are now reaping the whirlwind. They have earned the bad death that they are now facing. At best, their new QNX direction will get them into a position to be forever behind MS. HP and RIM will be battling for last place for some time to come.

If this post seems bitter and vindictive and ungracious to a company that is down, it is. Then again, RIM and their leaders are unrepentant and unforgiven. They were not just wrong; they were FOOLS! The same fools are still in charge, and will be until the bitter end. We are witnessing those bitter end-times right now.

[howarmat]

In all of this discussion about what when wrong, iPhone has not been spoken, as if taboo. Well, time to break the taboo. The problem is that RIM never saw the iPhone and all it represented, as a threat. RIM is not alone. RIM is one of four companies that defined smartphones at the time. Not one of those companies is alive and well today.

1. MS. They are such a shadow of their former self, people are now starting to root for them as the underdog. WP7 has no connection to WM. They just might survive because they have tossed out old management and re-wrote the book on how they do phones. Their current book looks a lot like Apple's book. Good for MS, but they have moved from world power to developing nation.

2. Nokia. Need I say more. They had to sell their soul to MS. There are those at Nokia who still don't know they're dead.

3. Palm. Sold to the cellphone powerhouse... HP? Really?

4. RIM. Same song, different verse. A little bit louder, a little bit worse.

All of these companies have at lease one thing in common: they completely ignored, dismissed, and openly disbelieved the iPhone. They are all dead or dying!

The new superpowers of the mobile industry were nobody until they followed the iPhones lead. Samsung, HTC, by extension, Google, Motorola, none of these companies were smartphone powerhouses during the rein of RIM, MS, Nokia, and Palm. What separates the Old and New Testament of the smartphone saga, Apple's iPhone. Love it or hate it, the iPhone changed the world of communications. Those companies that refused to see that are forgotten relics of the past. There is little wonder fans and investors are abandoning the sinking ship of RIM.

RIM said a lot of foolish things and made a lot of foolish decisions in the face of the iPhone. They sowed the wind and are now reaping the whirlwind. They have earned the bad death that they are now facing. At best, their new QNX direction will get them into a position to be forever behind MS. HP and RIM will be battling for last place for some time to come.

If this post seems bitter and vindictive and ungracious to a company that is down, it is. Then again, RIM and their leaders are unrepentant and unforgiven. They were not just wrong; they were FOOLS! The same fools are still in charge, and will be until the bitter end. We are witnessing those bitter end-times right now.

several good points. thanks

[_StephenBB81]

In all of this discussion about what when wrong, iPhone has not been spoken, as if taboo. Well, time to break the taboo. The problem is that RIM never saw the iPhone and all it represented, as a threat. RIM is not alone. RIM is one of four companies that defined smartphones at the time. Not one of those companies is alive and well today.

1. MS. They are such a shadow of their former self, people are now starting to root for them as the underdog. WP7 has no connection to WM. They just might survive because they have tossed out old management and re-wrote the book on how they do phones. Their current book looks a lot like Apple's book. Good for MS, but they have moved from world power to developing nation.

2. Nokia. Need I say more. They had to sell their soul to MS. There are those at Nokia who still don't know they're dead.

3. Palm. Sold to the cellphone powerhouse... HP? Really?

4. RIM. Same song, different verse. A little bit louder, a little bit worse.

All of these companies have at lease one thing in common: they completely ignored, dismissed, and openly disbelieved the iPhone. They are all dead or dying!

The new superpowers of the mobile industry were nobody until they followed the iPhones lead. Samsung, HTC, by extension, Google, Motorola, none of these companies were smartphone powerhouses during the rein of RIM, MS, Nokia, and Palm. What separates the Old and New Testament of the smartphone saga, Apple's iPhone. Love it or hate it, the iPhone changed the world of communications. Those companies that refused to see that are forgotten relics of the past. There is little wonder fans and investors are abandoning the sinking ship of RIM.

RIM said a lot of foolish things and made a lot of foolish decisions in the face of the iPhone. They sowed the wind and are now reaping the whirlwind. They have earned the bad death that they are now facing. At best, their new QNX direction will get them into a position to be forever behind MS. HP and RIM will be battling for last place for some time to come.

If this post seems bitter and vindictive and ungracious to a company that is down, it is. Then again, RIM and their leaders are unrepentant and unforgiven. They were not just wrong; they were FOOLS! The same fools are still in charge, and will be until the bitter end. We are witnessing those bitter end-times right now.

