03-08-09 01:51 PM
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  1. Fence's Avatar
    jdoc; I'm going to use your field of work as an example to illustrate 'spreading the wealth'. Don't view this from the perspective of what a typical resident earns ($45,000-50,000 I gather; perhaps more if you blue-light)...view this after it is all said and done. On average; physicians are paid quite handsomely (especially if you're dealing in a specialty). Why do doctors make what they do; just as why a lot of other professionals (engineers, lawyers, etc.) make what they do? Well in the case of physicians; they earn what they do because of strong and persistent lobbying for physicians over the past 40 years that has elevated their pay to the amount it has.


    On the flipside; healthcare-related costs cause thousands to go bankrupt each year. How does this tie into physicians, every other person and spreading the wealth? Well doctors don't earn the salary they do because of 'hard work' per se; because surely MANY other fields of work (whether it be blue or white collar)...put in just as much work/hard work and time into what they do.

    So perhaps the structure of salaries should be overhauled so that the component of healthcare-costs that physicians contribute to the equation...will leave more money in the pockets of people who pay an arm, leg and an eye for healthcare as it is. Why can't 'spreading the wealth' be looked at it that way?
    03-08-09 12:00 AM
  2. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    Doc don't hurt him, he knows not what he speaks! Seems like a good kid though.
    03-08-09 12:07 AM
  3. Fence's Avatar
    BigBadWolf...if you only knew a shred of what the source of the sense I make comes from; you'd retract the cheerleading words you give to your buddy jdoc. You seem like a good brown'noser though.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    03-08-09 12:20 AM
  4. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    Easy bud, the amount of school and expense there of, is just a portion of the cost that makes a doctors wages so high. Tie in the insurance costs, and constantly improving equipment they have to have and your starting to get a good idea. They're also usually required to take Medicare/Medicaid patients, programs which reimburse very little, so they have losses to make up. Then there's the other costs involved in health, such as ever advancing medications that take a tremendous amount of research to develop, and inevitable law suits from side effects.
    Generally, the higher the skill set, the higher the pay. I'm sure the guy at your local garage works his tail off, but until he can build like Chip Foose, he's just not going to make that kind of money. Now play nice, I wasn't kissing his a**, I was asking him not to rip yours!
    03-08-09 12:36 AM
  5. Fence's Avatar
    Easy bud, the amount of school and expense there of, is just a portion of the cost that makes a doctors wages so high.
    I reiterate; I was simply using one profession (of many) as an example. Physician salaries pretty much stay constant for as long as they practice...medical school debt ( debt associated w/ school is something I am all too familiar with ) doesn't. The debt incurred can be paid off in a given number of years. So this point to your rebuttal is weak.

    Tie in the insurance costs, and constantly improving equipment they have to have and your starting to get a good idea.
    Malpractice insurance premiums are high no doubt; especially as it fluctuates depending on the specialty (e.g. Anesthesiologist/OB-Gyn)...however the insurance component of it should not be passed onto the patients who have a hard enough time to pay their personal/family insurance as it is...whereas physicians probably don't have to worry about how to pay for their monthly premiums (worrying about paying a premium is different from worrying about getting sued...trust me).

    As far as the insurance/equipment costs goes...this shows that the entire top-down component of our healthcare system is gouging the average American. So don't just be hung-up on one one component of healthcare (Physician salary)...think about the overall picture of it; that's my point. Reduction in the cost of the components that comprise healthcare would in turn reduce the OVERALL cost of healthcare. This would put more money in the pockets of consumers.

    They're also usually required to take Medicare/Medicaid patients, programs which reimburse very little, so they have losses to make up. Then there's the other costs involved in health, such as ever advancing medications that take a tremendous amount of research to develop, and inevitable law suits from side effects.
    Reimbursement of Medicare/Medicaid is a fairly 'recent' phenomenon that has been successfuly lobbied from advocates for the elderly/less advantaged to tackle high costs of healthcare. The 'losses' you speak of; are losses that a lot of physicians want to recoup to sustain the lifestyle that the unwarranted high salary has spoiled and afforded them with. And since you mention R&D through pharmaceutical companies for example; the cost of R&D is another component similar to insurance/medical equipment that needs to be overhauled.

