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  1. luvitlo's Avatar
    Balloon Knot and Cerial Killer PM me. I got a testamony you need to hear man. I'm not supposed to be living right now. My trake doctor introduces me to his students as "The man we could not kill." realisticly by all medical science I was supposed to be dead in 6 different situations in the past 3 years. Yes Prayer brought me threw the doctors even say They have no clue as to how or why I'm alive. It's an interesting story if you have time. But I can't quote any scriptures just Know what God has done for me when Medical doctors threw their hands up and said "He WILL be dead in 24 HOURS there is nothing more WE can do" They called in all my family and my family prayed all night 3 years later 30 surgeries all LIFE Threatening and Guess what I'm Still Here.
    Last edited by luvitlo; 11-13-08 at 12:26 AM.
    11-13-08 12:21 AM
  2. golfnut's Avatar
    Balloon Knot and Cerial Killer PM me. I got a testamony you need to hear man. I'm not supposed to be living right now. My trake doctor introduces me to his students as "The man we could not kill." realisticly by all medical science I was supposed to be dead in 6 different situations in the past 3 years. Yes Prayer brought me threw the doctors even say They have no clue as to how or why I'm alive. It's an interesting story if you have time. But I can't quote any scriptures just Know what God has done for me when Medical doctors threw their hands up and said "He WILL be dead in 24 HOURS there is nothing more WE can do" They called in all my family and my family prayed all night 3 years later 30 surgeries all LIFE Threatening and Guess what I'm Still Here.
    I'm not Ballon or CK but I am happy you were able to pull through all those life threatening situations, Luvitlo. God really does listen and you're living proof. Your story brings to light the one thing that hasn't been touched on. The unexplainable healings that medicine can't take credit for. Thank God for hearing your family's prayers.
    11-13-08 12:35 AM
  3. prometheus's Avatar
    Balloon Knot and Cerial Killer PM me. I got a testamony you need to hear man. I'm not supposed to be living right now. My trake doctor introduces me to his students as "The man we could not kill." realisticly by all medical science I was supposed to be dead in 6 different situations in the past 3 years. Yes Prayer brought me threw the doctors even say They have no clue as to how or why I'm alive. It's an interesting story if you have time. But I can't quote any scriptures just Know what God has done for me when Medical doctors threw their hands up and said "He WILL be dead in 24 HOURS there is nothing more WE can do" They called in all my family and my family prayed all night 3 years later 30 surgeries all LIFE Threatening and Guess what I'm Still Here.
    I'm very happy for you and I'm sure the strength and encouragement from your family has been a tremendous source of comfort and strength thru your battles. I wish you continued strength and recovery!
    11-13-08 12:48 AM
  4. luvitlo's Avatar
    I'm not Ballon or CK but I am happy you were able to pull through all those life threatening situations, Luvitlo. God really does listen and you're living proof. Your story brings to light the one thing that hasn't been touched on. The unexplainable healings that medicine can't take credit for. Thank God for hearing your family's prayers.
    The weird thing is I am not one to take a spot light, but my pastor tells everyone about me and he even says he is not sure he could face everything I been threw in the last 3 years and never blame God but I don't God didn't make me speed down that road I did it cause I liked the feel of the wind in my hair and hearin that bike sound off. Now I'm still not done I need more surgery. I know God will heal me and once I can talk again and get this little intestinal problem fixed I will testify to every congregation I meet God is the doctor God is the miricle maker and God is good if we believe and have faith.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Last edited by luvitlo; 11-13-08 at 12:57 AM.
    11-13-08 12:52 AM
  5. cereal killer's Avatar
    Luvitlo. Great story and I'm very happy you are well once again. There is something to be said about prayer no doubt.

    Please understand I am not questioning the presense of a "creator" or "God". I have even eluded to this in one of my posts. Its there.

    I am only bringing into question Christianity.

    Alex no worries about our discussion. I admire your tenacity and admire how well read you are on the subject. I must admit the Christmas thing really has thrown me off : )

    I would really like to hear why you don't do Christmas. That was a very interesting comment that I would truly like to hear you explain a little more in depth.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-13-08 01:01 AM
  6. luvitlo's Avatar
    I must of missed that post I don't believe in Christmas either for one Jesus wasn't born in December he was born during tax season read the Bible it's there it also has something about small "g" gods and people offering to an evergreen tree besides all serious Christians know better than to celebrate holidays because they were all adopted by the early church in an atempt to draw pagans into the Christian belief I know this for a fact because I was once a Wiccan Priest but I was saved and now am full Christian. My wife and I along with our church do not wear wedding rings nor did we exchange rings in our wedding the wedding band is pagan as well

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-13-08 01:38 AM
  7. prometheus's Avatar
    Im not gonna quote Killers previous post cause my reply is not in the same order of details and doesnt cover all of his points. Im just taking up the issues of December 25 and the star from the east. I'll cover other aspects later. So, this is in reply to post # 136 and a little bit of post #144

    Most of your references are to the man-god myths from pagan religions. Before people get all twisted by my use of the word pagan look it up. It doesnt mean anything inherently ugly. Im not being insulting or derogatory by using that word. Your original statement that started this line of discussion mentioned Christian teachings stemming from astrology. Post 136 doesnt reference any teachings just man-god pagan beliefs. How does that bolster your Christian teachings are from astrology argument? You elaborated that by teachings you mean the Christian fable - That may be the best and most logical point you made and I dont think you even made it purposely. Most of the things you say are part of Christianity arent. Please read on for my explanation of this. You need to separate Christianity and bible teaching from modern day false Christianity. Because most of the fables you mention are not biblically based or part of the bible narrative.

