[mab4285]

Well a lot has been happening where the state Senate in California and the House of Representatives have both said that Prop 8 is not an amendment to the state constitution, but rather a constitutional revision since it made a HUGE change to the California State constitution. As such, the constitutional revision would have needed a 2/3rds majority vote to actually pass, rather than a simple majority (51%) vote. If this is actually resolved and the law makers realize the mistake that was made in November, there won't even need to be another popular vote, as I understand it, since the state voted, and since it didn't get a 2/3rd majority vote, it wouldn't have passed any way.

Hearings will be starting to heard beginning on March 5th by the California Supreme Court....and if their ruling in favor of gay marriage earlier has any relation to how they will hear the arguments in this hearing, I think we'll get prop 8 overturned.

[golfnut]

It's crazy that you're waayy over there in IL and get more info than I do in CA! I can't believe they would miss something so critical as that. Oh well. It is what it is. I realized something about myself since this topic was last discussed. I haven't really thought about it during my daily routine. So I guess it hasn't affected ME as much as I previously believed. Funny, huh?

[mab4285]

It's crazy that you're waayy over there in IL and get more info than I do in CA! I can't believe they would miss something so critical as that. Oh well. It is what it is. I realized something about myself since this topic was last discussed. I haven't really thought about it during my daily routine. So I guess it hasn't affected ME as much as I previously believed. Funny, huh?

Funny, yet typical. Now you see it's really not as big of a deal as you thought it would be, so there really isn't any harm in letting gay people get married. Doesn't really affect your daily life.

[pathymo]

But gonna answer anyways!

Naturally, as a gay man I am against Proposition 8. I do not believe that discrimination should be written into any constitution, state or federal. I also believe on a state and federal level, gay marriages should be recognized. This does not mean that I believe a Church should legally have to marry gay people. I believe this is where the line is blurred.

Gay marriage is not about gay people walking into a religious institution and getting married. The fact of the matter is, gay people getting married in churches will happen whether or not it is 'legal'. The issue at hand is a marriage license not being granted or recognized by the state, and gay people not getting equal legal rights that come with a state recognized marriage license. It has nothing to do with religion. It has everything to do with equal rights under the law.

Unfortunately, even if states recognize gay marriages, because of President Clinton's stupid decision to sign the DOMA the marriage will still not be federally recognized. So a gay couple who is legally married (in CT or MA) can file jointly for state taxes, but not federal taxes. And there are of course no kinds of federal protection under the law.

Really what should happen is that the title of "marriage license" should be changed. That way, everyone goes to a court house to get a "Civil Union License" or "Yipa doo da License", and then those people are recognized under the law as a Union and are therefore granted certain rights under the law. Then if people choose to do so, they can go to a Church and get married.


And one side note, after reading some past posts...... parents cannot shield their children from the world. Sorry, it can't happen. Growing up, I knew I was gay. From a very young age I knew I liked boys, not girls. My parents didn't have to teach me about an "alternative lifestyle" for me to know what I wanted. Also, at least in my school, my parents had to sign a paper saying it was ok for me to attend sex ed class when we had to learn about that. If the parents didn't sign the paper, the kid didn't have to go. No reason that couldn't be done again. But I digress....

If a kid is going to be gay, the kid is going to be gay. What is damaging to the child is not to nurture or discuss these kinds of feelings, but to condemn these feelings. The highest rate of suicide is among LGBT teenagers. Why? Because they're constantly told it is wrong, disgusting, against God, against this against that, yadda yadda yadda. Couple that with the fact that you can't get married, there are people who want to kill you for who you are, and God doesn't love you anymore. Not much reason to live.....

I'm extremely fortunate for my family. I was never told I was less than human, that I was disgusting, CHOOSING to "act" on unnatural feelings. When I came out at 15, my parents said "ok, we want you to be happy, safe, healthy... if this is who you are, we don't love you any less and we are here to love and support you". To think I was ever afraid to come out to them.... but many kids are, because of how their parents talk about the issue, how society views the issue. That its an "alternative lifestyle".... uh, no. Living out in the woods in a cave with bears is an alternative lifestyle. Who I love is not a lifestyle.


