[gregerator]

I knew about the moromon bit. And test it's a whole belief system tithe. Everyone gets their income audited for the tithe. And yes I also know that tithe literally means tenth yet I use it in a general but accepted English variation of church giving. Now for the big one. The reason I generally attend a church that has a policy of using pans handed down the pews to collect offerings (a better word for our discussion perhaps). Reason one, the congregation. While you will find people who attend that church who just go and don't serve don't associate with anyone etc, the majority of the congregation is an amazing group of people. There are countless people or families I could call whenever need be for favors, help, just talking etc. Reason 2. There are no perfect churches. While I may respect certain aspects of other churches (although being in Oregon makes it hard to attend mars hill as it is in Michigan) I also know that there will be other aspects I don't agree with. So in a sense it's the Better of several choices for me. There tend to be more things I agree with that not. As CS Lewis wrote in mere christianty, in the preface, "in plain language, the question should never be: ' Do I like that kind of service?' But 'are these doctrines true: is thee holiness here?". The music may not be my favorite, the standard aisles of pews facing a stage may not be *my* preferred seating, but service is not about me. Service is about a group of like minded believers coming together, interacting with one another, sharing joys and sorrows, praising God for His goodness and learning from His Word. If I make the church internal politics and little things of the church a major issue, I should relook at myself. I believe that it *all* belongs to God. Money, car computer, any and all of it. And I do my best to use it as such. You will recall that Jesus scorned the Pharisees for making sure their tithe was right but neglecting the better things, widows and orphans. I don't wanna be that guy.

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[gregerator]

To more directly answer the question, I don't find their method "improper", I just think there's a better way to do it. I'm not big on the, "that's how it's always been done" excuse. It does have an opportunity to create judgement within the walls. "Did you see how much Greg put in? Bob didn't give anything." etc. But until I get my way that's just how it will be.

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[xxxxpradaxxxx]

Is "Buying" Your Way to Heaven still a Viable Option?

Or Were All My Donations Made in Vain?

[gregerator]

^ there's so much sarcasm in that post it may drip onto mine! . Unfortunately as the story goes, the young rich man asked Jesus, what must I do to get into heaven? Jesus tells him some basic Jewish laws to follow and the man says, all this I have done to which Jesus replies: go and sell your things and give to the poor. Then come and follow me. "it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven". Now kingdom of heaven doesn't seem to mean this far off place of angels and harps. Rather Jesus is saying, people who have that much will trust in what they have rather than trusting in God. And secondly, there were 3 people who had their lives taken from them in an instant. 2 were ananias and sapphira. They sold some land they owned and held back a portion of the profits then lied about it. Their greed killed them. The other was the rich fool. He had filled his barns and didn't know what to do with the rest of his crop. He thought to himself I'll year down my barns and build bigger ones. Then I will say to myself, you have plenty of good things stored up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink, and be merry. And he died that very night. There's a saying, there's no trailer on the hearse. I.e. You can't take it with you. Greed is idolatry. Again, putting trust in something other than God. So I'm gonna say no, you can't buy your way in cause Jesus already paid the fare. You just have to accept the ticket.

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[gregerator]

Oh, and it's the heart behind the giving. Giving *to* get into heaven is selfish. Giving to help someone without expectation of return, that's selfless.

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[serenityseeker]

I believe there are many different "tickets" that enable souls to reach their destination or fulfilment. Again, its about tolerance.

[gregerator]

Freedom of religion and freedom FROM religion.

This is exactly what the idea of America was. People were tired of this political church governing. The reason they moved away was to get away from religion being involved in government. The two do need to be separate. For anyone interested there is a *great* book on this idea called Myth Of A Christian Nation. By Dr. Gregory Boyd. Worth more than one read.

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[prometheus]

Theres's another great book that can be read that discusses the need to keep politics and Christianity seperate.. it's called the bible. It's an old book, but it's not out of print yet. It was written by God and has great information on this subject particularly when one of the charcters (who happens to be the author's son, a guy named Jesus) well, he was talking about the kingdom of God that is promised to make the entire earth a paradise and he mentioned that it was "no part of this world". That seems pretty clear to me that involvement in politics and support of any human rulership or political party are diametrically opposed. That book might even be worth a second read.

[luvitlo]

Is "Buying" Your Way to Heaven still a Viable Option?

Or Were All My Donations Made in Vain?

I know I said I wouldn't post here again but just to clarify no one can buy their way into heaven and if you believe all the Bible as you should or you blieve a lie... You must pay the tithe and offering.... Tithe is 10% offering :5% if you don't give you steal from God.... If you pay and fuss and complain about it you gave in vain if it not in your heart to give graciously to the Lord then you are not in the right attitude to give.

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[prometheus]

I know I said I wouldn't post here again but just to clarify no one can buy their way into heaven and if you believe all the Bible as you should or you blieve a lie... You must pay the tithe and offering.... Tithe is 10% offering :5% if you don't give you steal from God.... If you pay and fuss and complain about it you gave in vain if it not in your heart to give graciously to the Lord then you are not in the right attitude to give.

