03-08-09 01:51 PM
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  1. thinkamp's Avatar
    A good stimulus plan, and the one that was enacted generally fits this, should 1) provide temporary tax relief to enable people to deal with reductions in income and/or higher costs associate with the economic down, 2) provides funding such as extended unemployment insurance, food stamps, health care assistance for those who have lost their jobs, and 3) provide funding that results in job creation such as for public works projects and initiatives that assist industries that allow them to hire people.

    Jobs is the key, because it provides self respect for those that have who have lost their jobs, as well as reduces the need for extended government benefits.

    Giving people a check will not significantly help the economy. Consumption will not create strong, good paying jobs with good benefits. It will at best increase the service sector economy which are typically lower wage jobs with limited or not benefits. Furthermore, direct disbursements will likely be used to deal with existing household financial issues such as paying off existing bills or used for savings for those without consumptive needs.

    Furthermore, if as you suggest we give everyone $10,000 which would be a big boost to consumption, there would be no long term benefit to the U.S. economy, because nothing is manufactured in the U.S. Consequently the heavy component of this spending winds up oversees (China) which ultimately becomes a stimulus for other countries.

    I can tell you that last years tax rebates went to payoff existing credit card bills. If my wife and I got another $10K each that would probably go in the bank as cushion in the event that one of us lost our job.

    In spite of my objections to Bush's tax cuts, they have benefited my wife and I pretty handsomely. However, all the extra take home income we received has been offset by the ever increasing share of our health insurance, and rising energy prices. Any tax cuts that the middle class and below have seen have effectively been give aways to OPEC. Yes it helps because we have the money to give to OPEC instead of our savings, but that money could have gone to greater benefit in the U.S.

    I also want to comment on those who have made light of your age. People shouldn't dismiss someones ideas out of hand whether they are 19 or 90. Your $10K give away shows that you at least understand that putting money in to the economy helps, and that it can help people stay afloat. I think there are better ways to do the same thing. However, at 47 and having worked for 25 years, I have much better idea of how are economy works, what fiscal policies have worked what ones haven't, and a much better idea of what a persons long term financial needs will be.
    You are very right, but as far as the public jobs they will be creating they are going to be like construction workers and those jobs only last so long. One thing I cannot get around is that yes we will be getting a little bit of a tax relief, but that is going to last so long and then again it going to go right back up to pay that debt back. I just hate that America has to go further and further underground with this large amount of debt we are in. There has to be a better way.
    03-02-09 08:33 AM
  2. thinkamp's Avatar
    I got an email this morning work and I thought I would share it.

    Title:
    Stimulus Plan Explained

    Body:
    Shortly after class, an economics student approaches his economics professor and says, "I don't understand this stimulus bill. Can you explain it to me?"

    The professor replied, "I don't have any time to explain it at my office, but if you come over to my house on Saturday and help me with my weekend project, I'll be glad to explain it to you." The student agreed.

    At the agreed-upon time, the student showed up at the professor's house. The professor stated that the weekend project involved his backyard pool.

    They both went out back to the pool, and the professor handed the student a bucket. Demonstrating with his own bucket, the professor said, "First, go over to the deep end, and fill your bucket with as much water as you can." The student did as he was instructed.

    The professor then continued, "Follow me over to the shallow end, and then dump all the water from your bucket into it." The student was naturally confused, but did as he was told.

    The professor then explained they were going to do this many more times, and began walking back to the deep end of the pool.

    The confused student asked, "Excuse me, but why are we doing this?"

    The professor matter-of-factly stated that he was trying to make the shallow end much deeper.

    The student didn't think the economics professor was serious, but figured that he would find out the real story soon enough.

    However, after the 6th trip between the shallow end and the deep end, the student began to become worried that his economics professor had gone mad. The student finally replied, "All we're doing is wasting valuable time and effort on unproductive pursuits. Even worse, when this process is all over, everything will be at the same level it was before, so all you'll really have accomplished is the destruction of what could have been truly productive action!"