There is so much wrong in the world... with all the hate in the world, why should we be condemned because of who we love?

I know not everyone agrees, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I certainly don't hold it against anyone! I have a very good friend who loves me as a friend, but does not "agree" with my "lifestyle", and hey that is their view and why should I not be friends with them for it? But these are simply my beliefs.

[cwoodland]

Pathy:

Great post. Reasoned. Simple. Correct. I was realized I was gay as a child despite nothing but the negative reinforcements you described. In fact I almost did kill myself over it. My family adjusted and everyone is very supportive now. With the gay marriage issue my approach is financial - inheritance, social security benefits, etc... as well as the more talked about hospital visitation rights. Religious marriage needs to be seperated from civil marriage as in the UK.

Chad

[jdoc77]

Nowhere in the constitution does it say that marriage is a RIGHT. Just to say. Not for straights or gays. Should gays be allowed to get a secular marriage and be power of attorneys for their spouses and get health benefits? Yes, but the problem is when people try to equate religious and civil marriage. Various churches can and maybe should be allowed to restrict religious marriages between certain individuals. ... but then, some allow it, so just find one that allows it and ... sorry, if you are Catholic, Muslim, Mormon and gay and you are hoping for a church marriage... you better start your own sect.

[contractors_wife]

You know I think this is all horse ****. I think ppl should be able to marry whomever they want and makes them happy. I'm a parent and I also have a sister who is gay. I love my sister more and more each day fvor the person she is. I believe she should be able to be happy and who cares who its with. My kids are only 5 and 3 so they don't understand, but my sister doesn't throw it in their faces. When my kids are older they will, but til then i'm good. I have stood up for my sister in multiple situations and I will til I don't have to anymore. She is planning on getting married next and I am her gf's matron of honor and my girls are the flower girls. I can't wait. So my opinion is to let ppl marry whomever they want and ppl should just shut up if they don't like it.

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[golfnut]

You know I think this is all horse ****. I think ppl should be able to marry whomever they want and makes them happy. I'm a parent and I also have a sister who is gay. I love my sister more and more each day fvor the person she is. I believe she should be able to be happy and who cares who its with. My kids are only 5 and 3 so they don't understand, but my sister doesn't throw it in their faces. When my kids are older they will, but til then i'm good. I have stood up for my sister in multiple situations and I will til I don't have to anymore. She is planning on getting married next and I am her gf's matron of honor and my girls are the flower girls. I can't wait. So my opinion is to let ppl marry whomever they want and ppl should just shut up if they don't like it.

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So you were one of the anti-prop 8ers, right?

[RavenMaverick]

I have a feeling that I am probably going to regret posting in this thread, but I couldn't hold myself back.

Even if someone does not "agree" with gay marrige I don't understand how it affects them. We all may hold certain views about what others should do and how they should live.

But, to the ones that oppose gay marriage, why give the government one more right over someone's personal decisions that don't affect anyone else? There are very, very, old laws on some state's books governing what is legal and not so legal to do in one's own bedroom with the blinds drawn down. Most of us straight people break these laws without batting an eyelash. Why? Because it makes us happy, it isn't hurting anyone else, and it feels good.

We start heading down a slippery slope when we let the government deem what appropriate behavior is. We tend to forget that when we let the government start taking away from one section of people, that we are saying it is ok for them to do the same to us when they feel it is neccessary. People are people and all people should have equal rights.

Why should anyone else care if someone wants to pay extra premiums on their insurance if they want to cover their same sex partner? I don't care. I don't lay awake in bed at night worried about this. It isn't costing me any money. Doesn't hurt any.

And why shouldn't people who have lived together for 50 years have the final say about burial rights? Why would a mother who originally "disowned" her daughter for being gay, automatically get the right to pull the plug when her partner has been with her for 35 years? Why should people who have raised a child together for 12 years have to fight to continue to be a parent and raise the child after the other dies. Instead of having the child go to a grandparents home to live because the living parent isn't "biological"?

Who does this hurt?

My advice? Gay or not...

GET A WILL.