    First point December 25: You make a bunch of references to December 25 in your proof of astrology as the basis for Christianity. So? The bible does not state anywhere that Jesus was born on or around December 25. So, I fail to see how pagan customs related to that date prove Christian teachings or the bible account comes from astrology. All youve managed to prove by mentioning that date repeatedly is something most of us probably already know the origins of Christmas are rooted deeply in non-Christian origins. December 25 has ALWAYS been closely associated with paganism. Celebrating the birth of Jesus on December 25 is NOT a bible teaching. The first-century Christians did not do anything special on December 25. Jesus never commanded his followers to commemorate his birth. So, the FACT that false Christians celebrate their holiday of Christmas on December 25 and the customs of Christmas are of pagan origin does NOT prove pagan origins of the bible or Jesus teachings.

    I cant make this point strongly enough. The Christmas traditions are not bible based There may be some people out there reading this that are not very well versed in the bible and think that Christmas customs come from the bible so your post makes them agree that all of the December 25 info has some bearing on the validity of the bible. Anyone who thinks that, please read the account in the bible. If you dont know where it is, read Matthew 1:18 thru 2:23. Jesus birth is also discussed in Luke 1:26 thru 2:20.

    When was Jesus born? We do not know for certain. Anyone who says they do is full of crap. The bible does not indicate the date. We can look at the information given in the bible and determine it was sometime in the fall season. The main point is the date of Jesus birth IS NOT December 25. Its noteworthy that the bible does NOT give the date. Why is this noteworthy? If it was something we needed to know it would be in there. Jesus never commanded anyone to celebrate his birth. He did command his followers to commemorate his death and the bible is very clear on the exact date of that Nisan 14. Which is a date on the Jewish calendar that falls around April / May on our calendar.

    Second point the star announcing his birth and the three kings: Lets get the background - not the astrology background, the biblical background. The only mention of this account in the bible is Matthew Chapter 2 - Everyone, get out your bibles and look it up so you know Im not creating anything or making this up. In a nutshell it didnt happen the way the Christmas tradition teaches or the way its depicted in nativity scenes. Matthew does not specify how many of these men came, nor does he call them wise men, much less three kings. He simply said astrologers (more on that later).

    This is a very, very, very important detail here where did the star lead them? To Jerusalem and King Herod. Where was Jesus Born? Bethlehem. Huh? What? Did you catch that? The star did not guide them to Jesus or the place of his birth. It guided them to Jerusalem and King Herod. Why does this matter? Read on in the bible to find out what Herod did. He was an enemy of Jesus and the Jews. He tried to find out the place and time of Jesus birth. Once he had the information he ordered every child under 2 years of age in Bethlehem be killed. Ok, back to the astrologers. The star FIRST guided them to Jerusalem and Herod, then to Bethlehem. Another VERY important detail here. When they got to Bethlehem and finally saw Jesus they went into the house where Mary was with the young child. Wait, did I say house? Yes. I did. But wasnt Jesus born in a manger and the nativity scene has the 3 wise men in the barn with him? Thats just my point. The classic nativity scene is NOT consistent with the bible. When the astrologers visited Jesus he was in a house. Herod questioned the astrologers about the exact time of the stars arrival then ordered every child 2 YEARS OF AGE & UNDERR killed. If the star led them to a baby just born why would Herods investigation lead him to conclude that the baby he wanted to kill might be as old as 2 years old? Because when the astrologers visited Jesus he was not a baby just born. Look closely at the exact words used at Matthew 2:11 almost every translation uses the phrase young child to describe Jesus when visited by the astrologers. However, compare that to Luke 2:16 and the visit of the shepherds. There the words baby and infant are used. Why is this noteworthy? It proves that the visit from the astrologers to Jesus was NOT done at the time of his birth. But, when he was already several months and maybe even almost 2 years old.

    So, contrary to popular belief, the astrologers first arrived, not in Bethlehem, but in Jerusalem, after Jesus was born. They were not present at the time of Jesus birth. The popular story of three kings honoring Jesus at the time of his birth is not accurate.
    Who were these guys? As mentioned above, the bible teaches that the Magi who visited Jesus were not kings but astrologers who practiced the occult. Were they also kings? If they were, it is reasonable to expect that the bible would have identified them as such. Matthew 2:1-12 uses the word king four times, once referring to Jesus and three times to Herod. But not once does it call the astrologers kings. Matthew used the plural form of the Greek word magos. Different bible translations render that word as wise men, astrologers, or stargazers, or they simply transliterate it as Magi. This word refers to those who give advice and make predictions based on the position of the stars and the planets. The bible identifies these guys as diviners, who used occult practices disapproved by God.

    More on this remember, Herod asked them to go find Jesus and then report back to him. Herod wanted to kill Jesus. So, God gave the astrologers a message in a dream to not go back to Herod. Keep this point in mind. Bear with me, Im wrapping this up very soon.

    Also recall the bible story of the shepherds who were told by an angel that Jesus was just born. They went that same night and saw Jesus in the manger. Now, if God communicated the birth of his son by means of an angel and communicated with the astrologers by means of a dream and the primary message the star gave was to lead people who practiced occult and pagan divination to an enemy of Jesus we can conclude that the star was NOT something God provided. Who wanted to harm Gods son? The same person from back in the Garden of Eden who hid his true self behind the snake Satan. I know this sounds very odd and sinister. But, it makes the point to counter several of Killers points.

    All of Killers arguments involving three kings, Sirius, Orion, December 25, winter solstice, all of that have NOTHING to do with the bible narrative and NOTHING to do with the roots of true Christianity. All of your arguments on that particular theme did was to bolster my argument that false Christians have allowed pagan beliefs and customs to infiltrate their doctrines and corrupt true Christianity.

