01-31-14 09:43 PM
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  1. moeah's Avatar
    Ned Flanders is that you?

    Sorry couldn't help myself and I want to subscribe to this one.
    I can see the OP grining away at how this thread is turning out.

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    11-14-08 12:30 AM
  2. cereal killer's Avatar
    thank you for that Jenay. That was fantastic. I commend you on confronting him. *CK bows*

    You want to know what I find most disturbing. He says these things with conviction.

    I'm glad this thread was started because it has done it's job and done it's job well. Let us not fool ourselves into thinking this is uncommon "behavior". It's very prevalent in this society we live in. There are a lot of these Christian loons out there. As I have seen, some have even visited this thread. There are others out there as well.

    I have in my possesion a very good quote that I would like to share. When I first read Balloons first post I was like "Yeah this guy has it right" I can guarantee he's probobly out there reading this with a great big smile. I'll carry the torch for now.

    with that said I give you this:

    Christianity, along with all other theistic belief systems, is the fraud of the age. It serves to detach the species from the natural world, and likewise, each other. It supports blind submission to authority. It reduces human responsibility to the effect that "God" controls everything, and in turn awful crimes can be justified in the name of Divine Pursuit. And most importantly, it empowers those who know the truth but use the myth to manipulate and control societies. The religious myth is the most powerful device ever created, and serves as the psychological soil upon which other myths can flourish
    Last edited by cereal killer; 11-14-08 at 12:53 AM.
    11-14-08 12:45 AM
  3. luvitlo's Avatar
    So you're telling us that your wife is a good holy godly whatever because she dresses for nuclear winter 24/7? So the halter top I wore yesterday must make me a real wh*re.

    I've stayed out ofthis thread, but having read all your bs all over this forum, I can't keep my mouth shut on this one.

    You come off as one of the most self-righteous, holier than thou, pig-headed men I've ever come across. Between all your posts in this thread and your stupid world of warcraft threads, and your blatant disregard for punctuation and the english language in general, its enough to make me sick.

    Take your third world views and keep them to yourself. Done.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

    Third world views???? Now I am not aware of third world religion, but I do read my Bible and though I can't quote scripture like my pastor or my father, whom happens to be a minister in our church as well, I do know that Jesus said for his people to testify, spread the gospel, and witness to the multitude. My wife dresses like she dresses because it says a woman is not to wear anything that pertainith to a man and to dress modest which means cover your rear up. I guess you would also find it weird that I never wear shorts only long jeans pulled up around my waist and secured with a belt. Now I have posted my part, explained my religious views, and witnessed as Jesus said for His people to do. If anyone else would like further information on the Truth and Gospel of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, PM me if I don't know the answer I'll ask my father or Pastor so I don't mislead anyone into H3LL instead of Heaven. Good Day and Final Post.
    P.S. as for the WoW post if it bothers you that I protest a highly addictive video game, and you don't like my SMS style post in that thread then don't read them. they are getting too off topic anyway, I just don't know how to close a thread.
    11-14-08 08:19 AM
  4. squiddaddy's Avatar
    Third world views???? Now I am not aware of third world religion, but I do read my Bible and though I can't quote scripture like my pastor or my father, whom happens to be a minister in our church as well, I do know that Jesus said for his people to testify, spread the gospel, and witness to the multitude. My wife dresses like she dresses because it says a woman is not to wear anything that pertainith to a man and to dress modest which means cover your rear up. I guess you would also find it weird that I never wear shorts only long jeans pulled up around my waist and secured with a belt. Now I have posted my part, explained my religious views, and witnessed as Jesus said for His people to do. If anyone else would like further information on the Truth and Gospel of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, PM me if I don't know the answer I'll ask my father or Pastor so I don't mislead anyone into H3LL instead of Heaven. Good Day and Final Post.
    P.S. as for the WoW post if it bothers you that I protest a highly addictive video game, and you don't like my SMS style post in that thread then don't read them. they are getting too off topic anyway, I just don't know how to close a thread.

    Amen...... So sayeth the Luvi.

    Jenny, YOU ROCK!!!!!
    11-14-08 09:37 AM
  5. cereal killer's Avatar
    Luvitlo I encourage you to help me out here. What you wrote really scared me. I don't wish to be in helll. Seriously, the thought of fire, heat and being whipped by a horned man is not my idea of the afterlife I want to spend.
    From what I have heard Satan is a real a-hole. I can't look at snakes anymore without wondering if they will start talking to me and tempting me to eat bad apples. I know that's why I smoke weed. That SOB grows some good stuff, bags it up and sells it to unsuspecting people like me. Heven goes as far as putting up stores disguised as "tobacco shops" its all making sense to me now.

    I just threw my girlfriend and tv out on the street. She wears too much stuff that pertainith to man and that Girls Gone Wild commercial put me over the top (yes I will burn my collection as well)

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-14-08 10:10 AM
  6. prometheus's Avatar
    I have an observation and a question..

    It seems the more .... what should I call it ....hmmm?? The more "religious" or "evangelical" a person is the more their vocabulary, speech patterns, AND expressions change.

    This could generally be considered a good think. Someone may have a tendency to use foul language and cuss a lot and may not "fit in" in a corporate world or professional office. I think the whole idea of attaching stigma to certain "words" is silly - I digress. Sorry, I'm not talking about a converted person cleaning up a potty mouth.

    I mean evangelical people use "thee" and "thou" and "pertaineth" - now I know a primary reason for this is that a very common bible used among evangelicals today is the King James Version - translated in 1611. That translation uses archaic language. But, there are a million other translations out there in modern English.

    What I really find interesting is when Jesus is depicted in film and he talks that way. What did he speak, Hebrew? Greek? I dunno, but sure wasn't 17th century English.

    My observation and question is: they talk different, why?

    One possible reason is: ignorance. Perhaps they assume that's how Jesus and his apostles spoke and want to mimic him

    Another possible reason: a desire to impress others with how... I dunno how to say this... with how... holy ... righteous... reverent, they are. See what I mean - it's hard to put your finger on it.

    We all use different speech patterns for different occasions. For example: if you're very mad and having an argument and yelling, you may use profanity and short simple sentences. If you're talking to an infant and trying to console them, you may use "baby talk" and talk very softly and use phases like, "awww did you get a boo-boo? Let's see if a kissy makes it all better." As opposed to talking with your buddy at the bar that just knocked his knee into something. You say, "hey dude, you alright? - need a beer?".

    For some reason when evangelical folks start talking about their faith they get flowery in their speech and refer to females oddly and sexual organs in very scientific terms. Instead of simply referring to Jesus as "Jesus" they say, "the lord" "my lord, "the Christ." They speak in lofty terms of their close personal relationship with Jesus, yet rarely refer to him casually. It always takes on an air of dignity and reverence. Respect for Jesus is fine and admirable - but it's creepy how the persona changes. And when the personal name of Jesus is used - even New Yorkers revert to some sort of Southern accent and draw out the "e" and add a syllable to make it "Jee-uh-sus".

    Why? It really bolsters the claim of Baloon and others that evangelicals are brainwashed. It reminds me of the stereotype of a hypnotized person. When mimicking a hypnotized person, we see them as: Their eyes get transfixed on something in the near distance, their faces goes slack, they speak very monotone and slow and say, "yes master" with their arms flat, outstretched before them. When someone wants to mimic an evangelical they would put their hands palms up, above their heads and either look down reverently to the floor or raise their eyes up and gaze at the ceiling. Then talk really LOUD and say something nonsensical like, "oh Bless-ed lord Jee-uh-sus - shine thine glory unto thee."

    When someone slips into a speech pattern that is different from their daily, normal, conversational speech pattern that shows that this alter ego is betraying their true self. It demonstrates the points made here in this thread that the church's desire is not to reverence to God and build personal faith in individuals and teach and inform others. But, it is to control their thinking and their minds and every time we observe someone slip into the stereotype of "oh blesses lord shine thine glory unto thee and deliver these homo-sex-oo-alls from the fiery pits of eternal flames thee, thou, unto, pertaineth" it just PROVES the point of control being exerted and brains being washed. Religion creates an alter ego in its victim.

    However, it must be noted that Jesus ALWAYS spoke like his lines are being read from a fortune cookie. At least he was consistent.
    11-14-08 11:52 AM
  7. cereal killer's Avatar
    Blessed are thou who are all f'd up. Amen

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    11-14-08 01:11 PM
  8. jenaywins's Avatar
    Blessed are thou who are all f'd up. Amen

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Hehehehe...

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-14-08 01:16 PM
  9. prometheus's Avatar
    Blessed are thou who are all f'd up. Amen

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    jenay said it prefect.... hehehehe
    11-14-08 01:35 PM
  10. cereal killer's Avatar
    I like Jenay. She stuck up for herself. I really like that.

    Anyhow, so I'm a little baked right now and I don't know why i'm sitting here but I am. but not for long the evil and sinners of the world await my arrival. Weed, women and fun. What a night it will be.

    So i'm calling you out golfnut. i know your there lurking and reading. I think it's time you stepped up to the plate. But lets ease you into it shall we?

    I have but one question for you. Just one. I think this very probing question will let us get a deep glimpse into your biblical world. This one question will either make you or break you. Your silence will not do neither *inhale*..............*exhale* because I know your here.

    So answer me this one question. It's very simple. You more than likely know the answer. even I do. Goodnight Jenay if your still there sleep tight and cover up so that you are not pertainathing to any man.

    Here you go golfnut. Enough of my ramblings;

    Why did god put the tree of knowledge in Eden?
    11-14-08 08:09 PM
  11. jenaywins's Avatar
    I like Jenay. She stuck up for herself. I really like that.

    Anyhow, so I'm a little baked right now and I don't know why i'm sitting here but I am. but not for long the evil and sinners of the world await my arrival. Weed, women and fun. What a night it will be.

    So i'm calling you out golfnut. i know your there lurking and reading. I think it's time you stepped up to the plate. But lets ease you into it shall we?

    I have but one question for you. Just one. I think this very probing question will let us get a deep glimpse into your biblical world. This one question will either make you or break you. Your silence will not do neither *inhale*..............*exhale* because I know your here.

    So answer me this one question. It's very simple. You more than likely know the answer. even I do. Goodnight Jenay if your still there sleep tight and cover up so that you are not pertainathing to any man.

    Here you go golfnut. Enough of my ramblings;

    Why did god put the tree of knowledge in Eden?
    Thanks cereal.

    Ill be sleeping tight after a few more games of beer pong - and I have on a tank top. Bad girl.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-14-08 09:39 PM
  12. cain0013's Avatar
    Thanks cereal.

    Ill be sleeping tight after a few more games of beer pong - and I have on a tank top. Bad girl.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    I can't believe you ran luvitlo off. You rock!! That guy was such a sexist ****. I'm away for a couple of days and I miss all the good stuff. .

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-14-08 10:09 PM
  13. prometheus's Avatar
    Killer I know what youre gonna say, so, Ill say it first: Im just twisting words to make convenient explanations. Well, Ill hold the same thing for you youre taking passages out of context and attempting to create contradictions. Im sure if you have a tape recorded running on yourself at the end of the day it could be edited and a sentence picked out here and there to make you come off as a total blabbering fool. Well, thats what happens when you dance around and pick out a sentence here and a sentence there from the bible it looks confusing and contradictory. In order to dispel arguments regarding contradictions it is necessary for me to demonstrate the context of the verses. I always resist quoting scriptures cause it sounds preachy. Im not trying to convert here Im just making a defense of the bible as accurate and consistent, trustworthy literature. I happen to believe its inspired of God, but I will NEVER revert to the argument that you just have to believe

    Someone, somewhere in this thread accused me of blind faith. Come on thats crazy. Does anyone really think after reading my posts that I am blind and not basing my belief on information Ive gathered? I would never ask someone to place in the bible just because without offering some substance for that faith.

    Here we go.

    John 8:14 Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true.
    John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
    Go back one verse to John 8:13, the Pharisees (pains in the neck) said Jesus was full of it. They said, you testify about yourself, we cant depend on your testimony then Jesus replied (in vs 14) Even if I testify about myself, you can depend on my testimony. You have to keep reading in John 8. Go on to verse 17 -18, In your law it is written the testimony of 2 men is true I testify about myself and my father testifies about me. He was talking to those familiar with the Mosaic law which stated that a legal matter could only be established by 2 witnesses. Now we have the whole context of that verse.

    Go to John 5:31 (you quoted) now, continue to vs 32: There is another that bears witness of me and I know what he testifies is true (referring to God). So, we see a consistent message here. Jesus in both passages says that there are 2 witnesses to his position as Gods son his own mouth and God.

    To paraphrase both verses and dovetail them together Jesus is saying, Yes, I agree with you if I say that I am Gods son then its just me saying it and I havent made a strong argument. But, God is also saying it and now there are 2 witnesses to this. So, its been legally established according to the Mosaic law. However, Im not lying so even if it was just me saying it you can depend on my word.

    James 1:13 Let no man say . . . I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."
    Genesis 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham.
    Youre quoting from the King James Version. It is a very poor translation of that verse. Particularly in the use of the word tempt. This is how that verse reads in other translations:

    New International Version God tested Abraham
    New American Standard God tested Abraham
    American Standard version God did prove Abraham
    Bible in Basic English God put Abraham to the test
    Darby Bible God Tried Abraham
    New World Translation God put Abraham to the test
    English Revised God did prove Abraham
    World English God tested Abraham

    Again, read the context. The next vs, James 1:14 states, but anyone is tempted to do evil when he is allured by his own desire and enticed by a bait. Other translations read, Everyones own desire tempts him (Beck) [one is] tempted when he is carried away by his own lust (New Authorized Standard).

    Was Abraham tested or tempted? For it to be a temptation it wouldnt have to be a desire to do something that he really wanted that was inherently wrong. Again, read the context, the next verse Genesis 22:2 says, Offer up your son who you love very much. What he was being tested with was whether or not he would sacrifice his son by killing him. It was a test not a temptation. What was the result of the test? He was about to go thru with it when God said, stop, you proved youre obedient. Abraham demonstrated faith in the resurrection and Gods power to bring his son back to life.

    this is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

    But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins. - Matthew 1:18-21

    So, did the angel announce the pregnancy to Mary after she had become engaged to Joseph, or was Mary already pregnant before she met Joseph, and the angel visited Joseph to stop him divorcing herit cant be both ways.
    Im not following you here sorry, I just fail to see any contradiction in this verse. I think youre reading the phrase came together as meaning before they met the verse is saying before they did the nasty before they bumped uglies before they did the horizontal polka. You may also not be aware that in Jewish society of that day an engaged couple was viewed as married by the Jews. She would have killed if she was proven to have had sex with someone other that Joseph while engaged. He wanted nothing to do with her cause he thought she was screwing around, but didnt want her to die for it. So, he was gonna divorce her so it would appear that he knocked her up and then left her. But the angel told him not to and explained that she was pregnant by Holy Spirit and not some other guy. And you think I have faith imagine that conversation between the angel and Joseph. Are you fing with me? Shes pregnant and it was God? Do I look like an ***** to you? How much is she paying you to give me that line? If I find out it was you buddy

    Sorry if thats blasphemy to anyone, but I just love imaging that conversation. Or the conversation between Mary and Joseph. You see honey, Im pregnant. But, honestly Im a virgin. You see, there was this angel. And then Joseph like, thats the best excuse you could think of, God?? Seriously? You couldve said you got drunk or something, but God? Come on.

    and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. - Matthew 1:16

    Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli - Luke 3:23
    If you actually read all of the 1st chapter of Matthew and the 3rd chapter of Luke, youll have an incredibly easy (and dare I say further proof that Jesus was real?) explanation. Look closer Matthew fast forwards a few generation starting off at Matthew 1:1 with Jesus Christ, son of David, son of Abraham.. Then in verse 2 goes back to Abe and traces all of the fathers in between Abraham and David. The key verse is Matthew 1:6 David became father to Solomon. Now, flip over to Luke 3:23-38. Luke was a hard core historian and he went all the way back to Adam and traced every single ancestor. Fast forward to Luke 3:34 where we see good ol Abraham. Now, follow the thread to Luke 3:31 (it goes backwards, look it up, and youll see what I mean) look closely at who is listed as Davids son Nathan. Huh? What? I thought Solomon was the son of David according to Matthew 1:16? Thats the point again context, context, context.

    The difference in nearly all the names in Lukes genealogy of Jesus as compared with Matthews is quickly resolved in the fact that Luke traced the line through Davids son Nathan, instead of Solomon as did Matthew. (Lu 3:31; Mt 1:6, 7) Luke followed the ancestry of Mary - showing Jesus natural descent from David, while Matthew shows Jesus legal right to the throne of David by descent from Solomon through Joseph, who was legally Jesus father. Both Matthew and Luke signify that Joseph was not Jesus actual father but only his adoptive father, giving him legal right. Matthew departs from the style used throughout his genealogy when he comes to Jesus, saying: Jacob became father to Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ. (Mt 1:16) Notice that he does not say Joseph became father to Jesus but that he was the husband of Mary, of whom Jesus was born. Luke states it even more clearly when, after showing earlier that Jesus was actually the Son of God by Mary (Lu 1:32-35), he says: Jesus . . . being the son, as the opinion was, of Joseph, son of Heli.Lu 3:23.

    Why did I say this was further proof that Jesus was real? How many do you know that have documented every single ancestor on their mother AND fathers side for 28 generation?


    and he was in the desert forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him. After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. - Mark 1:13-14

    After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized. (This was before John was put in prison.) - John 3:22-24

    Huh Whut? and to think the formation of the ministry is something considered very important to Christiansthe Bible cant even decide when it happened.
    Im just not seeing the contradiction here What is your point? I think youre saying that in John 3:22 the mention of Jesus spending time in the Judean countryside with his disciples constitutes the start of his preaching campaign and that happened BEFORE John was imprisoned. And that conflicts with Mark saying AFTER John was imprisoned Jesus went into Galilee and started preaching.

    Im a little confused because the 2 events are not at all the same event. One discusses him in the Judean countryside with some disciples. The other is in Galilee by the way thats about 50 miles apart.

    Im sorry I do just not understand what contradiction is being exposed here.

    A full reading of all of the verses surrounding the ones you quoted helps place events in chronological order to a few events his ministry:

    1 John born
    2 Jesus born
    3 John starts preaching
    4 Jesus is baptized by John
    5 Jesus tempted in wilderness and preaches in Judea
    6 Jesus starts gathering disciples
    7 John arrested
    8 Jesus went into Galilee and preached
    9 Sermon on the Mount

    Also see Matthew 3:12 Now when he heard that John had been arrested, he withdrew into Galilee.

    Alex gospel means truth and for something to be true it cant have contradictions.
    Well said.
    11-14-08 10:15 PM
  14. prometheus's Avatar
    I can't believe you ran luvitlo off. You rock!! That guy was such a sexist ****. I'm away for a couple of days and I miss all the good stuff. .

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    yeah, that was pretty funny. I wish we could post sound clips here. I would've got a recording of my dog scampering off, whining, with his tail between his legs.
    11-14-08 10:17 PM
  15. prometheus's Avatar
    - and I have on a tank top. Bad girl.
    you brazen, shameless tramp -- god bless ya'
    11-14-08 10:18 PM
  16. cain0013's Avatar
    I'm not making fun. I'm just saying you gotta find humor in that picture. To not find humor in that would be a humorless world. If a mormon were sitting right in front of me I'd chuckle and say, "you gotta be embarrased by this." There are MANY things that I have been embarrassed about from my congregation / family / (fill in the blank).

    not making fun - good natured teasing. If anyone out there was offended, sorry - not my intent.

    I was chuckling at Squid's comments. the "blasphemy" of him being OK with burning in hades and his mormon friends "saving" him by lending him their underwear - come on that's funny. I know NOTHING about this practice and the doctrines of that church. i'm just giggling at the term "sacred undies."

    Cain - you should know a liitle about me by now that I respect sacred things and people's opinions. please understand the spirit in which this was offered - good natured teasing. Weren't you the one referencing ployester blends earlier? that cracked me up also.
    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

    I guess I lost my sense of humour. I decided to steer clear of this thread for a couple of days because I was getting a little testy. But I'm back and so is my sense of humour. The polyester blend reference is a classic. I couldn't leave that out and I just threw the pork thing in for good measure.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-14-08 10:20 PM
  17. prometheus's Avatar
    Why did god put the tree of knowledge in Eden?
    ummmm... he wanted shade.
    11-14-08 10:20 PM
  18. cain0013's Avatar
    yeah, that was pretty funny. I wish we could post sound clips here. I would've got a recording of my dog scampering off, whining, with his tail between his legs.
    Lol. That would be great!

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-14-08 10:22 PM
  19. jenaywins's Avatar
    I can't believe you ran luvitlo off. You rock!! That guy was such a sexist ****. I'm away for a couple of days and I miss all the good stuff. .

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Eh. I tried to stay out of it, but I just got sick of his sh*t.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-14-08 10:22 PM
  20. jenaywins's Avatar
    you brazen, shameless tramp -- god bless ya'
    Hey - I live in AZ for a reason!!

