1. LoganSix's Avatar
    So, the focus is on women, which they will give a new scholarships to women who are entering STEM careers. Even though more women already go to college than men, because for the past 30+ years it has been about pushing women into college.

    They want "brands" to work with "artists" to highlight the "artists". Because that's what artists need, more free advertising.

    And they are going to use Forumla 1 as another market. Nothing like reaching everyone with a high end "sport".

    Uhh.... not sure this Keep Moving thing is focused correctly.
    richardat likes this.
    05-14-13 09:46 AM
  2. BB10FTW's Avatar
    I can't say that I agree with you. BlackBerry has been very careful about the steps they are taking. If you look at the picture in the article on the homepage you will notice that a huge amount of women leave the tech industry, that is motivation to want to encourage women not to give up.
    http://crackberry.com/more-blackberr...-are-women-men

    Posted via CB10
    a1s2d3f4g5 likes this.
    05-14-13 10:28 AM
  3. LoganSix's Avatar
    Women leave every industry (about to sound sexist) in order to start families. Ignoring that fact is being disingenuous about the problem. Hey, it would be great if men could equally quit our jobs and raise our families. But, if you polled women and gave them the choice, I doubt that the majority would choose career over family.

    Alicia Keyes got up there and talked about all the women in college and graduating from college and then complained that there aren't enough CEO's. Well, you know, there is probably a good reason. And it probably has to do with women not wanting to throw their personal lives away in order to climb the corporate ladder. They probably should look into how many divorces or multiple marriages CEOs have compared to the average.

    So, 54% of BlackBerry users are women. That's great. Does that mean they can't attract enough men to BlackBerry. The men who are CEO's and in the tech field that would make the decisions on company phone and security purchases? Doesn't that sound like missing the target? Who is the customer? The woman going to college next year or the person sitting in IT determining which direction the company is going to next year.

    Granted, I agree that playing the long game and getting more women into STEM is a great idea. However, BlackBerry seems to be focusing on how people can recognize the phone and not pushing to get people to that BlackBerry is more than a phone. Putting stickers on race cars and branding artists with BlackBerry doesn't improve that image.
    05-14-13 10:52 AM
  4. Rezia's Avatar
    Women leave every industry (about to sound sexist) in order to start families. Ignoring that fact is being disingenuous about the problem. Hey, it would be great if men could equally quit our jobs and raise our families. But, if you polled women and gave them the choice, I doubt that the majority would choose career over family.

    Alicia Keyes got up there and talked about all the women in college and graduating from college and then complained that there aren't enough CEO's. Well, you know, there is probably a good reason. And it probably has to do with women not wanting to throw their personal lives away in order to climb the corporate ladder. They probably should look into how many divorces or multiple marriages CEOs have compared to the average.

    So, 54% of BlackBerry users are women. That's great. Does that mean they can't attract enough men to BlackBerry. The men who are CEO's and in the tech field that would make the decisions on company phone and security purchases? Doesn't that sound like missing the target? Who is the customer? The woman going to college next year or the person sitting in IT determining which direction the company is going to next year.

    Granted, I agree that playing the long game and getting more women into STEM is a great idea. However, BlackBerry seems to be focusing on how people can recognize the phone and not pushing to get people to that BlackBerry is more than a phone. Putting stickers on race cars and branding artists with BlackBerry doesn't improve that image.
    My God. It is 2013. Your broad generalizations about women belong in 1953.

    There are certainly not nearly as many women as men in STEM careers. I'm in engineering and I can't tell you how many classes I've taken where I'm one of three girls in a class of 100+ students. Especially in anything like digital design or mechanical engineering.

    Frankly, it's WONDERFUL to see a company like BlackBerry support women in STEM. If I wasn't already a blackberry fan girl this would make me one! Damnit I might even apply for one of those scholarships.

    Posted via CB10
    05-14-13 03:36 PM
  5. billy88n's Avatar
    Women leave every industry (about to sound sexist) in order to start families. Ignoring that fact is being disingenuous about the problem. Hey, it would be great if men could equally quit our jobs and raise our families. But, if you polled women and gave them the choice, I doubt that the majority would choose career over family.

    Alicia Keyes got up there and talked about all the women in college and graduating from college and then complained that there aren't enough CEO's. Well, you know, there is probably a good reason. And it probably has to do with women not wanting to throw their personal lives away in order to climb the corporate ladder. They probably should look into how many divorces or multiple marriages CEOs have compared to the average.