    The only mention of a star from the east in the bible account of Jesus birth is negative. It is not part of anything a Christian would hold dear or see as a foundation of their faith. This star was supplied by Satan to lead pagans to an enemy of Jesus and be complicit in the murder of innocent children. The fact that millions of people place an image of this star on their Christmas tree (a phallic symbol with Celtic and Druid roots) doesnt make it Christian. It is not a Christian practice. It reeks of false worship of God, it reeks of paganism.

    conclusion: If parallels between Matthews account of Jesus birth regarding a star from the east and pagan legends / myths regarding stars from the east lead you to believe that Matthew based his story on astrology that would look on the surface like a good assumption. But reason it out. The star of Matthews story is presented in a very negative light. If astrology and its accompanying tales were something he found as a basis for inspiration why would it be presented as something bad? If youre saying just the mere presence of a star from the east in both narratives proves common roots I would say yes, it does. But, not at all in the same way youre implying.

    We can classify all religions and faiths as being either:
    1. Proper worship of the God of the bible in line with the teachings of the bible

    OR

    2. Any worship not directed to the God of the bible and not in line with the bibles teachings.

    Lets call it true worship and false worship. Wouldnt you expect to see commonality among all forms of false worship? If the purpose of true worship is to honor God, then the purpose of false worship is to dishonor God. Who wants to dishonor God? Satan. This isnt getting preachy and Im not trying to convert anyone. And please dont jump on me as saying that if you disagree with me Im calling you a Satan worshiper. Dont jump to conclusions. Just follow my logic here to make a point about this star. Just about this star business here not making generalizations about peoples motives. If False worship is Satan trying to get humans to not worship God and one way he has done this thru thousands of years of false worship is to present man-god stories to people using astrology then my point is that Satan used a star from the east to manipulate events to try to get false worshippers to kill Jesus. So, Matthew mentioning the star doesnt mean he founded his story on astrology but he demonstrated that Satan has always used astrology to divert worship from God and when Jesus was born Satan reached into his bag of tricks and tried to use it to kill Gods son. God intervened and saved his son by first telling the astrologers to not report to Herod the exact location of Jesus and second by sending Jesus to Egypt to escape the slaughter of infants in Bethlehem.

    There is not one reference anywhere in the bible of God using stars or astrology to communicate with humans. There are many references commanding his followers to NOT look for omens and signs. And there are many references to false worshippers using astrology.

    OK that was a very long and belabored point. We covered December 25 and the star. Next post will be virgin birth and 12 apostles. Its almost 3:00 AM here Ill do it tomorrow. Gnight.
    11-13-08 03:58 AM
  8. luvitlo's Avatar
    Im not gonna quote Killers previous post cause my reply is not in the same order of details and doesnt cover all of his points. Im just taking up the issues of December 25 and the star from the east. I'll cover other aspects later. So, this is in reply to post # 136 and a little bit of post #144

    Most of your references are to the man-god myths from pagan religions. Before people get all twisted by my use of the word pagan look it up. It doesnt mean anything inherently ugly. Im not being insulting or derogatory by using that word. Your original statement that started this line of discussion mentioned Christian teachings stemming from astrology. Post 136 doesnt reference any teachings just man-god pagan beliefs. How does that bolster your Christian teachings are from astrology argument? You elaborated that by teachings you mean the Christian fable - That may be the best and most logical point you made and I dont think you even made it purposely. Most of the things you say are part of Christianity arent. Please read on for my explanation of this. You need to separate Christianity and bible teaching from modern day false Christianity. Because most of the fables you mention are not biblically based or part of the bible narrative.

    First point December 25: You make a bunch of references to December 25 in your proof of astrology as the basis for Christianity. So? The bible does not state anywhere that Jesus was born on or around December 25. So, I fail to see how pagan customs related to that date prove Christian teachings or the bible account comes from astrology. All youve managed to prove by mentioning that date repeatedly is something most of us probably already know the origins of Christmas are rooted deeply in non-Christian origins. December 25 has ALWAYS been closely associated with paganism. Celebrating the birth of Jesus on December 25 is NOT a bible teaching. The first-century Christians did not do anything special on December 25. Jesus never commanded his followers to commemorate his birth. So, the FACT that false Christians celebrate their holiday of Christmas on December 25 and the customs of Christmas are of pagan origin does NOT prove pagan origins of the bible or Jesus teachings.

    I cant make this point strongly enough. The Christmas traditions are not bible based There may be some people out there reading this that are not very well versed in the bible and think that Christmas customs come from the bible so your post makes them agree that all of the December 25 info has some bearing on the validity of the bible. Anyone who thinks that, please read the account in the bible. If you dont know where it is, read Matthew 1:18 thru 2:23. Jesus birth is also discussed in Luke 1:26 thru 2:20.

    When was Jesus born? We do not know for certain. Anyone who says they do is full of crap. The bible does not indicate the date. We can look at the information given in the bible and determine it was sometime in the fall season. The main point is the date of Jesus birth IS NOT December 25. Its noteworthy that the bible does NOT give the date. Why is this noteworthy? If it was something we needed to know it would be in there. Jesus never commanded anyone to celebrate his birth. He did command his followers to commemorate his death and the bible is very clear on the exact date of that Nisan 14. Which is a date on the Jewish calendar that falls around April / May on our calendar.

    Second point the star announcing his birth and the three kings: Lets get the background - not the astrology background, the biblical background. The only mention of this account in the bible is Matthew Chapter 2 - Everyone, get out your bibles and look it up so you know Im not creating anything or making this up. In a nutshell it didnt happen the way the Christmas tradition teaches or the way its depicted in nativity scenes. Matthew does not specify how many of these men came, nor does he call them wise men, much less three kings. He simply said astrologers (more on that later).

