View Poll Results: Rock the Vote 2008

Voters
257. You may not vote on this poll
  • Obama

    150 58.37%
  • McCain

    94 36.58%
  • Undecided still

    13 5.06%
11-05-08 12:08 PM
937 ... 2223242526 ...
tools
  1. Frawg's Avatar
    JRSCCivic98. All those fat cats on Wall Street need to experience what all of us working stiffs have been dealing with for years. After all, every rich Republican acquired his wealth on Wall Street. John Corzine (Governor of New Jersey, former US Senator) would certainly be able to attest to that. I need a sip of that koolaid.

    Senator Ted Kennedy is extremely wealthy despite having a very large and loyal Democrat, working class base. Senator Kennedy is well off despite having never worked in the private sector.

    Conversely, Bill Gates is one of the richest men in the world, yet he is reviled because he is rich, despite the vast majority of Americans that own computers because they are so affordable. Which man earned his wealth? Which man has done more to improve the lives of the working class in America.

    Senbator Kennedy inherited his wealth while Bill Gates earned his from scratch. I think I like the Bill Gates model better since he was one of us before he earned his fortune.

    Think about it.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-12-08 10:40 PM
  2. exelant's Avatar
    You addressed it to JR, but I have a couple comments (I know, when don't I) I don't know many people who revile Bill Gates. He is a remarkable man who is wealthy. And he does a lot to help the disadvantaged as well as create jobs.
    I don't get the animosity toward the Kennedy's. Teddy made a huge error with Mary Jo at Chappaquidic (sp?) But as far as inheriting his wealth, I don't have a problem with that because he has dedicated his life to public service. Hate his politics, that's fine, but hate him for serving? Why? What family has given more to our country? Three brothers have died for us and one still serves even though he is dying. Those Massachusetts voters re elect him because he works for them. Like Roosevelt, he is a traitor to his class because he helps working class folks.

    The people I dislike are the speculators who put the dollar above everything else. The ones who move our jobs overseas to make a few more dollars. The ones who trade oil and drive up the prices making paper profits and inflicting pain on the rest of us. The ones who push mortgages on people who can't afford them so they make huge profits and get out leaving the rest of us to pick up the tab. Frawg, I think Gates and Kennedy weren't good examples.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-12-08 11:16 PM
  3. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    It's kinda funny how 1.5-2 months ago oil barrel prices were at $125/per, but now they are at $80/per. What happened? Did the speculators not have time to meet the past few weeks because they were too busy crying over the stock market?

    Bottom line is this. There is nothing wrong with getting rich, just don't do it by getting together with all your other influential buddies and corner the market on a product that everyone needs and jack up the price on it to falsely inflate it's value to turn a profit. Do it the old fassion way, realistic supply and demand. If your product truly is something out of this world (the case of Bill Gates), then you shouldn't have to sell it for a falsely inflated price to turn a profit.

    Stop turning the middle class working man into slaves... one day it'll bite you in the *** like it did others in history.
    10-12-08 11:41 PM
  4. exelant's Avatar
    At least those who try to corner a market usually end up losing like the Hunt brothers. What's worse are those oil speculators who buy and sell a product they have no intention of using just to jack the price up. But it looks like some of them are taking a bath this week.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-13-08 11:13 AM
  5. Frawg's Avatar
    I didn't intend to display any animosity toward any of the Kennedy's Exelant. I am merely attempting to point out the difference between a self-made millionaire and one who was born into wealth. Mr Gates earned his wealth and has created thousands of jobs at Microsoft, as well as spin off companies that supply services to Microsoft. Senator Kennedy has never signed a paycheck earned by an employee. And, the good Senator does not stand alone in this regard.

    As far as Wall Street speculators are concerned, they ensure future delivery of a comodity at a guaranteed price. Whether it is Pork Bellies, gold, soybeans, or oil. We may have had high gasoline prices (still do) but there was no supply problem. We are not the only buyer of oil products, it is a world wide energy product that every economy in the world requires to survive. Keep in mind the speculators are buying comodities for consumption in the future, with no guarantee they can sell it for a profit. On a much smaller scale, we all practice this strategy with our own money. Should I fill up the tank this week at current prices or wait fo a couple of days for the price to go down (or up depending on the circumstances). Has any politician in this country given serious consideration to drilling for more oil?

