[prometheus]

The op's original rant was regarding the religious right's intrusion into politics and their practice of shoving their ideas down other people's throats. I have been accused in the past of hijacking threads and disregarding the original intent of the OP. I enjoy this discussion and don't want to take it in a direction Baloon does not desire - which I feel I have already started down that path. Out of respect for him (or her? - I don't know) - I'm gonna let Vinnie Dugan's challenes be unanswered. This is not the place for theoritical debate. Another poster observed wisely that no one's mind or ideas would be changed by reading a forum post.

Vinnie - thanks for the feedback. But until Baloon entertains the idea of debating bible interpretation - let's not stray off subject. This is his game - we play by his rules.

My point in bringing up what I believe to be false doctrines among what I call so-called Christians was to illustrate a point one must concede - that many of the mainstream Christian religions today have brought man's teaching's and ideas to the forefront and are disregarding the pattern Jesus set. I feel that mainstream Christian religions have obscured bible truths through religion. Then they arrogantly (and often hypocritically) force their "superior" morals on others. Then they have the audacity to say something childish like, "I'll pray for your lost soul".

If you reading this are someone who descibe themselves as "religious right" - imagine your furious anger if someone openly gay and openly rejecting traditional christian views determined by their own omnipotence that YOU were wrong for being straight and Christian and promised to pray for your soul to deliver you from eternal torment for not subscribing to their morals. Man, you'd blow a gasket. Why would one expect any different response from a so-called "non-believer". Baloon's point is well made - religious zealots are annoying, arrogant, and rude.

They're like kids that offer you candy. You politely refuse 'cause you don't like that kind of candy and prefer your chocolate. Their response is to offer it 87 more times, call you names for not liking their candy. Try to hold you down and pry your mouth open. Then if you adamantly refuse their candy - Then say, "I hope you choke and die on your chocolate." If their candy is so wonderful - enjoy. If you want to share and I say, "No thanks" - leave me alone and let me enjoy my chocolate in peace. I think that's what Baloon was getting at.

I don't think he's too concerned about who's right and who's wrong. Maybe I missed something - but, I don't think he was asking, "what does the bible teach on XYZ subject?". It's the methodology of some that offend him.

[BlackBerryBob]

From someone who loves history the whole separation of church is state is not even in the Constitution. Jefferson wrote a letter, in it he use the phrase SCS. He also went on to write that, they should coexist but one should not be over the other.

Thank you! I was just about to reply with this text.

I'd like to add the famous quote from Rodney King - "Can't we just all get along"

[prometheus]

I'd like to add the famous quote from Rodney King - "Can't we just all get along"

sweeeeet!! I usually don't type "lol" 'cause I rarely actually "laugh out loud" I might type sqtm (snicker quietly to myself). But, Bob - you earned this: LOL!!

[Balloon Knot]

Alex please do take this thread where you want to take it. I believe by you doing so will only serve my original intent of exposing what you have so brilliantly expressed so far.

So yes please join in the discussion. This goes for everyone as well. No need to censor ourselves let it rip.

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[prometheus]

ok - will do. Let's get the ball rolling...

I intend to do is demonstrate how false docrines (non-bible based teaching) have made most mainstream Christian religions unpalateable (to put it mildly). The truth taught in the bible is refreshing and inviting. The message coming from the religious right is intolerable. The false doctines that have crept into modern Christianity (as one poster pointed out) were borrowed from paganism. The intent (though not overtly stated) is to control the masses, scare ignorant sheep into submission, and obscure pure worship. The practioners of this brand of Christianity (who Baloon refers to as the religious right - which we may need a clarification of that term) do not accurately reflect the teachings and methods of Jesus. I'll list what I believe are false doctines of many Christain faiths:

--hellfire ("He77" being a place of torment)
--good people go to heaven, bad people go to to he77
--purgatory
--the trinity
--immortality of the soul
--veneration of Mary to a position of worship
--use of idols to worship God
--involvement in politics to advance a Christian agenda

It's easier to disprove something. So, I don't have to prove the above list is non-bible based. You (everyone who does believe)need to convice me it is. So, if anyone who is a God-fearin', bible-thumpin', praying for my poor lost soul, true believer - who thinks the above list IS a correct and true bible teaching. defend it - prove it to me. Tell me what verses and teachings you personally use to form your opinion that the above cherished doctrines are bible-based.

