View Poll Results: Rock the Vote 2008

Voters
257. You may not vote on this poll
  • Obama

    150 58.37%
  • McCain

    94 36.58%
  • Undecided still

    13 5.06%
11-05-08 12:08 PM
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  1. JRussett's Avatar
    he has a birth certificate that states his place of birth was in the united states - that's actually more than john mccain can claim...what is it you would like? a video of the birth itself?
    10-24-08 01:27 PM
  2. vinnie_dugan's Avatar
    Jrussett, he has yet to submit the proof as requested by the courts...
    10-24-08 01:32 PM
  3. aceswildtru's Avatar
    Am I the only person that watches/listens to the news?!?!
    10-24-08 01:45 PM
  4. vinnie_dugan's Avatar
    What's the news? Is it a city? Is it nice? Does it have a good movie theater?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-24-08 01:55 PM
  5. aceswildtru's Avatar
    It does, if you watch/listen to only the networks, if you believe everything they try to tell (sell).
    10-24-08 02:02 PM
  6. exelant's Avatar
    A real birth certificate has been released by the campaign. It has also been supplied to everyone who has an interest. This is another conspiracy theory story. Maybe you don't like factchecker.org, but it is as conclusive as you can get.
    FactCheck.org: Born in the U.S.A.
    10-24-08 02:04 PM
  7. vinnie_dugan's Avatar
    Exelant, his birth certificate is posted on his website...that doesn't help much...he was asked to submit formal proof and he has yet to do that.
    10-24-08 02:08 PM
  8. exelant's Avatar
    If you read the article, the birth certificate was inspected and found to be real. It met all of the requirements set forth for a passport to be issued, and this is considered proof of citizenship by our government. They have a number of photos that disprove what Berg has asserted -- that the number is blacked out, it doesn't have the official clerk and recorder seal and that it has his sister's name blacked out. This is a made up issue that is without substance. If you choose not to believe it, that is up to you, but I think it is real and look forward to the election.

    What about McCain being born in Panama -- that is an actual foreign country, unlike Hawaii.
    10-24-08 02:49 PM
  9. aceswildtru's Avatar
    Um, both of McCain's parents were US citizens, thus making him a natural citizen, regardless of where he was born. I'm glad you know the law!
    10-24-08 02:59 PM
  10. yeahman's Avatar
    The point about Communist China is that we need to level the playing field. When a country, any country has barriers in place through tariffs and restrictive importation rules that keep us from exporting goods to them and reducing the trade imbalance, we need to respond in kind. Of course one must be realistic -- if one can only get a needed product from one source, one has no other choice . But as Obama points out, why should we have a tax policy that rewards those who move production to other countries?
    To my knowledge, the US imposes more tariffs on Chinese imports than China does on US imports.
    As for the tax policy, it's merely a matter of wording. I can just as easily say that we shouldn't have a tax policy that punishes those who wish to take advantage of foreign markets.

    To speak to the oil issue a bit further, Yeahman, (and I understand we probably agree on more issues than we disagree).

    Isn't it in our best interest to get serious about reducing our reliance on oil? Not reducing dependence on imported oil, but on oil? When we begin to use alternative fuels in quantities large enough to eliminate importing oil for transportation, we can produce more than enough oil for our other needs such as plastics, lubrication and polymers, etc. We already have vast deposits of oil shale and coal to see us through for centuries. This will allow us to stop the wealth transfer to those who dislike us and may not have our best interests in mind.

    The technology is coming; it could come exponentially faster with government assistance. This is not a naive pipe dream. It is happening now -- Honda is bringing hydrogen cars to California. It is not unrealistic to want our government to provide the research necessary to create the batteries needed and to subsidize creation of the infrastructure required to supply alternative fuels. Barrack Obama is advocating these, or similar ideas. That is another huge reason to vote for him.
    That's all good except that every president since Nixon has been saying the same thing. It's just not that easy. The problem is that oil is relatively cheap. The best way to make alternative fuels economically viable is to tax the **** out of oil but that's political suicide.

    I grew up poor, busted my **** and made it. No one told me there was another option. I was not "lucky"
    You paid for your own private education instead of benefiting from public education? That is impressive.

