01-31-14 09:43 PM
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  1. xxxxpradaxxxx's Avatar
    That's also what separates Christianity from other religions. We don't have to DO things for salvation.



    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    So Going to Church on Sundays, Following the Ten Commandments, Going to confessions, Receiving the Host, and living a life of virtue, have NOTHING to do with Receiving Salvation?

    Thats News To Me.

    I Guess Being Baptized, and Confirmed is a "Get Outta Jail Free Card".

    Sign Me Up!

    I Like the Easy Way.

    11-07-08 07:01 PM
  2. xxxxpradaxxxx's Avatar
    Also, and this is from Baloon's "faith is blindly believing" statement, I don't think Matthew and the other 11 disciples plus the thousands of other first hand eye witnesses had any "blind" part to their faith. "blessed are those who believe without seeing"

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    More Like, "Gullible are Those Who Believe Without Seeing."

    How do you know that ever happened?

    And Even If It Did-

    How Do You Know It Wasn't GROSSLY Exaggerated?

    UFO's are sighted all the Time, Bigfoot too.

    Does that mean they exist?
    11-07-08 07:03 PM
  3. musicnf123's Avatar
    No. I said we don't have to do anything in order to ACHIEVE salvation aside from accepting Jesus Christ as our savior. What we do is a RESULT of our salvation - a result of the Holy Spirit filling us and making us WANT to follow God's word.

    So Going to Church on Sundays, Following the Ten Commandments, Going to confessions, Receiving the Host, and living a life of virtue, have NOTHING to do with Receiving Salvation?

    Thats News To Me.

    I Guess Being Baptized, and Confirmed is a "Get Outta Jail Free Card".

    Sign Me Up!

    I Like the Easy Way.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-07-08 09:31 PM
  4. musicnf123's Avatar
    And to add...yes. Essentially, you have it right, that IS all we HAVE to do.

    No. I said we don't have to do anything in order to ACHIEVE salvation aside from accepting Jesus Christ as our savior. What we do is a RESULT of our salvation - a result of the Holy Spirit filling us and making us WANT to follow God's word.



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    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    11-08-08 12:34 AM
  5. phayro999's Avatar
    I dont practice Practice Masochism or Self Sacrifice. I am nothing but a sinner saved by the grace of Jesus. You see all of us are sinners, some are saved. some aren't. What my salvation does is make me want to follow what my God wants. In the Bible certain things are condemned. So therefore I must condemn those same things or be a hypochrite. It is my duty as a beleiver in Christ to do what the Bible teaches.
    11-08-08 12:47 AM
  6. cain0013's Avatar
    I'm with Ballon Knot on this one. Its just a book. I'm not going to base my life on anything that I read. People can say what they want about the bible. It was written by men. That's it and that's all. Why would God write a book about himself?

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    11-08-08 01:02 AM
  7. golfnut's Avatar
    I'm with Ballon Knot on this one. Its just a book. I'm not going to base my life on anything that I read. People can say what they want about the bible. It was written by men. That's it and that's all. Why would God write a book about himself?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    He didn't write it himself. It is called the word of God, meaning his his words written by man. To you, it might be just a book. To others, including myself, it's much more than that. It's a way to aspire living how God would want us to live. To each their own, though. I respect your opinion, cain.
    11-08-08 01:51 AM
  8. cain0013's Avatar
    He didn't write it himself. It is called the word of God, meaning his his words written by man. To you, it might be just a book. To others, including myself, it's much more than that. It's a way to aspire living how God would want us to live. To each their own, though. I respect your opinion, cain.
    I respect your opinion and your faith,as well, golfnut. I have to say that I have never really understood Christianity. I am a very spiritual person. I respect others and their beliefs, but I do not understand how people can base their lives on a book. I know that it is based on faith. Something that you feel in your heart and soul, but I honestly never got it. I have read the bible several times. I took Theology in college and my parents are both very religious. However, I can honestly say that I feel closer to God or whatever deity, when I am enjoying other peoples company or just relaxing and breathing in the earth when I am alone in the woods. Its your right as an American to practice whatever religion you choose, but it is my right and the OP's to practice none at all. I think that I will just try to treat people with respect and not judge anyone based on anything because that's what works for me.

