[shylard]

Amen to Hi-Definition. That is truth! I usually don't like to discuss politics, because it's a choice everyone has to make for themselves, on their own, but this is a great medium to voice your opinion & everyone is doing it in a respectful manner.

I'm an Obama supporter all day. He IS the American dream and gives us all hope and faith that we can make our dreams a reality, too. Plus, Michelle is so real, I want to be her when I grow up!

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[jrau13]

Andy, that story about not putting his hand over his heart was made up and didn't happen. I don't ever remember seeing him without a flag pin. People who want to use hatred to get people to vote against someone start these rumors because they are hard to refute. But think about it logically, there is no way in h3ll Obama would forget to do either.

Andy, I am a veteran and I love my country. I don't know anyone more supportive of our military than me and I often forget my flag pin. It isn't a true gauge of how someone feels about America. To be an educated voter you have to be able to tell fact from fiction.

A good example of this is the Al Gore and internet story. How many times have you heard that Al Gore said he invented the internet? The Right wing loves to tell this story and laugh at Gore, the only problem is that it never happened. **** Armey started this rumor on a Fox show to discredit Al Gore.

I'd say it has been pretty effective because so many people believe it happened. The real truth is that Al Gore pushed funding for the forerunner of the internet as a way to assist research well before anyone knew what the internet would become. He never, ever said he invented the internet.

Make up your mind about who you want to vote for based on what you think to be right, but be careful. Many would tell you anything to get you to vote the way they want you to. Use your intellect to see through the BS and get to the truth.

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I do think the flag pin is a waste of time but this is the best explanation of why its ridiculous.

[Hi-Definition]

That Bill Maher snippet was pretty funny; truth is often relayed the best through comedic medium...because people tend to take it a bit less personal :-).

People; God has given you intellect to use it towards your own discretion on decisions in life...how we live is one big decision every second of everyday. Therefore, we make decisions every nanosecond of our life even when we don't realize it.

Let's not be like sheep and base our decisions based on the information others feed us...w/o seeking the knowledge ourselves. A decision-maker that bases his/her decisions off the decisions of others...is neglecting their god-given intellect. God gave us a brain so that it can be put to use; so give it a workout on our own accord as individuals; rather than getting it worked out from personal trainers.

Take what you see, what you hear and what you read...and seek further. Without seeking further; you're just stuck with what's been given to you.

Need proof of how everyone of you reading this has potential for that potential to be realized in the form of casting a smart/well-informed/educated vote on November 4th?? Well for starters...you're BlackBerry owners :-). And for those of you who aren't BB owners yet; just have to realize that potential that lays dormant in you...whether it comes to a phone, your vote and your amazing God-given brain.

[jrau13]

^^^^ I agree and I think that is why I am still undecided but leaning in a certain direction.

[mrlee2k8]

12 pages...not bad...almost 90 votes...alot of CBers undecided?

[wnm]

I was pretty sure you wouldn't get 300,000 votes in the poll. It's early. Hopefully the thread will continue and we can encourage people to vote even if they don't post.

[exelant]

Lots of good opinion, too, Lee. It is good a lot of name calling has stayed away from this thread.

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[TerryA]

Food for thought.

[csierra72#CB]

Food for thought.

That's a nice ad and all but I have several friends and families members there who don't share the sentiments of the young man in the clip.

[wnm]

So why haven't we sent troops into Darfur, or Myanmar, or North Korea, or Somalia, or just about every other place in the world that is suffering from tyranny? Because these countries don't fit into the grand plan to change the middle east and Islam. Oh and there's no oil either.

What is said in the ad may be true, but that doesn't change the fact that we never should have gone in in the first place, and that 8 months after the surge was supposed to end, the Iraq Government (not the people) have not done what we were told the would do if security was improved.

[Hi-Definition]

Food for thought.

The FACT is that the premise of going into Iraq was because they have "WMD"s. Another FACT is that this premise was not factual whatsoever. Do you; or anyone else...not agree?

I have talked w/ many soldiers that have served in Iraq; and many of them feel they were betrayed into the conflict. Their job is to heed the commands of the commander-in-chief (President of the U.S.). Soldiers are meant to go on a mission that is based on facts; and that is based on the truth.

