[kimmycat]

I chose to vote yes on 8.
I think what people fail to realize is that in a perfect world there would be a separation of church and state. That is not so in this case. I don't think people who voted yes on 8 are trying to discriminate. I think it just so happens that more people are coming from the religious background than the h0mosexual one( i'm sure that there are people who voted yes on prop 8 because they are discriminatory..but not all voted yes because of that). Here in CA the yes majority won by 55%..which is not a lot. This is not the first time that this proposition was passed and I'm sure it'll be brought up again. I have really good friends who are h0mosexual and even family members. I don't have anything against them as a person but I will stick up for my beliefs. I think people should just agree to disagree because things will NEVER satisfy all. =)

[JustPlainJef]

So in a "perfect world," what would your solution be Kimmy? What do your beliefs allow for?

That was really rude of me. I didn't realize it until after I posted. I need a break from this to cool off.

GolfNut, I do commend you for this. I'm not picking either side, but for you to recognise that you need to step away, and also to acknowledge that you were rude.... Bravo.

[mab4285]

I chose to vote yes on 8.
I think what people fail to realize is that in a perfect world there would be a separation of church and state. That is not so in this case. I don't think people who voted yes on 8 are trying to discriminate. I think it just so happens that more people are coming from the religious background than the h0mosexual one( i'm sure that there are people who voted yes on prop 8 because they are discriminatory..but not all voted yes because of that). Here in CA the yes majority won by 55%..which is not a lot. This is not the first time that this proposition was passed and I'm sure it'll be brought up again. I have really good friends who are h0mosexual and even family members. I don't have anything against them as a person but I will stick up for my beliefs. I think people should just agree to disagree because things will NEVER satisfy all. =)

I agree with you in the separation of church and state. I would personally be happy with civil unions IF they provided all the same benefits that marriage did. However, it does not. If civil unions were offered to heterosexual couples as well, that would be great. Look at one of my previous posts on this issue. I beg to differ on the separation of church and state fact. People are discriminating against h0mosexuals where they can, and using religion as a crutch. In a perfect world, civil unions would grant all the rights and privilages to both heterosexual and h0mosexual couples that marriage does, and marriage would be available to those who believe in the religious institution of marriage, whether heterosexual or h0mosexual.

[exelant]

I only drop in and join the debate once in a while to give support to Neubeav when I can, golfnut. This is a debate that directly affects his life -- if hate legislation is allowed to stand in California, where will it stop?

The people who fund and push these amendments are often not even from the state where they were passed. It is my understanding the Mormon church provided significant funding and manpower collecting signatures. Now there is a backlash against them around the country that while wrong and misguided, it can be understood. Hate begets hate.

The people behind the amendment know there's a good chance it will be overturned. The point of it is to shape the debate and push their point of view. For them, this is a long term effort. The makeup of the court has changed -- but the decision in the Colorado case was 6 to 3. So it is still not a sure thing to not be overturned. Thankfully the next justices to be nominated with keep the court, while right leaning, from becoming a rubber stamp for the radical right.

Meanwhile, keep up the fight Beav! You are a great advocate for yourself and other gay people. Your postings are intelligent and to the point.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[Raven71]

Why is it hate when a one group disagrees with another. From what I have seen on TV and in NY yesterday all the hate was comming from the group that says they are being discriminated against,
Then to make it a civil right and blame black people for not backing them. I am so sick of this ****.
You lost get use to it like I have too about Obama winning and democrats taking control of my freedoms.
With what they are going to deny me is against my civil rights and the money they are about to take. Am I allowed to go to court and get them out. You got another election and let it go to a vote again. Maybe you'll win. Till then just enjoy the one your with cause you might realize marriage ain't all it is cut out to be.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[mab4285]

Why is it hate when a one group disagrees with another. From what I have seen on TV and in NY yesterday all the hate was comming from the group that says they are being discriminated against,
Then to make it a civil right and blame black people for not backing them. I am so sick of this ****.
You lost get use to it like I have too about Obama winning and democrats taking control of my freedoms.
With what they are going to deny me is against my civil rights and the money they are about to take. Am I allowed to go to court and get them out. You got another election and let it go to a vote again. Maybe you'll win. Till then just enjoy the one your with cause you might realize marriage ain't all it is cut out to be.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

Please reference this post I made before.