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    Last edited by cain0013; 11-11-08 at 11:15 PM.
    11-08-08 02:21 AM
  9. vinnie_dugan's Avatar
    Your spiritual? That is possibly one of the dumbest statements anyone can make. At least people that believe in christianity follow something.
    11-08-08 10:34 AM
  10. phayro999's Avatar
    The Bible, in my belief is the inerrant word of God. That is why as a Christian it is what I need to base my life on. It gives direction and helps to increase your faith. What does being spiritual mean exactly?
    11-08-08 12:12 PM
  11. phayro999's Avatar
    And I don't think God wrote a book about himself, he wrote a book as a manual so to speak, Standard Operational Procedures for mankind. Like the manual for your computer or blackberry lol.
    11-08-08 12:15 PM
  12. xxxxpradaxxxx's Avatar
    Your spiritual? That is possibly one of the dumbest statements anyone can make. At least people that believe in christianity follow something.
    Spiritual- Adjective
    1. of, pertaining to, or consisting of spirit; incorporeal.
    2. of or pertaining to the spirit or soul, as distinguished from the physical nature: a spiritual approach to life.
    3. closely akin in interests, attitude, outlook, etc.: the professor's spiritual heir in linguistics.
    4. of or pertaining to spirits or to spiritualists; supernatural or spiritualistic.
    5. characterized by or suggesting predominance of the spirit; ethereal or delicately refined: She is more of a spiritual type than her rowdy brother.
    6. of or pertaining to the spirit as the seat of the moral or religious nature.
    7. of or pertaining to sacred things or matters; religious; devotional; sacred.
    8. of or belonging to the church; ecclesiastical: lords spiritual and temporal.
    9. of or relating to the mind or intellect.
    noun
    10. a spiritual or religious song: authentic folk spirituals.
    11. spirituals, affairs of the church.
    12. a spiritual thing or matter.I'm Spiritual.

    I follow a set of codes and ethics, Meditate Daily, Attend Yearly Buddhist Retreats, Got My Last Reiki Attunement Last Year, and Pray often.

    I study all sorts of holistic therapies as well as energy-workings.

    I don't believe in a "Christian" God Though.

    You Can Be Spiritual and Not believe in any inherent "god".

    Please.

    Christians did not COIN "Spirituality".

    Mention "Spirituality" 100 years ago and I'm quite sure you'd be stoned as a witch, or worse, a satanist.

    Even the Sign of the Cross was considered Malevolent.

    _______

    So To Wrap this Up:

    I can be spiritual, Avoid the Dreaded "G" Word, and still have Fantasies about Jesus Christ in the Bedroom.

    11-08-08 12:33 PM
  13. phayro999's Avatar
    You are right, Christians did not coin spirituality. I have no need to be "spiritual". I am saved and going to heaven. That gives me peace every day that I have eternal life. I enjoy every day my walk with God and how he truly answers prayer in my life. No I am not spiritual, I am a sinner saved by grace that abounds.
    11-08-08 01:20 PM
  14. cain0013's Avatar
    Your spiritual? That is possibly one of the dumbest statements anyone can make. At least people that believe in christianity follow something.
    Lol. I have never been accused of being dumb because I'm not a Christian. If I "follow something", will it raise my IQ? Or will it make me narrow minded and combative like you?