So since the underlying principles of the foundation (facts, truth, factual evidence, factual threat) were fabricated; is it not a mistake to have gone into Iraq based on this? The word mistake is one word of many other words using semantics that can be applied to the war in Iraq.

Time and time again Obama has praised the duty that the soldiers have carried out; afterall...as I outlined above; it's the soldiers job to do as they're told. But when the heirarchy (Bush/Cheney/Administration) that's telling these soldiers what to do; is doing so based on a mirage of facts...should the blame not go on the administration for the blood of soldiers and civilians that have been cast because of this decision carried out in 2001?

I ask these as rhetorical questions; because if anyone considers themselves an upright human being; an American...then they would know the answers to these questions; and will act accordingly.

So why haven't we sent troops into Darfur, or Myanmar, or North Korea, or Somalia, or just about every other place in the world that is suffering from tyranny? Because these countries don't fit into the grand plan to change the middle east and Islam. Oh and there's no oil either.

When you talk about the grand plan for the middle east; you're right in the sense that the country in the mid-east that receives the largest amount of U.S. foreign funds for defense spending is Israel. So it is protectionism for Israel; read for example; "Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid" written by Jimmy Carter. You can also watch this very informative documentary on youtube called the 'Iron Wall' as well (it's broken up into different parts)... .

Your last point is the most crucial...O-I-L. It should be of no surprise when you have two oil men running our country right now.

Like I've said countless times in this discussion; I'm approaching this with facts and sincerity for making the correct decision for our country and the rest of the world and its inhabitants. It should be our duty as Americans to seek knowledge and educate ourselves on the facts behind the issues facing us...not doing so is neglecting the right of voting that is given to us to engage in on November 4th.

[wnm]

Bump

Just to keep it active.

[vinnie_dugan]

Here is the main question, as President what would barack obama do to change things? Nothing, has almost no power. The iraq war may or may not have been a mistake, that is still to be determined. I served in iraq in afghanistan with 2nd force recon and them marsoc, and I sincerely believe that the war in afghanistan was and still is a complete neccesity. The war in iraq however can be argued. For all we know there could still be a wmd in iraq. If you understand the semantics behind a nuclear device, then you know that there is no possible way to detect a briefcase sized bomb. Anyways, back to the question, what will Obama do?

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[Hi-Definition]

Here is the main question, as President what would barack obama do to change things? Nothing, has almost no power. The iraq war may or may not have been a mistake, that is still to be determined. I served in iraq in afghanistan with 2nd force recon and them marsoc, and I sincerely believe that the war in afghanistan was and still is a complete neccesity. The war in iraq however can be argued. For all we know there could still be a wmd in iraq. If you understand the semantics behind a nuclear device, then you know that there is no possible way to detect a briefcase sized bomb. Anyways, back to the question, what will Obama do?

If you're saying that's the main question that's posed for Obama (what will he do?)..well then that question should be (not just can be) posed for McCain as well. Then again, it's a loaded-question on your part; because your sentence immediately after your first sentence...proves how you answer the very question posed by you.

I don't understand your own question's reply of; "Nothing, has almost no power". That's way too simplistic and incorrect of a response. If anything, America's President has immense power; how else do you think the nation and half the world is in the discombulated shape it's in now; because of the decisions of the one in office right now. Facts are facts, reality is reality. To turn a blind eye to all of it...is selfish and foolish. Why else do you think the fight for the position is so intense and wanted...because to be President is a very POWERFUL and IMPORTANT position.

That's the crux w/ people running for President (unless theyre running for a 2nd term)...you never TRULY know until the person is in office (keyword: truly). One can only initially base their decision based on what is said by the candidate; and then tie-up all the ends that go into making a final decision...based on how you ultimately feel about the candidate.

Not too many people dispute the validity and authenticity of the implications and checklist for the war in Afghanistan. Iraq...now that is a different animal.

You speak of the 'semantics' of a wmd; don't you mean schematics? BIG DIFFERENCE. And if your mind self-justifies the validity of the war in Iraq based on the hope of finding the jackpot in the form of a wmd...even a 'brief-case' sized one as you allude to; then not too much can be done about such thinking...I suppose not even the 9/11 Commission or the numerous findings/congressional hearings/senate hearings/etc...can sway such a self-nepotistic'like mindset of holding hope for the ORIGINAL SIN called 'wmd'.