    Lawsuits and litigation that arise out of possible side effects connected to drugs? That is a a different beast within the pharmaceutical-industry that shouldn't be passed down (but is)...it should be swallowed as cost of doing business. The pharmaceutical companies are one of the biggest (if not THE biggest) pirates in the healthcare spectrum.

    Generally, the higher the skill set, the higher the pay.
    I know this Captain Obvious; which is the basis of my point exactly. Why do you say the 'higher the skill set, the higher the pay'? Because the lobbyists have set it this way to the point it has people like you even accepting it. Knowledge is not a skill by the way. A surgeon that uses his knowledge to CONVERT his/her knowledge of fixing/repairing...that conversion is when it becomes a skill. Not all doctors are surgeons .

    I'm sure the guy at your local garage works his tail off, but until he can build like Chip Foose, he's just not going to make that kind of money. Now play nice, I wasn't kissing his a**, I was asking him not to rip yours!
    Haha; what does 'playing nice' have to do with it? Simply because you're throwing some words out there; and I counter...you call that not playing nice. I call it a discussion.

    So now you're his personal counsel on top of being his cheerleader by saying that you were instructing him not to 'rip' my a**? How cute. Now, now...since you're telling me to play nice; how about you play nice in the sandbox you're more familiar with (and should stick with)...rather than chartering territory that'll rip you a new one.

    If that were to happen; the ensuing medical bills wouldn't be cheap...just looking out for you bud.
    Last edited by Fence; 03-08-09 at 01:20 AM.
    03-08-09 01:17 AM
  6. Slingbox's Avatar
    Government running health care wont make it better ,it will complicate it more.

    A simple fix to health care -Cut out government waste
    Those in power are loading their pockets with are money then wanting to take more for are health care dreams which is unacceptable.
    Insurance Companies are out of control!! , Drug Companies are gauging consumers!!If government wants to place some regulation on them I'm all for it.


    Good stuff
    Insider's Rx For Drug Costs - CBS News



    Fence ,whats up with your avatar...is that a prison fence?
    Last edited by Slingbox; 03-08-09 at 04:07 AM.
    03-08-09 03:24 AM
  7. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    Fence, if you want to advocate for equal pay regardless of skill/knowledge, that's fine. It will only serve to reduce the desire to achieve. It's called communism, and while it works in theory, it never works in practice.
    03-08-09 07:03 AM
  8. Fence's Avatar
    Government running health care wont make it better ,it will complicate it more.
    What does government running healthcare have anything to do with my point?? If you read my words and the point they're making...I'm simply stating that lowering the costs of certain components of 'doing business' in particular fields...it will put more money in the pockets of Americans (spreading the wealth this way).

    A simple fix to health care -Cut out government waste
    Those in power are loading their pockets with are money then wanting to take more for are health care dreams which is unacceptable.
    Insurance Companies are out of control!! , Drug Companies are gauging consumers!!If government wants to place some regulation on them I'm all for it.
    I agree with the above; I would also like to add that it isn't just about cutting gov't waste; not succumbing to certain lobbyists at the expense of the cost of healthcare...needs to be done

    Fence ,whats up with your avatar...is that a prison fence?
    No; just a fence. Disappointed?