I don't overly disagree except that HTC very much was THE powerhouse, HTC formerly UTStarcom was probably one of the biggest producers of smartphones, I had a half dozen of the Windows Driven beauties manufactured by UTstarcome which became HTC.

far more could be argued, but I'll leave it at just that HTC, has always been a powerhouse

[dandbj13]

I don't overly disagree except that HTC very much was THE powerhouse, HTC formerly UTStarcom was probably one of the biggest producers of smartphones, I had a half dozen of the Windows Driven beauties manufactured by UTstarcome which became HTC.

far more could be argued, but I'll leave it at just that HTC, has always been a powerhouse

That is some deep geek knowledge you just threw down. I tip my hat.

[dandbj13]

I was going to toss in some links with quotes from each of the four horsemen of the phone-pocolyse, but I am tired and will be going to bed soon. They each had memorable reactions to the iPhone that landed them in their current position.

MS said something about a rounding error. Palm said that no computer company was going to walk into the smartphone industry and be successful. Nokia thought no one would ever want a capacitive touchscreen on a smartphone. And RIM accused the iPhone of being a fake and SJ of lying when he introduced the iPhone. RIM was convinced that a phone that could do all that the iPhone was supposed to be able to do with that kind of performance and battery life was just plain impossible.

In contrast, Google was in the process of making a BB ripoff. When they saw the iPhone, they scrapped everything and turned it into an iPhone ripoff. They saw what the others didn't. Seems like a good decision in retrospect. Google picked the right horse. Before, smartphone was spelled with two Bs: BlackBerry. Now, smartphone is spelled with two As: Apple and Android.

Good night, all.

[lnichols]

I think that the Chairmanships and CEO positions should be split. Whether they started the company or not, it is publicly owned now, and those two have way too much power and the company has made some major missteps.

[sleepngbear]

In all of this discussion about what when wrong, iPhone has not been spoken, as if taboo. Well, time to break the taboo. The problem is that RIM never saw the iPhone and all it represented, as a threat. RIM is not alone. RIM is one of four companies that defined smartphones at the time. Not onej of those companies is alive and well today.

1. MS. They are such a shadow of their former self, people are now starting to root for them as the underdog. WP7 has no connection to WM. They just might survive because they have tossed out old management and re-wrote the book on how they do phones. Their current book looks a lot like Apple's book. Good for MS, but they have moved from world power to developing nation.

2. Nokia. Need I say more. They had to sell their soul to MS. There are those at Nokia who still don't know they're dead.

3. Palm. Sold to the cellphone powerhouse... HP? Really?

4. RIM. Same song, different verse. A little bit louder, a little bit worse.

All of these companies have at lease one thing in common: they completely ignored, dismissed, and openly disbelieved the iPhone. They are all dead or dying!

The new superpowers of the mobile industry were nobody until they followed the iPhones lead. Samsung, HTC, by extension, Google, Motorola, none of these companies were smartphone powerhouses during the rein of RIM, MS, Nokia, and Palm. What separates the Old and New Testament of the smartphone saga, Apple's iPhone. Love it or hate it, the iPhone changed the world of communications. Those companies that refused to see that are forgotten relics of the past. There is little wonder fans and investors are abandoning the sinking ship of RIM.

RIM said a lot of foolish things and made a lot of foolish decisions in the face of the iPhone. They sowed the wind and are now reaping the whirlwind. They have earned the bad death that they are now facing. At best, their new QNX direction will get them into a position to be forever behind MS. HP and RIM will be battling for last place for some time to come.

If this post seems bitter and vindictive and ungracious to a company that is down, it is. Then again, RIM and their leaders are unrepentant and unforgiven. They were not just wrong; they were FOOLS! The same fools are still in charge, and will be until the bitter end. We are witnessing those bitter end-times right now.

#1 - No one has mentioned iPhone because it doesn't need to be mentioned. That the iPhone revolutionized smartphones is an obvious point that's accepted as fact.

#2 - RIM is not dead and it is not dying. Neither is Nokia, although I'd venture to say they're in worse shape than RIM at the moment. Palm made several strategic blunders long before iPhone hit the scene; iPhone was just the last nail in their coffin. And Microsoft shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as 'smartphone', at least not as far as WinMo is concerned; where they go with WinPhone remains to be seen.

In any kind of business, especially technology, there's always somebody who comes along with an innovation that turns the industry upside down. Several years ago that was RIM, and look how long it took anyone to dethrone them. Now it's Apple. Google might be giving them a fight with Android, but it's not an equal comparison given that Android is spread across multiple device manufacturers. RIM may not ever find itself back on top again; but I can guarantee you that it's only a matter of time before someone or something else comes along and knocks Apple down a few pegs.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[dandbj13]

...but I can guarantee you that it's only a matter of time before someone or something else comes along and knocks Apple down a few pegs.