1. So?
2. If one vote or amendment was the end all be all, can you imagine where our country would be today? Interracial marriage would not exist, women would not have the right to vote, African Americans would be considered 3/5ths of a person as well as not having the right to vote, and African Americans couldn't even vote for president, let alone win an election, slavery would still be legal, alcohol would be illegal, residents of Washington, DC would not be allowed to vote for president, the US could have the same president in office indefinitely, police could search your home whenever they wanted.....need I go on?


Oh yeah....California and Texas wouldn't even be states!

While I recognize what people are doing, I would rather have an intelligent conversation between rational people take place. People who have open minds and are willing to try and see another point of view instead of the hate slinging that goes on.

[golfnut]

Please reference this post I made before.


While I recognize what people are doing, I would rather have an intelligent conversation between rational people take place. People who have open minds and are willing to try and see another point of view instead of the hate slinging that goes on.

The important thing to realize is whether it's protesting violently or having conversation, you won't change our opinions anymore than we'll change yours. Are you willing to give up your fight in light of a few points made from my side? Are you willing to drop your beliefs just to make others happy? I'm not either. Change is not always good.

[mab4285]

The important thing to realize is whether it's protesting violently or having conversation, you won't change our opinions anymore than we'll change yours. Are you willing to give up your fight in light of a few points made from my side? Are you willing to drop your beliefs just to make others happy? I'm not either. Change is not always good.

Then why did you vote for Obama? Change is necessary in any organization, nation, etc. etc. When people become complacent and don't fight for change, nothing happens. We need people to challenge other's opinions and engage in healthy debate. How can we grow if we don't change?

There's a difference between not being willing to drop your beliefs and having an open mind about things.

[golfnut]

Then why did you vote for Obama? Change is necessary in any organization, nation, etc. etc. When people become complacent and don't fight for change, nothing happens. We need people to challenge other's opinions and engage in healthy debate. How can we grow if we don't change?

There's a difference between not being willing to drop your beliefs and having an open mind about things.

I said not ALL change is good. Voting for Obama has nothing to do with this issue. He was the better candidate. Not because he was black or whatever you're implying. There is a difference between changing beliefs and an open mind. I might be a little more open-minded than before but I stand firmly behind my vote and will vote the same if it happens to resurface. As will you, right? The point is, discussing issues does not mean it will sway people's thinking one way or another. It's just something to talk about.

[cereal killer]

I chose to vote yes on 8.
I think what people fail to realize is that in a perfect world there would be a separation of church and state. That is not so in this case. I don't think people who voted yes on 8 are trying to discriminate. I think it just so happens that more people are coming from the religious background than the h0mosexual one( i'm sure that there are people who voted yes on prop 8 because they are discriminatory..but not all voted yes because of that). Here in CA the yes majority won by 55%..which is not a lot. This is not the first time that this proposition was passed and I'm sure it'll be brought up again. I have really good friends who are h0mosexual and even family members. I don't have anything against them as a person but I will stick up for my beliefs. I think people should just agree to disagree because things will NEVER satisfy all. =)

Kimmy if there was a proposition that said blacks were not allowed to marry because it's immoral and goes against their religious beliefs would you feel the same? You'd freak out and be pisssed off. And rightfully so.

Lets not sugar coat this. Lets call it what it is. Discrimination and a violation of Civil Rights. Hiding behind religion makes it even more disgusting. Might as well go back to the days when women and blacks couldn't vote. There's no difference at all. Discrimination is discrimination be it the color of ones skin, gender or sexual orientation.