    This is a very, very, very important detail here where did the star lead them? To Jerusalem and King Herod. Where was Jesus Born? Bethlehem. Huh? What? Did you catch that? The star did not guide them to Jesus or the place of his birth. It guided them to Jerusalem and King Herod. Why does this matter? Read on in the bible to find out what Herod did. He was an enemy of Jesus and the Jews. He tried to find out the place and time of Jesus birth. Once he had the information he ordered every child under 2 years of age in Bethlehem be killed. Ok, back to the astrologers. The star FIRST guided them to Jerusalem and Herod, then to Bethlehem. Another VERY important detail here. When they got to Bethlehem and finally saw Jesus they went into the house where Mary was with the young child. Wait, did I say house? Yes. I did. But wasnt Jesus born in a manger and the nativity scene has the 3 wise men in the barn with him? Thats just my point. The classic nativity scene is NOT consistent with the bible. When the astrologers visited Jesus he was in a house. Herod questioned the astrologers about the exact time of the stars arrival then ordered every child 2 YEARS OF AGE & UNDERR killed. If the star led them to a baby just born why would Herods investigation lead him to conclude that the baby he wanted to kill might be as old as 2 years old? Because when the astrologers visited Jesus he was not a baby just born. Look closely at the exact words used at Matthew 2:11 almost every translation uses the phrase young child to describe Jesus when visited by the astrologers. However, compare that to Luke 2:16 and the visit of the shepherds. There the words baby and infant are used. Why is this noteworthy? It proves that the visit from the astrologers to Jesus was NOT done at the time of his birth. But, when he was already several months and maybe even almost 2 years old.

    So, contrary to popular belief, the astrologers first arrived, not in Bethlehem, but in Jerusalem, after Jesus was born. They were not present at the time of Jesus birth. The popular story of three kings honoring Jesus at the time of his birth is not accurate.
    Who were these guys? As mentioned above, the bible teaches that the Magi who visited Jesus were not kings but astrologers who practiced the occult. Were they also kings? If they were, it is reasonable to expect that the bible would have identified them as such. Matthew 2:1-12 uses the word king four times, once referring to Jesus and three times to Herod. But not once does it call the astrologers kings. Matthew used the plural form of the Greek word magos. Different bible translations render that word as wise men, astrologers, or stargazers, or they simply transliterate it as Magi. This word refers to those who give advice and make predictions based on the position of the stars and the planets. The bible identifies these guys as diviners, who used occult practices disapproved by God.

    More on this remember, Herod asked them to go find Jesus and then report back to him. Herod wanted to kill Jesus. So, God gave the astrologers a message in a dream to not go back to Herod. Keep this point in mind. Bear with me, Im wrapping this up very soon.

    Also recall the bible story of the shepherds who were told by an angel that Jesus was just born. They went that same night and saw Jesus in the manger. Now, if God communicated the birth of his son by means of an angel and communicated with the astrologers by means of a dream and the primary message the star gave was to lead people who practiced occult and pagan divination to an enemy of Jesus we can conclude that the star was NOT something God provided. Who wanted to harm Gods son? The same person from back in the Garden of Eden who hid his true self behind the snake Satan. I know this sounds very odd and sinister. But, it makes the point to counter several of Killers points.

    All of Killers arguments involving three kings, Sirius, Orion, December 25, winter solstice, all of that have NOTHING to do with the bible narrative and NOTHING to do with the roots of true Christianity. All of your arguments on that particular theme did was to bolster my argument that false Christians have allowed pagan beliefs and customs to infiltrate their doctrines and corrupt true Christianity.

    The only mention of a star from the east in the bible account of Jesus birth is negative. It is not part of anything a Christian would hold dear or see as a foundation of their faith. This star was supplied by Satan to lead pagans to an enemy of Jesus and be complicit in the murder of innocent children. The fact that millions of people place an image of this star on their Christmas tree (a phallic symbol with Celtic and Druid roots) doesnt make it Christian. It is not a Christian practice. It reeks of false worship of God, it reeks of paganism.

    conclusion: If parallels between Matthews account of Jesus birth regarding a star from the east and pagan legends / myths regarding stars from the east lead you to believe that Matthew based his story on astrology that would look on the surface like a good assumption. But reason it out. The star of Matthews story is presented in a very negative light. If astrology and its accompanying tales were something he found as a basis for inspiration why would it be presented as something bad? If youre saying just the mere presence of a star from the east in both narratives proves common roots I would say yes, it does. But, not at all in the same way youre implying.

    We can classify all religions and faiths as being either:
    1. Proper worship of the God of the bible in line with the teachings of the bible

    OR

    2. Any worship not directed to the God of the bible and not in line with the bibles teachings.

    Lets call it true worship and false worship. Wouldnt you expect to see commonality among all forms of false worship? If the purpose of true worship is to honor God, then the purpose of false worship is to dishonor God. Who wants to dishonor God? Satan. This isnt getting preachy and Im not trying to convert anyone. And please dont jump on me as saying that if you disagree with me Im calling you a Satan worshiper. Dont jump to conclusions. Just follow my logic here to make a point about this star. Just about this star business here not making generalizations about peoples motives. If False worship is Satan trying to get humans to not worship God and one way he has done this thru thousands of years of false worship is to present man-god stories to people using astrology then my point is that Satan used a star from the east to manipulate events to try to get false worshippers to kill Jesus. So, Matthew mentioning the star doesnt mean he founded his story on astrology but he demonstrated that Satan has always used astrology to divert worship from God and when Jesus was born Satan reached into his bag of tricks and tried to use it to kill Gods son. God intervened and saved his son by first telling the astrologers to not report to Herod the exact location of Jesus and second by sending Jesus to Egypt to escape the slaughter of infants in Bethlehem.

    There is not one reference anywhere in the bible of God using stars or astrology to communicate with humans. There are many references commanding his followers to NOT look for omens and signs. And there are many references to false worshippers using astrology.

    OK that was a very long and belabored point. We covered December 25 and the star. Next post will be virgin birth and 12 apostles. Its almost 3:00 AM here Ill do it tomorrow. Gnight.

