12-27-11 08:32 PM
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  1. Kendom's Avatar
    I am a new poster on this forum but a frequent lurker.

    I have a Blackberry Playbook 32g and a Torch. I live out of the US and I am no fanboy.

    It has become pretty obvious to me that lately, technology reviews and debate on the internet and technology space has entered a fever pitch of parochialism.

    That Apple has a fine product library is obvious. Apple also is one of the biggest price gouging companies in the history of price gouging. They use a strategy which is almost Machiavellian in its execution. They have produced a brand with tremendous brand equity which people pay a premium to be associated with. Yet they produce their products for veritable peanuts in the same Chinese factories so many people like to denigrate.

    Like Nokia before them, and like Samsung (whose every mistake is amplified) Rim is not an American company. Those of you who are wondering whats the relevance dont understand the fanboy nature of most of the technology media. Engadget, BGR, Gizmodo etc etc dominate the websphere in terms of pushing perception across. And therefore perception has become reality. The serious technology writers for the market publications, the Forbes, WSJ, NYT, UK Guardian et al are little different. They exist within a sphere of influence. Kudos to Apple for having found that weakness.

    The other reality is that the Playbook is the most functionally sound tablet out there, (I have had the Ipad 2 and the Galaxy) with some gaps which left it compromised and open to a savage reception by a protectionist American technology media and capital markets.

    Even with phones, RIM is being attacked in the US, but outside of the US, RIM DOMINATES. WHy ? The iphone is not practical, as pretty and as trendy as it is, because of its fragility and of course its COST. In the US, with a higher GDP and an aggressive brand profile, Apple is King. It is THE American technology company heading off RIm, Nokia, Samsung and the other foreign hordes.

    But...."Americans dont care about these things", you say. Of course they dont. Americans are the fairest consumers on planet earth. They are also the most fragile consumers on earth, at the behest of the media telling them that they have to get an Ipad 2 and an Ipad 3 because it has LOADS of apps. And they are now being bombarded with "Rim is dead and dying" commentary.

    The truth is, there is a place for everyone in the market. But as you have seen, Apple is not about co-existing. Not in the film business (where they are king of product placement and are aided by a Hollywood who appreciates Apples generosity), not in the product blog reviews, where the tech writers are feted and adorned with apple products. And certainly not by the market traders who continue to pump the Apple stock.

    The point is, the Playbook is a great device, and RIM have made some serious strategic and marketing mistakes, but none of that has harmed its international business. In the US, those mistakes have been fatal.

    I just wanted to point out that despite what is said out there, the Playbook is a fantastic device. Continue to pressure RIM to improve it, continue to show it to your friends and family, and continue to pressure companies to support it.
    12-26-11 02:01 PM
  2. Kendom's Avatar
    The point is, the Playbook is a great device, and RIM have made some serious strategic and marketing mistakes....

    Please note.
    Willard814 and CJH315 like this.
    12-26-11 02:29 PM
  3. jamesharmeling's Avatar
    Thank you for sharing your opinion, most of which I agree with. What you describes happens in a smaller way everytime my kids pick somewhere to eat, the clothes they want, etc.. Marketing, opinion writers and exposure count quite a bit.
    Willard814 likes this.
    12-26-11 07:07 PM
  4. jcbrunson's Avatar
    Agreed, but to a point. RIM only dropped the PB price last month. Before then, the PB was just as overpriced as the ipad.
    Willard814, ralfyguy and JeffyPooh like this.
    12-26-11 07:25 PM
  5. anthogag's Avatar
    Apple (Jobs) hired marketing firms a long time ago and it shows. Everything they do reeks of applied marketing strategies and methods. I think that's the Jobs legacy.