If and when that happens, we will be able to easily identify the stupid fool things that Apple did to let that happen, just like we now can with RIM and the others.

Humility helps in these dark times. Companies that lead with their hubris, get very little sympathy when things go south.

[Economist101]

In any kind of business, especially technology, there's always somebody who comes along with an innovation that turns the industry upside down. Several years ago that was RIM, and look how long it took anyone to dethrone them. Now it's Apple. Google might be giving them a fight with Android, but it's not an equal comparison given that Android is spread across multiple device manufacturers. RIM may not ever find itself back on top again; but I can guarantee you that it's only a matter of time before someone or something else comes along and knocks Apple down a few pegs.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

The difference being that RIM's competition when it was on top was Palm and MS, neither of which turned out to be a formidable competitor in this market.

As for Apple, you need to define what you mean by being "knocked down." The reality is that Apple tends to be the most profitable vendor in the fields it enters, profitability that seems independent of market share. As an example, they're the most profitable computer vendor despite maintaining less than 10% marketshare, and they're currently taking more than 50% of the entire mobile phone industry's profits despite just 4% marketshare. So, if you mean they'll lose marketshare, that's possible, but their business isn't currently based on holding the marketshare lead and never has been.

[kb5zht]

#2 - RIM is not dead and it is not dying.

With the revenue declining and stock price in a free fall? Id say you better shove a mirror under rim's nose.

It is flatlining but the shareholders are charging the shock paddles as we speak.

And if Lazaridis and Ballsillie arent rigor mortis i dont know what is...

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[Pete6#WP]

With the revenue declining and stock price in a free fall? Id say you better shove a mirror under rim's nose.

It is flatlining but the shareholders are charging the shock paddles as we speak.

And if Lazaridis and Ballsillie arent rigor mortis i dont know what is...

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

I compeletly agree. RIM should put both Lazaridis and Ballsillie out to pasture and bring Kevin, yes, OUR Kevin in to replace them both.

[sleepngbear]

The difference being that RIM's competition when it was on top was Palm and MS, neither of which turned out to be a formidable competitor in this market.

As for Apple, you need to define what you mean by being "knocked down." The reality is that Apple tends to be the most profitable vendor in the fields it enters, profitability that seems independent of market share. As an example, they're the most profitable computer vendor despite maintaining less than 10% marketshare, and they're currently taking more than 50% of the entire mobile phone industry's profits despite just 4% marketshare. So, if you mean they'll lose marketshare, that's possible, but their business isn't currently based on holding the marketshare lead and never has been.

Definitely agree with your profitability statement (although the same can be said for RIM - they are still profitable), but we all know it hasn't always been so for Apple. What I mean by 'knocked down' is that it's inevitable that someone other than Apple is going to come out with a new revolution that will render iOS and all the devices that run it less significant. It won't likely be soon, and Apple will surely take measures to protect its position as best as it can, so its fall probably won't be as harsh as RIM's has been. But nothing lasts forever. Heck, if Google had come up with something more than another flavor of what iPhone already does, it might have already happened.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[Darlaten]

I compeletly agree. RIM should put both Lazaridis and Ballsillie out to pasture and bring Kevin, yes, OUR Kevin in to replace them both.

Before we crucify all CEO's and management as being out of touch with reality, arrogant, and pompous, you should take a look at what the CEO from Zinio Digital Magazines wrote here Press Releases | Corporate | Zinio

For those of you who dont want to read their press release, I'll sum up what happened. Zinios web services were disrupted for less than a week which prevented subscribes from being able to access their digital magazines.

The CEO then wrote a lengthy apology to its consumers. And in a brutally honest statement, the CEO said, "As the CEO, I hold us to the highest of standards. We failed you. And for that, I deeply apologize" (para. 2).

That is an example of a CEO who engenders respect and appreciation from its consumers, its investors, and its employees. It's an example of class. It's an example that RIM's CEO's should learn.

[Charlieo132]

Before we crucify all CEO's and management as being out of touch with reality, arrogant, and pompous, you should take a look at what the CEO from Zinio Digital Magazines wrote here Press Releases | Corporate | Zinio

For those of you who dont want to read their press release, I'll sum up what happened. Zinios web services were disrupted for less than a week which prevented subscribes from being able to access their digital magazines.