    So, 54% of BlackBerry users are women. That's great. Does that mean they can't attract enough men to BlackBerry. The men who are CEO's and in the tech field that would make the decisions on company phone and security purchases? Doesn't that sound like missing the target? Who is the customer? The woman going to college next year or the person sitting in IT determining which direction the company is going to next year.

    Granted, I agree that playing the long game and getting more women into STEM is a great idea. However, BlackBerry seems to be focusing on how people can recognize the phone and not pushing to get people to that BlackBerry is more than a phone. Putting stickers on race cars and branding artists with BlackBerry doesn't improve that image.
    Everything you said is true but get ready for the pc patrol.


    Sent from my BlackBerry 9810 using Tapatalk
    richardat and LoganSix like this.
    05-14-13 04:34 PM
  6. SK122387's Avatar
    My God. It is 2013. Your broad generalizations about women belong in 1953.

    There are certainly not nearly as many women as men in STEM careers. I'm in engineering and I can't tell you how many classes I've taken where I'm one of three girls in a class of 100+ students. Especially in anything like digital design or mechanical engineering.

    Frankly, it's WONDERFUL to see a company like BlackBerry support women in STEM. If I wasn't already a blackberry fan girl this would make me one! Damnit I might even apply for one of those scholarships.

    Posted via CB10
    YES!! I thought it was great to see BlackBerry do something for women like this. The glass ceiling is real, and this is just another step to help shatter it. I'm obviously a guy, but I love the idea that BlackBerry is helping intelligent women work towards their goals.
    Rezia likes this.
    05-14-13 05:37 PM
  7. LoganSix's Avatar
    My God. It is 2013. Your broad generalizations about women belong in 1953.

    There are certainly not nearly as many women as men in STEM careers. I'm in engineering and I can't tell you how many classes I've taken where I'm one of three girls in a class of 100+ students. Especially in anything like digital design or mechanical engineering.

    Frankly, it's WONDERFUL to see a company like BlackBerry support women in STEM. If I wasn't already a blackberry fan girl this would make me one! Damnit I might even apply for one of those scholarships.

    Posted via CB10
    Take a breath and re-read what I wrote.
    I said it is great to encourage women to be in STEM.

    But, you know what, they have been trying to get women in to math and science since the 70s, yet you are here today as only 1 of 3 women out of 100+ students.
    richardat likes this.
    05-14-13 07:13 PM
  8. Rezia's Avatar
    Take a breath and re-read what I wrote.
    I said it is great to encourage women to be in STEM.

    But, you know what, they have been trying to get women in to math and science since the 70s, yet you are here today as only 1 of 3 women out of 100+ students.
    Hey there,

    Thanks for taking the time to read my post. I understand your point . I would just like to tell you the reasons that I felt compelled to criticize your post.

    See the problem I had with what you posted was the broad generalizations like:

    - "Women leave every industry (about to sound sexist) in order to start families. Ignoring that fact is being disingenuous about the problem. Hey, it would be great if men could equally quit our jobs and raise our families. But, if you polled women and gave them the choice, I doubt that the majority would choose career over family."

    Actually many women nowadays find a way to have both. A career and a family. It's pretty heady stuff. And some men also take more responsibility for raising a family.

    -"Alicia Keyes got up there and talked about all the women in college and graduating from college and then complained that there aren't enough CEO's. Well, you know, there is probably a good reason. And it probably has to do with women not wanting to throw their personal lives away in order to climb the corporate ladder. They probably should look into how many divorces or multiple marriages CEOs have compared to the average."

    Now this is neither here nor there. Being successful at your job doesn't necessarily mean you are going to have an awful family life. I'm sure there are many female CEOs who are happily married. You don't have to throw away your personal life to climb the corporate ladder. Look at Sheryl Sandberg! She seems to be quite fulfilled both personally and professionally.

    Look at Madam Curie. Not at the end of her life where she died of radiation poisoning. That is horrible and painful. But her husband really loved her. Did you know when they were apart they used to write letters to each other ALL the time? They did. AND she found a way to win a Nobel prize in the middle of all that letter writing.

    -"But, you know what, they have been trying to get women in to math and science since the 70s, yet you are here today as only 1 of 3 women out of 100+ students"

    I wouldn't know much about the 70s as I wasn't born until much later. And if you read what I wrote, there are only certain areas of Engineering which are so terribly skewed gender-wise.