    The professor put down his bucket and replied with a smile, "Congratulations. You now understand the stimulus bill."
    03-02-09 09:04 AM
  3. xxxxpradaxxxx's Avatar
    Gotta say this too: We need to deep six the "I'm not racist, there's blacks/whites in my family" and the "I dated a black/white guy/girl, so...I'm not racist" comments. It means nothing. Nada.

    I dated a guy, who told me (a month into our dating relationship) that I wasn't like "most black people". He thought I was an anomaly — he actually said that I was one of the "better ones". Blew my mind. He tried to clean it up, with...guess what? The "Now, I'm not a racist..." lead-in, which led to a downhill discussion, from that point on. I can laugh at it, now.
    I can relate to how you feel about that Tlynn-

    I'm Cuban And When People Actually Find Out My Nationality Or I Tell Them, They Get Confused And Think I'm Joking.

    Apparently, Since I Finished High School, Speak Without An Accent, Run A Bussiness, Own a Car, Have White Skin-

    I'm Automatically Labelled An Anglo Saxon.

    It Gets To A Point That When People Find Out What Nationality You Are In My Area, They View You As A Different Person.

    Which Really Annoys Me, Because We Are All Human First, And I'm Still Quite Surprised That People Still Hold On To The Belief That Ethnicity Predisposes How People Should Act And Behave.

    Humans Are Humans Whether Your From The North, South, East, Or West.
    Last edited by xxxxpradaxxxx; 03-02-09 at 09:40 AM.
    03-02-09 09:36 AM
  4. Tlynnsmith's Avatar
    I can relate to how you feel about that Tlynn-

    I'm Cuban And When People Actually Find Out My Nationality Or I Tell Them, They Get Confused And Think I'm Joking.

    Apparently, Since I Finished High School, Speak Without An Accent, Run A Bussiness, Own a Car, Have White Skin-

    I'm Automatically Labelled An Anglo Saxon.

    It Gets To A Point That When People Find Out What Nationality You Are In My Area, They View You As A Different Person.

    Which Really Annoys Me, Because We Are All Human First, And I'm Still Quite Surprised That People Still Hold On To The Belief That Ethnicity Predisposes How People Should Act And Behave.

    Humans Are Humans Whether Your From The North, South, East, Or West.


    That's exactly why I'm not covinced that Americans are so "progressive", when it comes to race relations. We're not there yet, and don't have a clue.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    03-02-09 11:45 AM
  5. Fence's Avatar
    I know what the enemy has done, Seven. I have also witnessed things done in our name, a discussion not for public boards. I ask you what it means to be an American? You would have us unilaterally invade any country where a terrorist might be - essentially declare war on the world to root them out, and at the same time let it be known that democracy, rule of law and individual rights only belong to Americans. I'm sorry, I am not with you if that's the America you see. Saddam was evil, no question. The terrorists we seek are barbarians, on that we agree, but I for one do not want to join them. I believe in our constitution and our way of life. I believe in walking the walk and talking the talk. We become no better than them if we become like them.
    Yes. One shouldn't use the example of their power; they should use the power of their example.

    It isn't our job/duty to be the policeman of the world. It also isn't ok to lie and say that we conducted certain actions behind the cloak of serving as the police in effect...when in actuality the real reason(s) have nothing to do with that.

    I didn't say we should wage an all out full military invasion of a foreign nation to go after the terrorists...there are other means to accomplish this I'm sure you are fully aware of. The invasion of Iraq to remove Sadaam and the war on terror are different in that one required a full military invasion to remove a sadistic leader that had defied countless UN resolutions. In the case with the terrorists, we are not trying to take down a government since the Taliban has been removed from governing Afghanistan to some degree or occupying a nation. We are trying to destroy their training camps, the terrorists and their leaders.
    Astonishing. My point ties into what exelant said above; if we're going to carry out military operations/sanctions/diplomatic wrestling because a country and/or its leader has checked off the entire checklist of reasons to go into their country to 'liberate' and 'police' it...then surely many other countries who meet that checklist should be gone into as well according to that methodology.