[wnm]

Obama's message of change comes in many forms. One is to change the tenor of the campaign discussion, as McCain said he would do, but has turned out to be even worse than Karl Rove. I think this is the main reason that so many younger people are into Obama. They are tired of the previous generation fighting culture wars, breaking everything down to the 50% + 1 solution, and politicizing every issue instead of governing.

Another change issue is how this country interacts with the rest of the world. On 9/11 everyone loved the USA and was with us on that tragic day. On 9/12, the honeymoon was over (hyperbole I know, but that's the general idea). Obama is willing to meet and talk with people first, even our "enemies". I see that a sign of strength that we are not worried about the propaganda from these countries, or that we might "look bad".

[vinnie_dugan]

I just dont see obama being able to make any real changes. Not only that, but if he did implement said changes, it would put the country in more of a hole than it is already in. I dont want to pay more taxes, they are ridiculous as it is. Imagine paying a nationalized healthcare as well, that would be absurd. I should not have to pay for you to go to the hospital through my government. It is simply not the governments responsibility to pay for that.

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[jaefox1]

How can we fix infrastructure and education without paying for it? I don't mind paying for neccessities, my problem starts when we are paying and nothing is getting better. Whoever is in office is going to have to raise taxes. They are lying when they say they won't. Obama is just making it more even. He has proposed a tax cut for the middle class.

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[SLVR6]

Ask most anyone from a country with national health care if they prefer it? Can they see a dr in a timely manner? I know in many countries the good jobs provide private health insurance. Why do so many come from around the world to the US for specialty surgeries and such? Simply we have some of the best doctors in the world! We would not have that under a national health care system. Do the poor need health insurance? Sure, we already pay for that in our taxes! Is it quite lopsided from welfare and stuff? Yes.

War in Iraq, regardless of why it was started, mis-information, etc, the job needs to be finished. We pull out to early and quickly, we will invite the terrorists to take their own country and western society will be quite different (think of the terror israelites live with daily (or did) with market bombings and such.

My vote is decided and I could never with a good concience vote for a junior senator.....you know he has been groomed by those who are more seasoned because he is a good speaker and popular with a younger crowd because he is closer to their generation. Do I fully agree with either candidate? No, I am choosing the one I believe to be the lesser of 2 evils......

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[Hi-Definition]

I just dont see obama being able to make any real changes. Not only that, but if he did implement said changes, it would put the country in more of a hole than it is already in. I dont want to pay more taxes, they are ridiculous as it is. Imagine paying a nationalized healthcare as well, that would be absurd. I should not have to pay for you to go to the hospital through my government. It is simply not the governments responsibility to pay for that.

Of the two candidates; you think Obama would be the one with a higher chance of putting America into a hole? You do know the other option is McCain right? Wow, astonishing.

As for healthcare; that's a slice of many slices in the pie. America is FAR from the nationalized healthcare that the U.K. offers for example...so in the GRAND SCHEME of things; talk pertaining to nationalized healthcare is pale

Ask most anyone from a country with national health care if they prefer it? Can they see a dr in a timely manner? I know in many countries the good jobs provide private health insurance. Why do so many come from around the world to the US for specialty surgeries and such? Simply we have some of the best doctors in the world! We would not have that under a national health care system. Do the poor need health insurance? Sure, we already pay for that in our taxes! Is it quite lopsided from welfare and stuff? Yes.

What's up with all of this bandwagon talk of nationalized healthcare from some of you. Let me make this clear...WE ARE FAR from even taking the first step on the flight of stairs leading to that stage.

War in Iraq, regardless of why it was started, mis-information, etc, the job needs to be finished. We pull out to early and quickly, we will invite the terrorists to take their own country and western society will be quite different (think of the terror israelites live with daily (or did) with market bombings and such.

No one is saying to up and bounce out of Iraq immediately; both candidates are pretty much resonating the message that there should be an actively pursued time-table for the withdrawal of troops. People with the mindset such as yours; are the ones that are kept into the circle of fear by continuous and constant talk of terrorism, attacks, weapons of mass destruction, nuclear arms, etc.

You bring up the; as you call them..."israelites" as an example. Just as the bombing on the Federal building in Oklahoma City by McVeigh and Nichols was an act of terrorism (homegrown terror)...that is no different from other terrorists (irregardless of religion) and their acts (World Trade Center attacks, etc.) Terrorism is flat out wrong...whether it's caused by a Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu, whatever. Do some research into the roots of this terrorism, the elements, the history behind it all...and you'll see that terror in the form of suicide bombings is just as grotesque as the abominations that the "Israelites" that you speak of...conduct on refugee camps, and on Arab-Christians and Arab-Muslims alike.

My vote is decided and I could never with a good concience vote for a junior senator.....you know he has been groomed by those who are more seasoned because he is a good speaker and popular with a younger crowd because he is closer to their generation. Do I fully agree with either candidate? No, I am choosing the one I believe to be the lesser of 2 evils...

If your vote has been decided; then it's unfortunate that you aren't casting the vote in the smartest way you can.

What does it say when polls (even though I don't have confidence in them) are suggesting that Obama has lost some ground in states like Florida...just because McCain picked Palin. Let's introspect into the psyche behind that. It's amazing how haphazard so many of the citizens of the U.S. can be with a right given to them.

What does it take for people to educate themselves and to kick their sheer common sense and sense of humanity into gear? I guess some are destined to be lost causes.

[wnm]

Health Care:

This is a somewhat long post I wrote in response to the health care comments. To me the comments seem to be sound biteish. But in fact, the health care proposals are very complex. Even if you don’t read the entire post, I encourage you to go here Barack Obama and Joe Biden: The Change We Need | Health Care for Obama’s plan, and here JohnMcCain.com - McCain-Palin 2008 for McCain’s plan.

I think you will see that McCain’s site is more of a vision kind of thing. He identifies some key issues, but seems to leave it in limbo about how those issues will specifically be addressed. I think this goes to the republican mantra that the free market always works and government never works.

Obama’s site also identifies key issues, but follows up with specifics about how to address them.

A little background:

The US health care system in no way resembles the health care system in western style democracies (Canada, Europe, Japan, Korea, Australia, NZ, etc.). Our system is entirely free market based except for the poorest (Medicaid) the elderly (Medicare) and veterans (the VA). Most people get their health insurance through employer sponsored health insurance whether private firms or public employees such as teachers and government employees. The programs run from the top of the line (Blue Cross Personal Choice) where you can get anything you want anytime you want to HMO's where care is manage to reduce costs and to reduce choices.

I personally have an excellent Blue Cross plan which I can tell you it is a god send, because my wife is currently undergoing cancer treatments, as well as taking medications for chronic conditions. We would be bankrupt or worse with out our coverage. The value of the coverage is approximately $15,000 per year for me and my wife, of which I pay 20% + regular copays.

This is my understanding of McCain’s plan:

He will tax the value of the insurance coverage I receive and offset that with a $5,000 tax credit. This will add $15,000 to my income or approximately $4,500 in new tax. Tax credits are generally equal a 1/3 reduction in tax payments (try itemizing your federal deductions to check), thus reducing my additional tax by $1,667 or a net tax burden of $2,833. Even assuming that my $15,000 additional income is offset by the full $5,000 my tax burden would be an additional $3,000. The idea behind the tax credit is that those without insurance would have extra money to buy their own, while taxing the value would make people spend for needless health care, because we would want our employer to get cheaper insurance to reduce its value.

I think there are some other points such as allowing small businesses to pool resources to get cheaper plans, prevent companies from denying coverage for pre-existing conditions, and allowing people to purchase insurance across state lines. In fairness (see below), here is a link to McCain site: JohnMcCain.com - McCain-Palin 2008.

What should logically happen under McCain’s plan is that companies will drop insurance and give everyone a check for the value of the former coverage, likely less than what the true value was. This eliminates a big chunk of corporate overhead by not having to administer insurance plans. I can tell you it’s a full time job for 2 people in our 130 person company. We would all be free to purchase insurance in the open market with our new found wealth and tax credits.