    There many women in Chemical engineering! Sometimes people call it Fem-ical engineering for that reason. Anything to do with hardware and mechanical engineering is still pretty much male dominated. And really the fact that it IS still so skewed especially if universities have been trying to address this since the 70s means that MORE support is obviously needed.

    I'm glad to hear that you support getting more women into STEM! But as a feminist I just couldn't let the above comments pass without registering my objection.

    And I do sympathize with you regarding the direction BBRY is taking. I am an absolute, unabashed BBRY fan, but even I question some of their moves. I want them to Keep Moving in the right direction as well. And I can understand that from an investment point of view you have concerns over where they are going and whether it is going to be effective marketing-wise to give scholarships and have Alicia Keys talk about things.

    In this instance, I think it is bound to pay off eventually to give scholarships to women in STEM because it creates a lot of good feeling. Imagine a convocation when some woman in STEM gets a BlackBerry scholarship--all the people attending will feel like BBRY is a company that supports women. A company that they would want to support too.

    So thanks again for reading my post. But I'm afraid I disagree with some of the things you have said.
    Last edited by Rezia; 05-15-13 at 01:50 AM.
    05-14-13 09:34 PM
  9. LoganSix's Avatar
    Being a CEO and being in a STEM job are separate issues. Both are dependent upon choices of the individual. There is no "glass ceiling" preventing women from being CEOs (or even the President of the United States) and no barrier setup specifically for women to keep them out of STEM jobs. The simple fact is, there are more women in college than men and more graduating than men, yet they choose to go into different fields, which is why you are 1 of 3 out of 100+ in a class.

    As a feminist you should be offended by this push towards STEM and scholarships given to attract women. If a woman takes the scholarship or is persuaded to take a different choice, they have given up the ability to say "I did that. I did that on my own." You would now be just another woman who needed someone else (in BB's case, a man) to help you over a hurdle. Your empowerment is no longer your own, but what others say you should do as a woman.

    In my book, you can't be a feminist and still ask for help for you or your fellow women to compete.
    richardat likes this.
    05-15-13 06:20 AM
  10. greenberry666's Avatar
    Alicia's speech was inspiring. I'm aware that my little girls have an uphill struggle compared to their male cousins. I think it can only do BlackBerry good to be associated with compassionate and forward thinking philosophies and actions. Also, the whole "championing the artists" spin could lend the company a lot of kewl factor.

    Posted via CB10
    Rezia likes this.
    05-15-13 06:57 AM
  11. richardat's Avatar
    Actually many women nowadays find a way to have both. A career and a family. It's pretty heady stuff. And some men also take more responsibility for raising a family. .
    Right.....and some do not. Others have both, but their career is impaired to some degree. In any case, this was not a rational response to what you quoted, nor did it refute anything LoganSix said.

    Now this is neither here nor there. Being successful at your job doesn't necessarily mean you are going to have an awful family life. I'm sure there are many female CEOs who are happily married. You don't have to throw away your personal life to climb the corporate ladder. Look at Sheryl Sandberg! She seems to be quite fulfilled both personally and professionally.
    .
    Again...I am not sure why you think that pointing out examples of this exist in any way refutes what you're responding to, or adds to the discussion. In fact, when you say things like "I'm sure there are...", you are relying on the fact that we will agree with this statement, and so it isn't productive to state this when you do not use it to make any other point. Fact: yes, there are female CEO's who are happily married (note: I left out "many"....most people would NOT characterize it as "many", in terms of percentages).

    However, you greatly under-appreciate what is required to reach these positions. In fact, there are, for most, very large demands on time and lifestyle. Traditionally, this has been easier for single men, or for married men who's wives handled much of the non-work related demands. Perhaps in the future, our culture will change to see more house-husbands (I think that would be a good thing), though there are of course unavoidable biological duties which must be fulfilled by the woman no matter what arrangement is attempted. This may be cultural conditioning, or if one is an evolutionist, this may be biologically wired, either way, that is how many men have coped with the demands. Most of the women who have been successful at that level have had to deal with similar demands, and when you say things like this, I think it trivializes their sacrifices (that will probably mean more to you than trivializing the men's sacrifices - unfortunately)
    Look at Madam Curie. Not at the end of her life where she died of radiation poisoning. That is horrible and painful. But her husband really loved her. Did you know when they were apart they used to write letters to each other ALL the time? They did. AND she found a way to win a Nobel prize in the middle of all that letter writing. .
    Totally bizarre.
    I wouldn't know much about the 70s as I wasn't born until much later. And if you read what I wrote, there are only certain areas of Engineering which are so terribly skewed gender-wise.