    You speak of countries and their leaders breaking and acting counter to U.N. security resolutions...do you realize just how many countries do the same at the expense of human lives? (Israel, North Korea, etc.).

    Btw; no...removing Saddam didn't require the magnitiude and degree of assault on an entire country; and the sacrifice of civilian and American lives.
    03-02-09 01:43 PM
  6. Mr Bigs's Avatar
    Yes. One shouldn't use the example of their power; they should use the power of their example.

    It isn't our job/duty to be the policeman of the world. It also isn't ok to lie and say that we conducted certain actions behind the cloak of serving as the police in effect...when in actuality the real reason(s) have nothing to do with that.


    Astonishing. My point ties into what exelant said above; if we're going to carry out military operations/sanctions/diplomatic wrestling because a country and/or its leader has checked off the entire checklist of reasons to go into their country to 'liberate' and 'police' it...then surely many other countries who meet that checklist should be gone into as well according to that methodology.

    You speak of countries and their leaders breaking and acting counter to U.N. security resolutions...do you realize just how many countries do the same at the expense of human lives? (Israel, North Korea, etc.).

    Btw; no...removing Saddam didn't require the magnitiude and degree of assault on an entire country; and the sacrifice of civilian and American lives.
    One thing I would like to add is your going to declare war on terrorism then you have to bring it to everybody who practices terrorism to show sincerity.
    03-02-09 03:16 PM
  7. drjay868's Avatar
    It's the question that draws me, Doc. Our's is the fundamental debate from the founding of our Republic. While I staked out a position, I do believe the solution to the economic problems we face lay somewhere between us.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    On that, we actually agree, and I just hope that those in power realize the same thing.
    03-02-09 03:50 PM
  8. roeod4's Avatar
    Now I have read some funny threads before, but this one tops the list.

    People calling others greedy because they don't want the Government to take from them? Greedy because they work hard and at the end of the day they feel that the fruits of that labor should be theirs and not just given to others on a whim? However, at the same time there are those that feel people should get things like universal health care and have to do nothing for it? Tell me, is greedy to want to keep what you earned or is it greedy to want something for nothing?

    I have also enjoyed the racial dynamic that just had to come up because someone dislikes Obama. I guess it is some sort of guilt that every white person feels deep down that forces them to make statements like "I'm not a racist, but....." if they disagree/dislike something that involves any other race. Well, I am not racist either, but I hate country music. It is the simple fact that Obama being black ever became an issue that just shows how far from "progressive" (to use Tlynnsmith's words) we actually are. Everyone should really get over the whole race issue and move on. There is a black man in the white house and if you have issue with that sentence then you actually are a racist...please seek help of a mental nature.

    As for the politics I say NoBama, but then again I also say NoMoMcain, NoClinton and NoBush as well. I am fed up with Democomplaints and Republican'ts and I think the whole lot should be kicked out of Washington and we should start over. I'm sick of hearing/reading people talk about this being this President or that President's fault, no it's the Democrats or the Conservatives fault blah blah blah. It doesn't matter who you chose to blame, they are all guilty of doing the wrong thing when it comes to this country.

    Oh, and since everyone keeps bringing up the mortgage problems I think we need to have a little more common sense and personal responsibility. Not everything that has happened to everyone in this country lately has been someone else's fault. Someone signing a mortgage for a million dollars when they have an annual income of $20k is cruel predatory lending on the part of the mortgage company. However when that person sees the new neighborhood they are moving into and every house has a brand new Lexus, Mercedes, BMW or Ferrari in the driveway and they are driving a 25th hand '75 AMC Gremlin an alarm bell should go off somewhere in the tiny thing that they refer to as a brain.