    I'm assuming Jobs had many discussions with marketing firm executives about how to apply marketing knowledge towards the design and sale of their products. Maybe that's where the idea of 99 cent apps came from or Jobs' spectacular one-man product introductions
    12-26-11 09:22 PM
  6. Dapper37's Avatar
    The American media, has the ability to sell their perspective around the world due to size and influence. They circled the wagons around the home town hero's a long time ago. since 2008 they have been selling their perspective to the American homeland and the rest of the world as much as they can..
    12-26-11 10:41 PM
  7. Dale Thomas's Avatar
    I am a new poster on this forum but a frequent lurker.

    I have a Blackberry Playbook 32g and a Torch. I live out of the US and I am no fanboy.

    It has become pretty obvious to me that lately, technology reviews and debate on the internet and technology space has entered a fever pitch of parochialism.

    That Apple has a fine product library is obvious. Apple also is one of the biggest price gouging companies in the history of price gouging. They use a strategy which is almost Machiavellian in its execution. They have produced a brand with tremendous brand equity which people pay a premium to be associated with. Yet they produce their products for veritable peanuts in the same Chinese factories so many people like to denigrate.

    Like Nokia before them, and like Samsung (whose every mistake is amplified) Rim is not an American company. Those of you who are wondering whats the relevance dont understand the fanboy nature of most of the technology media. Engadget, BGR, Gizmodo etc etc dominate the websphere in terms of pushing perception across. And therefore perception has become reality. The serious technology writers for the market publications, the Forbes, WSJ, NYT, UK Guardian et al are little different. They exist within a sphere of influence. Kudos to Apple for having found that weakness.

    The other reality is that the Playbook is the most functionally sound tablet out there, (I have had the Ipad 2 and the Galaxy) with some gaps which left it compromised and open to a savage reception by a protectionist American technology media and capital markets.

    Even with phones, RIM is being attacked in the US, but outside of the US, RIM DOMINATES. WHy ? The iphone is not practical, as pretty and as trendy as it is, because of its fragility and of course its COST. In the US, with a higher GDP and an aggressive brand profile, Apple is King. It is THE American technology company heading off RIm, Nokia, Samsung and the other foreign hordes.

    But...."Americans dont care about these things", you say. Of course they dont. Americans are the fairest consumers on planet earth. They are also the most fragile consumers on earth, at the behest of the media telling them that they have to get an Ipad 2 and an Ipad 3 because it has LOADS of apps. And they are now being bombarded with "Rim is dead and dying" commentary.

    The truth is, there is a place for everyone in the market. But as you have seen, Apple is not about co-existing. Not in the film business (where they are king of product placement and are aided by a Hollywood who appreciates Apples generosity), not in the product blog reviews, where the tech writers are feted and adorned with apple products. And certainly not by the market traders who continue to pump the Apple stock.

    The point is, the Playbook is a great device, and RIM have made some serious strategic and marketing mistakes, but none of that has harmed its international business. In the US, those mistakes have been fatal.

    I just wanted to point out that despite what is said out there, the Playbook is a fantastic device. Continue to pressure RIM to improve it, continue to show it to your friends and family, and continue to pressure companies to support it.

    Let me make sure I get this right. Americans are by and large stupid, unable to think for themselves and led around by the nose by the all powerful media. That's how we make our purchasing decisions?


    It has nothing to do with the fact that RIM concentrated its energy on business consumers and security of data while other companies broadened thier salesbase by appealing to both younger and more tech savvy audience?

    Apple's succes is largely due to the fact that thier computers work without crashing and getting viruses and the phones have tens of thousands of applications that a majority of people want. That service and depth of choice comes at price and the public will pay it.

    RIM could have chosen a similar path as Apple and Android but instead chose the IBM approach figuring that all this "social media and app stuff" is just a phase. Like IBM who didn't realize that Personal Computers instead of Mainframes were the future, RIM didn't prepare.

    RIM just figured it would maintain its business customers. Nobody seemed to think long term that the up and coming crop of IT professionals would be young and hip and well versed in all things Apple. The IT guys are also the ones who have a big say in what equipment gets used in the business arena even though they normally are not in the field.

    Don't blame American stupidity or the media for Apple's success, Apple earned what it got because RIM was asleep, resting on its laurels. Apple was plugging along for years trying to build its rep.