    Fine by me. Warren also provides thousands of jobs. I'll say it again----"punishing Warren won't help anybody else get rich, nor should it if they didn't earn it, what it will do is hurt lots of people that want to work for Warren in the jobs he creates"
    Oh well in that case, we should exempt Warren entirely! How about we tax only those who don't own a business? Imagine all the jobs that would create! Who cares if the rich don't pay any taxes? Isn't it better that they create more jobs?

    I can just as easily flip it around. The poor and middle class create jobs. Somebody has to grow the food that they buy, make the clothes that they wear, run the transportation that they use... Punishing them won't help anybody else get rich.

    And also, Warren's taxes don't just disappear. They are used to build roads and schools. That creates jobs. Taxation is merely a redistribution of resources. It doesn't destroy resources.

    Taxing citizens fairly and using the money for defense, roads, education, etc.------things that benefit the masses of tax payers is taxation.

    Taking extra from those nasty rich bastards and giving it to those who don't have anything (bless their little hearts).....is socialism.
    As I stated before, an appeal to "fairness" is always a loser. Fairness is relative. One could say that anybody paying a single dollar less than me in taxes, renders the system unfair. Why should I pay $10,000 and someone else pay $500? Government is the only service where we pay according to income instead of a flat fee. A flat percentage tax is still socialism under your definition of the word because the rich pay more in absolute dollars and the poor benefit disproportionately.

    Likewise, one can also say that it's unfair that the rich pay the same percentage as the middle class because the rich enjoy a diminishing utility of their income-dollars thereby making 10% less burdensome to part with than a middle class family's 10%.

    The take-away is that the system of taxation is normative. The fallacy of many on the right is the notion that there is some golden standard of "fair" taxation.
    10-24-08 03:00 PM
  11. exelant's Avatar
    But fact checker isn't the only one saying the rumor is false -- Snoopes, who many Republicans cited to prove Barack's wife said bad things about our country:

    snopes.com: Barack Obama Birth Certificate


    And I suggest McCain is less qualified to be president because Article two of the constitution states that "no person except a natural born citizen...shall be eligible to the Office of president." Panama is not the United States. Looks like McCain and Obama will be in court and Obama is more likely to win. IMO Want to read interesting stuff about McCain not being eligible, read the stuff at this site and tell me mcCain is eligible:

    Citizen McCain - Fact Checker
    10-24-08 03:02 PM
  12. exelant's Avatar
    Um, both of McCain's parents were US citizens, thus making him a natural citizen, regardless of where he was born. I'm glad you know the law!

    Read the above, aces, actually Article four is quite clear on the subject. Glad you know the law . There is no record of McCain being born on US property while being born in Panama. And, it doesn't matter what your parent's nationality is -- place of birth is what counts.
    Last edited by exelant; 10-24-08 at 03:20 PM.
    10-24-08 03:06 PM
  13. exelant's Avatar
    I'm only talking about fair Yeahman, and I do believe you're wrong about China's trade policies. A number of years ago, Chrysler wanted to export Jeeps to China. They actually required them to build a factory there and hire Chinese to build them. Talk about transfer of technology! . I understand anecdotes do not prove an argument, but it's the best I can do spur of the moment, lol.

    On the oil subject, maybe it is a pipe dream, but it is not unrealistic to change oil/energy policy with the right president. I prefer to be optimistic as opposed to giving up on it happening.
    10-24-08 03:13 PM
  14. yeahman's Avatar
    Economists overwhelming favor Obama in every area except one: Trade. Obama's protectionism and especially his anti-Asia attitudes are a major turn off. I do understand that he needs to pander to those who are afraid of losing their jobs and he has even admitted that he is pandering on trade. There's no reason to defend Obama on this issue. To oppose him is to stand with Bill Clinton and Paul Krugman and the rest of the true free traders who disagree with Obama and there's no shame in that (assuming you're a Democrat).
    10-24-08 03:47 PM
  15. jfchica1987's Avatar
    the wealthy business owners are making more than enough money to stay rich regardless of a raise in their taxes. the raise in taxes for them will not affect them to the result of them having to shut down their businesses. believe they will be fine. the economy is soooo bad right now its ridiculous. people are struggling and my family is one of those families going through it.
    10-24-08 06:08 PM
  16. golfnut's Avatar
    Maybe you're on to something here. The rich are just like the rest of us but are economically blessed. The common folk are the ones going over to serve their country in war, right? So maybe the rich can do their part to help us out of this crisis by giving a little more to taxes. It's not like the CEO's are jumping to serve in our armed forces so this will allow them a way to be a part of the sollution without having to shed blood.
    Last edited by golfnut; 10-24-08 at 06:58 PM. Reason: Needed the edit to complete it
    10-24-08 06:56 PM
  17. exelant's Avatar
    I am yeahman, and while in the midst of a campaign, I might go a bit further than normal, lol. I am not an economist, I do however mistrust the Chinese, but not in a wacky xenophobic way. When I read about a Chinese Army General asking if Los Angeles is worth Taiwan, or see them shoot down a satellite, a lynch pin in our national defense, I get a bit nervous.