    Come to a ONE GOD APostolic church and you will see that We been preachin the Truth for well since I was a kid and We do't follow the traditions of the easter, christmas, wedding rings...etc...etc...etc.... It's all from PAGAN origins and was only adopted for the sole purpose of drawing in the Pagan followers into Christianity. As I stated before Jesus wasnot born Dec 25 it was during tax season and the resurrection didn't occur during Easter it all follows significant Pagan celebrations' and if You read your BILBLE from cover to cover don't just pick out the verses that you like it tells you in black and white to not celebrate Christmas. warns of the tree worshippers offering sacrifice to the evergreen tree and so on and so on. and that gold wedding band on the 3rd finger Pegan as well so come to a TRUE APOSTOLIC church I would say Pentecostal but everyon is Pentecostal today and so carasmatic it pathetic. My church don't even believe in TV thats right if I didn't see it before I got in church chances are I never will no TV in my house.
    11-13-08 06:40 AM
  9. squiddaddy's Avatar
    After reading all of thuis my brain hurts.

    We should all understand by now why more people have been killed in the name of god and wars started. Its because one person got tired of listening to another persons ideals and figured he would take out the other guy just to shut him up.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-13-08 07:21 AM
  10. prometheus's Avatar
    After reading all of thuis my brain hurts.

    We should all understand by now why more people have been killed in the name of god and wars started. Its because one person got tired of listening to another persons ideals and figured he would take out the other guy just to shut him up.
    squid- I love your posts.
    11-13-08 10:46 AM
  11. cereal killer's Avatar
    No TV? Come on now that's just ridiculous. Prime example of another form of control. You sure the Taliban is not running your church.

    Let me guess. Women can't hold any positions of power over men neither right? Don't lie cuz I will catch you : )

    Speaking on god and wars. Its pretty funny when the combatants on both sides pray to their respective gods before going into Battle for their side to come out victorious and keep them all safe. What does god do then flip a coin?

    Alex no disrespect but you are treating the Bible like it is "the word" its a book with many contradictions in it. So the validity of everything you have written is null and void. You can pick out passages all day long and weave an intricate story but in the end it does not hold up. Do you expect people to believe or buy into the fact that nobody knows when this character Jesus was born? How convenient! Supposedly this great man walked the earth and no one knows when he was born? Thats just insane. Again there is not one bit of historical evidence OUTSIDE of religious doctrine.

    You keep talking about him and the more you write the more it proves what a ridiculous notion of this guy existing is. Your intelligent Alex. Very intelligent but I have to question your judgement here. Important things are always left out or unknown. How convenient.

    Don't you see that's how these stories are spun. You cannot possibly say you don't recognize this. Fables are full of inconsistencies and loose ends. That's what allows them to exist. I know I'm not crazy here in this thinking.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-13-08 11:19 AM
  12. squiddaddy's Avatar
    squid- I love your posts.
    Thank you. I'm serious...... I don't make up this stuff.

    At one very scary time in my life I studied all the world's religions and then all of the "Christian" cults aka denominations. This was a result of thinking I wanted to enter a Seminary and wanting to know if what i was commiting my life to was right. My conclusion was, who the he11 is right? There is overlap in beliefs and stories in almost all of the worlds religions. I do believe there is a power greater than myself and I choose to call him God. My comments and interjections are not meant to offend or ridicule but bring a little humor to how people believe.

    With that said I will never disrespect or argue someone's beleifs or lack of. Everyone believes what feels good to them. It would be like arguing why my Fruit Of The Looms are better than thier Hanes.
    Last edited by squiddaddy; 11-13-08 at 11:44 AM.
    11-13-08 11:40 AM
  13. prometheus's Avatar
    I said Id next discuss virgin birth and 12 disciples. Im not in the mood for that lets go thru some of your points one by one.

    Let us start with Horus

    1.
    .Horus was born on December 25th .
    So? (see my previous post) However, the information I have on Horus date of birth is very conflicting. I almost wish it could be definitively confirmed as December 25 to just go along with all of the other myths related to that date. But, different research books I reviewed gave 4 different dates. The date that pops up the most often is in the month of Khoiak which is an Egyptian month corresponding to our Gregorian calendars October / November timeframe. But, even this is uncertain since ancient Egyptian calendars were based on the flooding of the Nile and changed from year to year, so it is IMPOSSIBLE to find a corresponding Gregorian date.

    2.
    .Horus was born on December 25th of the virgin Isis-Meri.
    Lets focus for a moment on the word virgin. Your point being Horus born from a virgin / Jesus Born from a virgin = the story of Jesus was based on the legend of Horus. That would be a good point if it were actually true. However, Isis was never mentioned in Egyptian legend as a virgin at the time of Horus birth. Isis was married to Osiris in. He was killed and dismembered by Horus older brother Set (wait, brother? I thought she was a virgin?) Isis put him back together than couldnt find the ***** made one out of wood and conceived Horus and then went on to have more children. Granted, there is a supernatural conception. But, not exactly something many people would call a virgin birth. Killer, please provide some sort of reference to your statement that Isis conceived Horus as a virgin. So, the stories of how Jesus and Horus were conceived share very little in common- hardly a basis for making the claim that astrology is the basis for the bible account. Just to add to it Horus is believed to be born as a falcon that was perched on a tree, not in a manger or barn but in a swamp. So, his birth story is not the source of Jesus birth story share very little in common.

    3
    .Horus was born on December 25th of the virgin Isis-Meri.
    Now, lets focus on the Meri part of your claim. Your implication being the name Meri as the source for the Jesus story including the mother named Mary. I dont want to put words in your moth this is your story. Is that what you meant. Because anytime I get someone claiming the whole Jesus is based on Horus argument they always bring up the name Meri. If thats your point - wrong again here. No reference in Egyptian legend links the NAME Meri or Mary to Isis. Meri in the Egyptian language means beloved its not a name but a quality. Its something a husband would call a wife or vice-versa. Normal Egyptian people would have used this term when referring to their loved ones. It is the title given to Isis by her husband Osiris as a term of endearment and not as a proper name. There is NO basis for the Mary character in Isis.