The CEO then wrote a lengthy apology to its consumers. And in a brutally honest statement, the CEO said, "As the CEO, I hold us to the highest of standards. We failed you. And for that, I deeply apologize" (para. 2).

That is an example of a CEO who engenders respect and appreciation from its consumers, its investors, and its employees. It's an example of class. It's an example that RIM's CEO's should learn.

If RIM management would put their egos in check and muster up the courage to do this, they would not be able to keep their phones in stock in the U.S. The phones would be flying off the shelf as people would give them another shot shince they admitted the faults of the company and making a pact that the customer is #1 to them.

[kevinnugent]

Here's an article that gives you a little insight into RIM. Australia is a market of 23 million people who per capita are the fastest and most voracious consumers of technology. We are a developed nation, who was today scored as the Best Place to live in all the OECD nations.

The article posted today lists the ups and downs of the three most prominent mobile phone OS's here. RIM don't get a mention.
IDC - Press Release - prAU22914211

[_StephenBB81]

Here's an article that gives you a little insight into RIM. Australia is a market of 23 million people who per capita are the fastest and most voracious consumers of technology. We are a developed nation, who was today scored as the Best Place to live in all the OECD nations.

The article posted today lists the ups and downs of the three most prominent mobile phone OS's here. RIM don't get a mention.
IDC - Press Release - prAU22914211

I question if IDC classified Blackberry's as Feature phones? as RIM has a reasonable presence in Austraila

THOUGH if you look at this page
Mobile Browser Market Share, Australia, May 2011

it says RIM's mobile browser has 1.59% market share, and Opera Mobile Browser has 2.7% it is safe to say that Opera browser is at least 50% being used by Blackberry owners. so lets round RIM's presence to 3% of the browser market, ( If Ipod was removed you'd be weighting in slightly more)
It is also safe to say Anyone buying an iPhone WOULD be using the Internet, not the case with a Nokia, or a Blackberry, as internet use is not a major factor when purchasing a Blackberry or Nokia, but it is when purchasing a near 4" slab of smartphone.

but even with these numbers it does tell a tale that RIM most likely holds less than 10% of the subscription based market share in Australia, which is a very sad State for RIM

[kevinnugent]

An interesting point to note, though, is that Blackberry users in Australia do not use Opera. Not if they can help it anyway. Any data that is used by the Blackberry user in Australia must be channeled through the default browser otherwise it doesn't count in the cap/plan and so they are charged extra. That's the way it is with my telco (Optus - second biggest in the country with around 4m users). Strange, but true.

[_StephenBB81]

An interesting point to note, though, is that Blackberry users in Australia do not use Opera. Not if they can help it anyway. Any data that is used by the Blackberry user in Australia must be channeled through the default browser otherwise it doesn't count in the cap/plan and so they are charged extra. That's the way it is with my telco (Optus - second biggest in the country with around 4m users). Strange, but true.

Does your teleco charge for use of Wifi? as I would suspect a good number of users use their browsers on Wifi Only, due to Australia being like Canada and having high data costs.

the fact that 13% traffic was just iPods, talks to the amount of Wifi Usage.

[kevinnugent]

No. Wifi use through devices is free. Data costs here are exorbitant if you don't lock them down in a plan. For example, I get 3gb of included data in my $79 a month plan. (Also includes unlimited texts and about $800 in calls) But go over the 3GB and you're in a world of pain. I think $2 per MB pain.

[_StephenBB81]

No. Wifi use through devices is free. Data costs here are exorbitant if you don't lock them down in a plan. For example, I get 3gb of included data in my $79 a month plan. (Also includes unlimited texts and about $800 in calls) But go over the 3GB and you're in a world of pain. I think $2 per MB pain.

I have recently discovered how many Blackberry users here in Canada have 50MB dataplans or "BBM / Social networking" plans that don't allow data usage unless pay per use. so they live on Wifi at home and work.
I'd expect many in Australia to be the same with your very high data costs, and the price consciences phone buyer is probably still sitting on a 18 month - 2 year old device and are not being included in the sales market share that seems to be very much the numbers being thrown around over the usage market share since sales market share is far easier to track

[kevinnugent]

Yeah, the newer plans here for the Blackberry (they are separated from the other smartphone plans) give you so much for calls, unlimited texts and email and then 1GB of data for "browsing etc". As you say, wifi is free and is used pretty extensively here now. Over the past year or so there are a lot more wifi hotspots around - with McDonalds and Starbucks leading the charge.