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    11-08-08 01:34 PM
  15. golfnut's Avatar
    Look, I have something important to say. The OP is no longer with us as I'm sure you all noticed. Him and I butted heads on more than one occasion but in the end, we earned each other's respect. This thread is a highly sensitive, touchy subject. Balloon being banned is all the proof I need that if we don't mind our manners, they will close this thread. I don't want that. It's nice to have the oppertunity to debate a topic like this. Let's do our best to keep it going, huh?
    11-08-08 02:07 PM
  16. cain0013's Avatar
    Look, I have something important to say. The OP is no longer with us as I'm sure you all noticed. Him and I butted heads on more than one occasion but in the end, we earned each other's respect. This thread is a highly sensitive, touchy subject. Balloon being banned is all the proof I need that if we don't mind our manners, they will close this thread. I don't want that. It's nice to have the oppertunity to debate a topic like this. Let's do our best to keep it going, huh?
    I agree. I should have known better than to even reply to vinnie. From now on I will ignore his posts in this thread, just like I ignore them in every other thread. I don't want to see it closed either.

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    11-08-08 02:18 PM
  17. tj.bsap's Avatar
    I think its a vice versa thing with freedom of speech, they can thump their Bible and say things that i do not agree on. I have the freedom to tell them to not listen to them. I can see why you are angry with a few of these individuals, i just think they are so absorbed in thinking they are so right that others are wrong because the Bible and God is on their side. But bear in mind its not fair to judge a whole Christian community just because of a few self righteous individuals.

    I don't believe in the story of Adam and Eve. Its simply a fable. In MY opinion.

    In order for me to believe anything in the Bible I have to believe its the word of God. Which I don't. I would have to believe in a character named Jesus Christ. Which I don't.

    There is not one shred of eveidence that some dude named Jesus walked the earth OUTSIDE of religious material. Not one. There were plenty of people alive back then and oddly there is never a mention of him. Don't you find that a bit strange? If such a man was alive back then somebody would have written about him.

    If somebody can provide me evidence that he existed, I don't mean a body neither, I will look at it. Christian material does not count.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    I don't think anyone can give you any proof of Christ or whether the Bible was the exact word of God. Correct me if I'm wrong but i think Christianity is build on Faith, and Faith is all the believers have to hold on to. You are attacking a very sensitive subject. You can basically just say i don't believe in the whole Christianity cause i don't see Dinosaurs mentioned in the Bible and clearly there are evidence that they existed way before anything else. I think you have just changed a debate into an all out attack on other people's belief
    Last edited by tj.bsap; 11-08-08 at 03:18 PM.
    11-08-08 02:52 PM
  18. berry me with it's Avatar
    Lol. I have never been accused of being dumb because I'm not a Christian. If I "follow something", will it raise my IQ? Or will it make me narrow minded and combative like you?

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    Ha ha, that is vinnie to the T!
    11-08-08 07:57 PM
  19. prometheus's Avatar
    RE: the assertion that much of the bible is “made up”. Baloon summed up the skeptics and the higher critics’ arguments when he said:

    I don't believe in the story of Adam and Eve. Its simply a fable. In MY opinion. In order for me to believe anything in the Bible I have to believe its the word of God. Which I don't. I would have to believe in a character named Jesus Christ. Which I don't. There is not one shred of eveidence that some dude named Jesus walked the earth OUTSIDE of religious material. Not one. There were plenty of people alive back then and oddly there is never a mention of him. Don't you find that a bit strange? If such a man was alive back then somebody would have written about him. If somebody can provide me evidence that he existed, I don't mean a body neither, I will look at it. Christian material does not count.
    I think we’ve adequately beat the dead horse of Adam & Eve on previous posts. Besides, I’m tired of talking about two folks that really jacked up centuries of good livin’.

    Let’s move on to the argument “was Jesus a real person.”

    If you’re someone who holds the opinion that the bible is not something worthy of consideration please read on and see if any of these points appeal to your intellect and mind. I’m not making a plea to your emotions and the arguments don’t involve your heart. Look at the discussion as a restaurant review or movie review. My purpose it just to pique your curiosity enough to “consider” a closer look at the bible. Notice I did NOT say, “closer look into RELIGION”. We’re talking about the bible here. I think religion is the worst enemy of the bible. I remember a phrase I heard somewhere, “God, I pray, please save me from your followers.” I think if the bible had an audible voice it would say that. Don’t judge a book by its cover (or its readers).

    We can accept that the gospels were written within 8 years of the events they claim to record took place. That is the generally accepted scholarly view. Authenticity of Jesus aside, there’s not much debate regarding the DATING of the writing. The events that claim to be recorded claim to have occurred between 29 and 33 and the first record (Matthew) hit the streets in 41.

    This would be like someone today writing about events that occurred between 1996 and 2000. In the case of John, 65 years passed from event to record. Imagine someone completely making up events from the year 1943? Now imagine a modern writer completely fabricating events that idolized an obscure citizen and made specific references to the town you lived in and pinpointed the exact dates that you (or your parents) remember well. There would be many people who would know the events were complete fabrication. Some would say, “I was in that town at that time and that never happened.” The book would be dismissed as some nut writing a fictional story and attempting to pass it off as an actual event. Did that happen with the bible? No, the copying and distribution of the bible flourished. Why did the bible flourish and Jesus teachings spread? Because the people who witnessed the events were amazed and told all of their friends about it. The primary means of distributing the record of those events was the gospel writings. If someone saw Jesus and heard him speak and knew him to be some ordinary nose-picking slob and they saw a book about him claiming he was a miracle worker they’d laugh at Matthew and the book would have disappeared in antiquity.

    So… one reason to believe the bible tells the truth about Jesus is that it survived. Good stories come and go – historical records of actual events survive. The bible was NOT rejected by the people living in that area around that time – in fact the copying and distribution of the bible flourished. That would not have happened it the events were fictional.

    Why don’t we see very many other records of Jesus life? Baloon (and other critics) asks for “outside” material. Why? The gospel accounts weren’t written as religious propaganda. They were written and accepted at the time of their writing as historical records. You want historical records of Jesus? -There are 4 of them right on your bookshelf. Don’t dismiss them as unreliable and complete fabrication just because someone else who owns the book is a fool. If a raving lunatic owns an encyclopedia and quotes passages to justify rape and murder does that make the text in the encyclopedia less accurate?
    Why don’t we see more that a handful of historical references to Jesus? There was a systematic effort by the government of that day to stamp out its documentation and spread. Authorities tried to prevent its spread and the prevalent religion of that day in that area (Jerusalem first century) didn’t like Christians. The Jewish Sanhedrin tried to ban the teachings of Christians – not my spin on things - just solid history.

    Another angle…

    What characterizes myths, fables, and stories? - The lack of historical content and context. They usually sound something like this, “a long time ago in a distant land…” Compare the writing style of the bible’s gospel accounts. There are a ton of references to kings, governors, towns, rivers, etc. by name. This helps the reader see the gospels as a historical record and not the telling of a fanciful story.

    Many of the accounts speak of eyewitness to the events. Jesus didn’t preach and teach and perform miracles in dark back rooms. If a writer was going to make up a story of a miracle happening why pinpoint the date and location? Why would he “make up” that something happened in broad daylight in front of a crowd recently? It’s a lot easier to sell the story if you say, “a long time ago in a distant land a secret was told to my great-great-grandfather and that secret hasn’t been shared until this day.” The writers said, “a few years ago in Jerusalem this happened in broad daylight and many of you reading this were either there or knew someone who was there and told you about it.” Now, if someone made that claim and they were full of crap – would we still have his writings in our hands today?

    Also myths and legends take generations to develop. The gospels came on the scene a few years after the events they documented. In the few decades between the events of early Christianity and their being recorded in writing, there was no time for myths and legends to develop and be universally accepted.

    And remember, the audience reading the gospels were just itching to find fault. The writers couldn’t afford to risk inaccuracies (not to speak of willful manipulation of the facts), which would at once be exposed by those who would be only too glad to do so.

    See… not preachy, not judgmental, not critical of someone’s belief system. Just a logical sound argument for acceptance of the gospel accounts of Jesus as historically accurate and worthy of further consideration.
    11-11-08 02:12 PM
  20. cereal killer's Avatar
    Interesting thread. I will have to say that I will have to agree with Balloon on this.

    I do not practice any type of religion or hold onto any type of religious belief simply because it has been proven that Christianity is simply an ancient tale rooted in astrology that has been passed down throught the ages. There is a long list of religions that hold this belief in a character similar to Jesus Christ, dying, and being resurected.

    The teachings of Christianity actually comes from astrology. Yes its true.

    I do not believe in the Bible or Jesus Christ simply because there is not one shred of evidence that he existed and the Bible, as the OP pointed out, is full of contradictions.

    People are being outright lied to and cannot or will not even take the time to question what they are being taught. It starts at a young age and continues into their adult lives so its understandable why they live in fear of questioning these beliefs.

    Its so very obvious that religion does in fact teach fear which in turn does enable those few who really know the truth to control.

    Christianity has as much validity as Scientology when you really look at it. Sure you can laugh at the Scientologist but Christians are no different. Christianity has just been around longer.

    The arguement that Scientology was started by a sci fi author can be used the same with Christianity. Perhaps it was started by one man or men but nontheless it was started by men/man.

    I can't form beliefs on a story.

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    11-11-08 11:12 PM
  21. cain0013's Avatar
    Interesting thread. I will have to say that I will have to agree with Balloon on this.

    I do not practice any type of religion or hold onto any type of religious belief simply because it has been proven that Christianity is simply an ancient tale rooted in astrology that has been passed down throught the ages. There is a long list of religions that hold this belief in a character similar to Jesus Christ, dying, and being resurected.

    The teachings of Christianity actually comes from astrology. Yes its true.

    I do not believe in the Bible or Jesus Christ simply because there is not one shred of evidence that he existed and the Bible, as the OP pointed out, is full of contradictions.

    People are being outright lied to and cannot or will not even take the time to question what they are being taught. It starts at a young age and continues into their adult lives so its understandable why they live in fear of questioning these beliefs.

    Its so very obvious that religion does in fact teach fear which in turn does enable those few who really know the truth to control.

    Christianity has as much validity as Scientology when you really look at it. Sure you can laugh at the Scientologist but Christians are no different. Christianity has just been around longer.

    The arguement that Scientology was started by a sci fi author can be used the same with Christianity. Perhaps it was started by one man or men but nontheless it was started by men/man.

    I can't form beliefs on a story.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    I agree with you, cereal killer. It is difficult to not believe what you are taught as a child. I'm not talking about Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. If you are taught as a child that something is true; it is hard to dispute it as an adult. I was raised to be a "God fearing" person, and yet, I have always found that term to be ridiculous. One minute God is love. The next minute God will smite you for eating pork or wearing a polyester blend. I am amazed that so many people cling to such a contradicting and hateful doctrine.

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    11-12-08 12:46 AM
  22. golfnut's Avatar
    I agree with you, cereal killer. It is difficult to not believe what you are taught as a child. I'm not talking about Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. If you are taught as a child that something is true; it is hard to dispute it as an adult. I was raised to be a "God fearing" person, and yet, I have always found that term to be ridiculous. One minute God is love. The next minute God will smite you for eating pork or wearing a polyester blend. I am amazed that so many people cling to such a contradicting and hateful doctrine.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Does it really sound that far fetched? God is our father. A father has to be both loving and a disciplinarian. There are rules He sets forth for his children. Those of us that believe in God understand that the world would be in total chaos without rules to abide by. The Bible is the cornerstone for many people's beliefs and will continue to be. Just my thoughts on the matter.
    11-12-08 01:41 AM
  23. cereal killer's Avatar
    One minute God is love. The next minute God will smite you for eating pork or wearing a polyester blend. I am amazed that so many people cling to such a contradicting and hateful doctrine.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    cain that is really funny stuff. It's funny because it's so true YET people are blind to this.