    4. More on Mary The bible account states that Mary became pregnant thru means other than intercourse. The bible speaks of Mary as a virgin before the birth of Jesus, not after. There are references to Mary and Joseph having other children after Jesus. The bible does not present Mary as an ever-virgin thats a Catholic thing, not a bible thing. The term immaculate conception is actually a doctrine of Catholics that states that Mary herself was born without sin. That is a completely non-bible-based concept. Fertility worship and worship of mother figures was rampant in almost all of pagan beliefs. Early Christians incorporated these beliefs and weaved them into their brand of Christianity. But this is no way indicates the story of Mary as found in the bible to be based on and founded in astrology. If differs greatly. Mary was a simple peasant who was born with sin and had one small, special role that did not elevate her beyond someone to admire. Her mention in the bible after the birth of Jesus is very minimal and not consistent with Catholic and false Christian doctrine. She was not an ever virgin. She is not elevated to a place of worship. Jesus Followers were NEVER instructed to direct prayers, worship, or sacrifices to her. To say the character in the bible named Mary is an amalgam if astrological legends and pagan beliefs, is to ignore the bibles narrative on Mary and accept the false Christian doctrines of Mary which I completely agree are just an extension of fertility goddess worship, moon worship, sun worship, mother figure worship, and astrology. But, it is not what the bible writers wrote.

    5.
    His birth was accompanied by a star in the east, which in turn, 3 kings followed to locate and adorn the new-born savior...
    I know we already covered the star thing. But, I just need to know where do you get the star announced his birth story from. Please cite your historical reference. I find absolutely none. It is a fact that stars in the Orion constellation are named after him, but the Egyptian legend doesnt mention stars appearing as part of his birth. The whole 3-kings thing has been discussed. However, the only reference I see to 3 kings in the whole Horus account is that the constellation of which Horus is a star contains stars called the 3 kings but Egyptian mythology does NOT reference any kings visiting the newly born Horus. So, again whered you come up with that?

    6.
    . At the age of 12, he was a prodigal child teacher and at the age of 30 he was baptized by a figure known as Anup and began his ministry
    Horus is depicted in Egyptian mythology as a weakling as a child. There is no mention I can find anywhere of him teaching in a temple at any age. There is not one single reference of Horus ever being baptized. It just did not happen. When did he minister or teach? There is no reference to any of these activities in Egyptian mythology. Where did you get this? Please cite your reference. Were speaking of myths and legends well, the whole Horus was in a temple at 12, baptized at 30 nonsense is NOT found in Egyptian mythology it simply is not. It is a story created in modern times with not one shred of proof from Egyptian mythology cited to back it up. This part of the Horus story was never believed back in ancient Egypt because it didnt even enter the Horus mythology until about 200 years ago.

    7.
    . Horus had 12 disciples he traveled about with, performing miracles such as healing the sick.
    Again, where did you get this from? The only record of followers of Horus were 4 half-gods. Theres also mention of blacksmiths accompanying him to assist in his battles with his brother Set, and one story of 16 followers but not shred of reference to 12 disciples sorry to bust your bubble. But, thats just complete fabrication and is NOT part of the Egyptian mythological account of Horus.

    8.
    .Horus was known by many gestural names such as The Truth, The Light, God's Annointed Son, The Good Shepherd, The Lamb of God, and many others
    Huh? The only titles I see for Horus are: the Distant One, the Great Black One, Lord of the Perch, Lord of the Finger, Horus the Great, Horus the Elder, He Who Has Two Eyes, He Who Has No Eyes, The Good Horus, He Who Travels NONE of the titles you say are attributed to him, so I ask again where is your reference. What is your proof that magnificent titles that you attribute to both prove some sort of astrological basis for the biblical account and form the basis for Christianity?

    9.
    After being betrayed by Typhon, Horus was crucified and then buried for 3 days, and resurrected
    The custom of crucifying did not come into existence until Roman times which was almost 2,500 years AFTER Horus supposedly died. There is no reference to Horus being strung up on a cross. Where did you get your information on this? Its a fabrication. You mention Horus being buried for three days where is this from? I find NO reference in Egyptian mythology to this event. There is a reference to Osiris (Horus father) being brought back to life by Isis after dying. There is an account of Horus being attacked and then Isis, his mother asking the crocodile god to pull him to safety. But, nothing about Horus being buried for three days and no mention of his physically coming out of a grave. Another major point the death of Jesus in the bible is portrayed as sacrificial and dying for others this shares NOTHING in common with the account of Horus death. So, how do you conclude that the death of Horus was the basis for the story of Jesus death and then make the jump that this shows the bible and Christian teachings stem from astrology ? You lost me.
    11-13-08 12:57 PM
  14. prometheus's Avatar
    No TV? Come on now that's just ridiculous. Prime example of another form of control. You sure the Taliban is not running your church.

    Let me guess. Women can't hold any positions of power over men neither right? Don't lie cuz I will catch you : )

    Speaking on god and wars. Its pretty funny when the combatants on both sides pray to their respective gods before going into Battle for their side to come out victorious and keep them all safe. What does god do then flip a coin?
    Killer you have my complete and total agreement on every single word of this part of the post.

    One point I would make is the idea of TV I dont think he was saying he wasnt allowed to watch TV. If that is true then WOW! Thats scary. I think the comment was that he chose not to watch TV because of the negative influences he sees in it. I agree that TV can bring ugly things into the home that I dont find entertaining and unsupervised watching by my kids may give them ideas and influences I dont like. Thats why choice and taste are needed. I watch TV almost daily and Im a Christian.

    Sort of like the argument that a Christian shouldnt drink and alcohol. Jesus made wine. There are many references to Jesus drinking wine. The bible does condemn drunkenness. So, moderation is the key. If someone feels that they lack self control and cant even touch alcohol without going overboard then it may be wise for them personally to abstain. The bible urges Christians to analyze things and be reasonable not dogmatic.

