08-07-14 05:15 PM
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  1. bambinoitaliano's Avatar
    07-17-14 05:59 PM
  2. raino's Avatar
    I'm sorry. I just can't take this guy seriously. It's like a local PETA chapter being headquartered at a steakhouse.
    LoneStarRed and BCITMike like this.
    07-17-14 07:34 PM
  3. eyesopen1111's Avatar
    Ed Snowden was helping to teach people how to protect their information even while he was still working as an NSA contractor. Then he told the world what was actually happening with government spying in multiple countries, producing Pulitzer prizes and numerous civic awards in the process.

    What were you accomplishing this year while he was doing all that?

    InfoSec and civil liberties are as important as ever.


    Z-30/STA 100-5/10.3.0.700+.296/T-Mobile USA
    Rjinswand, Doggerz and acovey like this.
    07-17-14 08:01 PM
  4. bambinoitaliano's Avatar
    His side of the story needs to be told whether you believe him or not. His points are not that far fetch. I am not putting 100% trust on the US government or any government or any institution. To put it in a more relatable scenario. Let's suppose someone sneak into your gym locker and take pictures/videos of you naked changing or taking showers and post them on websites that specifically cater to voyeurists. How do you feel of such invasion of privacy? From the TSA and up these are informations being taken without consent. All it takes is one employee to make some extra money on the side to sell these supposelly mundane data but with specific market value to certain segment of the population. I am just giving one very simple example here. Corporations can't be giving out loyalty rewards for free if your personal information is of no value. How many loyalty cards does one has in his purse or wallet? How did Facebook, Twitter, Google suddenly become the valuable corporations that they are today? This is not so much about one John Snowden or Chelsea Manning leaking out national secrets. We can't live in a bubble and turn a blind eye and give the big brother a free pass. Yup, I m not a criminal, I got nothing to hide just take everything you want from me. Go ahead and feel my junks to your hearts content.
    07-17-14 08:27 PM
  5. raino's Avatar
    Oh I don't doubt his I overall message (even though I wonder if he's skilled enough to know/understand the details of some of the things he leaks,) but I got a biiig problem with him scampering off to Russia. Therefore his "I'll go to Guantanamo if it comes to that" is just a laughable, hollow statement.
    LoneStarRed likes this.
    07-17-14 08:54 PM
  6. bambinoitaliano's Avatar
    Oh I don't doubt his I overall message (even though I wonder if he's skilled enough to know/understand the details of some of the things he leaks,) but I got a biiig problem with him scampering off to Russia. Therefore his "I'll go to Guantanamo if it comes to that" is just a laughable, hollow statement.
    Because no other country willing to take him for fear of US retaliation. In the early days after the leak, It was not inconceivable by the US to have him kill. This is a different level of "justice system" you are dealing with. We can't just dismiss him like some has been celebrity seeking for attention. There is some substance to his accusation.
    Doggerz likes this.
    07-17-14 09:17 PM
  7. sonicpix's Avatar
    Oh I don't doubt his I overall message (even though I wonder if he's skilled enough to know/understand the details of some of the things he leaks,) but I got a biiig problem with him scampering off to Russia. Therefore his "I'll go to Guantanamo if it comes to that" is just a laughable, hollow statement.
    Ya. It really sucks that you can't trust your own country. So much so that you have to flee it an escape to Russia.

    BB Proud
    07-17-14 10:20 PM
  8. Dave Bourque's Avatar
    Oh I don't doubt his I overall message (even though I wonder if he's skilled enough to know/understand the details of some of the things he leaks,) but I got a biiig problem with him scampering off to Russia. Therefore his "I'll go to Guantanamo if it comes to that" is just a laughable, hollow statement.
    He wouldn't need to if the American justice system was just...

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.3247
    07-17-14 10:33 PM
  9. phoneaddict78's Avatar
    He wouldn't need to if the American justice system was just...

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.3247
    Yeah that must be it!
    07-17-14 10:42 PM
  10. Dave Bourque's Avatar
    Yeah that must be it!
    Chelsea ( Bradley) Manning got a for life sentence for exposing war crimes.... wow wonder why Snowden didn't stay in the states. I'm sure he expected a fair trial.

    you think D1ck Cheney( Bush was his puppet) will get charged for falsely invading Iraq? Nope the system is backwards.

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.3247
    Last edited by Dave Bourque; 07-17-14 at 11:12 PM.
    07-17-14 10:55 PM
  11. Doggerz's Avatar
    Ya. It really sucks that you can't trust your own country. So much so that you have to flee it an escape to Russia.