    Personally I think that everyone is entitled their own opinion, no matter how wrong they actually are . That's my opinion anyway.
    03-02-09 05:48 PM
  9. Blahzee's Avatar
    uh... obama is only half black, and was raised by white people.
    so nobody shouldnt dislike him because of wether he is black or white.
    03-02-09 05:55 PM
  10. Blahzee's Avatar
    Semantics. I don't expect the president to mirror my values. He's the president of a country, that holds people from all walks of life, perspectives, beliefs, etc. This country is not a "Christian" nation, despite what you may have been led to believe. I say "may", because you may actually understand that. God has given man the ability to choose. I can't choose for the country. I don't want to.

    I don't care about how the president feels about gay marriage or abortion. I really don't. The world will do what it does. Again, I think a lot of our battles are not well thought out which is why I can't think of one "Christian conservative" I'd want to head this country. Focus is too narrow, heads are buried way to deep in the sand heavenly minded, but absolutely NO earthly good...and that's for the ones who actually ARE Christian.

    Republicans know the "hot buttons" to push, to get the conservative Christian vote, yet I honestly don't think they care anymore about the "unborn" than the rest. Values? They cheat, lie, adulterate, and steal...and change hats, once they get in office, just like every other politician. The system is corrupt, from the git-go. WWJD? Not join the republican party (NOR the democrats), you best believe that.

    The church has failed, and we want the government to be the moral police, and take away one of God's greatest gifts to mankind the ability to...choose, EVEN when the choice is not of God. It's not going to happen. Just as God doesn't dwell in big stone buildings, and silver chalices and the traditions of men, the government will NEVER be what the church was meant to be.

    Be a light (quit doin' the same stuff everybody else is doing, so people will see a difference not "you", anyone), and let the light enlighten and allow God to change the hearts of folks THEN we will see real "change". God is sovereign. I believe that.

    Peace...I'm out! Oh...and sorry about my misquote..."true conservative"...not "honest" conservative.
    do you believe jesus died for our sins?
    03-02-09 06:09 PM
  11. Tlynnsmith's Avatar
    do you believe jesus died for our sins?
    Yes. Do you?
    03-02-09 06:10 PM
  12. Blahzee's Avatar
    Yes. Do you?
    of course! by the way i like your blog, your a very smart lady.
    03-02-09 06:13 PM
  13. Tlynnsmith's Avatar
    of course! by the way i like your blog, your a very smart lady.
    Thanks, love!
    03-02-09 06:14 PM
  14. Blahzee's Avatar
    your welcome.
    03-02-09 06:17 PM
  15. drjay868's Avatar
    While I voted McCain, it was only because I felt he was the lesser of two evils (don't over analyze "evil"). I actaully consider myself an independant (not Independant Party -- just independant), I just have more in common with the conservative side than I do the liberal side (or any of the other candidates running).

    Until we have more than two parties get a serious look from everyone, the media and the US people, we're never going to really get anywhere. Its only going to breed more of these conversations. I know we have more paties, but for the most part they don't get any respect. I'm guessing its because their views are considered extreme for most of the people in this country.

    What do you all think would help this? How about free radio and tv air time for politicians who have made their party's ticket. Equal time for Obama/Biden, McCain/Palin, Baldwin/Castle, McKinney/Clemente, Barr/Root, and Nader/Gonzalez.

    Of course there would have to be some restrictions/policies in place so there wouldn't be 200 candidates running, but give the people more options to choose from that are going to get a serious say. And from that I mean Barr raises $1million dollars to spend on advertising and travelling, but Obama raises $745million. Who do you think you're going to hear more from?
    Last edited by drjay868; 03-02-09 at 06:40 PM.
    03-02-09 06:34 PM
  16. zoi's Avatar
    Thanks, love!


    I love how you're kissing people's .***' because they agree with you.
    You don't respect ANYONE with an opinion against Obama, but the second someone agrees with you you're all on their dicks.