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Dude, Go back to school and learn how to form frickin' form a coherent sentence.... I read your post like 10 times and I'm still scratching my head saying, "WTF??" AND - even if anyone understood your incoherent rambling, they'd still need to deal with the spelling and punctuation errors.

I think your point was supposed to be that there is some sort of compulsion or obligation for a Christian to give a percentage of their income. To quote you:

"You must pay the tithe and offering.... Tithe is 10% offering :5%"

So... that means 15% of one's income is to given to God? Exactly where did you receive that mandate? Let me guess, your pastor? AND... Exactly how does one give any cash to to a spirit (God is a spirit)? Let me guess, you're pastor's just gonna "hold" it for him, right?

I don't know about you, but my God doesn't need my money. If any contribution, offering, donation, or whatever you call it is given by a Christian - it is given to a church or a member of the clergy. Let's be very clear on this. God doesn't get a penny. He doesn't need it. Churches need money to operate. Paid clergy need money to operate. If you're giving - don't delude yourself, God don't have a bank account. I hate to break it to ya' and ruin your day and all but that money's going in to a person's pocket.

Now, if your affiliation with a church leads you to a feeling of charity and a desire to support the church financially - go for it (I do). If you appreciate the instruction you receive from a pastor and wish to support him financially, go for it.

But do NOT try to imply that a Christian has some sort of OBLIGATION to audit their finances and pay any percentage and failure to do so is failure to meet Christian obligations. If that 's what you've been taught, then fine - do what you want. But, know this: it is not a Christian biblical teaching.

[serenityseeker]

I know I said I wouldn't post here again but just to clarify no one can buy their way into heaven and if you believe all the Bible as you should or you blieve a lie... You must pay the tithe and offering.... Tithe is 10% offering :5% if you don't give you steal from God.... If you pay and fuss and complain about it you gave in vain if it not in your heart to give graciously to the Lord then you are not in the right attitude to give.

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Give me a freakin break. U have the unmitigated gall to say that if people don't believe the bible they believe a lie. Get real. It is a collection of stories from different authors from different centuries. Some books left out and others added. Laguages changed and things lost or gained in translation. Things changed immensley for political power and gain.
If u subscribe to it and it is your spiritual guide so be it, but dont be so obtuse as to comdemn those that choose another guide for their spiritual life.
That is awash in ignorance and intolerance and robs you of any credibility.

[gregerator]

@ Alex. As far as separation of church and politics coming from the bible, I entirely agree. The hard part is A) getting the religious right and some others to read the bible in that context, and B) getting others to even read the bible at all. That's why I brought up Boyd's book. I admit for a long time I fell into the camp of "my Christian views are correct and everyone should follow them by law.". No longer. That whole lesson on choices killed that idea.

A Merry Christmas to you all!

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[cerealberry]

@ Alex. As far as separation of church and politics coming from the bible, I entirely agree. The hard part is A) getting the religious right and some others to read the bible in that context, and B) getting others to even read the bible at all.

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What makes your book the "book to be read"... Have you made the effort to read others religious handbooks? The talmud? Koran? Why is it that you are so ego-centric to believe that yours is the only one filled with truth and guidance?

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[serenityseeker]

What makes your book the "book to be read"... Have you made the effort to read others religious handbooks? The talmud? Koran? Why is it that you are so ego-centric to believe that yours is the only one filled with truth and guidance?

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Superb question, though I seriously doubt you will get any type of truly thought provoking answer. The sheer audacity of anyone condemning others that don't subscribe to their religous pathway is truly grotesque. Spirituality is far different from, though not mutually exclusive of religion. To assume that you know the only true path, that the wonderful giving and compassionate souls of those that choose a different path to communicate with God are somehow inferior or "lost" is the horrid behavoir that the OP was refering to.
Intolerance suggests a true sickness of the mind and soul.

[gregerator]

Generally speaking your "mainstream religions" all claim to be "the way" to heaven, nirvana, or whatever. So those millions of humans who believe in those systems all claim to have "the way". My ability to state the reasons for the Truth of the God of the Hebrews is sadly poor. I'm sure Alex will be quite a bit more adept at the apologetics. I can say that the old testament and the new have yet to be proven untrue in geography and geneology. In fact it has proven true more and more as archeologists continue to dig. Agreed from the outside it sounds incredible. The idea that this Being made everything. That He became Human to die and cover our ineptitude. That He came back from the dead and ascended to sit a God's right hand. It's a strange story indeed. Stranger than fiction some might say. But with research and an open mind and heart it becomes quite clear that it is all True. I'm quite curious, to any who don't hold a faith of any kind, what is the point of life? Why exist? I know it's "the question of the ages" but it's certainly worth asking. Certainly there must be a reason. And it can't be about me. That makes no sense. It can't be about collecting stuff or wealth for that won't go with you. And a legacy is often soon forgotten. Those who do have a legacy have often done great things for others. Mother Theresa. Abraham Lincoln. I'm not saying doing good things is what life is about, I'm merely stating that those are the people that get remembered. If you are truly interested as to why the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth might be right and True, read C S Lewis' Mere Christianity. It is a wonderful look at life. A former atheist who did his research. And an amazing author.