I am a straight married woman. My husband wants to be cremated when he dies. My mother-in-law is totally against this for religious reasons and has told me that she will fight it. She can fight it. And she absolutely will if she is still here to do it.

My point?

Everyone needs a will. Marriage (gay or straight) does not always guarantee 100% of anything if one spouse dies before the other.

My view? Obviously gay marriage is not for me as I am heterosexual. I however would not prefer it for my daughter for a number of reasons. Whether I agree that being gay is chosen or inborn, whether I personally think being gay is right or wrong, it wouldn't send me into seizures and cold sweats in the middle of the night if every gay couple in existance got married tomorrow. And I can't figure out why other people spend so much time engaged in trying to stop it.

Just my long winded view. No reason to flame me.

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[golfnut]

Well, I'm not going to lie. I am strongly against the idea of gay marriage. That is noted. However, I guess it really isn't my place to decide how someone else lives their life. So long as it doesn't conflict with mine. As I recently stated in a conversation with niubeav, I think about it a whole lot less than I thought I did. So to each their own.

[RavenMaverick]

Well, I'm not going to lie. I am strongly against the idea of gay marriage. That is noted. However, I guess it really isn't my place to decide how someone else lives their life. So long as it doesn't conflict with mine. As I recently stated in a conversation with niubeav, I think about it a whole lot less than I thought I did. So to each their own.

I think most gay people don't mind or can understand that a lot of people don't agree with gay marriage or with just being gay. I think that they just want the same thing most every other person wants.

I also think it takes a big person to admit what you just did. The whole idea of debate is to have it with someone who is able to change their mind... even a little.

I will go ahead and state that I am with you. I wouldn't automatically vote for gay marriage, but I would not vote against it. I was raised in church with most of the beliefs of the church. I was also raised to think that you should go above your raising. Think for yourself. Things are not always black and white. Whether I like it or not, has nothing to do with it being the right or wrong thing to do.

Just as my generation was taught not to date/marry outside of your race. It was not the right thing to teach. Same here. They don't deserve less than the rest of us get just because of who they get in bed next to at night.

Empathy is a wonderful thing. I try to always put myself in someone else's shoes.

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[BigBadWulf]

I'm against "gay" marriage, not because it effects me personally, but because it will effect all of us. Marriage is one of the basic cornerstones of our society, and to change its meaning would only cause to trivialize it. I have nothing against homosexuals, but at some point you should recognize the distinct minority your in and accept the world as it is.
However, considering the world as it is is careening towards the breakdown of all that is normal, and straight (sorry for the pun) into total anarchy anyway. What the h***, let'em marry dogs if they want, and allow polygamy too, as that's were we're headed. And to all those that will jump all over me to not be ridiculous, don't be so judgmental. What's wrong with someone and their undying commitment with the animal of their choice? I say there's nothing more beautiful! (insert smiley with touching tear at corner of eye)

[pathymo]

I'm against "gay" marriage, not because it effects me personally, but because it will effect all of us. Marriage is one of the basic cornerstones of our society, and to change its meaning would only cause to trivialize it. I have nothing against homosexuals, but at some point you should recognize the distinct minority your in and accept the world as it is.
However, considering the world as it is is careening towards the breakdown of all that is normal, and straight (sorry for the pun) into total anarchy anyway. What the h***, let'em marry dogs if they want, and allow polygamy too, as that's were we're headed. And to all those that will jump all over me to not be ridiculous, don't be so judgmental. What's wrong with someone and their undying commitment with the animal of their choice? I say there's nothing more beautiful! (insert smiley with touching tear at corner of eye)

Firstly, whether or not you are for gay marriage is not the issue. The issue is the rights that come with a marriage license. Gays (or straights) don't have to get married in a church. And even if gay marriage is illegal, gay people can and will still get married in churches. It has NOTHING to do with the religious institution of marriage, and EVERYTHING to do with the state and federal institution of marriage.

Secondly, would you deny black people the right to get married? They are a minority, and it was once illegal. How about interracial marriages? Another minority, and was once illegal. Would you support the ban of American Sign Language, the language used by the Deaf? Because they are a minority, and were once not allowed to use their own language. Rewind a couple hundred years: Look at those native americans over there doing a spirit dance-- they look nuts! They're a majority, but let's kill em all anyway.