    Fence, if you want to advocate for equal pay regardless of skill/knowledge, that's fine. It will only serve to reduce the desire to achieve. It's called communism, and while it works in theory, it never works in practice.
    Who said anything about 'equal' pay regardless of knowledge and skill? Surely not me. When I stated that compensation in salary should be adjusted down; along with adjusting all the other components of healthcare...it doesn't equate to me saying everyone should be paid the same.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    03-08-09 09:23 AM
  9. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    Fence, I'm trying to follow you, it's probably me.
    You said that knowledge is not a skill. Does that mean a teacher is not a skill position? Would that mean that Einstein had no skills.
    You also said that insurance and lawsuits should not figure into pricing. How can you pick and choose which costs to factor into a P&L. Don't all costs have to be incorporated to factor market price? It has in every business I've run.
    Finally, it would be nice to lower the costs of developing products. How would you suggest that be done?
    03-08-09 10:55 AM
  10. Fence's Avatar
    Fence, I'm trying to follow you, it's probably me.
    You said that knowledge is not a skill. Does that mean a teacher is not a skill position? Would that mean that Einstein had no skills.
    Having knowledge simply itself is not an inherent skill. However when knowledge is applied; that is when it converts into a skill. I understand that the entire skill angle to the discussion is something you brought up. You stated that people should be recompensed according to their skill-level; I agree with that. However my notion is that society should do a paradigm shift as to how much certain people are accustomed to being paid for their level of skill (because of lobbyists and bureaucracy).

    It doesn't make sense that people are going bankrupt paying for medical care that is partly so high because of sustaining this high cost environment that healthcare has lobbied its way into.

    You also said that insurance and lawsuits should not figure into pricing. How can you pick and choose which costs to factor into a P&L. Don't all costs have to be incorporated to factor market price? It has in every business I've run.
    As I said; to subsidize costs such as insurance and legal fees being incorporated into healthcare costs at the amount they are...these components (insurance/legal feels being just two of many) should be revamped as well. As I had also said; the entire healthcare system needs an overhal from the top-down or bottom-up. To me...acceptance of things based on 'just how things are/work'...shouldn't be acceptable itself. Just as how people over the years have made such practices commonplace and acceptable...why can't society reverse the trend that has made such things as being 'the norm'?

    Finally, it would be nice to lower the costs of developing products. How would you suggest that be done?
    By lowering the cost of every aspect that goes into developing the services/products. It's a matter of efficiency in the supply chain/operations of the healthcare system.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    03-08-09 11:49 AM
  11. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    Yes, I do believe that insurance regulation, enacted by congress, and I'm sure involving lobbyists has contributed greatly to the overall cost. If people had to pay out of pocket, they would shop, and the competition would cause the price to go down.
    It hasn't been a matter of excepting what is though, the medical industry has evolved due to government, and almost everything they have done to curb costs has had the opposite result. Take Hillary Clinton's regulation on the vaccine industry. She wrote and got passed law to regulate the pricing. That in turn caused fewer manufacturers to make vaccines, and a severe shortage a few years ago. Then the government had to step in again and make up costs to manufacturers to get them to generate enough to keep up with demand. We all paid, and the price is higher today because of the reduction in competition. Or the doctor who wanted to charge a flat rate per month to his clients, and they could see him as often as they wished, and use any service he offered. He was not allowed even though it would have saved them money, because it would be considered insurance and he's not licensed to sell that.
    Pretty much it's all about deregulation and good old capitalist competition in my book. Get the government more involved and you'll get lower quality and higher costs.
    03-08-09 12:21 PM
  12. Slingbox's Avatar
    What does government running healthcare have anything to do with my point?? If you read my words and the point they're making...I'm simply stating that lowering the costs of certain components of 'doing business' in particular fields...it will put more money in the pockets of Americans (spreading the wealth this way).
    Never said it had anything to do with your point , i was just venting at 4am in the mourning kicking you the fence question at end of post.


    I agree with the above; I would also like to add that it isn't just about cutting gov't waste; not succumbing to certain lobbyists at the expense of the cost of healthcare...needs to be done
    +1


    No; just a fence. Disappointed?
    Just curious , Ive never seen such picture as avatar ,maybe you did time..out on parole lol
    Last edited by Slingbox; 03-08-09 at 01:57 PM.
    03-08-09 01:51 PM
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