    There many women in Chemical engineering! Sometimes people call it Fem-ical engineering for that reason. .
    That is great. Of course "many" is again, subjective. In 09, 35% of chem. eng. graduates were female - that is indeed very high compared to many other areas, but hardly the majority (and in fact, many are worried that the female numbers are may be dropping). In Canada, the % of female engineering students tends to be ~17% and about 10% of pro engineers are female.
    Anything to do with hardware and mechanical engineering is still pretty much male dominated. And really the fact that it IS still so skewed especially if universities have been trying to address this since the 70s means that MORE support is obviously needed. .
    Do you feel there is a "glass ceiling" in university enrollment decisions? I think that this is a choice made by female students, and the key to changing that is not sexist monetary rewards.
    I'm glad to hear that you support getting more women into STEM! But as a feminist I just couldn't let the above comments pass without registering my objection. .
    Again, I"m not clear on what exactly your objections are, but let me add that, despite arguments for many aspects of the "glass ceiling" being pushed by some prominent areas of the highly fractured feminist movement, there are also feminists who say that this is a myth. Of course, in tech we must think of Carly, and her declaration that their was no glass ceiling and no limits on women. She later retracted that and claimed that she suffered many ill-treatments, though, perhaps somewhat contradictorily, she also freely admits to their being great differences between the genders! The issue is of course controversial, a recent German study which followed graduates along their careers, concluded firmly that their was no glass ceiling, and that differences were clearly attributable to lifestyle choices, but I personally feel all of this far too simplistic. I have no doubt that cultural and biological differences play a role at every stage - throughout education, throughout career - in both actions, and attitudes (I will leave it to readers to decide just how strong those biological mandates are in determining even our most complex thoughts), as a result, while I have no blanket opposition to measures like these, they are - at best - simplistic band-aids. Having said that, I doubt very much we will advance as a race - we will continue believing we are newly enlightened, while simply playing variations and slight enhancements, on the same superficial reasoning we have always had. Tailored of course, to our tastes of the moment. (I shall never forget an American UBC student on the front page of a newpaper explaining how she and other American students had gathered to watch the first election of Obama, and her proudly declaring that as a minority (some Hispanic ancestry) she voted for Obama because she could relate to him - how many even batted an eyelash at such a disgusting comment? )

    In this instance, I think it is bound to pay off eventually to give scholarships to women in STEM because it creates a lot of good feeling. Imagine a convocation when some woman in STEM gets a BlackBerry scholarship--all the people attending will feel like BBRY is a company that supports women. A company that they would want to support too. .
    An argument that this creates a "good feeling" is not a morally, or rationally sound one. In many eras, both in the US and Canada, a scholarship for a graduate who is "white" would have created a very good feeling among many attendees, and a subsequent warm feeling towards BB - but I hardly think this a good justification. However, from a business perspective, you may be correct, however, let's be clear, you are justifying an inherently sexist action, based on the advancement of a corporations image - and therefore sales. I find that troubling.
    LoganSix likes this.
    05-15-13 07:45 AM
  12. Rezia's Avatar
    LoganSix and richardat,

    Everyone has strong opinions when it comes to affirmative action. And you can adopt the position that best suits you. That's perfectly fine.

    A few points:

    1. The women getting these scholarships will be working for them. They need the marks for the scholarship. No one is handing them something for nothing.

    2. Sometimes men are given academic advantages in a similar way. At McMaster medical school, they adopted an online admission evaluation method that favors men because medicine has been a female dominated field in the past.

    3. There is NOTHING bizarre about bringing up Marie Curie in a discussion about women in science. She was seriously cool. If you're interested, you definitely ought to check out the book Radioactive: Marie and Pierre Curie by Lauren Redniss. It's a great read.

    Posted via CB10
    05-15-13 10:45 AM
  13. LoganSix's Avatar
    1. The women getting these scholarships will be working for them. They need the marks for the scholarship. No one is handing them something for nothing.
    But, they are getting something for being a woman and not just being qualified, regardless of gender. If the scholarship was open to everyone equally, then I wouldn't have an issue with it.

    3. There is NOTHING bizarre about bringing up Marie Curie in a discussion about women in science. She was seriously cool. If you're interested, you definitely ought to check out the book Radioactive: Marie and Pierre Curie by Lauren Redniss. It's a great read.

    Posted via CB10
    That point wasn't about women in STEM, but women being CEO's and having a family, which was the odd part of the given illustration.
    05-15-13 11:20 AM

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