    BB Proud
    I feel the same.

    Z30 / STA100-5 / 10.2.1.3247 / T-Mobile USA
    acovey likes this.
    07-17-14 11:03 PM
  12. raino's Avatar
    Because no other country willing to take him for fear of US retaliation. In the early days after the leak, It was not inconceivable by the US to have him kill. This is a different level of "justice system" you are dealing with. We can't just dismiss him like some has been celebrity seeking for attention. There is some substance to his accusation.
    Oh come off it. The US does not target citizens (unless they're the al-Awlaki types.) And again, I don't doubt the information (although, I would argue that the bigger picture was already known--the US spies, its allies spy, and its enemies spy--he just filled in a few details,) I just don't like the person. Too attention *****-ish for me, especially after this laughable, dramatic Guantanamo imprisonment statement.

    He wouldn't need to if the American justice system was just...
    He never did face the American justice system, did he? And he ran away to Russia. Talk about overzealous, intrusive government. Tell me, is he going to leak the Russian sale/transfer orders for the SAMs that brought down the Malaysian plane next? Or is Putin conveniently a good guy to him now?
    shaleem likes this.
    07-18-14 12:40 PM
  13. sad_old_man's Avatar
    Not again!

    Posted via CB10
    07-18-14 12:52 PM
  14. shaleem's Avatar
    He wouldn't need to if the American justice system was just...

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.3247
    And you're an expert on the American justice system? Probably just as much of an expert regarding giving or selling secrets while serving in the military. Whether she was right or wrong, it is a violation of military law. U.S. Military Law governs the actions of all U.S. military personnel. What would the Canadian Army do in the same circumstance? I'd wager that they would do the same thing.
    sad_old_man and raino like this.
    07-18-14 02:14 PM
  15. Superdupont 2_0's Avatar
    I got a biiig problem with him scampering off to Russia. Therefore his "I'll go to Guantanamo if it comes to that" is just a laughable, hollow statement.
    Really difficult to follow your thoughts here.

    You do know that he first applied for asylum in Spain, Poland, Austria, Netherlands, Germany waiting in the internal zone of Moscow airport more than a month trying other options first and you call that scamper?

    You really want to drag us down to this level?

    But funny that you said "hollow", as this is exactly the current state of the Bill of Rights ( no "big" problem, because you can handle this, right?).


    And Im afraid we are missing a point.
    Ed only said 'If I end up in chains in Guantnamo I can live with that that's just referring to the fact that Team Snowden is not yet check-mate in this game (, although it's crystal clear now the only winners here is the audience and not the players.)



    Oh come off it. The US does not target citizens (unless they're the al-Awlaki types.) And again, I don't doubt the information
    Your statement is inconsistent, because either you believe the information or you believe that the US does not target citizens.

    What did Keith Alexander mean when he said (very straight forward) You need the haystack to find the needle.?

    http://www.aspentimes.com/news/73612...metadata-email

    Snowden gives you some more information on haystacks here (skip to minute 6:00)
    Edward Snowden: 'If I end up in chains in Guantnamo I can live with that' - video interview | World news | theguardian.com

    The tragedy about Americans is really, that they totally lost checks & balances AND the ability to arrange reasonable compromises.
    It was okay to reform agencies and install these surveillance programs even without 9/11, but the targets should be organized crime syndicates, heavily corrupted politicians etc. etc. and not an averaged Joe who is running a Tor node somewhere in any constitutional democratic country .

    I mean, Snowden is not totally wrong here, so why the heck should he be put into prison and not James Clapper, who lied to congress under oath and is responsible for unconstitutional surveillance?

    Darrell Issa: James Clapper lied to Congress about NSA and should be fired - The Washington Post

    Republicans call for halt to “unconstitutional surveillance programs” | Ars Technica