    And no, I own no Apple products what so ever. I'm here because I always seem to tick when everyone else tocks.
    12-27-11 07:59 AM
  8. swiftex's Avatar

    Let me make sure I get this right. Americans are by and large stupid, unable to think for themselves and led around by the nose by the all powerful media. That's how we make our purchasing decisions?


    It has nothing to do with the fact that RIM concentrated its energy on business consumers and security of data while other companies broadened thier salesbase by appealing to both younger and more tech savvy audience?

    Apple's succes is largely due to the fact that thier computers work without crashing and getting viruses and the phones have tens of thousands of applications that a majority of people want. That service and depth of choice comes at price and the public will pay it.

    RIM could have chosen a similar path as Apple and Android but instead chose the IBM approach figuring that all this "social media and app stuff" is just a phase. Like IBM who didn't realize that Personal Computers instead of Mainframes were the future, RIM didn't prepare.

    RIM just figured it would maintain its business customers. Nobody seemed to think long term that the up and coming crop of IT professionals would be young and hip and well versed in all things Apple. The IT guys are also the ones who have a big say in what equipment gets used in the business arena even though they normally are not in the field.

    Don't blame American stupidity or the media for Apple's success, Apple earned what it got because RIM was asleep, resting on its laurels. Apple was plugging along for years trying to build its rep.

    And no, I own no Apple products what so ever. I'm here because I always seem to tick when everyone else tocks.

    IBM has stuck to the mainframe business and has done well.

    Very naive to underestimate the effect of media spin.

    Also, manufacturing offshore is the reason for the downfall of North America. Media has become the main industry of America.

    All this "social media and app stuff" is worthless after the dust settles.
    12-27-11 08:21 AM
  9. rvision's Avatar
    to the originator, RIM mainly dominate the business market globally compared to ios and android beacause of something called 'corporate liability' nothing to do with the platform. Firms generally need to control the device and data from risk, abuse, high data charges and misuse. although many businesses are now moving to enterprise 'sandbox' solutions on other platforms with a BYO 'buy your own' device purchase model. Ultimatly means its more cost effective for the firm, less corp blackberries, less bes licenses and further slides in market share for rim to come.
    12-27-11 08:52 AM
  10. jcbrunson's Avatar
    to the originator, RIM mainly dominate the business market globally compared to ios and android beacause of something called 'corporate liability' nothing to do with the platform. Firms generally need to control the device and data from risk, abuse, high data charges and misuse. although many businesses are now moving to enterprise 'sandbox' solutions on other platforms with a BYO 'buy your own' device purchase model. Ultimatly means its more cost effective for the firm, less corp blackberries, less bes licenses and further slides in market share for rim to come.
    Some true, but not all. Mobile Fusion is coming in 2012:
    BlackBerry - Mobile Fusion - Manage BlackBerry Apple iOS & Android Devices

    RIM is crossing the platforms, will include iOS, Android, BB, PB, etc.
    12-27-11 09:00 AM
  11. ralfyguy's Avatar
    I own a 16GB PB, bought it for $199 at Staples. That was on Tuesday after Cyber Monday. I wouldn't buy it for $499, because it is too much. Not because it sucks, but because $499 is too much for a 16GB tablet, especially with some of it's shortcomings. $199 for that makes me not care about the shortcomings it still has. These shortcomings are not that important to me. Now $699 for the same device with the same shortcomings and just more memory is nuts. Fortunately that price has been dropped, but a little too late.
    But $800 for a 64GB iPad is plain obscene! NO tablet is worth 800 bucks. For that money you can get a monster laptop with insane specs and capabilities that dwarfs any tablet, especially the bigger sized ones. To me a smaller sized laptop has the same portability as an lPad, but a real keyboard, a real browser and some serious hardware specs. Amd on top of it lacks the serious restrictions the IPad has.
    Obviously I am one of those where the hype marketing strategy of Jobs/Apple doesn't work. I couldn't care less. And it doesn't work with other products either. I always get what suits me best, not what society wants me to get.
    12-27-11 09:00 AM
  12. sam_b77's Avatar
    The OP makes some good points, but I would strongly disagree with one point the OP makes and that is that Apple is the most "price gauging" company.

    The mission of any business enterprise is to make profits and that too make maximum profits. What they do subsequently with the profits (philanthropy etc) is besides the point.

    Apple charges for a product they perceive to be unique and better than what their competitors offer. That maybe just their opinion and many people might disagree but its still their opinion and they charge a premium, if you want to call it that for said "better" products. The thing is that a LOT of people agree with Apple's opinion about their own devices as is evident from the people ready to pay that "premium".

    It just doesn't come down to manufacturing cost. You can't tell a company that they can only charge 15-30% above their manufacturing cost. The market determines what they can charge. If the market is willing to pay them 100% over their manufacturing cost then as a smart and true business they should charge that much. If there was some product that is perceived to be equally good then there would be a price war and the margins would shrink.

    Think of it this way, if I make something which the world wants and ONLY I know how to make it, then I will charge $1000 for it even if it only costs me $10 to make it. I'm not charging the customer for manufacturing effort but my skills and intellectual effort.
    Manufacturing cost is the least cost involved. The biggest premium is for the mindshare. And Apple values its mindshare much higher than other companies. And apparently Apple's customers agree.
    12-27-11 09:01 AM
  13. rvision's Avatar
    mobile fusion 2012 is late, 3rd parties (good & framehawk) to name a couple have been in the market for a couple of years and many firms have already invested heavily in infrastructure and licenses. confidence in rim is at an all time low and i dont see corps wanting to spend more cash on new licenses with rim in a hurry, not to mention rims history and ability to deliver it in 2012. just my opinion..
    12-27-11 09:10 AM
  14. ralfyguy's Avatar
    Well if people want to pay $800 for an iPad, then you can't blame them. As long as you find people thant want to pay that, there is no reason to lower the prices.
    12-27-11 09:12 AM
  15. jcbrunson's Avatar
    mobile fusion 2012 is late, 3rd parties (good & framehawk) to name a couple have been in the market for a couple of years and many firms have already invested heavily in infrastructure and licenses. confidence in rim is at an all time low and i dont see corps wanting to spend more cash on new licenses with rim in a hurry, not to mention rims history and ability to deliver it in 2012. just my opinion..
    Our company is waiting on Fusion. We have infinite confidence in RIM, none in the two you mentioned. This is once gain, perception v reality. RIM stock is still high with corporate email & communication.
    12-27-11 09:23 AM
  16. ralfyguy's Avatar
    It is the same as telling a Lexus owner that he should have gotten a Mercedes, so he can say he's got a Mercedes even if the Lexus was the better choice. But it had to be the Mercedes, he was willing to pay for the name.
    I would look at both and see which I like better. I see it as car A versus car B.
    Willard814 likes this.
    12-27-11 09:23 AM
  17. ADozenEggs@aol.com's Avatar

    All this "social media and app stuff" is worthless after the dust settles.
    Tell that to the Libya, tell that to Iran, tell that to Egypt and to the Occupy Wall Street Movement. Tell that to the people all over the world who have used "Social Media" to spread their movement through their cell phones and tablets.

    Don't disregard Social Media simply because you're not participating in it.
    Willard814 likes this.
    12-27-11 09:32 AM
  18. pkcable's Avatar
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    jcbrunson likes this.
    12-27-11 10:08 AM
  19. Lead_Express's Avatar
    The conspiracy theorist in me wants to agree with the OP but my inner-realist knows it can't be true. While surely some influence is commanded by American media, we can't blame the entirety, or even a majority, of RIMs woes on that factor. Why can't we just accept the fact that Apple makes a great smartphone, a great tablet, and a great multimedia device? Couldn't that have something to do with its popularity? The American consumer might be trendy but not dumb enough to buy a trendy product for 4 straight years if all that product has to offer is fad appeal. No, RIM does well in other nations because it is the best device to be found in those nations. In America we have more choices and, thus, people can buy what appeals to their lifestyle most. For the average consumer, an iphone has everything they could want from a phone and an ipad has everything they could want in a tablet. While, to be honest, a Blackberry probably has everything a consumer could need, RIM doesn't currently offer a device with complete funcionality and universal appeal like Apple does-except, IMHO, the Playbook (once 2.0 is actually released to the masses.)
    12-27-11 10:08 AM
  20. OMGitworks's Avatar
    Please don't blame the media for this. RIM is digging their own holes on these issues. They have done plenty to ruin a great business, they didn't need any help from the media. I don't like Apple products, but good for them if they can get millions of people to "overpay" for their devices. That is how business works. Businesses don't try ot "co-exist" as you wrote they try to take each others market share. I am American (though it shouldn't matter) and I don't let Apple blindly sell me "overpriced things." Don't hate on their economic success. I like my PB but it does have shortcomings which some of the media has fairly reported on. Apologizing for RIM's shortcomings is lame no matter how many paragraph and explanations you offer. Saying you are not a fan boy and then posting what you did is a bit of a stretch too. Just try to let it be and the market will sort it all out.

    Accept that people can buy whatever they want to buy. If they are "stupid" enough to buy an Apple product then so be it, just please don't blame the media or the American consumers for it, blame RIM for trying to sell an overpriced, under-performing tablet on release day and for squandering a major hold they hand on business phones by being so complacent - that is reality.
    Dale Thomas and FF22 like this.
    12-27-11 10:08 AM
  21. jcbrunson's Avatar
    The ipad is a sweet device. The PB is a sweet device. We're just cheapskates. I paid 50 for my Torch and 250 for my PB32. Thats 300 for sweetness, way less than iproducts. Couldn't be happier with those purchases.
    kbz1960 likes this.
    12-27-11 10:33 AM
  22. JeffyPooh's Avatar
    As was mentioned above, the RIM PlayBooks initially followed pretty much exactly the same price $500+ points as the Apple iPads. There was a slight price delta, but not enough to matter. The RIM fire sale changed the value equation.

    The Lexus/Mercedes comparison was apt. People assume that Mercedes are significantly more expensive than Lexus. In fact, there's not THAT much difference. I'd even consider a Lexus if they knock 60% off the price.
    12-27-11 10:36 AM
  23. rvision's Avatar
    for me i lost confidence when they came out all guns blazing with this 'enterprise ready' tablet that i 'should have waited' for only to then hear from their head of marketing that 'its work in progress' and 'if i want to come along for the ride' now if id known that on day 1 id be waiting a year or if i can have my $300 rebate back for this dev project im back with you. least i could also paid for a fully functional device in the first place.
    12-27-11 10:59 AM
  24. jcbrunson's Avatar
    for me i lost confidence when they came out all guns blazing with this 'enterprise ready' tablet that i 'should have waited' for only to then hear from their head of marketing that 'its work in progress' and 'if i want to come along for the ride' now if id known that on day 1 id be waiting a year or if i can have my $300 rebate back for this dev project im back with you. least i could also paid for a fully functional device in the first place.
    I've said this before - shame on RIM for the "must have BB" condition of the 2011 PB. But that is changing in 2012. Also note all the peeps buying 2, 3 PBs lately. Some dude posted yesterday that he bought 11 as gifts! What if buzz for the PB brings back the BB7 business?
    12-27-11 11:12 AM
  25. rvision's Avatar
    I've said this before - shame on RIM for the "must have BB" condition of the 2011 PB. But that is changing in 2012. Also note all the peeps buying 2, 3 PBs lately. Some dude posted yesterday that he bought 11 as gifts! What if buzz for the PB brings back the BB7 business?
    and for me right now 'i will never buy another rim product again' sad but true. pb was the last. if work give me one for sure ill use, but im converted. have to go with the best product of the moment, lifes to short.
    12-27-11 11:21 AM
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