    You mentioned Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny. Ok, I beleived in them as a kid and I'm guessing you did too. It goes the same way with the bible and the story of Jesus. you keep getting grilled over and over again into your adult years you really beleive it.

    Thats why people cling to this belief system. Thats all they have and thats how they identify themselves amoungst the masses. If that gets stripped away there goes their entire belief system. This is the basis of their lives. People in general have a need to belong to groups. it's human nature. Cain we are dealing with people who have been lied to and brainwashed for years and years. You see people who join cults where sexual abuse and a host of otjher bizarre behavior takes place and such and never leave. Why? Because there is one person that holds the power over all of them. What does this person use to hold power over them? One word: God. It's just a more perverse abuse of this belief system but nontheless you see how it works.

    The shameful thing about all this is that parents pass this stuff onto their kids who really have no choice in the matter. Thats whats really sad.

    I found something on another post for you cain. You and Balloon will get a kick out of it. I will grab it and post it here.

    *edit: Cain this will really make you mad. I bolded the important statement.


    all politicians lie anyway they can olnly do so much so long without congress so who cares who president as long as no woman enters office we fine and I only say that cause several countries we are allies with don't believe in women as leaders and we would lose those allies plus if your a christian it is in the Bible that no woman shall have rule over a man which means no women prsidents or pastors oopps did I say that out loud guess yall all know my religion is Apostolic now huh
    Last edited by cereal killer; 11-12-08 at 11:03 AM.
    11-12-08 10:57 AM
  24. golfnut's Avatar
    cain that is really funny stuff. It's funny because it's so true YET people are blind to this.

    You mentioned Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny. Ok, I beleived in them as a kid and I'm guessing you did too. It goes the same way with the bible and the story of Jesus. you keep getting grilled over and over again into your adult years you really beleive it.

    Thats why people cling to this belief system. Thats all they have and thats how they identify themselves amoungst the masses. If that gets stripped away there goes their entire belief system. This is the basis of their lives. People in general have a need to belong to groups. it's human nature. Cain we are dealing with people who have been lied to and brainwashed for years and years. You see people who join cults where sexual abuse and a host of otjher bizarre behavior takes place and such and never leave. Why? Because there is one person that holds the power over all of them. What does this person use to hold power over them? One word: God. It's just a more perverse abuse of this belief system but nontheless you see how it works.

    The shameful thing about all this is that parents pass this stuff onto their kids who really have no choice in the matter. Thats whats really sad.

    I found something on another post for you cain. You and Balloon will get a kick out of it. I will grab it and post it here.

    *edit: Cain this will really make you mad. I bolded the important statement.
    Balloon? Is that you? jk Our beliefs ARE all that we have. Because we choose it to be. Our eyes are wide open to what we believe. Do you have faith in anything or are you just stopping by to say hi?
    11-12-08 11:16 AM
  25. cain0013's Avatar
    Originally Posted by luvitlo:all politicians lie anyway they can olnly do so much so long without congress so who cares who president as long as no woman enters office we fine and I only say that cause several countries we are allies with don't believe in women as leaders and we would lose those allies plus if your a christian it is in the Bible that no woman shall have rule over a man which means no women prsidents or pastors oopps did I say that out loud guess yall all know my religion is Apostolic now huh


    I guess this guy never heard about the Queen of England. It is very ironic how religion and sexism seem to go hand in hand. Religion has been used as a very effective tool to keep women "in line". I'm just not a: do what your told, keep your head down, only speak when spoken to kind of girl. Maybe one day this guy will wake up and realize that it's 2008 and that he missed the dark ages by several hundred years.

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    11-12-08 11:30 AM
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