    Doesnt look like a compromise to melooks more like Haggis for breakfast.
    TheScionicMan likes this.
    07-18-14 05:14 PM
  16. bambinoitaliano's Avatar
    And you're an expert on the American justice system? Probably just as much of an expert regarding giving or selling secrets while serving in the military. Whether she was right or wrong, it is a violation of military law. U.S. Military Law governs the actions of all U.S. military personnel. What would the Canadian Army do in the same circumstance? I'd wager that they would do the same thing.
    She is in jail now serving her sentence because of her violation. How many people actually look at the documents she leaked? As if her jail sentence is the end of the most contended issue in this case. Since 911 the power that be took advantage of the situation and were given the carte blanche to snoop on it's own citizens with no retribution. It manage to further amplify the fear of terrorism into having it's citizens submit their own freedom and liberty which are the very core essences of the philosophy behind US democracy. There's no check and balances in the system to oversee the NSA. The whole issues surrounding all this leaks in regards to Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden were the attempt to buried disturbing informations. Informations of how the US government contrary to it's political philosophy it preach to its own citizens and the world did behave unlawfully allegedly murdering civilians and journalists. If the US government actually believe in justice of it's own system, there should be no fear of any retribution. After all isn't the whole justice system base on innocent until proven guilty with due process? Personally I'm more dishearten by many citizens who just seems so blase about the whole incidence surrounding Edward Snowden and Chelsea Manning cases. There are just a blip in the radar in today meme. Nothing is so cut and dry as the old saying goes, there's always two side to the story.
    acovey likes this.
    07-18-14 05:30 PM
  17. BCITMike's Avatar
    Chelsea ( Bradley) Manning got a for life sentence for exposing war crimes.... wow wonder why Snowden didn't stay in the states. I'm sure he expected a fair trial.

    you think D1ck Cheney( Bush was his puppet) will get charged for falsely invading Iraq? Nope the system is backwards.

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.3247
    Or committing treason by outting undercover operatives. THAT, should have called for impeachment. Not for getting BJ's in your personal life. The USA has messed priorities.

    Posted via CB10
    raino likes this.
    07-18-14 05:43 PM
  18. raino's Avatar
    You do know that he first applied for asylum in Spain, Poland, Austria, Netherlands, Germany … waiting in the internal zone of Moscow airport more than a month trying other options first … and you call that “scamper”?
    Fair enough. But the end result is that he is sitting in Russia now, while (still) criticizing the US' intelligence overreaches. Russia. You know what Russia does to people like him? Look up Alexander Litvinenko.

    But funny that you said "hollow", as this is exactly the current state of the Bill of Rights ( no "big" problem, because you can handle this, right?).
    I'm not sure what you mean. His disclosures are protected speech, is that what you're saying?

    Your statement is inconsistent, because either you believe the information or you believe that the US does not target citizens.
    You misunderstood. We are not talking about the same type of targeting. I was responding to "It was not inconceivable by the US to have him kill[ed]"

    I mean, Snowden is not totally wrong here, so why the heck should he be put into prison and not James Clapper, who lied to congress under oath and is responsible for unconstitutional surveillance?
    If Clapper broke any laws (like lying to Congress under penalty of perjury or what not,) he should be tried in a court of law. Just like Snowden, who should be tried like Bradley/Chelsea Manning was for very specific violations of the law (military law in the case of Manning.)

    It's hilarious to see Issa and other Republicans calling for an end to these surveillance programs, when some of them were the very ones who voted to approve them.
    07-18-14 05:56 PM
  19. Superdupont 2_0's Avatar
    Fair enough. But the end result is that he is sitting in Russia now
    11 European allies *decided* not to grant asylum.

    I would not burden the whole responsibility for the Russia-situation on the shoulders of a single individual, because the door for a compromise was open... it actually is still open.

    Russia isnt the best choice, but I dont think that the Russian are interested in a further destabilization of our fragile partnership, they are obviosly surveilling him but that's it.
    He seems to be quite safe there and is making careful moves in the public (doesnt look brainwashed in the interviews).

    I'm not sure what you mean. His disclosures are protected speech, is that what you're saying?
    Just trying to draw your attention to the 4th amendment.
    It has never been revised since 1792, right?
    Maybe becausebecausebecausehmm, its easier to re-interprete its meaning over centuries according to the current needs of a government?

    You misunderstood. We are not talking about the same type of targeting. I was responding to "It was not inconceivable by the US to have him kill[ed]"
    Yep, wow, I totally misunderstood.

    If Clapper broke any laws (like lying to Congress under penalty of perjury or what not,) he should be tried in a court of law. Just like Snowden, who should be tried like
    The laws are not fair. I know its the only instrument we have, but when we shot the messenger while politicians hastily taking back their decisions in congress, there is a distinct smell of bad lawmakers.

    By the way, my understanding is that the lawyers of Mr Snowden are negotiating the conditions of a trial in the US, so again, to me this seems to be rather a problem of people, who are not willed to make compromises. I havent seen the secrecy agreement that Ed signed with Booz Allen, but he seems to be willed to accept a decision of 12 peers.