To deny rights to anyone is NOT OK. Its been done in the past to many groups of people, many minorities, and it is still being done. In the 21st century. In America. Freakin' South Africa recognizes gay marriages.

There was a time when it was illegal for blacks to marry whites. When it was finally done away with, there were parents shielding their children's eyes from the danger of seeing an interracial couple. There were people that thought it was the end of society, the downfall of America, and the destruction of the institution of marriage. But its not. Everything is still fine. And its the same with gay marriage. It isn't going to change YOU or YOUR LIFE if I get married to my partner. And you clearly DO have something against homosexuals as you are so quick to deny rights to them.

Marriage between a man and a woman is also not the foundation of society. In ancient times, men married men, women married women, men married women and had boys to screw around with, etc etc. The idea that marriage should be strictly between a man and a woman is, in the grand scheme of history and time, a new idea.

On to your next ridiculous statement. Equating gay marriage with marrying dogs is just silly. It really is. Firstly, dogs cannot choose to marry a human being. They obviously would not have a say in the matter. They are not even sentient beings. Why would allowing gays to have the rights that come with a state or federal marriage license automatically make it so people could marry animals? Where does this connection even come from? Its really ludicrous.

If you're against gay marriage as a religious institution, more power to you. But you MUST separate the religious institution of marriage from the state and federal marriage license. They are different, and do and mean completely different things.

[mab4285]

I'm against "gay" marriage, not because it effects me personally, but because it will effect all of us. Marriage is one of the basic cornerstones of our society, and to change its meaning would only cause to trivialize it. I have nothing against homosexuals, but at some point you should recognize the distinct minority your in and accept the world as it is.
However, considering the world as it is is careening towards the breakdown of all that is normal, and straight (sorry for the pun) into total anarchy anyway. What the h***, let'em marry dogs if they want, and allow polygamy too, as that's were we're headed. And to all those that will jump all over me to not be ridiculous, don't be so judgmental. What's wrong with someone and their undying commitment with the animal of their choice? I say there's nothing more beautiful! (insert smiley with touching tear at corner of eye)

You do realize how stupid you sound, right?

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[xxxxpradaxxxx]

I'm against "gay" marriage, not because it effects me personally, but because it will effect all of us. Marriage is one of the basic cornerstones of our society, and to change its meaning would only cause to trivialize it.

Seems Like You Still Have The Mentality Of A White Slave Owner-

"Black People Are Below Us. They Have No Right To Want Equal Rights As White Man. White Man Is Superior, And Has The Favor Of God."

I have nothing against homosexuals, but at some point you should recognize the distinct minority your in and accept the world as it is.

Hispanics, African Americans, Asians, Are All A Minority In Our Country- Can They Vote? Be Married? Get Educated? Own A Home?

Or Did African Americans And Women Fight For Their Rights, And Eventually Were Given What Was Due To Them Since The Beginning?

Gays Will Have Equal Rights, It Is Only A Matter Of Time.

I Assure You.

However, considering the world as it is is careening towards the breakdown of all that is normal, and straight (sorry for the pun) into total anarchy anyway. What the h***, let'em marry dogs if they want, and allow polygamy too, as that's were we're headed.

Your Likening Homosexuality To Beastiality? Nice.

If You Think A Man Sleeping With A Man, Or Woman Sleeping With A Woman, Is Comparable To Beastiality Than You Must Think That Humans Themselves Are As Animals.

So Men And Women Procreating Is Akin To Interspecies Fornication?


OH And BTW In Europe There Are Some Cases Of Humans Marrying Animals- And Their Society Is Far, Far, Far Away From Caving In-

As You Make It Seem.

And to all those that will jump all over me to not be ridiculous, don't be so judgmental.

Judge The Judge?

Thats Funny.

Your Quick To Judge Your Fellow Man On Expressing Their Inherent Attractions, But Homosexuals Can't Judge You Or Your Views?

Seems A Bit Silly And One Sided.