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[Apollo_Creed]

I have drank me some Miller Lite and CIROC and I still don't understand some of these posts. He11 no I'm not giving any money to a bunch of crooks whose only job is to sell hope to people that don't understand and want to be saved!! Some of you here need to get a life and do research for yourselves instead of letting MAN tell you what you should do. No I DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE SO-CALLED HOLY BIBLE as it is written today. Jesus was a man just like the rest of us guys and YEAH HE DID HAVE SEX!!! Some of you need to really WAKE UP!!!

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[serenityseeker]

Generally speaking your "mainstream religions" all claim to be "the way" to heaven, nirvana, or whatever. So those millions of humans who believe in those systems all claim to have "the way". My ability to state the reasons for the Truth of the God of the Hebrews is sadly poor. I'm sure Alex will be quite a bit more adept at the apologetics. I can say that the old testament and the new have yet to be proven untrue in geography and geneology. In fact it has proven true more and more as archeologists continue to dig. Agreed from the outside it sounds incredible. The idea that this Being made everything. That He became Human to die and cover our ineptitude. That He came back from the dead and ascended to sit a God's right hand. It's a strange story indeed. Stranger than fiction some might say. But with research and an open mind and heart it becomes quite clear that it is all True. I'm quite curious, to any who don't hold a faith of any kind, what is the point of life? Why exist? I know it's "the question of the ages" but it's certainly worth asking. Certainly there must be a reason. And it can't be about me. That makes no sense. It can't be about collecting stuff or wealth for that won't go with you. And a legacy is often soon forgotten. Those who do have a legacy have often done great things for others. Mother Theresa. Abraham Lincoln. I'm not saying doing good things is what life is about, I'm merely stating that those are the people that get remembered. If you are truly interested as to why the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth might be right and True, read C S Lewis' Mere Christianity. It is a wonderful look at life. A former atheist who did his research. And an amazing author.

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A lot of references to "research" but not a lot of meat here. And research shows that Jesus "became" a human being, "came back from the dead" and "ascended to to sit at God's right (not left?) hand?? I am not aware of any credible that research that could ever show those things. To have faith in those things is plausible for the individual, but certainly to claim they are "proven" and thereby assume they are the "real truth" and the only way is simply untrue.
As far as geographical and genealogical evidence...the same can be said of the Koran...in fact...probably even with with a greater degree of certainy. The Tora would also hold up to the same litmus test...probably with more historical evidence.
As to whether the teachings of "Jesus of Nazereth" are true...who is to say? It is a matter of faith. The truisms of "his" teaching run through most religious texts, even those written well prior to his time and in no way "affiliated" with christianity.
Not subscribing to a text whose origins are documented to have been changed and influenced in a number of ways does not make one an atheist, nor does it preclude them of holding "any faith of any kind". That notion is elitist at the very minimum.
The point, that was so adeptly avoided, is that calling one single pathway the only truth is one's choice, but condemning other paths to God is intolerant and short sighted. This is the type of thing I think that the OP was refering to, and something that is a mainstay of the "religous right", and for that matter other religions..or more accurately of the zealots within a relgion.

[gregerator]

Then Jesus is an intolerant Being for He said He is the way. While I believe Him I still believe in the right for others to choose to believe in whatever they want. That's where my tolerance comes in. I don't believe abortion is right or good, but I believe people have their right to choose. I don't believe other belief systems are right but I believe people have their right to choose. I think what the OP was getting at, and I agree, is that there are people under the guise of Christianity, who are wanting to make Christian ideals, morals and truths into law. Can't be done. For crying out loud, God gave the people 10 commandments and before you could blink they broke the first one. We just aren't good at following rules. I drive faster than the posted speed limits. The idea is that all of God's desires for us, His rules for us so to speak, are for our own good. Much like Parents lay down rules for the safety of their children. And all the "rules" are tied together so that if you break one, you might as well have broken any or all of them. And once it is broken, then there is a chasm between man and God that God doesn't want. In comes Jesus. He lives a life "pleasing to God" and pays the price of sacrifice so God and man may be reconciled. I'm tired of the term Saved. And Christian for that matter. They have been perverted and lost their meaning. In the end, I choose to live as Jesus did. To love those around me no matter their beliefs, choices, etc. The people I do have something against are those who are the Religious Right. Who want to somehow try to Force American citizens to follow their code of laws. It won't work. And it's not "Christian". My only point in mentioning other books is that there are other people who also believe these ideas. They have better ways of writing it down than I do. They explain things better. Although C S Lewis is a hard read due to his style of English from the olden days. This has been a long, beautiful conversation. Alex, thank you for your work and input! While you might not celebrate December 25th I do know that you, as I, are grateful for a baby born in a stable in Bethlehem. I leave this thread with prayers for all of you! May God bless us, every one.

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[serenityseeker]

I have drank me some Miller Lite and CIROC and I still don't understand some of these posts. He11 no I'm not giving any money to a bunch of crooks whose only job is to sell hope to people that don't understand and want to be saved!! Some of you here need to get a life and do research for yourselves instead of letting MAN tell you what you should do. No I DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE SO-CALLED HOLY BIBLE as it is written today. Jesus was a man just like the rest of us guys and YEAH HE DID HAVE SEX!!! Some of you need to really WAKE UP!!!