By the way here's the definition for those that may be confused: treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit:

[golfnut]

That's not the same thing. Nobody has the choice what color they come out. Sexual preference is just that, a preference.
Kimmy had it right. We have already been down this road in this thread. It's a dead end. Trust me, CK.

[cereal killer]

Nobody has the choice what color they come out. Sexual preference is just that, a preference.
.

Golf how does one even address that? Your ignorance is astounding. I can't even believe you posted that. HAHAHAHAHA!!!

Dude that's just so out there it's just funny. I just had to quote it to keep it preserved. Golf I'm not being condesending here. I'm serious, but are you an adult?

[golfnut]

It's already been addressed, dude. Did you read the thread or just decide to bless us with your presence? My views are just fine. And yes, I'm an adult. Judging by your posts in the religious thread, I should ask you the same thing. Are you a grown up, cereal killer?

[mab4285]

That's not the same thing. Nobody has the choice what color they come out. Sexual preference is just that, a preference.
Kimmy had it right. We have already been down this road in this thread. It's a dead end. Trust me, CK.

Ah, but it is not a choice golfnut. Did you choose to be straight? Or is it just natural to you? You telling me that I chose to be gay is like me saying I chose to be white. I still am amazed by the people who say that sexual orientation (which is the proper terminology, not preference) is a choice. Like I have stated before, I did not choose to be discriminated against because of my sexuality. I did not choose to have my mother and father break into tears when I came out to them. I did not choose to be denied the right to be by my loved ones bedside as they lay sick and dying because of hospital policies. I did not choose to be beaten and hung along the side of a fence like a scarecrow simply because I love the same gender. I did not choose to be denied the right to socialize with other members of my community. I did not choose to have my love for my partner be invalidated because of the status of their X and Y chomosomes.

There was a time where I was ashamed of being gay, when I truly wanted to choose to be straight. When I walk accross my college campus and see words of hate scrawled on the sidewalks on National Coming Out day. There isn't a day that goes by that I don't think "boy, my life would be so much easier if I were straight...".

So in short, your statement about being homosexual as a choice is highly invalid. What would you think if you had to "come out" of the closet as straight? Imagine that 10% of the population were straight....how would you feel then? We are just like straight people. We live in all types of communities, we hold all sorts of jobs. We just want to be respected, just like any other minority group would. I personally am perhaps the most normal person you would ever meet. I'm just a normal guy finishing up his master's degree, who happens to be gay.

[cereal killer]

It's already been addressed, dude. Did you read the thread or just decide to bless us with your presence? My views are just fine. And yes, I'm an adult. Judging by your posts in the religious thread, I should ask you the same thing. Are you a grown up, cereal killer?

No i didn't bother to read the entire thread it's not neccesary. This issue is black and white there is no gray area. So I'm not going to read 200 some odd posts and waste my time.

No need to get nasty Golf. I prefaced my comment by telling you I was not trying to be condescending. So your an adult and yes I am an adult. I understand that is very questionable because I do have erratic behavior. But thats just me.

To school you on sexual orientation is something I wont do. I see from some of your post your one of those loco bible folks. I have a better chance of reasoning with asphalt.

When you have somewhat of a clue about that we can talk.

But this thread is about discrimination and civil rights issues so lets stick to that.

[golfnut]

No i didn't bother to read the entire thread it's not neccesary. This issue is black and white there is no gray area. So I'm not going to read 200 some odd posts and waste my time.

No need to get nasty Golf. I prefaced my comment by telling you I was not trying to be condescending. So your an adult and yes I am an adult. I understand that is very questionable because I do have erratic behavior. But thats just me.

To school you on sexual orientation is something I wont do. I see from some of your post your one of those loco bible folks. I have a better chance of reasoning with asphalt.

When you have somewhat of a clue about that we can talk.