Baloon said he doesn't care what the bible says and has no faith in the "inspired" nature of the bible. So, as a seperate argument let's address what I feel ARE bible teachings without quoting scriptures - but, using logic and reason to prove their truth. We may want to dabble in the question, "is the bible the word of God." But, that would give credence to Baloon's assertion that it isn't. Again - prove your negaitve. Lets's operate from a standpoint that "IF" the bible is the wod of God it should be easily understood, not have contracictions, accurately teach us God's will and thoughts, and not divide people. I'll ask a believer in the above list to defend their position. I'll take the position of defense for the following list that I believe ARE bible teachings (taken from Baloon's OP):

--Adam and Eve did introduce sin into humanity and all humans are born with sin and the need for forgiveness.
--Adam's children DID marry their siblings and this is not in conflict with God's laws that were in effect at that time.
--A serpent (snake) was used by Satan to communicate with Eve.
--Mary did become pregnant through means other than intercourse
--heaven is a real place where some are rewarded with eternal life
(I think that covers all of the issues from the OP that I want to defend)

Anyone else that thinks this list IS a bible teaching, help me out and make the case. Try to do it with logic and reason and not just quoting scrpitures or reverting to, "I feel sorry for you not having faith in the bible" routine. Many people who don't believe are very comfortable not believing and may cringe at your efforts to "save" them. Why would one want to be saved from comfort and peace?

I'll be tied up til about 10:00 tonight. So, I'm not throwing out a challenge and running. I'll be back - just not for several hours. I wanted to get the ball rolling. And PLEASE - remember - no personal attacks and insults. Let's have an adult conversation and a good-old-fasioned debate and exchange of ideas. I respect other opinions and if they are well-presented and logical I'll change my mind. I learn something new every day and welcome the concept of refining my ideas.

[STYLN]

WOW.....Im really surprised this has stayed civil this long! I hope it continues...Im actually rather intrigued with this thread and what everyone else thinks.

Personally I think my beliefs are pretty closley related to Balloon Knot's...I dont see any reason to go to church EVERY Sunday or @ all 4 that matter. If "God" is everywhere n can always hear our prayers - why do I have to go 2 church every Sunday? I can pray...if I so choose to (remember free will?) perfectly well from bed, drivin down the freeway or walking through the woods with my dog, or while I wait in the elevator goin 2 work. It doesnt matter.

As for Heaven or Hell? Im not so sure I'm entirely convinced of that either. I mean I do believe theres something more than this "life" we're currently living. I think there has 2b sum sort of "soul" or "energy" that never really dies, but simply moves onto something or someone else. I do believe we are all some how connected 2 each other and to this world we inhabit. Maybe its just simply the survival instinct in all of us...I mean generally no one really wants 2 die.

I think one of my strongest beliefs is that Karma's a Bit$h...which sorta coincides with the ole Bible saying of "do unto others as you'd have them do unto you" (or something along those lines). What goes around comes around...usually 10 fold. U laugh @ a friend 4 getting a speeding ticket and then lo and behold you get one a couple days, weeks, months or how ever long after...and its probably gonna b more than the ticket your friend got!

I guess 2 sum it up some how (Im gettin tired of typin) you believe what ever u want and I'll believe what I want...when we're all dead and gone we'll c how it turned out!

[ninja please]

Wow, all the bible thumping going on in this thread makes me wanna

*thunk thunk*


Oops... My karma just ran over your dogma. So sorry


< /hijack >

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[vinnie_dugan]

Heres an interesting question. If I am christian and that is how I lead my life, then shouldn't my politics follow a similar path?

[Balloon Knot]

According to your Bible I am to believe that human kind is sinful because Adam and Eve ate the fruit of knowledge. Why are we being punished for the original sin? After all, they ate the forbidden fruit, we didn’t. Reason would lead one to say it’s their problem, not ours. Even the bible contradicts itself by claiming in Deuteronomy 24:16, “children shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers.”

There are just so many contradictions in the Bible that you have to really question it. Don't turn the other way really look at it and you will see that it is filled with nothing but contradictionsI have also heard from some of these people how they don't want their kids to be taught about homosexuality. Ok fine thats fine thats their choice but again here is the hypocrisy. If the Bible is their moral guide then how can it make crazy statements like this.

Kings 18:27: “...they may eat their own dung and drink their own pisss with you” checkout number 31 where a whole tribe of people, including the elderly and children are slaughtered. The only survivors were the virginal women, who were later raped by the “just and perfect” Moses and his men.

Is that what they want their children learning in church?

Lastly I keep hearing about Jesus. There isn’t one writing outside the Bible in all of ancient history that clearly refers to Jesus of Nazareth. Not 1!! and I'm supposed to worship some deity that there is no proof of? Come on. It's no different from being told there is a Santa Clause. I want proof OUTSIDE the Bible that Jesus was a real person. The Shroud of Turan is hoax so we can't use that as an example.

The same goes for helll. It's a concocted story to instill fear in people and control them. I pose this question to the believers. Why would God condemn us to helll for something as menial as lack of faith? Any true loving being would never condemn his own children to everlasting torment, especially one that proclaims himself to having the very essence of forgiveness.

I could go on all night with this stuff. The Bible simply is trash, lies, and contradictions. Any other book that was put out on any other subject that had all these contradictions would be looked at as a joke BUT since such a book exist and it's called the Bible well then don't knock it.

I didnt outright reject religion at first. I questioned many things because quite truthfully when something doesn't make sense or goes against what I just heard I tend to question it. The deeper you look into christianity/God/Bible the more you will find. I WAS a believer at one time. Believe it or not. I believed because I didnt put much thought into what I was taught. Then one day I began to really think about all this God and Bible business and when I did, questions turned into more questions into more questions. What were the answers I always got? "Thats just the way it is" Sorry but i'm not going to swallow something because "thats just the way it is"

I am VERY open minded about things and don't discredit ANYTHING without throroughly examining it.


Alex mentioned that wars are fought over religion. I could not agree more. I beleive that Christianity was the catalyst for the holocaust.

Think long and hard about what you are being taught/brainwashed.

[Balloon Knot]

Wow, all the bible thumping going on in this thread makes me wanna

*thunk thunk*


Oops... My karma just ran over your dogma. So sorry


< /hijack >

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

I don't care your the one who will go to helll for that.

[Balloon Knot]

Here is some Christian perversion for you. Compliments of Adolf Hitler:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God�s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice� And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." �Adolf Hitler in a speech on 12 April 1922

[golfnut]

Well balloon, I see you're up to same old game again, huh? " Bible is trash. You need proof. It's a joke. Prove Jesus existed to me." You don't ever quit do you? And for the record, just because you examined the Bible and think it's a joke doesn't mean the rest of us are being brainwashed. We just have faith in something you don't. That's ok, balloon. Really. Don't you see that all this rubbish is just a waste of your time? You won't convince any of us "believers" to change our minds just as we won't change yours. Time to come to grips with that truth.

[Jperez18]

Figures someone who feels threatened by what they don't know would lash out like this. Such Ignorant claims to make

[Jperez18]

Here is some Christian perversion for you. Compliments of Adolf Hitler:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God�s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice� And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." �Adolf Hitler in a speech on 12 April 1922

Holy crap...that sounds like Barack Hussein Obama speaking!!

[Balloon Knot]

Golfnut I have layed out before you a very good arguement as to the all the contradictions that are present in Christianity and yet you have not addressed any of them.

What I say is simple logic. 2 plus 2 =4

Only thing you present is faith? Faith is blindly believing in a concept.

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[golfnut]

Balloon, you have indeed. I still hold true to my faith, however, you have definitely presented a well constructed position. If you'd just tone down the insults a little, you might get the answers you seek. I think you and I have come a long way and with that, I'll move on. Good luck, Balloon. Your thread is a success. Keep it going.

[Balloon Knot]

You have my word I will tone down my passion for this subject.

I do welcome your thoughts and as you know I started this thread because of the sometimes heated ( on my part ) dialogue we opened on a different thread.

I apologize golf. You are correct I should refrain from being insulting to you and the Bible. I can make my points without coming across as a bully.

Again my sincerest apologies.

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[CipherDias]

Discussions on religion OR politics usually end with a locked thread pretty fast on forums!!

[JustPlainJef]

Do I hate those who choose to participate in it? NOPE! I do however pray for them that they too will one day know the Lord Jesus Christ as the savior.

What about the homosexuals that have found Jesus?

[CipherDias]

aaaannndd I sense an impending LOCK on this thread soon, VERY soon!

[Balloon Knot]

Either post on the subject cipher or move along. Thanks.

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[prometheus]

Heres an interesting question. If I am christian and that is how I lead my life, then shouldn't my politics follow a similar path?

Jesus told Pilate � �My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is my kingdom is not from this source.� Don�t you think fighting to protect Jesus himself is a bit more important than banning gay marriage, abortion, and any other cause the religious right get passionate about? If Jesus praised his followers for not getting involved in politics back then why would you think that being his follower today compels you to be involved in social issues? Perhaps the stronger motivator is your desire to be involved in politics rather than to follow the pattern Jesus left. Jesus NEVER commanded, hinted, or insinuated that his followers should try to effect change on the world scene through involvement in politics. If someone reasons that their Christian conscience leads them to a path of political involvement � they are mistaken. A bible-trained conscience, a knowledge of the life course of Jesus, and familiarity with the teachings and personality of Jesus dictate neutrality in political affairs and no involvement.

[vinnie_dugan]

Alex1, what better way to reach out to millions of people than politics?

[Balloon Knot]

Vinnie your missing the point most people do not want to be "reached out to"

Christianity has no place in politics at all. All religions have no place in politics for that matter.

That is the delusion of the religious right that they need to reach out to the massesand that the masses want to hear it. I think its pretty clear from most replies here that my statement is in fact true. .

That is my biggest problem

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[prometheus]

Alex1, what better way to reach out to millions of people than politics?

Who do you think had a bigger "reach" and a more positive effect on humanity: Jesus by preaching about God's kingdom and staying out of the social issues of his day or any president, governor, king, general, or sentaor in the history of mankind?

If your desire is to "reach out" and talk to as many people as possible about what's important to you - then by all means, get involved in politcs. But, that involvement should not be under the banner of "christianity".

Jesus did not get involved in politics. He preached that his followers should be "no part of the world". James wrote, "friendship with the world is enmity with God. Therefore whoever wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God."

A desire to change the world for the better is admirable and commendable. However, baloon's original point (that I agree with) is that someone who claims to be Christian should not use that title as a means to push their agenda forward. And it it reprehensible when someone uses their Christian faith to condemn and judge others or try to enact social reform. A Christian's only commission is to preach and teach - not to try to better the world thru the arena of politcs. Jesus stayed out of it and anyone who attempts to arrogantly take the title "Christian" to give their personal politics some sort of credence misses the point of what the term "Christian" means - like Christ. If Jesus stayed out of politics why would someone involved in politics say they are "like Christ"?