    At any rate, I would prefer to see more men and women in Congress that have a business background in lieu of a law degree. Most business owners and corporate CEOs respect their work force and instinctively know their companies could not function without employee loyalty. There are a smaller number of dishonest business owners in this country than there are dishonest politicians.

    The class envy in this election cycle is nearing epic proportions. The notion that a candidate can actually win a national election while promising to raise taxes is truly amazing. All the while, the rhetoric continues to play well for the Democrats. I don't despise the rich and I don't understand why the national Democratic party continues to poke their fingers in the eyes of those that create wealth in this country.

    I'll be holding my nose as I vote for Senator McCain.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-13-08 08:03 PM
  6. exelant's Avatar
    The speculators may create wealth, but they hold on to a great deal of it as well. Here in Colorado, there are couple of ballot measures that will effectively put the final nails in the coffins containing the remains of labor unions. Before you get started with the usual Right side diatribe about unions, they are the only organizations who will look out for the welfare of working folk. The argument is that right to work states have higher job growth. That is dishonest and they know it. The wages in all of those states are lower, and lower by a great deal.

    I understand what you said about buying futures. There is risk and those who chose to buy oil at 90 to 125 a barrel are losing a ton right now. Do we expect the government to bail them out. No. The prices of many commodities are artificial and have nothing to do with supply. China, Venezuela, Saudi Arabia and many more countries subsidize these products for their citizens.

    The economic arguments are fine for what they are, part of the equation. I'm sorry, but there is more to it. We must regulate these markets and those who use them. We must force them to have a heart. Capitalism is the only way to go, but unregulated, it is horrible. Humans are fuel for the machine, we work until we die, and if we can't work, we are thrown away.

    Sure we have some protections unions and liberal governments have given us like 40 hour weeks, job safety requirements, an end to child labor. I often hear labor unions have done their duty and we don't really need them anymore. Well, look around, wages are dropping, health benefits are shrinking, job protections are disappearing, OSHA enforcement is down by at least 25%, and job growth is only happening in those countries were workers are treated even worse than here.

    These wealthy you speak of are not creating jobs in the United States. Like I said economics is only part of the equation. The rest of it is the human part. Business only notices us when people are too expensive. We must force them to care and the only way is through legislation and union contracts. Sorry if that bothers anyone, but it is the cost of doing business. If one wants to follow the American dream and get rich then one must give back as well.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-13-08 10:40 PM
  7. exelant's Avatar
    I am too tired to talk about oil and how we truly need to find an alternative so we can stop this d#mn tranfer of all we have and hold dear to those who hate and want to kills us. It also has nothing to do with business, except that business has to find the solution.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-13-08 10:47 PM
  8. Nycxice's Avatar
    Oil won't dissappear..accept that as a fact. Far too much money to be made.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-14-08 08:47 AM
  9. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    Has any politician in this country given serious consideration to drilling for more oil?
    You're joking right? Your boy McCain wants to drill in your back yard if he could. How are you going to vote for him, but miss that aspect of what he wants to do when he's in office?

    Also, we don't have a problem with not having enough oil because we don't produce enough. What we have a problem with is the fact that we stockpile our own oil and buy someone elses to use. That's the real problem.
    10-14-08 09:35 AM
  10. Jedi_Blackberry's Avatar
    You're joking right? Your boy McCain wants to drill in your back yard if he could. How are you going to vote for him, but miss that aspect of what he wants to do when he's in office?

    Also, we don't have a problem with not having enough oil because we don't produce enough. What we have a problem with is the fact that we stockpile our own oil and buy someone elses to use. That's the real problem.
    I am concerned about more drilling within our borders because of the enforcement of regulations that would be needed.
    10-14-08 09:41 AM
  11. vinnie_dugan's Avatar
    Exelant, blame for the economy can be spread across the board. De-regulation, mortgage companies lending to unqualified buyers(fannie and freddie have been doing this for years), americans getting bad mortgages. It all comes down to free market, if the people are willing to buy it, companies will sell it. I don't understand what's wrong with the "fat cats" making money. They work for it the same as you, no?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-14-08 12:14 PM
  12. trucky's Avatar
    You're joking right? Your boy McCain wants to drill in your back yard if he could. How are you going to vote for him, but miss that aspect of what he wants to do when he's in office?