But this thread is about discrimination and civil rights issues so lets stick to that.

Sounds good, CK.

[cereal killer]

Niubeav, people like golfnut are very set in their beliefs. They are close minded know-it-alls who hide behind the bible and preach their intolerance of anyone different from them.

He wont get it ever. He can't put 2 and 2 together and get 4 because the bible says it's 5. You can show him draw it up explain it all you want. His arguement while totally irrational and rooted in ignorance is his truth. Scary huh? Yeah I think so too.

Your only seeing things on the surface. Golfnut is a religious zealot. Trust me on this. He's holding back but I see through it.

[cereal killer]

golfnut help me understasnd something. you are attracted to men and women but choose to be with a woman?

[golfnut]

golfnut help me understasnd something. you are attracted to men and women but choose to be with a woman?

Come again? Did your dumb a** forget to exhale or something? Now who's being ignorant? What I can help you understand is that you have the nerve to question my being an adult and yet you continue to make childish statements such as this. What the h3ll is your problem with me?

[mab4285]

Come again? Did your dumb a** forget to exhale or something? Now who's being ignorant? What I can help you understand is that you have the nerve to question my being an adult and yet you continue to make childish statements such as this. What the h3ll is your problem with me?

It's not an ignorant question golfnut. If I choose to be with a man, then that must mean that you choose to be with a woman. It's actually quite logical thinking. It's not childish at all. Well thought out ck! Great sense of logic!

[golfnut]

It's not an ignorant question golfnut. If I choose to be with a man, then that must mean that you choose to be with a woman. It's actually quite logical thinking.

You know what. Before you go and open your mouth, why don't you read all the posts he has made towards me as of late. He is crossing the line and I'm about sick of it.
There's no sense in arguing with any of you. We look at life differently and that's it.

[mab4285]

You know what. Before you go and open your mouth, why don't you read all the posts he has made towards me as of late. He is crossing the line and I'm about sick of it.
There's no sense in arguing with any of you. We look at life differently and that's it.

I actually have, thanks very much. If there was no sense in arguing with any of us, then why did you resurface a thread that had been dead for a week? You brought this on yourself.

At least cereal killer has made some great blackberry related posts instead of just hanging out in the social forums. I've looked to see where you've posted golf, and there aren't too many Blackberry posts in your post history.

[golfnut]

I actually have, thanks very much. If there was no sense in arguing with any of us, then why did you resurface a thread that had been dead for a week? You brought this on yourself.

At least cereal killer has made some great blackberry related posts instead of just hanging out in the social forums. I've looked to see where you've posted golf, and there aren't too many Blackberry posts in your post history.

I posted in this thread again because I felt like it. I did it to discuss something of substance rather than the usual, boring topics seen on the boards. Glad to see you checking up on me, though. Since you noticed my history in the threads, did you happen to take a glance at the phone I use? I don't have a BB! Kinda hard to contribute to BB related threads when I don't have one yet, huh? So have you protested lately?

[mab4285]

I posted in this thread again because I felt like it. I did it to discuss something of substance rather than the usual, boring topics seen on the boards. Glad to see you checking up on me, though. Since you noticed my history in the threads, did you happen to take a glance at the phone I use? I don't have a BB! Kinda hard to contribute to BB related threads when I don't have one yet, huh? So have you protested lately?

Actually, I chose not to. We're all not militant gays. I choose to try and educate people instead of go out and protest.

Do you plan on purchasing a blackberry? If yes, you'll enjoy it and welcome to the addiction. If not, why did you join the forum?

[golfnut]

Actually, I chose not to. We're all not militant gays. I choose to try and educate people instead of go out and protest.

Do you plan on purchasing a blackberry? If yes, you'll enjoy it and welcome to the addiction. If not, why did you join the forum?

How's that going for you? Anyone bite on your ideals yet?
I was waiting for the Bold and Storm to arrive so I could make the right choice. Soon.