    It's hilarious to see Issa and other Republicans calling for an end to these surveillance programs, when some of them were the very ones who voted to approve them.
    Politicians all over the globe are acting hilariously for 12 months now...it's a great show seeing all their weird justifications.
    But in the end... one cannot argue successfully against constitutional rights (in public).
    07-18-14 07:47 PM
  20. LoneStarRed's Avatar
    Chelsea ( Bradley) Manning got a for life sentence for exposing war crimes.... wow wonder why Snowden didn't stay in the states. I'm sure he expected a fair trial.

    you think D1ck Cheney( Bush was his puppet) will get charged for falsely invading Iraq? Nope the system is backwards.

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.3247
    ??????
    07-18-14 07:58 PM
  21. BCITMike's Avatar
    ??????
    /sarcasm
    07-18-14 09:08 PM
  22. raino's Avatar
    11 European allies *decided* not to grant asylum.
    Maybe, just maybe it was because to the best of their abilities, they're just as equally guilty of doing some, if not all of the things the US has been exposed to have been doing? Didn't a European government official (French, I think he was, although I could be wrong) say just as much in a radio interview? Food for thought.

    Russia isn’t the best choice, but I don’t think that the Russian are interested in a further destabilization of our fragile partnership
    Say what?? You think the Russians have any respect or fear after the Syrian 'red line' and to a lesser degree, nothing being done re: the Ukrainian situation? Anyway, that's neither here nor there.

    He seems to be quite safe there and is making careful moves in the public (doesn’t look brainwashed in the interviews).
    He did do an interview with Putin, where he didn't exactly call him out over Russian surveillance: Edward Snowden Asks Putin About Surveillance - Business Insider


    Just trying to draw your attention to the 4th amendment.
    It has never been revised since 1792, right?
    Maybe because…because…because…hmm, it’s easier to re-interprete its meaning over centuries according to the current needs of a government?
    What rights under the 4th Amendment has he been denied?

    Also, I'm not sure what the re-interpretation of it has to do with anything. It's been examined in cases over and over; see, for example Katz v. United States, and a recent, personal favorite, United States v. Jones.

    The laws are not fair. I know it’s the only instrument we have, but when we shot the messenger while politicians hastily taking back their decisions in congress, … there is a distinct smell of “bad lawmakers”.
    Bad or good, we keep electing and re-electing them. And just like you can't go back and retroactively apply laws to things that were not illegal before, you have to prosecute according to the laws currently on the books. Them's the rules.

    By the way, my understanding is that the lawyers of Mr Snowden are negotiating the conditions of a trial in the US, so… again, to me this seems to be rather a problem of people, who are not willed to make compromises. I haven’t seen the secrecy agreement that Ed signed with Booz Allen, but he seems to be willed to accept a decision of 12 peers.
    And I don't see what's there to negotiate. But that shouldn't surprise you
    07-18-14 09:31 PM
  23. LoneStarRed's Avatar
    I'm sorry. I just can't take this guy seriously. It's like a local PETA chapter being headquartered at a steakhouse.
    I agree. It's not as if Russia is a known bastion of free speech, and people's rights. It is the exact opposite.(Pvssy Riot, Litvinenko, Khodorkovsky, Solzhenitsyn,etc.)

    Putin is a former KGB hardliner! Those leopards DO NOT change their spots! When he was stationed in the former East Germany as it was crumbling, a crowd gathered in front of the local Stasi (secret police) office demanding records on what happened to their vanished loved ones. Putin faced the crowd down by himself it is said. Such a man is a true believer and an idealogue.

    Snowden is now a pawn for website traffic, Pulitzer prizes, newspaper circulation, television ratings, book sales ,political embarrassment for Russia to use against the US and any intelligence they can squeeze from him. He is being used by many.

    There are scores, if not hundreds or thousands in almost every nation doing for their countries exactly what he formerly did. To pretend otherwise is to be naive or foolish. Let's hope when they are done with him he will at least still have his miserable life. All else will have long been lost, taken away or squandered.
    Last edited by LoneStarRed; 07-19-14 at 12:12 AM.
    07-18-14 10:34 PM
  24. LoneStarRed's Avatar
    With all the information Snowden absconded with, he is not unlike a gazelle which must tread carefully while crossing a lion infested plain. One false move on his part and he will be devoured.
    07-19-14 12:37 AM
  25. Heinz Katchup's Avatar
    After watching the video. I have to ask. When we going to get some Connect to SpiderOak up in this BB10 party!

    Posted via CB10
    07-19-14 12:49 AM
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