    I do trust Bill Clinton, Krugman and Rubin. Much as some might disagree, Bill was a good manager and left our economy in great shape. I work in an environmental field and do science on an industrial scale. That is why I know we can invent our way out reliance on foreign oil. I am not a parrot and I make up my own mind about issues.

    I started out a Hillary supporter, but I do believe Obama is smart enough to surround himself with people who will give him good advice. If something doesn't work, try something else. Like Bill, results will matter more than party lines. What he says about investing in science has me excited for our future. The products we can produce in these fields can be amazing.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Last edited by exelant; 10-24-08 at 08:18 PM.
    10-24-08 07:06 PM
  18. yeahman's Avatar
    I am yeahman
    No, you're not!

    I am not an economist, I do however mistrust the Chinese, but not in a wacky zenophobic way. When I read about a Chinese Army General asking if Los Angeles is worth Taiwan, or see them shoot down a satellite, a lynch pin in our national defense, I get a bit nervous.
    If that isn't xenophobia, I don't know what is.
    10-24-08 07:40 PM
  19. exelant's Avatar
    NO! Fear of being blasted to smithereens has nothing to do with race, lol. I'd distrust the Canadians if they made the same threats. You're a trip, and I don't mean on Greyhound, haha.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-24-08 08:16 PM
  20. exelant's Avatar
    Got to meet Laura Dern last night! Some advantages to working the phones, lol.
    10-25-08 01:30 PM
  21. robin48's Avatar
    i agree with jd....but the arguement is a moot point here, obama has as much political and gov't experience now that W did when he won in 2000
    Not correct Bush had been governor of Texas
    10-25-08 01:33 PM
  22. JRussett's Avatar
    yeah for 6 years, with no elected or gov't experience prior to that...obama at least had political experience on the local and state level before he was elected to the senate
    10-26-08 08:11 AM
  23. golfnut's Avatar
    When all is said and done, our country needs true change and a new direction. Obama is the only one that can provide this. Will the change be good? Only time will tell. However one thing is for sure. McCain is more of the same, which our nation cannot endure. Sometimes we have to just be willing to try a new approach. Now is that time. I hope we can turn things around in the years to come because we are in turmoil. If John prevails, he will indeed need to be the "maverick" he claims to be. We'll soon find out.
    10-26-08 12:49 PM
  24. exelant's Avatar
    We seem to be lucky in this country. We have always found the president we need when the times call for it. Wahington to set our course, Lincoln to save the union, Teddy to rein in the Robber Barons, Wilson to drag us into the 20th century -- too many legislative accomplishments to list, and FDR during our darkest hour. I think in this election we will do the same with Barrack Obama.
    Something to remember is that the Stock Market usually is a leading indicator for how things are going to go. God help us these next four years if this proves to be the case again. We're in for a rough ride.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-26-08 01:42 PM
  25. Frawg's Avatar
    Karl Marx stated: From those with means, to those with needs. This particular form of government has failed everywhere it's been tried and for some reason, we seem determined to try it here. Why tax individuals in this country at confiscatory rates when the government will mis-spend the money on useless social programs? In Senator Obama's own words "to spread the weath around"

    When the Obama campaign, in combination with government employees in Ohio, deliberately set about to destroy the reputation of "Joe the Plumber" because he dared to ask a question the mainstream press avoided, it is proof that socialism has already taken hold in this country.

    I'm on my way to Sears right now to pick-up some brown shirts to avoid the lines later.

    Obama/Biden - change we can do without.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-27-08 02:01 PM
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