    You need to calm down, miss.
    03-02-09 07:37 PM
  17. Storm7's Avatar
    I'm trying to wrap my mind around a Christian who's for killing and torturing suspects, and another who worries a person could be a Hitler or worse because he cares about the less fortunate and wants those who can afford it to pay a little bit more. And both probably don't believe a Democrat could possibly be a Christian. I keep waiting for Rod Serling to show up and introduce this episode of the Twilight Zone,

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    What, would you like for the terrorists to be arrested on the battlefield and read miranda rights? Sorry, that's not going to happen.
    03-02-09 08:01 PM
  18. Storm7's Avatar
    Doesn't that blow your mind? BTW, I'm not talking about "Storm7" or anyone in particular. I'm talking in general conversations I've had with many conservatives they'll battle for the unborn, but they don't seem to be as concerned about those who are already here, who experience atrocities at the hands of "conservatives". That's ungodly, unholy, and unbelievable.
    Now come on, let's be real, "Atrocities at the hands of conservatives?" What are you talking about?
    03-02-09 08:04 PM
  19. Blahzee's Avatar
    I love how you're kissing people's .***' because they agree with you.
    You don't respect ANYONE with an opinion against Obama, but the second someone agrees with you you're all on their dicks.

    You need to calm down, miss.
    Whoa whoa! you need to calm down young lady dont jump to conclusions, you dont know what your talking about.
    03-02-09 08:07 PM
  20. jdoc77's Avatar
    Doesn't that blow your mind? BTW, I'm not talking about "Storm7" or anyone in particular. I'm talking in general — conversations I've had with many conservatives — they'll battle for the unborn, but they don't seem to be as concerned about those who are already here, who experience atrocities at the hands of "conservatives". That's ungodly, unholy, and unbelievable.
    I can answer this. I'm no good "christian" .. but ethics (and religion) teaches that the unborn have no culpability for what they have "done" while those who are past the age of "consent" have responsibility for what they have done.

    And google "conservative charity" or some such. It's proven that conservatives are more generous with money and blood donations for example.

    And before you start talking about conservative atrocities, remember who ended the cold war (Reagan) and who dropped the atomic bomb (Truman), and started and escalated the Vietnam war (JFK and LBJ) ... and who brought us the Iran Hostages by feigning weakness in the region (inviting the Shah to seek asylum here) ... do a body count. Conservatives aren't losing that battle in the long run.

    It's never as simple as you want it to be.
    03-02-09 08:29 PM
  21. Blahzee's Avatar
    sometimes you have to be conservative, but no matter what you should always do the right thing.
    03-02-09 08:53 PM
  22. thinkamp's Avatar
    I love how you're kissing people's .***' because they agree with you.
    You don't respect ANYONE with an opinion against Obama, but the second someone agrees with you you're all on their dicks.

    You need to calm down, miss.
    good call +1 for you!!
    03-02-09 08:58 PM
  23. jdoc77's Avatar
    sometimes you have to be conservative, but no matter what you should always do the right thing.
    That's true. I think being a moderate is kind of a weenie way out... I am a strange conservative. No problem with abortion, gay rights and drugs (alcohol is worse than anything besides crack and heroin by a long shot), highly insistent on a strong military and constitution. Low taxes, small government... I'm a bit Libertarian, actually. I think teaching people to fish is always better than giving them fish, but sometimes you gotta give fish away too.
    03-02-09 09:48 PM
  24. Blahzee's Avatar
    yea i kind of feel the same. i dont really know what i would be, maybe an independant. i guess i was just raised to always do whats right, but it really depends on the situation. idk.
    03-02-09 10:02 PM
  25. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    I think teaching people to fish is always better than giving them fish, but sometimes you gotta give fish away too.
    I say if your going to give, give worms. Let them decide whether to eat bait or fish.
    03-02-09 10:02 PM
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