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Now THAT'S some funny stuff! Lots of truth there for sure, but made me chuckle. I like ur style Apollo.

[prometheus]

I'm not out of this. I've just had to pay some bills and actually work. I'll look closer at thia tomorrow and make some posts and replies. Thanks for the continued interest

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[prometheus]

What makes your book the "book to be read"... Have you made the effort to read others religious handbooks? The talmud? Koran? Why is it that you are so ego-centric to believe that yours is the only one filled with truth and guidance?

Great question, and I�m not the only one who thought so�.

Superb question, though I seriously doubt you will get any type of truly thought provoking answer. The sheer audacity of anyone condemning others that don't subscribe to their religious pathway is truly grotesque. Spirituality is far different from, though not mutually exclusive of religion. To assume that you know the only true path, that the wonderful giving and compassionate souls of those that choose a different path to communicate with God are somehow inferior or "lost" is the horrid behavoir that the OP was refering to.
Intolerance suggests a true sickness of the mind and soul.

Yes, I agree. It is wrong to see those who disagree as �condemned� or �wrong�. To do so by me or Greg, or anyone, is improper � and I don�t think that�s what he (greg) was trying to say. You bring up a good question � when one is convinced of the authority of the bible, have they done similar readings into other texts to �find� the truth in the bible?

Let�s establish 2 classes of people:

1 � If I�ve only had vanilla and it tastes great to me, what do I care what chocolate tastes like?
2 � If I�ve never had chocolate and stick only with vanilla, I might be missing out on something even better.

I think you�re saying that the religious right is firmly in class 1. They were raised in a Christian house, went to church on Sunday, gave money at the offerings and never bothered to ask themselves, �Is this the right religion for me?� Yet, they condemn those who either: A) aren�t Christian OR B) practice Christianity in a way in which they disagree. This is stupid.

I think you�re (you being cerealberry & serenityseeker, I think) saying that you find yourself in class 2 � there might be something better out there, so you�re gonna keep looking. And if chocolate was tasty, how about caramel?, or fudge ripple?, or�. You want to keep looking and feel that to tie yourself down to one book or religion or church stifles your spirituality and personal growth. I applaud your efforts and wish you great success on finding fulfillment in your search.

Personally, I have NOT thoroughly read either of the texts you referenced (Talmud, Koran) I�ve read excerpts and overviews and spoken with those who do follow the faiths of those texts and asked them to explain how the text or faith explains the existence of God or offers a reliable hope for the future. I also looked at Atheism as a pathway to find spiritual fulfillment, looked at Buddhism, and other Eastern religions, even the concepts of Wicca, and Native American theology. In my opinion� they all fell short. I�m personally in the camp of �vanilla works for me � I had a taste of other flavors and think I�ll stick with vanilla.� Granted, my �taste� was very limited and may have been tainted by a poor teacher, but my thorough reading of the bible � NOT the teachings of mainstream churches � led me to conclude, �enough searching, I found what I want.� I do think however, that the majority of �Christians� have not been exposed to ideas other than what they�ve heard from parents & pulpit and that accounts for the bigotry and narrow-mindedness that infuriated the OP and is not part of the biblical teachings but a byproduct of religion (specifically American Christian religions).

�.I seriously doubt you will get any type of truly thought provoking answer�

Hopefully, this will stimulate some thought�My spirituality is not a journey � it�s knowing when I�ve found something worth doing then trying to do it. It�s not the journey that matters to me � it�s the destination. If you continually search and never find � that�s not searching, that�s lost. If someone is lost they may need a map. I found my map � the bible.

Generally speaking your "mainstream religions" all claim to be "the way" to heaven, nirvana, or whatever. So those millions of humans who believe in those systems all claim to have "the way". My ability to state the reasons for the Truth of the God of the Hebrews is sadly poor. I'm sure Alex will be quite a bit more adept at the apologetics.

I had to look that up. Definition of apologetics: (from some web site � I just googled �define apologetics�):
�A rational defense for the existence of God. This branch of theology emerged in the modern period as a consequence of the changes approaches to proving God existed. Both reason and scientific evidence were used to provide evidences for this rational defense of faith or belief in God.�

Ok, here goes�
How would I make a �rational defense for the existence of God�? Look around you. That simplifies it too drastically. Let me expound�

If you were walking through the desert and saw a house that was beautifully designed and built and had food in the cupboards, air conditioner, heater, plumbing, etc. would you conclude, �I guess this just got here by random chance.�? Of course not, you�d know that SOMEONE designed and built the home. If we look through the vast space that Earth resides in that�s like the desert � yet the Earth is beautifully constructed to support life and give it comfort � much like that home found in the middle of the desert. To deny the existence of a designer and creator would be just as insane as seeing a constructed home and saying, �I guess it just happened by chance.� That�s not an original thought � it�s from Hebrews 3:4 �For every house is built by somebody, but the builder and furnisher of the universe is God.� And Romans 1:20 (paraphrased) God is clearly seen through his creations. It is inexcusable.

Hope that works � you painted me into a corner there greg.