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-14-08 10:25 PM
  21. cereal killer's Avatar
    Oh Lord jesus Christ I give thanks to thee for bestowing the presence of Cain and Jenay upon us once again. May God bless them both and deliver them from evil. Amen.

    Yeah Cain that verbal lashing Jenay gave luvitlo was classic. She went off on him hahahaah. Talk about a serious tongue lashing. I haven't seen anything like that in a long time. It was awesome. I like rereading it sometimes.

    Alex context is a poor arguement aka excuse : ) so let's make it simple and easy to follow for everyone.

    I want you to answer the tree question Alex. Why was it put there?


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    Last edited by cereal killer; 11-15-08 at 12:42 AM.
    11-15-08 12:28 AM
  22. prometheus's Avatar
    Why was the tree put there? How the f should I know?

    Do you seriously want an answer? Or just being a smartass?

    Because I think you're barking up the wrong tree asking me.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-15-08 01:26 AM
  23. prometheus's Avatar
    Killer - don't weezle out of that. I know it was a ridiculously looooong post. But, it's good solid arguments. I'm not JUST relying on "read the context".

    How about this - my abraham test / temp logic was lame - I'll give you that one. But, you gotta give me at least the Jesus lineage thing with matthew tracing it thru solomon and luke going thru nathan you know that was slick.

    And come on your joseph finding out mary was prego & and jesus starting his ministry thing weren't even contradictions.

    I thought you were bringin your A game brotha'

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-15-08 01:35 AM
  24. cereal killer's Avatar
    Don't make me come over there Alex.

    A game? Ok don't say you weren't warned : )

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-15-08 11:30 AM
  25. gregerator's Avatar
    As for the tree. My personal belief, and I think alex will be on board with this, is that the tree *had* to be in the garden for the existence of choice. The only thing Adam *shouldnt* do is eat of the tree. There wasn't any other law/rule whatever. Without the tree Adam would not have had the choice of god's way of his own way. That's what it has always come Down to. Adam could do what God asked or sdam could do what adam wanted to. It's only love if you choose it other wise it's coercion. You *have* to love me, there is no other choice. God doesn't work that way. And ever since Adam chose his own way God has been trying to reconcile man back to Himself. A solid book on this is Rob Bell's Jesus Wants to Save Christians. God offers man choice. We choose God or not. It's up to us. While I celebrate Christmas on Dec 25th I completely understand respect and admire Alex for not doing so. In Romans 14 we are given the *choice* to hold somedays special and others not and asked not to hold it against others whatever they choose. I like Halloween. Not very popular among right wing conservative Christians. But I don't dess up to keep evil spirits away. I do it cause I can and it's fun and silly. I was king Arthur from Monty Python's Holy Grail this year. Some believer's don't eat certain foods. Some don't watch TV. We all get to choose. What God asks of us is to have a relationship with Him. To put His way first. And His way is pinpointed in Jesus. Love God, Love Others. I'd you read Matthew, or the other accounts, you'll see that what Jesus did was have compassion. Compassion for the common people. And he had distaste for the Religious Right (Pharisees and Saduccees). They had focused on works, making sure the tithe is right. Wearing the right clothes. Fasting enough. Etc. One of the most beautiful pictures of this in the gospels (which, by the way, gospel actually means "good news") is when two men are in the temple courts. One a Pharisee the other a tax collector or "sinner". (Luke 18:9-14) The Pharisee stands up showing no reverence for his God and proclaims, God, thank You that I am not like this other man, a sinner. The tax collector stands at a distance and will not even look up toward heaven but beats his chest (a custom of 1st century life stating unworthiness) and says, God gave mercy on me, a sinner. It's not about *doing* right. We haven't done that very well, ever. It's about *being* right. Being in a right relationship with God. The Jews of the old testament were told to use an unblemished lamb's blood on the doorpost to signify to God that they were of Him. This was just before the exodus. The first Passover. Pasover is the celebration of God saving the first born of the Jews during the plague of the first born. Isn't it interesting then that thousands of years later God's firstborn known as the Lamb of God is killed, His blood splattered on wood posts so that other's might be reconciled to God. No works involved. The final sacrifice. It's our choice. We can choose to accept God's sacrifice for reconciliation or not. The tree *had* to be there so Adam and Eve could choose God's way or their own. We often choose our own.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-15-08 12:25 PM
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