I am confident that I would not be able to purchase an insurance plan equivalent to what I have now with the funds made available to me. We enjoy favorable rates from our insurer because of the size of our company, and the willingness of the company to fight for employees when necessary. I would be on my own to evaluate a multitude of plans (remember the Medicaid drug plan), to find the most economical one. And, I would not have the bargaining power of a larger organization.

Meanwhile for those who have no insurance, a $5,000 tax credit is a drop in the bucket towards a health insurance plan for a family.

A final note on McCain’s plan regarding purchasing insurance across state lines; different states have different insurance requirements based on what people of the state want (presumably through their elected representatives). If we are allowed to purchase coverage from another state arguably at less cost, then all insurance companies will move to the state with most favorable insurance requirements just as credit card companies and banks moved to Delaware.

This is my understanding of Obama’s plan:

He would require that all children have insurance. I think the expanded SCHIP will go a long way towards this.

He would create an optional national health insurance plan with the same benefits that federal employees receive. Everyone would be eligible to participate in this plan.

Federal income subsidy based on the ability to pay.

Note: I started reading the plan details on his site and they are too numerous to list in this post go to Barack Obama and Joe Biden: The Change We Need | Health Care or google for more information.

Obama’s plan would allow me to keep my insurance as is, or pick the federal plan if I want to. It will provide insurance to anyone who wants or needs it without mandating it.

[Hi-Definition]

Great post/contribution wnm. As far as the healthcare portion of the debate between these two candidates...I knew their individual stances; but not to the extent you shed light on; thanks for that.

Also...I suggest some of you take a read on Obama's plan for education; compared to McCain's plan...there's a glaring disparity (rather inadequacy between the two); and quite frankly; Obama's education plan actually provides the resources and incentive for teachers to teach and for students to learn.

Yes...there are other substantiave issues aside from JUST war/fear/violence/anarchy...such as education, healthcare, housing, economy, poverty and a plethora of other sectors of life and this world.

Here's an addendum to the economy aspect of this presidential race; IT'S MORE IMPORTANT THAN EVER. Forget just the starking revelations some months ago of the economy's mess...look at the present as well; Lehman Bros. has collapsed, AIG (an insurance giant) is on the brink w/ Merrill Lynch. This is some scary stuff folks.

[vinnie_dugan]

Trust me, you will be paying for that insurance whether you decide to take it or not wnm. Also, education? That isn't even the federal governments responsibility, why are we talking about that?

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[wnm]

Great post/contribution wnm. As far as the healthcare portion of the debate between these two candidates...I knew their individual stances; but not to the extent you shed light on; thanks for that.

Here's an addendum to the economy aspect of this presidential race; IT'S MORE IMPORTANT THAN EVER. Forget just the starking revelations some months ago of the economy's mess...look at the present as well; Lehman Bros. has collapsed, AIG (an insurance giant) is on the brink w/ Merrill Lynch. This is some scary stuff folks.

Thanks. If my prior post was scary, these will scare the bejesus out of you:

Journal Disputes McCain’s Health Care Claims - The Caucus Blog - NYTimes.com

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/16/op...ml?ref=opinion

Cost And Coverage Implications Of The McCain Plan To Restructure Health Insurance -- Buchmueller et al., 10.1377/hlthaff.27.6.w472 -- Health Affairs

and in PDF

Cost And Coverage Implications Of The McCain Plan To Restructure Health Insurance -- Buchmueller et al., 10.1377/hlthaff.27.6.w472 -- Health Affairs

[vinnie_dugan]

Wnm, check where you are getting your facts from, the nyslimes isnt the most accurate news source.

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[Hi-Definition]

Trust me, you will be paying for that insurance whether you decide to take it or not wnm. Also, education? That isn't even the federal governments responsibility, why are we talking about that?

We're talking about education because it's ONE of many things that should be discussed. Does this not prove my point to some others (of course aside from you vinnie_dugan)...that people don't want to seek to educate themselves? They don't want to be educated? When in actuality they should become educated; that education is the avenue to knowledge.

Thus...knowledge is the nourishment to the type of decisions made.