I can say that the old testament and the new have yet to be proven untrue in geography and geneology. In fact it has proven true more and more as archeologists continue to dig.

A lot of references to "research" but not a lot of meat here�.As far as geographical and genealogical evidence...the same can be said of the Koran...in fact...probably even with a greater degree of certainy. The Tora would also hold up to the same litmus test...probably with more historical evidence.

Don�t know about archaeological evidence to support or disprove any other texts. But, regarding archaeology to support the bible:

There are 47 monarchs and rulers that are mentioned in the bible that were not mentioned in any other ancient texts known to exist prior to the 19th century. Bible critics dismissed these monarchs and rulers as myths since they were only mentioned in the bible � however, during the 19th and 20th century, burial mounds, annalistic tablets, boundary markers, and building inscriptions have systematically proved their existence. Among some of these monarchs and rulers were: Pontius Pilate and Belshazzar.

See page 54 of The Bible and Archaeology, by Sir Frederic Kenyon

Moses mentioned wine being drank by the ancient Egyptians and some historians said this was wrong, the ancient Egyptians did not cultivate grapes or drink wine. But now archaeologists have found among the frescoes that decorate the tombs of Egyptian antiquity some that picture the Egyptians caring for the vines, gathering the grapes, pressing out the juice and storing it in stone or clay jars and skin bottles.

The tower of Babel was only mentioned in the bible and was dismissed as inaccurate or fabrication. However, in the 20th century towers have been unearthed in this area.

Daniel tells a story of 3 faithful Hebrews burned in a furnace for refusal to worship Chaldean idols. Historians said such things were not done. However, excavators at Babylon found what they thought at first to be a brick kiln, until they read the inscription on its base: �This is the place of burning where men who blasphemed the gods of Chaldea died by fire.�

Daniel also tells a story of how he was thrown into a lion�s pit because a failure to comply with the king�s orders. Historians said that there is no evidence that such type of punishment was practiced. However, excavators revealed a deep pit having this inscription: �The place of execution where men who angered the king died torn by wild beasts.�

For confirmation of this, see the book, Diggers for Facts, by J. O. Kinnaman Pages 138-141 and Dead Men Tell Tales, by Dr Harry Rimmer, pages 325-327.

A few quotes:
�I do not think it will be long possible, even if it is now possible, for us to deny the remarkable accuracy of detail in the narratives of the Old Testament. Incidents hitherto regarded as legend, have been proved historical by recent discovery. . . . There is actual history at the back of all of the narratives.�
-- Accuracy of Old Testament in Light of Recent Palestinian Archaeology, by J. Garrow Duncan

�No major contention of Scripture has been proved unhistorical.�
-- Archaeology and Israel, by W. F. Albright.

�Archaeology contains irrefutable proofs of Biblical statements. Detailed accounts of almost innumerable discoveries dug up by pick and spade from ancient tombs and buried cities in Bible lands ably support the Scriptures.�
-- Archaeology and the Bible, by George A. Barton.

�During the last ten years the science of Biblical archaeology has shown Bible criticism to be unsound in its premise and wrong in its conclusions�
-- Fresh Evidence About Old Testament, by Sir Charles Marston.

�I was brought up a �Higher Critic�, and consequently disbelieved in the actual truth of the early narratives of the Bible. Since then I have deciphered thousands of tablets, and the more I learn, the more I believe the Bible to be true.��
--New Discoveries in Babylonia About Genesis, page 140.

A lot of references to "research" but not a lot of meat here

I hope this is the sort of �meat� you were looking for. If so, chew on that for a while. If not, then I don�t really know what would suffice for you.

Some of you here need to get a life and do research for yourselves instead of letting MAN tell you what you should do. No I DO NOT BELIEVE IN THE SO-CALLED HOLY BIBLE as it is written today. Jesus was a man just like the rest of us guys and YEAH HE DID HAVE SEX!!! Some of you need to really WAKE UP!!!

Ok, I�m wide awake�but, I�m just not following you here. Don�t make inflammatory remarks that appear to based on your own observations and viewpoints and present them as fact. How exactly do you arrive at the conclusion that Jesus engaged in sexual relations? Please support this statement.

Are you elevating yourself or lower Jesus to claim he was �just like the rest of us guys�? By saying this you�re either elevating yourself or lowering him � which is it? The bible presents him as God�s son, perfect, and sinless. I�m interested - are you perfect and sinless? OR Do you say that Jesus is imperfect, and not God�s son?

I think by your statement that you �don�t believe the so-called holy bible� you would be of the opinion that Jesus was NOT God�s son and didn�t exist. OK, let�s give you that (for the sake of argument) � so, then you�d deny his existence. You certainly exist. Some mythological figure didn�t make a post and call themselves Apollo Creed. So, Apollo, how does that make him �like the rest of us guys.�? Am I also a mythological figure that doesn�t actually exist?

You don�t believe in the bible �as it is written today� � well, what other bible are you referencing? The one written in 1282 when Jesus was a regular guy having sex? I�m not familiar with that one. (tone was sarcasm)

Jesus "became" a human being, "came back from the dead" and "ascended to to sit at God's right (not left?) hand??