What If Heterosexuality Was Taboo- And It Was A Sin Under God To Express Your Love To A Person Of The Opposite Gender-

Answer These Questions Honestly:

Would You Practice Homosexuality As Is Expected Of You In Civil Society?

Would You Be Able To Inhibit Your Attract To People Of The Opposite Gender?

Or Would You Express Your Attraction, And Love Regardless Of Civil Restraints?

[xxxxpradaxxxx]

They are not even sentient beings.

I'm Sorry Pathy-

I Don't Want To Get Off Topic, But...

As Much As I Agree With Everything You Said In Your Post-

That Line There Really Irritated Me.

[BigBadWulf]

Wow, you guys really read a lot into my one little post!
Just a few points:
Marriage has been around for thousands of years, it's always been between a man and a woman.
Every time society has strayed, that society has fallen.
You can have a legal partnership with whomever you wish, and I'd vote for civil unions in a heartbeat.
Everyone has the right to marry, no one is denying it to you. To compare this to the civil rights movement is silly. We didn't have to redefine the word vote for black people to do it. Your beef is with a definition, not a right.
No one addressed polygamy and shot right to animal husbandry, are you for or against?
Who are you to judge what my dog wants?!?
I didn't judge anyone, simply stated my opinion. Sorry you don't like it, I don't like some of yours. That's what makes this country great, we can all express them without violence or incarceration.
Should I have put extra spaces between the letters, for you to fill in?

[mab4285]

Wow, you guys really read a lot into my one little post!
Just a few points:
Marriage has been around for thousands of years, it's always been between a man and a woman.
Every time society has strayed, that society has fallen.
You can have a legal partnership with whomever you wish, and I'd vote for civil unions in a heartbeat.
Everyone has the right to marry, no one is denying it to you. To compare this to the civil rights movement is silly. We didn't have to redefine the word vote for black people to do it. Your beef is with a definition, not a right.
No one addressed polygamy and shot right to animal husbandry, are you for or against?
Who are you to judge what my dog wants?!?
I didn't judge anyone, simply stated my opinion. Sorry you don't like it, I don't like some of yours. That's what makes this country great, we can all express them without violence or incarceration.
Should I have put extra spaces between the letters, for you to fill in?

We have KEPT redefining marriage. At one point in the US, only caucasians were allowed to get married. We redefined marriage to allow African Americans to get married, right? Oh....then at one point it was not in the "definition" of marriage for a white man to marry an African American woman, or vice versa. Oh yeah....we redefined marriage to allow that.

But sure thing....the "definition" of marriage has always been a constant in this country, right?

Are you saying that since our country "strayed" from it's original definition of marriage, between two white people, society has suffered? Allowing African Americans to get married has caused suffering to society? Allowing interracial marriage has caused society to suffer? My biracial best friend would beg to differ with you on that, as well as myself. Society is so much better for having him in the world than not.

I do agree with you on one thing. Marriage is a religious institution and needs to be kept out of the state and federal governments. Civil unions need to be available to couples, both straight and gay. If you don't believe in some form of a higher being, then you should not be getting a marriage certificate, but rather a civil union. If you do believe in that higher being and your church allows for the marriage of two men or two women, then anyone who believe in that higher power, as long as it is acceptable with your church, then they should be able to get married. Keep marriage in the church and out of the state's hands.

[BigBadWulf]

The definition didn't change, just the laws restricting it.
When did I say anything to make you think I was against interracial marriage?

[mab4285]

The definition didn't change, just the laws restricting it.
When did I say anything to make you think I was against interracial marriage?

By changing a law, you change a definition. I'm sorry that you feel otherwise. We continually change the definition of marriage all the time. I feel for you that you can't see that.

By saying that when society strays from the accepted norm that society suffers is how I believed you to say that you were against interracial marriage.

[BigBadWulf]

Thanks for feeling for me!
The definition was still between a man and a woman.
Yes, there are basic fabrics of society that IMO are necessary to keeping things cohesive. Everything else can be a free-for-all for all I care.