    So, true Christian doctrine and the teachings of Jesus urge thought, logic, and reason. Evangelical churches may place strict regulations on many different activities of life. But, thats churches and religion and not the bible espousing those ideals. When you see an example of control and influence by Christian churches dont jump to the conclusion that Christianity and the bible are narrow-minded, and controlling. To do so would to be like seeing my neighbor beat his wife and then conclude that everyone on my block must be a wife-beater cause they have a similar address. Many churches that call themselves Christian make up rules for living that are not founded in the bible or based on Jesus teaching. So, when confronted by an example of control by a church thats all it is: control by a church. It is NOT the bible or God seeking to control.
    11-13-08 01:16 PM
  15. prometheus's Avatar
    Alex no disrespect but you are treating the Bible like it is "the word" its a book with many contradictions in it.
    Man, Im getting tired of people making this statement and then NEVER giving me examples of these supposed contradictions. I dont feel like going back and quoting all of the times posters said the bible is full of contradictions. But, I recall Baloon saying this, I think Cain did, If Squid didnt he probably thought it (sorry if Im wrong here Squid) and there have been others Im sure.

    It is a tired argument because I always wait anxiously for the challenger to start citing examples, but it never happens. Im sick and tired of people with no examples to cite making this claim. Now either start giving me examples of contradictions that I can debate or retract that statement and never say it again. Its getting ridiculous I never have anyone give me actual examples of these supposed contradictions.

    Its almost like someone saying to a straight guy, I know youre gay just look at all of the stuff thats gay about you. Then when the straight guy asks, what are talking about what makes you think Im gay? the challenger just says, there are soooo many indications you know its true. The straight guy responds, what do I do that makes you think Im gay give me some examples. The challenger says, oh come on, theres so many things you do that PROVE youre gay. Now everyone in the room starts thinking, hey this guy must be gay. However, the challenger never pointed out one fact to support the statement. Meanwhile the straight guy is happily married, has kids, has no sexual interest in guys and no homosexual tendencies. Now, every time he walks in the room the challenger snickers and points and says, here comes the gay dude. After a while the straight guys liable to lose it and pound the challengers face in and yell at him to shut the **** up. Thats where I am either start citing examples of these contradictions or shut the **** up.

    You say no disrespect. Another poster put it rather eloquently when he said, thats like saying, no disrespect intended but, your Moms a bit.ch.
    11-13-08 01:36 PM
  16. golfnut's Avatar
    This is no thread. This is a book! lol Seriously, take it easy.
    11-13-08 01:54 PM
  17. cereal killer's Avatar
    Well sometimes when someones mom IS a b*tch you have to point it out to them. Its a way of saying look this is the way it is. It may sound ugly but that's just the way it is.

    Anyhow, ill get back to you on some of those contradictions and such that seems most urgent now. You may explode and frag us all if I don't tend to that matter first.

    The other stuff I will get to as well.

    Hang tight.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-13-08 01:55 PM
  18. prometheus's Avatar
    Well sometimes when someones mom IS a b*tch you have to point it out to them. Its a way of saying look this is the way it is. It may sound ugly but that's just the way it is.

    Anyhow, ill get back to you on some of those contradictions and such that seems most urgent now. You may explode and frag us all if I don't tend to that matter first.

    The other stuff I will get to as well.

    Hang tight.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    killer - you've got a great sense of humor and good logic. Sorry i had a melt down earlier. that was uncalled for. I was actually having a bad day at work and other things were on my mind. It bled over to here. sorry -

    and you're right. soometimes the price of clarity is the risk of insult. if "it is what it is", then it would be disrespectful to sugarcoat it.

    ok - now that we cleared the air - i'll ck back later for examples of "contradictions"

    and golfnut - yeah it is a book. what i do is type a response in word, so i can can cut / paste / spellcheck and edit. then i paste the document to the thread. so, i write the response over the course of an entire day, a little here and a little there. and i cut and paste from documents i have already prepared as part of my "research" i've done on similar subjects in the past. so, yeah it is a book.

    as you can se when i just free - type in the reply field, it's sloppy and full of typos.
    11-13-08 02:46 PM
  19. luvitlo's Avatar
    Actually your right and it is in the Bible no woman should Hava rule over a man so we allow women to teach bible studies read scripture and give their feelings on it but no women pastors or assistant to a pastor and the no TV is because it is full of immortality, nudity, vulgarity, and everything thne Christian faith preaches against. We get enough in stores and restaurants without puttin a TV in the house to fill pud minds with filth really I don't miss TV there was never anything on when I had one anyway. I don't like reruns I get news and weather off the web so why bother with a noisy TV to distract me from my family and God

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-13-08 02:54 PM
  20. squiddaddy's Avatar
    Actually your right and it is in the Bible no woman should Hava rule over a man so we allow women to teach bible studies read scripture and give their feelings on it but no women pastors or assistant to a pastor and the no TV is because it is full of immortality, nudity, vulgarity, and everything thne Christian faith preaches against. We get enough in stores and restaurants without puttin a TV in the house to fill pud minds with filth really I don't miss TV there was never anything on when I had one anyway. I don't like reruns I get news and weather off the web so why bother with a noisy TV to distract me from my family and God

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

    Holy ****!!!!!!

    The only way you will get away from all that is to go build a big white church on a ranch in west Texas and live on it 24/7.

    .....wait a sec somebody already did that.

    If that makes you feel righteous more power to ya. I just don't see how staying away from TV will keep you away from all that.

    Not trying to break you down it's just that I don't understand it.

    As far as the way you guys treat the women I find it amazing that they buy into it. Can you hook me up with a hot one?
    11-13-08 03:04 PM
  21. prometheus's Avatar
    Actually your right and it is in the Bible no woman should Hava rule over a man so we allow women to teach bible studies read scripture and give their feelings on it but no women pastors or assistant to a pastor and the no TV is because it is full of immortality, nudity, vulgarity, and everything thne Christian faith preaches against. We get enough in stores and restaurants without puttin a TV in the house to fill pud minds with filth really I don't miss TV there was never anything on when I had one anyway. I don't like reruns I get news and weather off the web so why bother with a noisy TV to distract me from my family and God

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    so.... you don't own a TV because it's full of nudity & vulgarity among other things. Seems to me that you could just not watch those programs. I mean I harly ever see Matt Lauer naked on the Today Show.

    However... you see no problem with gathering your news and information from the internet. I just did a search on Google for the word "porn" I got (not joking) 198 million results. Now, last I checked I get about 50 channels on my basic cable.Of these 50 channels I would have to stay up late at night to catch a glimpse of an exposed breast for about 5 seconds on maybe 3 of these channels. compare that with 198 million pages with probably 75-80% containing GRAPHIC images of sex and nudity.

    So... your argument that TV is full of vulgarity, so you'lll use the internet makes ZERO sense to me.
    11-13-08 03:27 PM
  22. cereal killer's Avatar
    luvitlo is a trip. not sure if he suffered dain bramage or what in that accident. well at least he's somewhat ok.

    So Alex for fear of me being the cause of you bludgeoning your family to death and burning down your neighborhood I will give you some contradictions. I left the news on most of the day because I was in fear of what you may do. Nothing so far so I give you some contradictions. So sit down and put the bat and flamethrower away.

    Here's a few.

    John 8:14 Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true.
    John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

    James 1:13 Let no man say . . . I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."
    Genesis 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham.

    this is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

    But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.” - Matthew 1:18-21

    So, did the angel announce the pregnancy to Mary after she had become engaged to Joseph, or was Mary already pregnant before she met Joseph, and the angel visited Joseph to stop him divorcing her…it can’t be both ways.

    This is my all time favorite.

    and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. - Matthew 1:16

    Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli - Luke 3:23

    Two fathers? I guess Jesus wasn’t against gay marriage after all…turns out he did want you to vote no on prop 8. You folks who used religion as a moral compass are going to H, E, double L!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Last one. Because I could go on all night.

    and he was in the desert forty days, being tempted by Satan. He was with the wild animals, and angels attended him. After John was put in prison, Jesus went into Galilee, proclaiming the good news of God. - Mark 1:13-14

    After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized. (This was before John was put in prison.) - John 3:22-24

    Huh Whut? and to think the formation of the ministry is something considered very important to Christians…the Bible can’t even decide when it happened.

    Alex “gospel” means “truth” and for something to be true it can’t have contradictions. This is only a small compelation of them. Think about that for a moment. If this is supposed to be the word of god don't you think he'd get it right the first time?We havent even begun to mention the violations of womens rights in the bible. But I think luvitlo has a good handle on that one. He's done a great job of showing us that already.

    I have a little riddle for anyone who wants to answer it.

    Why did god put the tree of knowledge in Eden?
    Last edited by cereal killer; 11-13-08 at 07:40 PM.
    11-13-08 07:11 PM
  23. squiddaddy's Avatar
    The state of mind that questions is much more important than the question itself.Any question may be asked by a slavish mind, and the answer it receives will still be be within the limitations of its own slavery...Freedom of desire for an answer is essential for the understanding of a problem-Krishnamurti

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-13-08 07:50 PM
  24. luvitlo's Avatar
    so.... you don't own a TV because it's full of nudity & vulgarity among other things. Seems to me that you could just not watch those programs. I mean I harly ever see Matt Lauer naked on the Today Show.

    However... you see no problem with gathering your news and information from the internet. I just did a search on Google for the word "porn" I got (not joking) 198 million results. Now, last I checked I get about 50 channels on my basic cable.Of these 50 channels I would have to stay up late at night to catch a glimpse of an exposed breast for about 5 seconds on maybe 3 of these channels. compare that with 198 million pages with probably 75-80% containing GRAPHIC images of sex and nudity.

    So... your argument that TV is full of vulgarity, so you'lll use the internet makes ZERO sense to me.
    You don't read well do you I said you see it everyday in stores and public so why drag it in your house and I consider it nudity when these hoochy girls run around in shorts that should be labled as underware and tank tops that don't hold their goods propprely and then they wonder why some criminal rapes them or get mad cause the wrong guy checks them out my wife wears 3/4 length sleeve shirts if it a short sleeve she wears a jacket she wears ankle length skirts and no splits in any of them I am the only one whom has ever seen her goodies and laugh if you will but she was a virgin when we married and she was 33 years old there are still holy Godly Christian women out there

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-13-08 10:50 PM
  25. jenaywins's Avatar
    You don't read well do you I said you see it everyday in stores and public so why drag it in your house and I consider it nudity when these hoochy girls run around in shorts that should be labled as underware and tank tops that don't hold their goods propprely and then they wonder why some criminal rapes them or get mad cause the wrong guy checks them out my wife wears 3/4 length sleeve shirts if it a short sleeve she wears a jacket she wears ankle length skirts and no splits in any of them I am the only one whom has ever seen her goodies and laugh if you will but she was a virgin when we married and she was 33 years old there are still holy Godly Christian women out there

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    So you're telling us that your wife is a good holy godly whatever because she dresses for nuclear winter 24/7? So the halter top I wore yesterday must make me a real wh*re.

    I've stayed out ofthis thread, but having read all your bs all over this forum, I can't keep my mouth shut on this one.

    You come off as one of the most self-righteous, holier than thou, pig-headed men I've ever come across. Between all your posts in this thread and your stupid world of warcraft threads, and your blatant disregard for punctuation and the english language in general, its enough to make me sick.

    Take your third world views and keep them to yourself. Done.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-13-08 11:05 PM
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