    Also, we don't have a problem with not having enough oil because we don't produce enough. What we have a problem with is the fact that we stockpile our own oil and buy someone elses to use. That's the real problem.
    We pretty much consume all that we currently produce. The Strategic Petroleum Reserve stands today at a little over 700 million barrels of oil, about a month's worth of oil at today's consumption rate. Not sure which stockpile you may have been referring to but the production pipelines are basically moving moving everything we produce to the consumer.
    10-14-08 12:26 PM
  13. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    I don't understand what's wrong with the "fat cats" making money. They work for it the same as you, no?
    So you're saying there's nothing wrong with short term lending companies applying 600% interest? I guess it's ok as long as the person pays back that weekly loan in a few days, right. The problem comes from the fact that the people borrowing $200 to make ends meet for a few days don't have the money to pay it back and constantly extend those contracts week in and week out. Meanwhile some guy sits behind a desk and enjoys life as he robs the poor to pay himself. But hey, it's ok because he's working hard. There is far too many predatory businesses running in this country. This is just one example.
    10-14-08 02:47 PM
  14. JRussett's Avatar
    we dont exactly "stockpile" all that much oil....the gov't never discloses exactly how much, but it's only about 60-90 days worth...

    welcome back vinnie
    10-14-08 03:20 PM
  15. vinnie_dugan's Avatar
    Civic, I have no problem with the way that company operates. The customer entered an agreement with the company, knowing full well what would happen if said agreement was broken. I see no "robbing" going on, it actually seems like a very good business idea.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-14-08 04:16 PM
  16. Frawg's Avatar
    Why is it that the 535 members of the US Congress have the following benefits:

    1. A healthcare plan reserved for certain members and employees of the federal government....an no others
    2. A retirement plan that is equalivant to their annual salary, even if they are in Congress for a relatively short period of time
    3. Do not have to participate in the Social Security system, yet vote on how much we are taxed and how much we receive when we retire
    4. Make decisions via the internal revenue service on what the definition of rich is
    5. Do not have to answer honestly to the public when they make mistakes. The latest being the financial market meltdown
    5. Take advantage of their power to intimidate law abiding citizens through the tax code, and then use the public's money irresponsibly

    I am personally going to vote against every incumbent on my ballot, even those in my party, with the hope that others who think the same can start a ground swell of support to replace these reprobates. If they won't enact term limits, we should.

    It isn't likely this tiny little post on this particular forum will generate any traction, but you never know.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-14-08 07:31 PM
  17. exelant's Avatar
    I missed you Vinnie -- you do make me think when you're serious.

    I must be coming across wrong, or not putting my words together right. I don't have a problem with those guys making money. In fact, I am envious of many of them; the people who are so smart about making money are to be admired. I do have a problem with those guys selling mortgages to people who they knew couldn't repay them. And yes, those people who took the loans even though they couldn't make the payments are guilty, too. They mucked things up so bad we had to come up with this cash give away to stabilize the economy. At least we were told we had to pony up the money -- the jury's still out on that one.

    I don't want wealth redistribution either. What I would like to see is the wealthy pay the same tax rate as I do. If I pay 28% of my taxable income to the feds, well, shouldn't the rich? Yes give tax breaks to those who are creating jobs in AMERICA, not Communist China or Mexico or India. I also hate to see trust funders get big breaks on their capital gains while the rest of us pay higher rates on our income.

    Sure the top whatever percentage pay the bulk of taxes, but they also take in the bulk of the income each year. I suggest the 28% I might pay hurts me a heck of a lot more that the 28% a multi millionaire makes. Even Warren Buffett says the wealthy are getting off too easy and should pay more. I just want them to pay the same rate.

    Now there are also those people who are cheating the system. The ones who have turned free market into a bad word. The ones who wrapped up these bad securities and sold them for huge profits that they took and ran with. Do me a favor and go back and read about the events leading up to the great depression and the solutions bankers of the day came up with to solve the credit crises of 1929. Vinnie, you will be shocked by the similarities. It is an exact mirror of today.