[xxxxpradaxxxx]

You Never Answered My Question BigBad-

Don't Be Shy-

What If Heterosexuality Was Taboo- And It Was A Sin Under God To Express Your Love To A Person Of The Opposite Gender-

Answer These Questions Honestly:

Would You Practice Homosexuality As Is Expected Of You In Civil Society?

Would You Be Able To Inhibit Your Attract To People Of The Opposite Gender?

Or Would You Express Your Attraction, And Love Regardless Of Civil Restraints?

[BigBadWulf]

Sorry, didn't realize you really wanted me to give you an answer. I'm rarely shy, unless you got me in a room with Marisa Tomei.
If heterosexuality was a sin, then I wouldn't be around to answer that would I?
1) Of course not, didn't ask you to practice heterosexuality.
2) Why? As long as I was attracted to them.
3) Depends on the level of restrain. We're blessed to live in a free country where that's possible regardless of orientation. In many countries they are not, better to be in the closet than dead.
You may consider me a religious zealot, but I don't expect anyone else to live like me. I don't believe being homosexual is a sin. I believe that committing homosexual acts is a sin. That's my interpretation of Leviticus, and until someone can show me where I'm wrong, I'm sticking with it. I'm a Libertarian, so I also believe that my religious beliefs should have no bearing on anyone elses life. A perfect example would be abortion. It's not the religious principal that makes me against it. In fact most Rabbi's will tell you your not a person in the eyes of G_d until your born. I disagree there religiously, see Jeremiah 1:5, but the fact that you have a beating heart in 20+ days, and brain waves in 40+ days, leads me to only one conclusion. It's a living, human being inside a womb, and terminating it is just as much murder as a 1 minute old, or older.
Now, while I don't have a problem with you living the life you choose, I do have a philosophy that might just **** you off, but that's not my ambition. Since you all have "Gay Pride" parades, could you please have a "Breeder Appreciation Day". Then you could at least honor us for perpetuating the species.
You asked! And about the honesty, look at the thread I started:
http://forums.crackberry.com/f36/favorite-quote-171445/

I hope your enjoying the debate as much as me, but if you keep attacking me personally for the views I have, as apposed to simply presenting your argument, then I will stop responding. I refuse to be uncivil, it's not appropriate, necessary or productive.

[xxxxpradaxxxx]

I hope your enjoying the debate as much as me, but if you keep attacking me personally for the views I have, as apposed to simply presenting your argument, then I will stop responding. I refuse to be uncivil, it's not appropriate, necessary or productive.

If you think thats attacking- Better get out of off topic quickly.

Questioning something you state is not attacking- it's called being productive on these boards.

Calling you a **** or an ******* is attacking.

Which Mind You, No One Has Done.

I Would Reconsider Calling Yourself Libertarian- Your Views Contradict It.

[BigBadWulf]

Examples of "questioning" my statements:

On to your next ridiculous statement. Equating gay marriage with marrying dogs is just silly. It really is.

You do realize how stupid you sound, right?

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Seems Like You Still Have The Mentality Of A White Slave Owner-

"Black People Are Below Us. They Have No Right To Want Equal Rights As White Man. White Man Is Superior, And Has The Favor Of God."





Judge The Judge?

Thats Funny.

Your Quick To Judge Your Fellow Man On Expressing Their Inherent Attractions, But Homosexuals Can't Judge You Or Your Views?

Seems A Bit Silly And One Sided.

I feel for you that you can't see that.

Yes, I realize yours was only 2 of the quotes, but "the mentality of a slave owner", really, is that necessary?
I could have trashed you all for many statements you've all posted, but chose to express my opinions instead. But since you don't think it's an attack, ok. Suggesting that heterosexuality would be a sin has got to be one of the funniest things I've ever seen regarding this argument. Yah, I know, I brought up the whole bestiality thing, but however extreme, it's real. And once you start down the path of changing the meaning to suit your needs, you better get ready to change it for someone elses too.
Because I believe the definition of marriage shouldn't change, doesn't make me any less of a Libertarian than anyone else. Been a member since '96, shook Bob Barr's hand and voted for him in '08. Since most Lib's wimped out and voted for McCain, I'd say I'm an extreme Libertarian.