The right hand is referred to many times in the bible as a position of prominence or excellence. It is symbolic. We get the modern day phrase referring to a person who is honored or irreplaceable as being �my right hand man�. Even today in Palestine and many other Eastern societies the left hand is reserved for bodily functions and considered unclean and not used for eating or greeting. Thus the practice of shaking hands with the right hand and waving with the right hand.

[serenityseeker]

Great question, and I�m not the only one who thought so�.



Yes, I agree. It is wrong to see those who disagree as �condemned� or �wrong�. To do so by me or Greg, or anyone, is improper � and I don�t think that�s what he (greg) was trying to say. You bring up a good question � when one is convinced of the authority of the bible, have they done similar readings into other texts to �find� the truth in the bible?

Let�s establish 2 classes of people:

1 � If I�ve only had vanilla and it tastes great to me, what do I care what chocolate tastes like?
2 � If I�ve never had chocolate and stick only with vanilla, I might be missing out on something even better.

I think you�re saying that the religious right is firmly in class 1. They were raised in a Christian house, went to church on Sunday, gave money at the offerings and never bothered to ask themselves, �Is this the right religion for me?� Yet, they condemn those who either: A) aren�t Christian OR B) practice Christianity in a way in which they disagree. This is stupid.

I think you�re (you being cerealberry & serenityseeker, I think) saying that you find yourself in class 2 � there might be something better out there, so you�re gonna keep looking. And if chocolate was tasty, how about caramel?, or fudge ripple?, or�. You want to keep looking and feel that to tie yourself down to one book or religion or church stifles your spirituality and personal growth. I applaud your efforts and wish you great success on finding fulfillment in your search.

Personally, I have NOT thoroughly read either of the texts you referenced (Talmud, Koran) I�ve read excerpts and overviews and spoken with those who do follow the faiths of those texts and asked them to explain how the text or faith explains the existence of God or offers a reliable hope for the future. I also looked at Atheism as a pathway to find spiritual fulfillment, looked at Buddhism, and other Eastern religions, even the concepts of Wicca, and Native American theology. In my opinion� they all fell short. I�m personally in the camp of �vanilla works for me � I had a taste of other flavors and think I�ll stick with vanilla.� Granted, my �taste� was very limited and may have been tainted by a poor teacher, but my thorough reading of the bible � NOT the teachings of mainstream churches � led me to conclude, �enough searching, I found what I want.� I do think however, that the majority of �Christians� have not been exposed to ideas other than what they�ve heard from parents & pulpit and that accounts for the bigotry and narrow-mindedness that infuriated the OP and is not part of the biblical teachings but a byproduct of religion (specifically American Christian religions).


Hopefully, this will stimulate some thought

�My spirituality is not a journey � it�s knowing when I�ve found something worth doing then trying to do it. It�s not the journey that matters to me � it�s the destination. If you continually search and never find � that�s not searching, that�s lost. If someone is lost they may need a map. I found my map � the bible.

I had to look that up. Definition of apologetics: (from some web site � I just googled �define apologetics�):
�A rational defense for the existence of God. This branch of theology emerged in the modern period as a consequence of the changes approaches to proving God existed. Both reason and scientific evidence were used to provide evidences for this rational defense of faith or belief in God.�

Ok, here goes�
How would I make a �rational defense for the existence of God�? Look around you. That simplifies it too drastically. Let me expound�

If you were walking through the desert and saw a house that was beautifully designed and built and had food in the cupboards, air conditioner, heater, plumbing, etc. would you conclude, �I guess this just got here by random chance.�? Of course not, you�d know that SOMEONE designed and built the home. If we look through the vast space that Earth resides in that�s like the desert � yet the Earth is beautifully constructed to support life and give it comfort � much like that home found in the middle of the desert. To deny the existence of a designer and creator would be just as insane as seeing a constructed home and saying, �I guess it just happened by chance.� That�s not an original thought � it�s from Hebrews 3:4 �For every house is built by somebody, but the builder and furnisher of the universe is God.� And Romans 1:20 (paraphrased) God is clearly seen through his creations. It is inexcusable.

Hope that works � you painted me into a corner there greg.





Don�t know about archaeological evidence to support or disprove any other texts. But, regarding archaeology to support the bible:

There are 47 monarchs and rulers that are mentioned in the bible that were not mentioned in any other ancient texts known to exist prior to the 19th century. Bible critics dismissed these monarchs and rulers as myths since they were only mentioned in the bible � however, during the 19th and 20th century, burial mounds, annalistic tablets, boundary markers, and building inscriptions have systematically proved their existence. Among some of these monarchs and rulers were: Pontius Pilate and Belshazzar.

See page 54 of The Bible and Archaeology, by Sir Frederic Kenyon

Moses mentioned wine being drank by the ancient Egyptians and some historians said this was wrong, the ancient Egyptians did not cultivate grapes or drink wine.

But now archaeologists have found

among the frescoes that decorate the tombs of Egyptian antiquity some that picture the Egyptians caring for the vines, gathering the grapes, pressing out the juice and storing it in stone or clay jars and skin bottles.

The tower of Babel was only mentioned in the bible and was dismissed as inaccurate or fabrication.

However, in the 20th century towers have been unearthed in this area.

Daniel tells a story of 3 faithful Hebrews burned in a furnace for refusal to worship Chaldean idols. Historians said such things were not done. However, excavators at Babylon found what they thought at first to be a brick kiln, until they read the inscription on its base:

�This is the place of burning where men who blasphemed the gods of Chaldea died by fire.�

Daniel also tells a story of how he was thrown into a lion�s pit because a failure to comply with the king�s orders. Historians said that there is no evidence that such type of punishment was practiced. However, excavators revealed a deep pit having this inscription:

�The place of execution where men who angered the king died torn by wild beasts.�

For confirmation of this, see the book, Diggers for Facts, by J. O. Kinnaman Pages 138-141 and Dead Men Tell Tales, by Dr Harry Rimmer, pages 325-327.

A few quotes:
�I do not think it will be long possible, even if it is now possible, for us to deny the remarkable accuracy of detail in the narratives of the Old Testament. Incidents hitherto regarded as legend, have been proved historical by recent discovery. . . . There is actual history at the back of all of the narratives.�
-- Accuracy of Old Testament in Light of Recent Palestinian Archaeology, by J. Garrow Duncan

�No major contention of Scripture has been proved unhistorical.�

-- Archaeology and Israel, by W. F. Albright.

�Archaeology contains irrefutable proofs of Biblical statements. Detailed accounts of almost innumerable discoveries dug up by pick and spade from ancient tombs and buried cities in Bible lands ably support the Scriptures.�
-- Archaeology and the Bible, by George A. Barton.

�During the last ten years the science of Biblical archaeology has shown Bible criticism to be unsound in its premise and wrong in its conclusions�
-- Fresh Evidence About Old Testament, by Sir Charles Marston.

�I was brought up a �Higher Critic�, and consequently disbelieved in the actual truth of the early narratives of the Bible. Since then I have deciphered thousands of tablets, and the more I learn, the more I believe the Bible to be true.��
--New Discoveries in Babylonia About Genesis, page 140.

I hope this is the sort of �meat� you were looking for. If so, chew on that for a while. If not, then I don�t really know what would suffice for you.

Ok, I�m wide awake�but, I�m just not following you here. Don�t make inflammatory remarks that appear to based on your own observations and viewpoints and present them as fact. How exactly do you arrive at the conclusion that Jesus engaged in sexual relations? Please support this statement.

Are you elevating yourself or lower Jesus to claim he was �just like the rest of us guys�? By saying this you�re either elevating yourself or lowering him � which is it? The bible presents him as God�s son, perfect, and sinless. I�m interested - are you perfect and sinless? OR Do you say that Jesus is imperfect, and not God�s son?

I think by your statement that you �don�t believe the so-called holy bible� you would be of the opinion that Jesus was NOT God�s son and didn�t exist. OK, let�s give you that (for the sake of argument) � so, then you�d deny his existence. You certainly exist. Some mythological figure didn�t make a post and call themselves Apollo Creed. So, Apollo, how does that make him �like the rest of us guys.�? Am I also a mythological figure that doesn�t actually exist?

You don�t believe in the bible �as it is written today� � well, what other bible are you referencing? The one written in 1282 when Jesus was a regular guy having sex? I�m not familiar with that one. (tone was sarcasm)

The right hand is referred to many times in the bible as a position of prominence or excellence. It is symbolic. We get the modern day phrase referring to a person who is honored or irreplaceable as being �my right hand man�. Even today in Palestine and many other Eastern societies the left hand is reserved for bodily functions and considered unclean and not used for eating or greeting. Thus the practice of shaking hands with the right hand and waving with the right hand.

Your comments are at times, in my humble opinion, thoughtful and tolerant, and at others a bit obtuse and rather one sided.
Hopefully, this will stimulate some thought

�My spirituality is not a journey � it�s knowing when I�ve found something worth doing then trying to do it. It�s not the journey that matters to me � it�s the destination. If you continually search and never find � that�s not searching, that�s lost. If someone is lost they may need a map. I found my map � the bible.

---Well my sprituality is a journey, one that I relish and am thankful for each day. The "journey" is my "destination"; learning, awakening, evolving and garnering more understanding and spiritual communication is my daily gift. If I didn't need to do this I would have reached some state of nirvana or diety like status. So that does NOT make me lost despite such a narrowly viewed pronouncement. This is exactly the kind of thing that shows such unmitigated gall and arrogance. Your map may indeed be the bible. Most of humanity have discovered other maps that guide them to God awareness, and I refuse to believe that these multitudes of kind and loving souls are in any way deficient because there map to the same destination...striving to connect spiritually..is different.

But now archaeologists have found

...this really isnt proof...credible research and sources?

However, in the 20th century towers have been unearthed in this area.

...thats nice...but again..documented proof?

�This is the place of burning where men who blasphemed the gods of Chaldea died by fire.�

....again..nice but proof?

�The place of execution where men who angered the king died torn by wild beasts.�

...not sure how this in any way proves the above.

�No major contention of Scripture has been proved unhistorical.�

-- Archaeology and Israel, by W. F. Albright.......Utterly not true, absolute statements seldom are in general but just a little research counters this very easily.

I hope this is the sort of �meat� you were looking for. If so, chew on that for a while. If not, then I don�t really know what would suffice for you.

....not even close...see above. Chew on that for a while.

You don�t believe in the bible �as it is written today� � well, what other bible are you referencing? The one written in 1282 when Jesus was a regular guy having sex? I�m not familiar with that one. (tone was sarcasm)

He could be referencing any number of incarnations and revisions the bible has gone though over the millinea. Even a less than in depth search shows that books have been added and taken away, authors of doubtful veracity, revisions for language and political gain. There is no "original" script...but a collection that has evolved over the years.

The right hand is referred to many times in the bible as a position of prominence or excellence. It is symbolic. We get the modern day phrase referring to a person who is honored or irreplaceable as being �my right hand man�. Even today in Palestine and many other Eastern societies the left hand is reserved for bodily functions and considered unclean and not used for eating or greeting. Thus the practice of shaking hands with the right hand and waving with the right hand.

[/QUOTE] My question had nothing to do with the customs (which are well known to most) you outlined above. It did have to do with the explicit statement that there was proof that Jesus had died, come back and ascended to the right hand of god(I think you got the point of the facetious left hand reference and chose to ignore it). This is a matter of faith..NOT proof.

Why did I even take the time to answer all of this. It;s all about accountability...and categorically staing that there is proof when there isnt is wrong. To have faith in any of it is determined by what brings your soul peace and allows communication with your interpretation of "GOD"..which is a personal a sacred choice for all of us, and should be respected on that level.

As I said earlier, some of your statements are generous and thought provoking, others sadly revert to what is noted above. I respect your right and ability to follow any path you choose, and sincerely hope it continues to bring you the joy and peace you are finding. There is however, no need to throw things out as absolute proof that simply are not there, it robs one of credibility and smacks of charlotonism, and I sense that is not really the type of person you are.

Peace to you and ALL those that took the time to read, consider and contribute here.

[prometheus]

Serenity - you're right. When I went back and re-read some of my post it did come off a bit dogmatic and obtuse. I always try to resist making statements of "absolute truth" when dealing with things as fluid as spirituality.

I especially like your observations regarding "spirituality" - the journey vs. The destination. That was a prime example of me stating an opinion as fact and I accept the correction. Yes, it is true that many find their fulfillment by continually searching and seeking a greater understanding of the world around them and their place in it. I'm content with my belief system - but to characterize someone who is on a different path as "lost" is insulting to them - I apologize.

Re: archaeological proof. - I don't see your argument being well made. If there was something mentioned in the bible that was doubted by critics and dismissed out of hand. (i.e. Chaldeans didn't kill enemies of the state in furnaces or lion's pits) Then hundreds of years after the criticism was made proof is found that the the narrative of the bible is consistent with actual history - that supports the bible's accuracy. If the bible mentioned a king and no other historical reference is made to that king and critics say this is evidence that the bible is unreiable - then historical proof of that king is found and supports the bible's accuracy - that is archaeological proof of the accuracy and reliability of the bible.

I ask you to give me "proof" of something mentioned in the bible that is a fabrication and NOT supported by archaeology.

This is the same line of reasoning bible critics make when they say,"the bible is full of contradictions." I ask for examples of these supposed contradictions, they say, "oh, there's a bunch." Then when I ask for specifics - lame ones are brought up. One by one these "contradictions" are shown to NOT be contradictions.

Well, you say - "the bible is not accurate". I say, "prove it". Give me a specific example of something from the bible that is disproved by archaeological evidence.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[xxxxpradaxxxx]

Ok, I’m wide awake…but, I’m just not following you here. Don’t make inflammatory remarks that appear to based on your own observations and viewpoints and present them as fact. How exactly do you arrive at the conclusion that Jesus engaged in sexual relations? Please support this statement.

Are you elevating yourself or lower Jesus to claim he was “just like the rest of us guys”? By saying this you’re either elevating yourself or lowering him – which is it? The bible presents him as God’s son, perfect, and sinless. I’m interested - are you perfect and sinless? OR Do you say that Jesus is imperfect, and not God’s son?

Jesus was imperfect.

He was made flesh and blood just as us.

Is their evidence that he was a super human?

No.

Is their evidence that he did/didn't have relations with a female?

No.

Being that Jesus was HUMAN- their is no evidence that he was perfect.

Your Logic is Flawed, and based SOLEY upon Faith.

I can emphatically declare that if you can base your logistics of Jesus being perfect, based upon faith-

Then I can declare that based on the fact that Jesus was a man- he was imperfect and was driven by desires whether he acted upon them or not.

This is Human Nature. Not Faith.

I can say with every fiber of my body that there is NO man on this earth that is perfect.

To say there is, would be naiive.

Unless of course you base your knowledge on faith.

But you know- I can believe, and have faith that in the past there was an enlightened society ruled by squirrels.

That doesn't mean it was true, nor that it happened.

[prometheus]

ok Prada - let me digest that and get back to you. I do like the part about squirrles. I see your point - you want proof. OK, let me reason on this and form a logical response. I'm feeling a bit under the weather and am too doped up to respond intelligently.