    We haven't even gotten a glimpse of the bottom. Let's pray the results today are different from then. If they aren't, we are in for decades of a whole lot of hurt. If this happens, the last person we want in the White House is a republican because they do not know how to help. The poor, and a whole lot of us will be poor. Many many people who think they have good recession proof jobs will learn there's a big difference between recession proof and depression proof.

    Here's another perspective on Wall Street that kind of puts those I'm talking about on the hot seat.:
    Dear Wall Street: We're Watching You

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Last edited by exelant; 10-14-08 at 09:37 PM. Reason: update
    10-14-08 09:29 PM
  18. vinnie_dugan's Avatar
    Exelant, look at how many people are dying every year from cigarettes, heart disease and diabetes. Should we make cigarettes, fatty foods and candy illegal? All I'm saying is that people should do a little more research into what they are getting into, particularly when its something they will be paying for the next thrity years.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-14-08 09:42 PM
  19. exelant's Avatar
    No argument here for everyone who got in over their heads, they should step up and accept the consequences, and not expect us to bail them out. It didn't work in 1929 and it won't work today, if we're talking about the same thing.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-14-08 10:50 PM
  20. vinnie_dugan's Avatar
    We see eye to eye here, its just when you say the government should "help" the average man, why? Is it any different than the government helping big business? They both pay taxes right?

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-14-08 10:56 PM
  21. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    Civic, I have no problem with the way that company operates. The customer entered an agreement with the company, knowing full well what would happen if said agreement was broken. I see no "robbing" going on, it actually seems like a very good business idea.
    Hummm, that sounds so fermiliar... wait, isn't that what Fannie and Freddie's business practices were? Look where that got everyone.
    10-14-08 11:21 PM
  22. vinnie_dugan's Avatar
    Civic please do research before you make a statement. Fannie and freddie lent to people that were turned down by the private sector, the companies you are referring to won't lend to you if you can't pay them back.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-14-08 11:24 PM
  23. Frawg's Avatar
    There was a discussion earlier regarding exporting jobs. Actually, there is no such thing.

    Given the constraints placed on American businesses, I can understand why it is so attractive for U.S. businesses to open manufacturing plants in Mexico, China, Korea, and a host of other economies where products can be manufactured at a price that is cheaper than the competition of those same products manufactured in the USA.

    When imported productss are available in abundance on the shelves of K-Mart and WalMart, American consumers benefit greatly, particularly the poor and middle class. I happen to shop at these places often.

    Similarly, it is considerably less expensive to purchase an American made car than any European or Japanese made automobile. I purchased my little Chevy at a huge discount over all of the Japanese made cars available at the time. Let the third-world countries continue to make all the dish drying racks and shoe horns the world wants while the USA exports the planet's best airplanes, space sattelites, and other ingenious high tech products. We live in a global economy and it benefits all consumers when we can buy imported products at huge discounts.

    Some countries impose execessive tarrifs on imports made in the USA. We are fortunate that our government does not implement that course of action very often. With the notable exception of the Cuban embargo, the USA practices free trade. For the most part, consumers are motivated by price. They couldn't care less where the product is made or if fair wages were paid to the people who assembled the product. Do your own unscientific survey the next time you are buying goods from the neighborhood dollar store.

    If I feel compelled to smoke a cuban cigar, I can always find a way to smoke one when I visit friends in Toronto. Cuban cigars are overated anyway.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-14-08 11:43 PM
  24. vinnie_dugan's Avatar
    Very true my friend, right now(and even more so with obama) a business has no incentive to have any sort of office in the us. We have the highest corporate tax in the world, minumum wage is astronomical. That is why chinas economy is booming...

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    10-14-08 11:49 PM
  25. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    Civic please do research before you make a statement. Fannie and freddie lent to people that were turned down by the private sector, the companies you are referring to won't lend to you if you can't pay them back.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    Say what? Now you're just bending the truth to suit you. Short term lenders have a very broad criteria for what you should meet. All they care about is how much you get paid per month, they don't seem to ask what other depts you have to pay as well. That was my point and it stands for both examples that I gave. You can't make 30k a year and expect to get a loan for 300k home, yet the companies in the reference made such things happen. People in the lending business should have the realized decency to sometimes think for their clients, not encorage them to live beyond their means. But issue is, they just think about the bottom line and that's why there's a greater need to keep an eye on these individuals.
    10-14-08 11:51 PM
937 ... 2223242526 ...
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD